[NR2003/RASCAR] Superspeedway restrictor plate driving (bit long; question at end)

You might say I'm a slow learner for, indeed, given the amount of time I've been following NASCAR on TV and playing the Papyrus NR series, it took me a long time to come to this realisation, but I finally caught on : the "fatal" corner exit push one experiences at tracks like Talladega and Daytona when running restricted are not a result of the <fast> or <jasper> setup, nor is it a product of having less air pushing the nose down by following another car closely (though that is a factor, it's not big enough to "eat the wall"). No, the "graveyard push" is a result of getting behind on one's steering. The spark that triggered this realisation was DW's comment at the Talladega race : "If you get behind on your steering, that bad boy will whip right from under ya!", after a driver lost it in a "push-loose" incident an spun out. Obviously, I know I'm doing 190MPH+ at these tracks and I know it's important to anticipate my control actions as the "latency" of the nerve system starts to be a factor at these speeds, but on plate tracks it doesn't feel like you're going all that fast *and*, in a draft, it's hard to see far enough ahead to "lead" the car. With the AI at anywhere near a competitive setting I used to not be able to keep "in" the pack because I had to back off regularly to combat massive push and only the AI's clairvoyance kept me from creating massive pile-ups. At the back of a draft, however, I could hang on unless things bunched up I and I got close to the car in front. Odd that it didn't occur to me before that responding to the car ahead instead of running my own line was getting me into trouble in the first place. So I tried with kite view and, once I got used to it, it was a lot easier to drive the outside lane because my view wasn't obstructed by the other cars anymore. This doesn't solve my problem because I don't want to use that view in online competition, but at least I've realised what I'm doing wrong. This is where I get to the question part (thanks for sticking with me)... I've been practising getting my timing through the turns right and I am getting better at it, but I can't do it consistently. Especially in the high line, so my question is: how do you "hit your marks" consistently? Perhaps the more experienced SS racers can shed some light on this? Jan. =---

In article <f_boa.52679$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> This is where I get to the question part (thanks for sticking with me)... > I've been practising getting my timing through the turns right and I am > getting better at it, but I can't do it consistently. Especially in the high > line, so my question is: how do you "hit your marks" consistently? > > Perhaps the more experienced SS racers can shed some light on this? >

Practice and concentration. The car won't drive itself, no matter how big and wide the track is.

"John Simmons" wrote... > <snip> > Practice and concentration. The car won't drive > itself, no matter how big and wide the track is. True, but are you saying it's a matter droning around the track until the turn in points and such are ingraved on one's subconcience, i.e. there are no reference points whatsoever? Jan. =---

In article <ledoa.52820$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> "John Simmons" wrote... > > <snip> > > Practice and concentration. The car won't drive > > itself, no matter how big and wide the track is. > > True, but are you saying it's a matter droning around the track until the > turn in points and such are ingraved on one's subconcience, i.e. there are > no reference points whatsoever?

Kinda. Although not as extreme, it's kind of like learning how to complete a lap at Nurburgring in GPL. You just gotta know how to do it, and the only way you can learn it is by doing it over and over. I'm sure there are visual cues you can use, but the visual cue *I* use might eb complete bass-ackwards fron someone else's. I have to be honest that I don't really know where I turn in. I never really thought much about it. I don't think it's really a tangible "spot on the track".

