Just caught part of a TLC program called "Countdown to Danger". It's an
hour-long show and the first half analyzed Senna's fatal crash from 1994
at Imola.
Did anyone see the entire program? I saw the last half or so on the
crash. Also, does anybody know if it's on again? I checked the TV
Guide but couldn't see it. I'm in Canada...
A couple things they mentioned that I didn't know:
According to the black box data, the steering column broke on impact; it
was not the cause. Also, due to a prior accident, the safety car was
brought out which cooled the tires causing them to contract and thus
lowering the ride height. They said that sparks could be seen coming
out the back of Senna's car. Lastly, I thought he died instantly due to
a piece if metal piercing his helmet. They said that the right-front
tire hit him in the head and he died 4 hours later in hospital.
Figured I'd pass this along for anybody who's interested.
- EF
TLC documentary on Senna's fatal Imola crash
A TLC programme suggesting Senna's 1994 crash was caused by the car bottoming out on cold, low-pressure tyres after the safety car prompted discussion, and EldredP posted a download of it. Nick argued that the steering column failure was the real cause and that Williams had misled the court, while Malc and others defended the documentary's expert witnesses, leading to a debate about what court verdicts prove.
real motorsportoff-topic
Automated summary.
If it's the same program it was shown here in New Zealand. It was
apparently a sudden loss of downforce due to the car bottoming out on the
track in a bump as he entered the corner. He applied 18 degrees right hand
turn to catch the back end of the car but the car suddenly gain back it's
downforce and the 18 degree right hand steer drove the car off the track. I
understood it was the front wheel being jammed between the wall and his
head. Pit data showed he had steering on impact and thus the steering
column was broken due to the impact and did cause the crash.
Nigel
Enzo Ferrari <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (23 lines)
> > Just caught part of a TLC program called "Countdown to Danger". It's an > hour-long show and the first half analyzed Senna's fatal crash from 1994 > at Imola. > > Did anyone see the entire program? I saw the last half or so on the > crash. Also, does anybody know if it's on again? I checked the TV > Guide but couldn't see it. I'm in Canada... > > A couple things they mentioned that I didn't know: > > According to the black box data, the steering column broke on impact; it > was not the cause. Also, due to a prior accident, the safety car was > brought out which cooled the tires causing them to contract and thus > lowering the ride height. They said that sparks could be seen coming > out the back of Senna's car. Lastly, I thought he died instantly due to > a piece if metal piercing his helmet. They said that the right-front > tire hit him in the head and he died 4 hours later in hospital. > > Figured I'd pass this along for anybody who's interested. > > - EF >
"Enzo Ferrari" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> out the back of Senna's car. Lastly, I thought he died instantly due to
> a piece if metal piercing his helmet. They said that the right-front
> tire hit him in the head and he died 4 hours later in hospital.
>
The "suspension piece piercing the helmet" theory was based on a photo of
Senna's helmet with a neat, round hole at the forehead level. This was
actually just a normal vent hole which had lost its plastic plug.
"Stephen F." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:3ec1fabb$[email hidden]...
No, the suspension pierced his visor. The helmet makers said if it had hit
slightly
higher above the visor it would not have pierced the helmet.
Quoted text (12 lines)
> > "Enzo Ferrari" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > out the back of Senna's car. Lastly, I thought he died instantly due to > > a piece if metal piercing his helmet. They said that the right-front > > tire hit him in the head and he died 4 hours later in hospital. > > > > The "suspension piece piercing the helmet" theory was based on a photo of > Senna's helmet with a neat, round hole at the forehead level. This was > actually just a normal vent hole which had lost its plastic plug.I know this has been discussed in great length and from all aspects, but my
personal observation was that I could clearly see fairly severe sparks
coming out from underneath the car for a moment before it started going
straight instead of around the corner.
I've never joined the discussion before as I am aware that watching things
on TV certainly isn't anything compared to all the experts investigating the
case, but throughout all that's been said, I've always continued to believe
that the car simply bottomed out. Maybe Senna'd lowered the ride height a
lot, to be able to beat the at that time new and surprisingly fast
Schumacher, who knows.
