Need a Sim-Racing Favor...

RAS'rs, Please post any links you are aware of that discuss the use of racing simulators by professional race drivers for practice and training for real-world racing. I'm scheduled to appear on the Auto Sport Radio Show in Indianapolis next Tuesday night, Feb. 20. The topic to be discussed in sim- racing. This web-radio show reportedly gets over 1.5 million downloads each month. Their web site is http://www.autosportradio.com in case you want to check it out. They get some big-name guests from time to time. The audience are mostly real-world race fans I suppose. I want to explain about sim-racing in general. Part of that is the growing story of how many professional race drivers use racing simulators to practice and train for real racing. I'd like to brush up on published reports of professional racers using racing simulators. For those of you in the Indianapolis area, the radio show takes place in a sports bar on the west side of town. Look at their web site for details on the location. I'm planning to set up the simulator shown on my web site http://www.ultraforcesim.com at the show. Please stop by and give the UltraForce GS-1 a try! Thanks, Pat Dotson

On Feb 15, 9:37 am, [email hidden] wrote: > RAS'rs, > > Please post any links you are aware of that discuss the use of racing > simulators by professional race drivers for practice and training for > real-world racing. Professional being defined as people who get paid to race, or by people who spend a lot of money to sim race? If the latter then this might count: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/racing/02/14/henry.partnership.ap/index.html?eref=si_motorsports

> how many professional race drivers use racing simulators to practice > and train for real racing. I've read a few posts at race sim central forums, but nothing official. Maybe there's an article in a magazine. From what I've read, the drivers use simulations for learning tracks and braking points, using both PC based and console based games. This would indicate that the accuracy of the physics isn't as important as the accuracy of the track. It's hard to know how many drivers use racing games for entertainment as opposed to a tool for learning tracks. I've never heard of any driver claiming that any game would teach proper real world driving techniques, mostly because the real world methods rely on the forces felt by a driver, something a simulator can't reproduce.

Jeff Reid wrote: > I've never heard of any driver claiming that any game would teach proper > real world driving techniques, mostly because the real world methods > rely on the forces felt by a driver, something a simulator can't reproduce. Read the last para in the original post...

Jeff Reid wrote:

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>>how many professional race drivers use racing simulators to practice >>and train for real racing. > > > I've read a few posts at race sim central forums, but nothing official. > Maybe there's an article in a magazine. > > From what I've read, the drivers use simulations for learning tracks > and braking points, using both PC based and console based games. > This would indicate that the accuracy of the physics isn't as important > as the accuracy of the track.

Hmm, accurate brake and tire physics are not important for training the braking points, then... okay! ;) l8er ronny

Here are a couple of news stories I found on YouTube. Interesting stuff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVjqNSAHESw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bldERmoLfI When I said "professional drivers", I mean that I'm interested in drivers at the top levels of racing. Jacques Villanueve/Dale Jr./AJ Allmendinger types. Mainly, I wanted to refresh my memory on the Denny Hamlin story. The "Talladega BR" stuff in the ESPN story on YouTube is good too. Pat Dotson On Feb 15, 9:37 am, [email hidden] wrote:

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> RAS'rs, > > Please post any links you are aware of that discuss the use of racing > simulators by professional race drivers for practice and training for > real-world racing. > > I'm scheduled to appear on the Auto Sport Radio Show in Indianapolis > next Tuesday night, Feb. 20. The topic to be discussed in sim- > racing. This web-radio show reportedly gets over 1.5 million > downloads each month. Their web site ishttp://www.autosportradio.com > in case you want to check it out. They get some big-name guests from > time to time. > > The audience are mostly real-world race fans I suppose. I want to > explain about sim-racing in general. Part of that is the growing > story of how many professional race drivers use racing simulators to > practice and train for real racing. I'd like to brush up on published > reports of professional racers using racing simulators. > > For those of you in the Indianapolis area, the radio show takes place > in a sports bar on the west side of town. Look at their web site for > details on the location. I'm planning to set up the simulator shown > on my web sitehttp://www.ultraforcesim.comat the show. Please stop > by and give the UltraForce GS-1 a try! > > Thanks, > > Pat Dotson

On 18 Feb 2007 14:57:31 -0800, [email hidden] wrote: >When I said "professional drivers", I mean that I'm interested in >drivers at the top levels of racing. Jacques Villanueve I do recall something about Jacques Villeneuve using GP2 or GP3 to learn tracks he'd never raced on before and being very familiar with them when he actually jumped into the car and hit the real track. It was widely repoted at the time and I can't be arsed searching for it, I'm sure google would bring something up if you searched there. Cheers, Rod.