When you are on the correct line into turn 3 you should *feel* the hump and then the car will *settle* into the banking and you will *feel* the car pull down into the corner, then smile and relax and the car will almost drive itself around the corner :) It is more of a fade into the corner than a turn. Coming out of the tri-oval into turn one is the same though you don't feel it as much. This all gets whacky in traffic, I get buffeted around like crazy anytime I am near other cars so it is very hard to make that work. I prefer the highline in traffic on the corners as I don't take anyone else into the wall with me when I do get behind on the steering. The more laps I make the less time I spend in the wall hehe, wwe will see what happens in about an hour here. -- McWhom ----------------------------------------------------------------- "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... : In article <ledoa.52820$[email hidden]>, : [email hidden] says... : > "John Simmons" wrote... : > > <snip> : > > Practice and concentration. The car won't drive : > > itself, no matter how big and wide the track is. : > : > True, but are you saying it's a matter droning around the track until the : > turn in points and such are ingraved on one's subconcience, i.e. there are : > no reference points whatsoever? : : Kinda. Although not as extreme, it's kind of like learning how to : complete a lap at Nurburgring in GPL. You just gotta know how to do : it, and the only way you can learn it is by doing it over and over. : I'm sure there are visual cues you can use, but the visual cue *I* : use might eb complete bass-ackwards fron someone else's. : : I have to be honest that I don't really know where I turn in. I : never really thought much about it. I don't think it's really a : tangible "spot on the track". :

Getting behind will certainly get you into trouble, especially with the somewhat 'laggy' force-feedback in Nascar Racing. If it wasn't for the overly-strong (and non-adjustable centering spring in NR - c'mon papy!), I would run the Sim with FF off. Now, I just turn it way, way down as the best compromise I can come up with. However, at least in NR2003, the setups are also playing a major role in it. That's easily proven by running a race with the Fast or Jasper setup, and then running another with the excellent Daytona setup that Tim posted. It has NONE of the nose push-over problems that the Fast and Jasper setups do. IMHO, Tim has managed to get the shocks _just right_ to deal with that bump coming out of turn 4, which we never had to contend with before. I think that bump has just as much to do with the problem as aero does. It unloads the suspension and Tim's setup manages to control that far better than the Fast or Jasper setups do. You'll notice the problem doesn't really exist on the exit of turn 2. -Larry "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:f_boa.52679$[email hidden]... > You might say I'm a slow learner for, indeed, given the amount of timeI've > been following NASCAR on TV and playing the Papyrus NR series, it took mea > long time to come to this realisation, but I finally caught on : the"fatal" > corner exit push one experiences at tracks like Talladega and Daytona when > running restricted are not a result of the <fast> or <jasper> setup, noris > it a product of having less air pushing the nose down by following another > car closely (though that is a factor, it's not big enough to "eat the > wall"). No, the "graveyard push" is a result of getting behind on one's > steering. > > The spark that triggered this realisation was DW's comment at theTalladega

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> race : "If you get behind on your steering, that bad boy will whip right > from under ya!", after a driver lost it in a "push-loose" incident an spun > out. > > Obviously, I know I'm doing 190MPH+ at these tracks and I know it's > important to anticipate my control actions as the "latency" of the nerve > system starts to be a factor at these speeds, but on plate tracks it

doesn't > feel like you're going all that fast *and*, in a draft, it's hard to seefar > enough ahead to "lead" the car. > > With the AI at anywhere near a competitive setting I used to not be ableto > keep "in" the pack because I had to back off regularly to combat massive > push and only the AI's clairvoyance kept me from creating massivepile-ups. > At the back of a draft, however, I could hang on unless things bunched upI > and I got close to the car in front. Odd that it didn't occur to me before > that responding to the car ahead instead of running my own line wasgetting > me into trouble in the first place. > > So I tried with kite view and, once I got used to it, it was a lot easierto > drive the outside lane because my view wasn't obstructed by the other cars > anymore. This doesn't solve my problem because I don't want to use thatview > in online competition, but at least I've realised what I'm doing wrong. > > This is where I get to the question part (thanks for sticking with me)... > I've been practising getting my timing through the turns right and I am > getting better at it, but I can't do it consistently. Especially in thehigh

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> line, so my question is: how do you "hit your marks" consistently? > > Perhaps the more experienced SS racers can shed some light on this? > > Jan. > =--- > >

start racing SS on papy open servers. a lot. you will learn every possible line and gain valuable emergency management skills. you will not learn how to slow properly to avoid rearending the car ahead of you on a caution lap, and furthermore you will learn how to not slow properly properly. Congrat's Larry. "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ledoa.52820$[email hidden]...