Achim
"Enzo Ferrari" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (23 lines)
> > Just caught part of a TLC program called "Countdown to Danger". It's an > hour-long show and the first half analyzed Senna's fatal crash from 1994 > at Imola. > > Did anyone see the entire program? I saw the last half or so on the > crash. Also, does anybody know if it's on again? I checked the TV > Guide but couldn't see it. I'm in Canada... > > A couple things they mentioned that I didn't know: > > According to the black box data, the steering column broke on impact; it > was not the cause. Also, due to a prior accident, the safety car was > brought out which cooled the tires causing them to contract and thus > lowering the ride height. They said that sparks could be seen coming > out the back of Senna's car. Lastly, I thought he died instantly due to > a piece if metal piercing his helmet. They said that the right-front > tire hit him in the head and he died 4 hours later in hospital. > > Figured I'd pass this along for anybody who's interested. > > - EF >In article <[email hidden]>, Enzo Ferrari <[email hidden]> writes:
ftp://141.211.234.112/countdown_to_danger_senna_crash.zip
:-)
Eldred
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Quoted text (7 lines)
>Just caught part of a TLC program called "Countdown to Danger". It's an >hour-long show and the first half analyzed Senna's fatal crash from 1994 >at Imola. > >Did anyone see the entire program? I saw the last half or so on the >crash. Also, does anybody know if it's on again? I checked the TV >Guide but couldn't see it. I'm in Canada...>
> A couple things they mentioned that I didn't know:
>
> According to the black box data, the steering column broke on impact; it
> was not the cause.
Consistent with the photographs of said components that I have seen. In
these pics, they clearly show a fast and catastrophic fracture, evidenced
by a coarse and rough surface. A fatigue failure would have been much
smoother and consistant in texture.
>Also, due to a prior accident, the safety car was
> brought out which cooled the tires causing them to contract and thus
> lowering the ride height. They said that sparks could be seen coming
> out the back of Senna's car.
Remember we are still in the days of flat bottom cars here where ride
heights were critical within a milimetre or so. Another possibility put
forward was that a tyre might have been suffering with a slow puncture from
a shard of carbon following the startline crash. This might not have been
evident until the cars were back up to racing speed where a more rapid
failure could have occured.
Lastly, I thought he died instantly due to
> a piece if metal piercing his helmet. They said that the right-front
> tire hit him in the head and he died 4 hours later in hospital.
Photographs of his helmet show a hole where part of a suspension component
pierced it and went through his skull.
Sid Watkins who oversaw his immediate first aid later said that he believed
that Senna died at trackside in terms of brain death although he was kept
biologically alive on life support systems for a number of hours at
hospital. He was quoted as saying "Whilst assessing the extent of his
injuries, he let out a groaning sigh and then went very still and quiet.
This, I believe was when I realised that my friend Ayrton was no longer with
us".
MS
"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> In article <[email hidden]>, Enzo Ferrari <[email hidden]> writes:
>
> ftp://141.211.234.112/countdown_to_danger_senna_crash.zip
> :-)
Thanks!
Malc.
Ditto: Thanks!
- EF
EldredP ([email hidden]) wrote:
: In article <[email hidden]>, Enzo Ferrari <[email hidden]> writes:
: >Just caught part of a TLC program called "Countdown to Danger". It's an
: >hour-long show and the first half analyzed Senna's fatal crash from 1994
: >at Imola.
: >
: >Did anyone see the entire program? I saw the last half or so on the
: >crash. Also, does anybody know if it's on again? I checked the TV
: >Guide but couldn't see it. I'm in Canada...
: ftp://141.211.234.112/countdown_to_danger_senna_crash.zip
: :-)
: Eldred
: --
: Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
: GPLRank:-1.950
: MonsterRank: +305.145
: N2002 Rank:+17.59
: Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
: with experience...
: Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
"EldredP" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:[email hidden]...
> In article <[email hidden]>, Enzo Ferrari <[email hidden]>writes:
>
> ftp://141.211.234.112/countdown_to_danger_senna_crash.zip
> :-)
Now, that's what I call service. Muchas gracias. Downloading...
Best regards
Crash
In article <ba58gt$llc$06$[email hidden]>, "Joachim Blum"
<[email hidden]> writes:
Hey, I try to be helpful. Since I can't give any DRIVING tips<g>, I do what I
can...
:-)
You're welcome, guys. PedX is the person who sent me the file.
Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
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Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Quoted text (9 lines)
>"EldredP" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag >news:[email hidden]... >> In article <[email hidden]>, Enzo Ferrari <[email hidden]> >writes: >> >> ftp://141.211.234.112/countdown_to_danger_senna_crash.zip >> :-) > >Now, that's what I call service. Muchas gracias. Downloading..."EldredP" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:[email hidden]...
do what I
> can...