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 18:59:57 +1100, Rod <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>On 18 Feb 2007 14:57:31 -0800, [email hidden] wrote: > >>When I said "professional drivers", I mean that I'm interested in >>drivers at the top levels of racing. Jacques Villanueve > >I do recall something about Jacques Villeneuve using GP2 or GP3 >to learn tracks he'd never raced on before and being very >familiar with them when he actually jumped into the car and >hit the real track. > >It was widely repoted at the time and I can't be arsed searching >for it, I'm sure google would bring something up if you searched >there.

Oh, was mentioned in the youtube video that I watched after I posted the msg. :\ Cheers, Rod.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > The audience are mostly real-world race fans I suppose. I want to > explain about sim-racing in general. Part of that is the growing > story of how many professional race drivers use racing simulators to > practice and train for real racing. I'd like to brush up on published > reports of professional racers using racing simulators. > Thanks, > > Pat Dotson

I actually think it's kind of silly when there are claims that real life drivers train and learn tracks with simulators. I've read quotes from F1 drivers who said they can learn a track in a dozen laps. I've never raced at Silverstone, but I have learned a kart layout in about the same amount of time. What good would a simulator do me if that's all it takes? This combined with the absence of g-forces/fear of injury/death/destruction of the car makes auto simulators pretty useless as a training tool (iRacing is blowing smoke). -- David G Fisher

On 22 Feb, 21:58, "Dave F" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > The audience are mostly real-world race fans I suppose. I want to > > explain about sim-racing in general. Part of that is the growing > > story of how many professional race drivers use racing simulators to > > practice and train for real racing. I'd like to brush up on published > > reports of professional racers using racing simulators. > > Thanks, > > > Pat Dotson > > I actually think it's kind of silly when there are claims that real life > drivers train and learn tracks with simulators. > > I've read quotes from F1 drivers who said they can learn a track in a dozen > laps. I've never raced at Silverstone, but I have learned a kart layout in > about the same amount of time. What good would a simulator do me if that's > all it takes? > > This combined with the absence of g-forces/fear of injury/death/destruction > of the car makes auto simulators pretty useless as a training tool (iRacing > is blowing smoke). > > -- > David G Fisher

Id say the largest thing a proper sim can teach you is race craft, driving around cars with limited vision in a sim is a great aid to real world racing, at least thats what i found. You can spend hours and days in simulators racing others, and that experience is generally too expensive in the real world. Id also say it doesnt hurt to have an accurate track in a sim when it comes to learning it, that 10 lap learning curve can be lowered to 8 ;) pez

The show went really well. The audio and video is archived at: http://www.autosportradio.com/show_archives.html On Feb 22, 4:58 pm, "Dave F" <[email hidden]> wrote: > I actually think it's kind of silly when there are claims that real life > drivers train and learn tracks with simulators. Even when the drivers themselves make the claims? Check out the ESPN story on youtube. The link is in an earlier post in this thread. > I've read quotes from F1 drivers who said they can learn a track in a dozen > laps. I've never raced at Silverstone, but I have learned a kart layout in > about the same amount of time. What good would a simulator do me if that's > all it takes? Depends on what you mean by "learn". I don't believe that any human being is capable of turning a competitive lap time on an unknown track in ten laps. Can you get to the point where you know which way the next turn goes? Probably. Can you go through every turn at 10/10ths? No way. I don't think hundreds of laps in a sim will get you to 10/10ths in 10 laps either, but I absolutely believe it will get you there faster. > This combined with the absence of g-forces/fear of injury/death/destruction > of the car makes auto simulators pretty useless as a training tool (iRacing > is blowing smoke). I disagree. Apparently so do a lot of other people including some professional race drivers. This is a silly debate topic. Militaries and commercial airlines spend billions on flight simulation training for their pilots - the FAA requires it. Are they blowing smoke? If simulation is good enough to help train a pilot in control of a billion dollar aircraft, or in control of hundreds of lives, it's good enough to help teach a guy drive a car. Pat Dotson

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> The show went really well. The audio and video is archived at: > > http://www.autosportradio.com/show_archives.html > > On Feb 22, 4:58 pm, "Dave F" <[email hidden]> wrote: >> I actually think it's kind of silly when there are claims that real life >> drivers train and learn tracks with simulators. > > Even when the drivers themselves make the claims? Check out the ESPN > story on youtube. The link is in an earlier post in this thread.