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> "John Simmons" wrote... > > <snip> > > Practice and concentration. The car won't drive > > itself, no matter how big and wide the track is. > > True, but are you saying it's a matter droning around the track until the > turn in points and such are ingraved on one's subconcience, i.e. there are > no reference points whatsoever? > > Jan. > =--- > >

Thanks, Jon :) Larry "jon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:oEgoa.40630$[email hidden]... > start racing SS on papy open servers. > a lot. > you will learn every possible line and gain valuable emergency management > skills. > you will not learn how to slow properly to avoid rearending the car aheadof

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> you on a caution lap, and furthermore you will learn how to not slow > properly properly. > Congrat's Larry. > > > > "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:ledoa.52820$[email hidden]... > > "John Simmons" wrote... > > > <snip> > > > Practice and concentration. The car won't drive > > > itself, no matter how big and wide the track is. > > > > True, but are you saying it's a matter droning around the track until

the > > turn in points and such are ingraved on one's subconcience, i.e. thereare

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> > no reference points whatsoever? > > > > Jan. > > =--- > > > > > > >

On Sat, 19 Apr 2003 13:15:55 GMT, "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>You might say I'm a slow learner for, indeed, given the amount of time I've >been following NASCAR on TV and playing the Papyrus NR series, it took me a >long time to come to this realisation, but I finally caught on : the "fatal" >corner exit push one experiences at tracks like Talladega and Daytona when >running restricted are not a result of the <fast> or <jasper> setup, nor is >it a product of having less air pushing the nose down by following another >car closely (though that is a factor, it's not big enough to "eat the >wall"). No, the "graveyard push" is a result of getting behind on one's >steering.

It's because the cars are too fast. If you up the temperature to 100 or 110 so that the cars drive their real life speeds (i.e. 190 or less in a draft), holding a line in the turns is a breeze. At 70 degrees 0 wind or colder it's quite possible to pull corner speeds in a draft that necessitate lifting if you care about tire wear. Jason

Jason Moyer wrote:

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> On Sat, 19 Apr 2003 13:15:55 GMT, "Jan Verschueren" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >You might say I'm a slow learner for, indeed, given the amount of time I've > >been following NASCAR on TV and playing the Papyrus NR series, it took me a > >long time to come to this realisation, but I finally caught on : the "fatal" > >corner exit push one experiences at tracks like Talladega and Daytona when > >running restricted are not a result of the <fast> or <jasper> setup, nor is > >it a product of having less air pushing the nose down by following another > >car closely (though that is a factor, it's not big enough to "eat the > >wall"). No, the "graveyard push" is a result of getting behind on one's > >steering. > > It's because the cars are too fast. If you up the temperature to 100 > or 110 so that the cars drive their real life speeds (i.e. 190 or less > in a draft), holding a line in the turns is a breeze. At 70 degrees 0 > wind or colder it's quite possible to pull corner speeds in a draft > that necessitate lifting if you care about tire wear. > > Jason

Hmm that raises a question Jason: is the listed AIR temperature also equivalent to the TRACK temperature? Obviously the track will be much hotter (esp. on a sunny day), but does Papy model this? John DiFool -- ============================================ Reach heaven far too high ============================================

"John DiFool" wrote... > <snip> > Hmm that raises a question Jason: is the listed > AIR temperature also equivalent to the TRACK > temperature? Obviously the track will be much hotter > (esp. on a sunny day), but does Papy model this? Good question... deserves it's own thread. Jan. =---

I think track temperature is taken into account. I am generally faster at Bristol Night than at the day track, and at the road courses I am about a second slower using clear weather than I am when using cloudy weather at the same temperature. "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:S8Eoa.54444$[email hidden]...