> :-)
> You're welcome, guys. PedX is the person who sent me the file.
Sh*t! Unfortunately the connection broke up after 56% and my ftp program
(which is capable of resume) can't reconnect. Eldred, could you please
fix that?
Best regards
Crash
Quoted text (14 lines)
> In article <ba58gt$llc$06$[email hidden]>, "Joachim Blum" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >"EldredP" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > >news:[email hidden]... > >> In article <[email hidden]>, Enzo Ferrari <[email hidden]> > >writes: > >> > >> ftp://141.211.234.112/countdown_to_danger_senna_crash.zip > >> :-) > > > >Now, that's what I call service. Muchas gracias. Downloading... > > Hey, I try to be helpful. Since I can't give any DRIVING tips<g>, IIn article <ba5nmm$b4n$03$[email hidden]>, "Joachim Blum"
<[email hidden]> writes:
>Sh*t! Unfortunately the connection broke up after 56% and my ftp program
>(which is capable of resume) can't reconnect. Eldred, could you please
>fix that?
Fix what? It's still up. I just tried to connect, and it works fine...
Eldred
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Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
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Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
"EldredP" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:[email hidden]...
> In article <ba5nmm$b4n$03$[email hidden]>, "Joachim Blum"
> <[email hidden]> writes:
>
> Fix what? It's still up. I just tried to connect, and it worksfine...
Ok, works again now. The glitch must have been on the long way between
my 'puter and your ftp. Let's hope I can get it complete this time ;).
Best regards
Crash
It no workie...
Larry
"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
you
> with experience...
> Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Quoted text (21 lines)
> In article <[email hidden]>, Enzo Ferrari <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Just caught part of a TLC program called "Countdown to Danger". It's an > >hour-long show and the first half analyzed Senna's fatal crash from 1994 > >at Imola. > > > >Did anyone see the entire program? I saw the last half or so on the > >crash. Also, does anybody know if it's on again? I checked the TV > >Guide but couldn't see it. I'm in Canada... > > ftp://141.211.234.112/countdown_to_danger_senna_crash.zip > :-) > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:-1.950 > MonsterRank: +305.145 > N2002 Rank:+17.59 > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beatsNot connecting here... :(
Larry
"Joachim Blum" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:ba8apu$uh5$05$[email hidden]...
Quoted text (14 lines)
> "EldredP" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <ba5nmm$b4n$03$[email hidden]>, "Joachim Blum" > > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > > Fix what? It's still up. I just tried to connect, and it works > fine... > > Ok, works again now. The glitch must have been on the long way between > my 'puter and your ftp. Let's hope I can get it complete this time ;). > > Best regards > Crash >Enzo Ferrari <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
> A couple things they mentioned that I didn't know:
> According to the black box data, the steering column broke on impact; it
> was not the cause.
That's still open to debate, because it's quite clear that the front
wheels were facing directly forwards w.r.t. the car, so the steering
wheel was either still attached and not turned, or not attached. You
can't tell the difference from the black box data, which records
steering input (zero anyway).
> Also, due to a prior accident, the safety car was
> brought out which cooled the tires causing them to contract and thus
> lowering the ride height.
That's entirely correct.
> They said that sparks could be seen coming
> out the back of Senna's car.
That's entirely false. The on-car camera on Schumacher's car shows NO
sparks, because at first it was thought that it might have been
suspension failure, so the footage from Schumacher's car was looked
at, which ruled that out, as a suspension failure would have made
sparks. There definitely were no sparks.
> Lastly, I thought he died instantly due to
> a piece if metal piercing his helmet. They said that the right-front
> tire hit him in the head and he died 4 hours later in hospital.
Well, yes and no. He was technically dead at the moment of impact, and
it was part of the broken suspension (still hanging off the detached
wheel) that pierced his visor, but it's an unwritten FIA rule that no
driver should die at the racetrack, so they kept him alive until they
got him to hospital, and let his family see him before they let him
go.
"Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Enzo Ferrari <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:<[email hidden]>...
> That's entirely false.
Care to back any of that up with some references?
I had always assumed the steering column was the root cause, but the TLC
program highlighted some interesting evidence that I hadn't seen before.
Plus I'd have thought something as obvious as whether there were sparks or
not should not even be up for dispute ;-)
Malc.