A relative hadful out of how many?

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>> I've read quotes from F1 drivers who said they can learn a track in a >> dozen >> laps. I've never raced at Silverstone, but I have learned a kart layout >> in >> about the same amount of time. What good would a simulator do me if >> that's >> all it takes? > > Depends on what you mean by "learn". I don't believe that any human > being is capable of turning a competitive lap time on an unknown track > in ten laps. Can you get to the point where you know which way the > next turn goes? Probably. Can you go through every turn at > 10/10ths? No way.

Amazing then how these F1 drivers can go out for the first time on a brand new track on a Thursday, and by Sunday (less than 100 laps later) are running at 10/10ths.

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> I don't think hundreds of laps in a sim will get you to 10/10ths in 10 > laps either, but I absolutely believe it will get you there faster. > >> This combined with the absence of g-forces/fear of >> injury/death/destruction >> of the car makes auto simulators pretty useless as a training tool >> (iRacing >> is blowing smoke). > > I disagree. Apparently so do a lot of other people including some > professional race drivers. > > This is a silly debate topic. Militaries and commercial airlines > spend billions on flight simulation training for their pilots - the > FAA requires it. Are they blowing smoke? If simulation is good > enough to help train a pilot in control of a billion dollar aircraft, > or in control of hundreds of lives, it's good enough to help teach a > guy drive a car. > > Pat Dotson

Different things are being simulated by much different simulators. Can sex with an incredibly beautiful woman be simulated anywhere close to the real thing? No, and car simulators are still far from giving us the feel of the real thing as well. I love auto sim racing as much as anyone, but i'm not fooling myself. In 50 years I think we'll be there. -- David G Fisher

"Dave F" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > I've read quotes from F1 drivers who said they can learn a track in a > dozen laps. I've never raced at Silverstone, but I have learned a kart > layout in about the same amount of time. What good would a simulator do me > if that's all it takes? > Obvious bullshit claim to some sort of alien superiority over everyone else - and an attempt to psych out other drivers. And maybe impress their employers/sponsors! Not to mention that most, if not all, F1 teams have had their own sims for years now anyway, so maybe 10 laps to recognise the differences from the sim. In this respect simming is exactly the same as the real deal - do you know any simmers who have done 500 laps at a given track yet did their fastest lap on lap 10? Total bullshit.

"Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:45dfcde9$0$1153$[email hidden]...

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> > "Dave F" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> >> I've read quotes from F1 drivers who said they can learn a track in a >> dozen laps. I've never raced at Silverstone, but I have learned a kart >> layout in about the same amount of time. What good would a simulator do >> me if that's all it takes? >> > > Obvious bullshit claim to some sort of alien superiority over everyone > else - and an attempt to psych out other drivers. And maybe impress their > employers/sponsors! Not to mention that most, if not all, F1 teams have > had their own sims for years now anyway, so maybe 10 laps to recognise the > differences from the sim. > > In this respect simming is exactly the same as the real deal - do you > know any simmers who have done 500 laps at a given track yet did their > fastest lap on lap 10? Total bullshit.

"Learn" the track in a dozen laps, not master. As I said in another post, F1 drivers can run their first laps on a new new track on Thursday, and be running at 100% by Sunday's race start. Less than 100 laps of practice. What good is one of our simulators going to do them? -- David G Fisher

"Dave F" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:45dfcde9$0$1153$[email hidden]... >> >> "Dave F" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:[email hidden]... >>> >>> I've read quotes from F1 drivers who said they can learn a track in a >>> dozen laps. I've never raced at Silverstone, but I have learned a kart >>> layout in about the same amount of time. What good would a simulator do >>> me if that's all it takes? >>> >> >> Obvious bullshit claim to some sort of alien superiority over everyone >> else - and an attempt to psych out other drivers. And maybe impress their >> employers/sponsors! Not to mention that most, if not all, F1 teams have >> had their own sims for years now anyway, so maybe 10 laps to recognise >> the differences from the sim. >> >> In this respect simming is exactly the same as the real deal - do you >> know any simmers who have done 500 laps at a given track yet did their >> fastest lap on lap 10? Total bullshit. > > "Learn" the track in a dozen laps, not master. > > As I said in another post, F1 drivers can run their first laps on a new > new track on Thursday, and be running at 100% by Sunday's race start. Less > than 100 laps of practice. > > What good is one of our simulators going to do them? >