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> > Good question... deserves it's own thread. > > Jan. > =--- > >

On Sun, 20 Apr 2003 21:13:04 -0400, "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I think track temperature is taken into account. I am generally faster at >Bristol Night than at the day track, and at the road courses I am about a >second slower using clear weather than I am when using cloudy weather at the >same temperature. Cloudy weather is like putting a turbocharger on your car. Seriously, I have to question whether the effect of cloud cover isn't seriously blown of proportion horsepower wise. I also wonder if a restricted engine would really be picking up 5-10mph going from sunny conditions to cloudy or hot conditions to cold. I would think that the horsepower would be limited to about the same extent in either situation. Sometime when I have time I suppose I'll create some replays in different weather conditions with different chassis types and see how the horsepower curves differ in n2003ra. Jason

The push at Daytona a Talladege is a product of bank angle. The car is in a certain state of lateral acceleration a a tight corner radius at 33 degrees of banking. As the bank falls away the cornering acceleration stays constant, but with less banking to hold the car the lateral acceleration requirement from the tires shoots way up for just a brief instant until the need for cornering diminishes. Nevertheless, the cornering requirement for the tires is under the limit (usually, unless you car really sucks) in the center of the corner at Daytona and Talladega, as the banking falls off the lateral acceleration exceeds briefly what the tires can produce, exposing the actual limit handling balance of the car. Most individuals who try to fix this problem with conventional wisdom of corner exit fixes screws up bad. This is because the car is actually going from a state of less roll in the the corners to one of more roll exiting the corners. Opposite of what is usually the case at most tracks. These effects can be seen especially at Daytona as tire grip falls off on a long run. If anybody wants to know why Lil E and the DEI boys are fast at Daytona and Talladega, I think you might be suprised to hear that it has a lot to do with their chassis set-up (rather than the typical aero and motor explainations that are given). The guy who can reduce understeer on corner exit at Daytona is going to kill everybody in the race. The understeer or lack of grip on corner exits raises the slip angles of all the tires creating more cornering drag. Any drag vectors when at a speedway hurts lap time.

"JazzyJac" wrote: > The push at Daytona a Talladege is a product of bank angle. The car > is in a certain state of lateral acceleration a a tight corner radius > at 33 degrees of banking. As the bank falls away the cornering > acceleration stays constant, but with less banking to hold the car the > lateral acceleration requirement from the tires shoots way up for just > a brief instant until the need for cornering diminishes. < Lots of excellent information snipped!> Sir, I do not know where you're "coming from" - but please do keep the information coming, as this is excellent stuff! - Very learningful too. Thanks! -- ed_ (who just "saw the light"!) http://rascar.racesimcentral.com

You can compensate a lot for the off corner push by driving a slightly higher line in 1 and 3 and drifting down very low into 2 and 4. Sort of a late apex. Of course if you're in the high line and someone is in your way... I have found that softening the RF spring helps as does reducing wedge. Am I going down JazzyJac's unconventional path here by accident? What really puzzles me, though, about this track/setup is that I am just SLOW. I just got the game, but still. Against the AI at 97%, with the Jasper setup and adding some tape, I can barely keep up with the tail end of the pack. I made the gear a little taller and this seems to help it suck up some. Pointers? When I read about folks being able to go to the front from 1/2 way back in the field in 8 laps vs. the AI at 100% it makes me want to watch a movie. "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<3ec8ee69$[email hidden]>...

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> "JazzyJac" wrote: > > > The push at Daytona a Talladege is a product of bank angle. The car > > is in a certain state of lateral acceleration a a tight corner radius > > at 33 degrees of banking. As the bank falls away the cornering > > acceleration stays constant, but with less banking to hold the car the > > lateral acceleration requirement from the tires shoots way up for just > > a brief instant until the need for cornering diminishes. > > < Lots of excellent information snipped!> > > Sir, > > I do not know where you're "coming from" - but please do keep the > information coming, as this is excellent stuff! - Very learningful too. > Thanks!