It finally came up. I just put the page in the background. It finally
popped up the download dialog about 5 minutes later :)
Larry
"Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:n_Pxa.30075$[email hidden]...
an
> > >hour-long show and the first half analyzed Senna's fatal crash from1994
Quoted text (9 lines)
> It no workie... > > Larry > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <[email hidden]>, Enzo Ferrari <[email hidden]> writes: > > > > >Just caught part of a TLC program called "Countdown to Danger". It'sQuoted text (22 lines)
> > >at Imola. > > > > > >Did anyone see the entire program? I saw the last half or so on the > > >crash. Also, does anybody know if it's on again? I checked the TV > > >Guide but couldn't see it. I'm in Canada... > > > > ftp://141.211.234.112/countdown_to_danger_senna_crash.zip > > :-) > > > > Eldred > > -- > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > GPLRank:-1.950 > > MonsterRank: +305.145 > > N2002 Rank:+17.59 > > > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats > you > > with experience... > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > >In article <n_Pxa.30075$[email hidden]>, "Larry" <[email hidden]>
writes:
>It no workie...
>
>Larry
WTF? I just tried it again. Started downloading, estimates 10 minutes to
download. Maybe something on your end?
Eldred
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Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Not my end :)
I finally got it. I just clicked on the link and let the window sit there.
It took about 5 minutes, but the download dialog finally appeared.
Larry
"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> In article <n_Pxa.30075$[email hidden]>, "Larry"<[email hidden]>
you
> with experience...
> Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Quoted text (17 lines)
> writes: > > >It no workie... > > > >Larry > > WTF? I just tried it again. Started downloading, estimates 10 minutes to > download. Maybe something on your end? > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPLRank:-1.950 > MonsterRank: +305.145 > N2002 Rank:+17.59 > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats"Malc" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<UmQxa.23820$[email hidden]>...
Hehe, did the program care to back it up? They didn't have the actual
footage, and the two guys they interviewed who know about F1 said the
steering column broke. Nobody actually backed up their theory about
tyre pressure (which is inherently faulty), only the narrator said it.
Note that 1) Williams F1 admitted at the trial that the steering
column may have been *partially* broken before the incident, and they
were the defendants, so to disregard that is pretty big.
2) There was one lap of green flag racing before they started the lap
on which Senna crashed. The tyre temps (and therefore pressures) were
much higher the second time through Tamburello than they would have
been the first time through, and the speeds would have been the same,
so why did Senna get through the first time when his car would have
been even closer to the ground? Why did everybody else make it through
without any problems? Why, before or since, has nobody had a problem
with tyre pressure and ride height?
3) F1 cars are designed to 'bottom-out' at high speed and still remain
perfectly balanced, otherwise it would be impossible to run at places
like Brazil where the 190mph start-finish straight/curve is bumpy as
hell, and there are scratches and marks all down the racetrack into
T1. Also, when an F1 car touches the ground, it scrapes it. It doesn't
bounce up in the air, losing all the rear end grip (as the program
said).
Quoted text (8 lines)
> "Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Enzo Ferrari <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:<[email hidden]>... > > > That's entirely false. > > Care to back any of that up with some references?"Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> "Malc" <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:<UmQxa.23820$[email hidden]>...
Yes, they used 'expert witnesses' views, and made a reasonable attempt to
explain the crash in layman terms. Are you an expert, an insider, or just
someone with an opinion? Your posts are written in such a way that they
suggest you believe know what you are talking about, except that you are
providing no evidence other than your own opinion on what happened.
If you are simply stating opinion, please say so, and whether or not your
opinion is actually based on personal expertise, or just what you read in
newspapers at the time.
Malc.
Quoted text (10 lines)
> > "Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > Enzo Ferrari <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:<[email hidden]>... > > > > > That's entirely false. > > > > Care to back any of that up with some references? > > Hehe, did the program care to back it up?
"Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> "Malc" <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:<UmQxa.23820$[email hidden]>...
Taken from the trial on autocourse
On the Falling tyre pressures after the safety car prosecutor Passarini
called
on Stefanini to give lap times.