Well if it's a Tilke track, no wonder. They're all the same anyway! ;-) Never drove F1 of course, but I used to do quite a bit of two-wheeled racing back in my enjoyably misspent youth, and some karting as well. I had never been into computer gaming, but the first time I tried a PC sim I was really surprised at how much of the thought processes were the same as the real thing. And I think that's the value really; the same way golfers and tennis players practice endlessly to make their actions second nature, other activities use simulations when practice is limited for whatever reason. Best example might be astronauts; don't get to do a lot of that for real, so you simulate the hell out of it. Dogfighting also comes to mind. As does the recent collaboration between Marangoni and the nKPro folks for the Trento Bondone hillclimb; you can drive those open roads all you want, but you're severely limited in how many times you get to wail up them at full chat in an Osella PA-21. Do it a zillion times in a sim to get the rhythm down and you pretty much WILL go quicker. Pretty cool 3D model of the climb, btw, at: http://www.youtube.com./watch?v=WpgUz-OHr_A. Only time I'd seen that one before was during the Giro d'Italia! I don't race for real anymore, but sims have taught me a lot that I wish I'd known back in the day; it's a question of studying the science of racing and approaching it from a technical perspective, plus getting a lot of seat time trying various things. And the practice of running in traffic is great for helping you maintain focus and positional awareness through an event. Is it as good as the real thing? Nope, but it's way more accessible and enables even well-funded pros to do it more than they would otherwise. I recall seeing video recenty of Alonso in McLaren's proprietary sim, and if Sir Ron thinks it's valuable enough to spend God knows how much they dropped on that setup, I'm not arguing. SB

[email hidden] wrote: > The show went really well. The audio and video is archived at: > > http://www.autosportradio.com/show_archives.html Nice one Pat. Shame they didn't show any footage of the seat. (i.e. pan the camera to where the interviewer was pointing!) I thought it went well, I wasn't sure how sim racing was going to be perceived at the start of the interview but you handled it very well and it seemed a very fair interview to me. Cheers Tony

"Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:axYDh.6646$[email hidden]...

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> [email hidden] wrote: >> The show went really well. The audio and video is archived at: >> >> http://www.autosportradio.com/show_archives.html > > Nice one Pat. Shame they didn't show any footage of the seat. (i.e. pan > the camera to where the interviewer was pointing!) > > I thought it went well, I wasn't sure how sim racing was going to be > perceived at the start of the interview but you handled it very well and > it seemed a very fair interview to me. > > Cheers > Tony

Yeah, well done Pat. Good to see sim racing growing a bit of a face! :) PS - did you help that old fella with his email? LOL.

On Feb 25, 1:09 am, "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > [email hidden] wrote: > >> The show went really well. The audio and video is archived at: > > >>http://www.autosportradio.com/show_archives.html > > > Nice one Pat. Shame they didn't show any footage of the seat. (i.e. pan > > the camera to where the interviewer was pointing!) > > Yeah, well done Pat. Good to see sim racing growing a bit of a face! :)

Thanks guys! I've gotten several nice emails about the interview. My wife listened to the show from home and was also complimentary :) Don Kay has been around Indy forever I guess. I'm sure he didn't know quite what to think of me or sim-racing (though as he described he had seen it before). The way this show came about is through a fellow sim- racer named Chad Pierce who is a regular at Don's show. When Chad first saw the information about my G-seat, he contacted me and suggested I go on the show. He is the one who helped set up my appearance. I think Don also didn't know how his audience would react. I think he wasn't expecting it to amount to much. He seemed surprised when everyone in the place was very attentive. He even commented on that during the first break - that people were interested and paying attention. They are used to seeing some big names on the show. Last week's guests were scheduled to be Sarah Fisher and Tomas Scheckter (that show was cancelled due to blizzard conditions). Anyway, Don was a lot more friendly after the show than before :) The most interesting person to try the simulator that night was a former Indycar driver. While other people were trying the simulator, I kept hearing people in the crowd saying "put Eldon in there!". I didn't know who Eldon was. Turns out, his name is Eldon Rasmussen, and he qualified for and raced in three Indy 500's in the '70's. It was cool seeing him drive the simulator. When other people got into the simulator they would just floor the gas and usually spin. Eldon did his first lap around IMS in 1st gear! He took about 10 laps getting up to speed. He probably drove about 40 laps, and was very smooth. I didn't think to check his lap times - wish I would have. The other people were really into it too. There was a crowd watching all evening while people took turns. Everyone was cheering and really enjoying it. It was a pretty cool evening. Several Sim-racers were there. I wish more could have come! Pat Dotson