"Senna, with a fully loaded car on a 2 pitstop strategy, clocked 1 min
24.887sec
on the sixth lap of the restarted race. That was a very good time," said
Stefanini,"only
two drivers bettered it - Damon Hill and Michael Schumacher - both on a 3
pitstop strategy
recored better times at the end of the race on lighter fuel loads "
"By the start of lap 7 the tyres were back at race pressure, on lap 6 with
the tyres at their
lowest pressure tamburello was taken flat out with no problems"
Quoted text (26 lines)
> > "Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > Enzo Ferrari <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:<[email hidden]>... > > > > > That's entirely false. > > > > Care to back any of that up with some references? > > Hehe, did the program care to back it up? They didn't have the actual > footage, and the two guys they interviewed who know about F1 said the > steering column broke. Nobody actually backed up their theory about > tyre pressure (which is inherently faulty), only the narrator said it. > > Note that 1) Williams F1 admitted at the trial that the steering > column may have been *partially* broken before the incident, and they > were the defendants, so to disregard that is pretty big. > > 2) There was one lap of green flag racing before they started the lap > on which Senna crashed. The tyre temps (and therefore pressures) were > much higher the second time through Tamburello than they would have > been the first time through, and the speeds would have been the same, > so why did Senna get through the first time when his car would have > been even closer to the ground? Why did everybody else make it through > without any problems? Why, before or since, has nobody had a problem > with tyre pressure and ride height?In article <1q%xa.33144$[email hidden]>, "Larry" <[email hidden]>
writes:
>Not my end :)
>
>I finally got it. I just clicked on the link and let the window sit there.
>It took about 5 minutes, but the download dialog finally appeared.
Ok, something in the middle(between you and the server).<g> It wasn't on my
end - everytime I tried it, the download started right away.
Eldred
--
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In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...
If the car bottoms out, it will cause a sudden decrease in the amount of
weight that is on the tires, since at the moment of impact with the
tarmac that weight is now being supported by the bottom side of the car.
This sudden change reduces the amount of traction between the tires and
the surface of the track. If the car was close to the limit of adhesion
before it bottomed out, this sudden change might be enough to cause it
to lose traction and slide off the course, as happened with Senna's car.
--
__________________________
Todd Walker
http://twalker.d2g.com
__________________________
Quoted text (8 lines)
> 3) F1 cars are designed to 'bottom-out' at high speed and still remain > perfectly balanced, otherwise it would be impossible to run at places > like Brazil where the 190mph start-finish straight/curve is bumpy as > hell, and there are scratches and marks all down the racetrack into > T1. Also, when an F1 car touches the ground, it scrapes it. It doesn't > bounce up in the air, losing all the rear end grip (as the program > said). >Todd Walker <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
That's a flawed explanation.
The car is physically not able to bottom out by itself. There is a
wooden plank on the bottom to measure wear, and if this is worn by
more than 1mm at the end of the race, the car is disqualified (1994
regulations). The suspension is therefore set up to allow this
clearance. The only way the car would bottom out is on a bump at high
speed.
If it was a bump, then the loss of grip from the tyres would not be
because the car was instantaneously touching the ground, it would be
because of the 'jump' the car experienced when it bounced off the
bump. Hitting a sudden bump would launch the car slightly, reducing
grip on all four wheels, especially taking into account the stiffness
of F1 suspension. This would make the car continue tangentially to the
corner (as happened with Senna), but the driver would instictively
turn the wheel into the corner, sensing this understeering effect. In
this situation, when the car 'landed' after the bump, it would either
continue around the corner as before, or it would snatch at the front
end and begin to spin to the left.
I say 'jump' and 'land' because the car would not become airborne in
this situation, considering the massive weight and downforce effect
(~2600Kg worth) on the car.
Assuming the steering column was intact, it is clear that Senna did
not steer, so the car would have continued moving tangentially after
it hit the bump. So that *could* be an explanation. Except...
1) Why did Senna not steer? He was braking furiously, the front wheels
were not locked, so why not steer? The first reaction of a driver to
an unexpected occurence is to try and steer, unless he is already
braking when the unexpected happens, at which point the first instinct
is to brake harder.
2) The bump required to cause this kind of loss of grip would have to
be massive (in F1 terms). At least measureable in centimetres.
3) The bump did not grow or shrink throughout the race, so every other
car on the racetrack would have the same effect happen to them. His
tyres were *not* down on pressure, so it's not a case of the safety
car having an effect. Why did nobody else even come close to having a
'moment' at Tamburello?
---
With regards to the steering column, some facts. These are all quotes
from the trial, acknowledged where possible.
"The steering column had been cut and a new element - which was not of
the same quality of metal [The parts were machined from two types of
compatible steel, T45 and EN14] or of the same diameter, being 18mm
instead of 22mm - was welded in. And it was where the new element had
been welded in that the column broke."
"There are three possible causes of the break - poor quality work, the
quick movement of the steering column and a too small diameter of the
joins between the three sections of the column." Tommaso Carletti, ex
Ferrari race engineer
"But I'm certain that the plane I arrived in yesterday had cracks in
it." - Frank Williams when told that his own experts had discovered
over 40 percent metal fatigue in Senna's steering column. Two
investigations from independent laboratories arrived at the same
conclusions. The steering column had signs of fatigue for 3/4 of the
circumference and for 40% of the section.
Quoted text (7 lines)
> If the car bottoms out, it will cause a sudden decrease in the amount of > weight that is on the tires, since at the moment of impact with the > tarmac that weight is now being supported by the bottom side of the car. > This sudden change reduces the amount of traction between the tires and > the surface of the track. If the car was close to the limit of adhesion > before it bottomed out, this sudden change might be enough to cause it > to lose traction and slide off the course, as happened with Senna's car."Malc" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<Bx3ya.21210$[email hidden]>...
> Yes, they used 'expert witnesses' views
Oh yes, Frank Dernie, 'race car designer':
'At the end of 1976, however, he joined the Hesketh F1 team, working
on the design of the 308E for the two seasons before the team closed
down. By the time that was over he had acquired a taste for the
engineering challenges in F1 and soon afterwards found a job with the
newly formed Williams Grand Prix Engineering. He became Patrick Head's
first aerodynamic assistant and, working in the Imperial College
windtunnel in London, helped Head and assistant designer Neil Oatley
to produce the Williams FW07. The car made Williams a winning team and
Dernie continued to head Williams' aerodynamic activities into the
mid-1980s - helping to win three World Championships and playing an
important role in establishing the team's own windtunnel facility.
Later he designed the Williams active suspension system.'
So he's a reliably unbiased person to get your quotes from...
"Senna's car had power steering. Because it had power steering, one of
the things that they were measuring on the car was the twisting force
that he was applying to the steering column. Because they were
measuring that at all times, right up to impact, you can look at the
information off the car, from the black box, and see that up to the
moment of impact it wasn't broken."
I don't know whether this was said in this way deliberately or not,
but "... the twisting force that he was applying to the steering
column" is strictly true. The measurement of steering going to the
black box was taken just behind the wheel itself. Dernie's conclusion,
"... and see that up to the moment of impact it wasn't broken" is
inherently flawed because even if the steering column is broken, the
black box will register steering input. The hydraulics of the power
steering unit were fine also, meaning that it was working, so
effectively both ends of the column were fully operational, but they
can't say whether or not the connection (the column itself) was fully
intact, partially broken or completely severed.
"Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> The hydraulics of the power
> steering unit were fine also, meaning that it was working, so
> effectively both ends of the column were fully operational, but they
> can't say whether or not the connection (the column itself) was fully
> intact, partially broken or completely severed.
And what conclusion do you draw from this?
You appear to be saying that the steering column 'obviously' broke, causing
the crash, but then go on to say that there was no way to know for sure,
just that it had evidence of metal fatigue.
My point is not to argue one way or the other, simply to point out that
there are very large grey areas which you appear to believe you have full
knowledge of, and I'd like to know whether you are actually the 'expert
witness' you believe yourself to be, or if in fact you are just guessing.
The court case cleared Williams, btw.
Malc.
Quoted text (8 lines)
> That's a flawed explanation. > > The car is physically not able to bottom out by itself. There is a > wooden plank on the bottom to measure wear, and if this is worn by > more than 1mm at the end of the race, the car is disqualified (1994 > regulations). The suspension is therefore set up to allow this > clearance. The only way the car would bottom out is on a bump at high > speed."Malc" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<GHoya.24142$[email hidden]>...
That Williams F1 were lying. They claim they have evidence that the
steering column broke as the car hit the wall. They don't. They have
evidence that the power steering unit was working, and that the
steering wheel was being moved, but not that one was getting to the
other. The videos clearly show that the wheels didn't move, so either
Senna didn't turn the wheel, or something broke.
> You appear to be saying that the steering column 'obviously' broke, causing
> the crash, but then go on to say that there was no way to know for sure,
> just that it had evidence of metal fatigue.
There is no way to know for sure. I know what I believe, and nobody
has offered a more likely sequence of events in my opinion, than what
I personally believe after extensive study. You are welcome to believe
what you like, I'm not trying to persuade people, just to offer more
facts than they might already know.
> My point is not to argue one way or the other, simply to point out that
> there are very large grey areas which you appear to believe you have full
> knowledge of, and I'd like to know whether you are actually the 'expert
> witness' you believe yourself to be, or if in fact you are just guessing.
If I told you I was an 'expert witness', would you believe me? If I
told you I was just guessing, would you not believe me? The facts are
the same whether a 5 year old kid tells you them or God himself tells
you them.
> The court case cleared Williams, btw.
Thanks for that amazing piece of information. Who are *your* sources?
;-)
Quoted text (10 lines)
> "Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > The hydraulics of the power > > steering unit were fine also, meaning that it was working, so > > effectively both ends of the column were fully operational, but they > > can't say whether or not the connection (the column itself) was fully > > intact, partially broken or completely severed. > > And what conclusion do you draw from this?"Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> "Malc" <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:<GHoya.24142$[email hidden]>...
The court case ruled in their favour. This, by definition, means that they
were not lying. It's how the law works, whether you agree with it or not.
Sometimes rulings are changed in the light of new evidence, but one thing
you can guarantee is that neither side will have provided more evidence than
necessary ;-)
You get the feeling that there was more going on than was revealed, and that
it doesn't quite add up. That still doesn't make Williams guilty. For all
you know the information you feel is missing may simply be that the steering
input sensor was faulty. Hardly a crime, is it?
> If I told you I was an 'expert witness', would you believe me?
Not if you just said so without backing it up. That was my point. By all
means have an opinion, but please don't preach 'the truth'. It doesn't sit
well with the nature of usenet ;-)
> > The court case cleared Williams, btw.
>
> Thanks for that amazing piece of information. Who are *your* sources?
> ;-)
I make it up as I go along ;-)
Malc.
Quoted text (12 lines)
> > "Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > The hydraulics of the power > > > steering unit were fine also, meaning that it was working, so > > > effectively both ends of the column were fully operational, but they > > > can't say whether or not the connection (the column itself) was fully > > > intact, partially broken or completely severed. > > > > And what conclusion do you draw from this? > > That Williams F1 were lying.[email hidden] (Nick) wrote in
news:[email hidden]:
> That's a flawed explanation.
>
> The car is physically not able to bottom out by itself. There is a
> wooden plank on the bottom to measure wear, and if this is worn by
> more than 1mm at the end of the race, the car is disqualified (1994
> regulations).Wasn't this rule introduced right after (and very likely because of)
Senna's crash?
Alex.
[email hidden] (Nick) wrote in
news:[email hidden]:
> 2) There was one lap of green flag racing before they started the lap
> on which Senna crashed. The tyre temps (and therefore pressures) were
> much higher the second time through Tamburello than they would have
> been the first time through, and the speeds would have been the same,
> so why did Senna get through the first time when his car would have
> been even closer to the ground?They were running very close to the ground then and small difference
in the line could have been the difference between bottoming out and not.
> Why did everybody else make it through without any problems?They might have been running higher. Or low pressure theory might be
correct and be the reason. Or both.
> Why, before or since, has nobody had a problem
> with tyre pressure and ride height?If memory serves me right, there were few very similar crashes
(Berger and Piquet?) several years before. That was one of the reasons
why organizers came under the fire, because the accident could have
been foreseen and prevented. Since then the minimal ride height was
increased and "wooden" plank has been introduced.
> 3) F1 cars are designed to 'bottom-out' at high speed and still remain
> perfectly balanced, otherwise it would be impossible to run at places
> like Brazil where the 190mph start-finish straight/curve is bumpy as
> hell.That's ok to bottom out when you don't need to turn (unless you end up
wearing off the plank beyond allowed limit). If you do it in the turn,
where you use all the traction tyres can provide, you will probably
lose it.
Alex.
"Malc" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<zlwya.24279$[email hidden]>...
> The court case ruled in their favour. This, by definition, means that they
> were not lying.
No it doesn't. It means that the court believed them.
Steering wheel is turning.
Power steering works.
-> Steering column was not broken
That argument is exactly the same as this:
I can turn my PC steering wheel.
GPL will respond to wheel inputs.
-> I can control GPL.
It's flawed, because the wheel connector might not be stuck in the
back of the computer. I can still turn the wheel, GPL will still react
to input, but it won't get any input because the wheel isn't plugged
in.
Just because a court believes it, doesn't make it automatically true.
> > If I told you I was an 'expert witness', would you believe me?
>
> Not if you just said so without backing it up. That was my point. By all
> means have an opinion, but please don't preach 'the truth'. It doesn't sit
> well with the nature of usenet ;-)
Okay, how about some conspiracy theories then? That seems to be the
Usenet nature...
1) The two black boxes (engine and car) were both removed. They were
scratched, but intact. Charlie Whiting ordered that the car BB was to
be given directly to the Williams team (to see if the cause might
affect Hill's car). The BB was not released by Williams for a month,
and when it was, it was 'destroyed'.
2) David Coulthard made a video showing the many centimetres of wheel
travel. The video had a sheet behind the wheel, so the viewers could
not see into the cockpit. The steering column mount on the original
car was rigid (see photos), and the only movement would have been
slight bending of the column, maybe a couple of millimetres.
3) The FOCA stream of onboard footage from the incident, which has a
+10 second blank patch between switching off Senna's camera and moving
to another driver (Berger, IIRC).
4) Many teams were going to boycott racing in Italy if Williams were
found guilty.
5) The FIA were going to stop racing in Italy if Williams were found
guilty, meaning a loss of over 30 events per year.
Hehe, you can believe some, none, or all of the above. Believe me,
many people do. And you know what else, it might have been aliens :-D
BTW, I don't want anybody to be found guilty of manslaughter, I just
want to know the cause. If it was a steering column failure, I don't
want anybody at Williams to be hung for it.
lol.
Quoted text (7 lines)
> > > The court case cleared Williams, btw. > > > > Thanks for that amazing piece of information. Who are *your* sources? > > ;-) > > I make it up as I go along ;-) >In article <zlwya.24279$[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...
> The court case ruled in their favour. This, by definition, means that they
> were not lying.
>
This is the most ridiculous thing I have read in a Usenet group in a
long time. Does it also mean that OJ wasn't lying either since he got
off?
--
__________________________
Todd Walker
http://twalker.d2g.com
__________________________
"Todd Walker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> In article <zlwya.24279$[email hidden]>,
> [email hidden] says...
> > The court case ruled in their favour. This, by definition, means thatthey
> > were not lying.
> >
>
> This is the most ridiculous thing I have read in a Usenet group in a
> long time. Does it also mean that OJ wasn't lying either since he got
> off?
In the law's eyes, yes.
If that's the most ridiculous thing you've read on usenet you need to get
about more ;-)
Malc.
On Wed, 21 May 2003 14:13:52 GMT, Todd Walker <[email hidden]>
wrote:
Not to mention people getting off the hook for procedural mistakes.
Court decisions try to reflect the truth, but in reality they merely
have consequences that just reflect the state of the trial.
Lawyers on one side painting everything black, and on the other side
white, will always be far from the truth however. There is nothing but
gray. :)
Ruud van Gaal
Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/
Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/
Quoted text (9 lines)
>In article <zlwya.24279$[email hidden]>, >[email hidden] says... >> The court case ruled in their favour. This, by definition, means that they >> were not lying. >> > >This is the most ridiculous thing I have read in a Usenet group in a >long time. Does it also mean that OJ wasn't lying either since he got >off?"Ruud van Gaal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> On Wed, 21 May 2003 14:13:52 GMT, Todd Walker <[email hidden]>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <zlwya.24279$[email hidden]>,
> >[email hidden] says...
> >> The court case ruled in their favour. This, by definition, means thatthey
You explained it better than I managed, thanks Ruud ;-)
Malc.
Quoted text (13 lines)
> >> were not lying. > >> > > > >This is the most ridiculous thing I have read in a Usenet group in a > >long time. Does it also mean that OJ wasn't lying either since he got > >off? > > Not to mention people getting off the hook for procedural mistakes. > Court decisions try to reflect the truth, but in reality they merely > have consequences that just reflect the state of the trial. > Lawyers on one side painting everything black, and on the other side > white, will always be far from the truth however. There is nothing but > gray. :)In article <zlwya.24279$[email hidden]>, "Malc"
<[email hidden]> writes:
>The court case ruled in their favour. This, by definition, means that they
>were not lying.
Nope, that just means the *court* didn't believe they were lying. Actually, it
means they couldn't prove it without a reasonable doubt. Neither of those has
ANYTHING to do with if they were really lying or not...
Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPLRank:-1.950
MonsterRank: +305.145
N2002 Rank:+17.59
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
"EldredP" wrote...
> >Just caught part of a TLC program called "Countdown to Danger". >
> ftp://141.211.234.112/countdown_to_danger_senna_crash.zip
> :-)
I'm assuming that wasn't a sound-only clip, but that's what it is for me.
Being codec-illiterate, any idea what I might need to get video?
Thanks,
Don
"Don Jennings" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<lPjFa.1430$[email hidden]>...
http://www.divx.com/
