Racing games 'breed' bad drivers

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6457353.stm

Young people are influenced more easily than older people, and racing games can influence young drivers, of course it can. So can movies, commercials, televized races, parents driving badly, and a lot of other things. You can't ban sim racing on this basis either, just like you can't ban hammers because you CAN use it to kill someone. So we end up where we started: Yes, racing sims may affect young peoples judgment, but there is nothing we can do about that. If I have learnt anything from sims it is the opposite of what this study suggests; racing is something that needs to be performed under near ideal conditions and among like-minded people. Racing requires such a staggering amount of concentration that makes it near impossible to emply racing techniques on public roads. I would think that youngsters will eventually learn how to cope with computer games, being able to separate the worlds completely. I remember one of the extremely fast guys back in the GP2 Racing League times who was a teenager at that time, started racing karts; he went off and flipped over so badly that he spent weeks in plaster on his first outing: So, you learn how to cope with the real world eventually, hehe. ---A--- On 19.03.2007 14:01, cowoffunk wrote: > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6457353.stm > >

"Asgeir Nesoen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:etm2t5$vqb$[email hidden]...

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> Young people are influenced more easily than older people, and racing > games can influence young drivers, of course it can. So can movies, > commercials, televized races, parents driving badly, and a lot of other > things. > > You can't ban sim racing on this basis either, just like you can't ban > hammers because you CAN use it to kill someone. > > So we end up where we started: Yes, racing sims may affect young peoples > judgment, but there is nothing we can do about that. > > If I have learnt anything from sims it is the opposite of what this study > suggests; racing is something that needs to be performed under near ideal > conditions and among like-minded people. Racing requires such a staggering > amount of concentration that makes it near impossible to emply racing > techniques on public roads. > > I would think that youngsters will eventually learn how to cope with > computer games, being able to separate the worlds completely. > > I remember one of the extremely fast guys back in the GP2 Racing League > times who was a teenager at that time, started racing karts; he went off > and flipped over so badly that he spent weeks in plaster on his first > outing: So, you learn how to cope with the real world eventually, hehe. > > ---A---

I pretty much agree with most of your reply. One fact to realize is that the vast majority of the younger crowd has had no formal racing experience at all. I remember an instructor in SCCA driving school when talking about overtaking saying that when overtaking another car, always assume that the driver is going to make the most dumb @#$$ed move you can imagine......:-). Now, 40+ years later this still relates to normal driving. I always assume that every car out there is going to do the dumbest thing I can imagine and it relates to me being a much better driver. I would think that virtual racing would improve reaction times and possibly a bit of knowledge of the physics of an automobile, but as far as the psycological part of taking it to the streets...I don't know. I would think that most of the younger folks realize that this is just a virtual world and not do that. I think that the BBC article is probably more about the street racing games like NFS rather than actual racing simulations. Ed

One thing I find when I put kids on my racing simulator - especially kids who have only played NFS-type games, is that they have no concept of having to slow down for a turn. They think you can just go full- throttle all the time. I doubt very many would take this attitude into real life driving, but some probably would. I let my 13 year old nephew and 11 year old son try the F430 mod at Monaco over the weekend. In both cases they actually did a pretty good job. But it was still difficult to get them to slow down enough to go through the turns properly. Pat Dotson

On Mar 19, 10:42 am, [email hidden] wrote:

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> One thing I find when I put kids on my racing simulator - especially > kids who have only played NFS-type games, is that they have no concept > of having to slow down for a turn. They think you can just go full- > throttle all the time. I doubt very many would take this attitude > into real life driving, but some probably would. > > I let my 13 year old nephew and 11 year old son try the F430 mod at > Monaco over the weekend. In both cases they actually did a pretty > good job. But it was still difficult to get them to slow down enough > to go through the turns properly. > > Pat Dotson

That's absolutely what this is about, you're right. There is a vast difference between a racing game and a racing simulator. The "bounce off the walls", public road style of racing between "innocent motorists" versus the closed track competition in a sim where all the traffic is moving in the same direction and the objective is to finish well and race well, rather than cause the most amount of damage. When you have games like Burnout giving monitary totals for each wreck and glorifying them in slow motion "matrix" style camera modes, of course kids are going to think they have superb skills when they manage to weave through the traffic for a whole lap... I wrote a piece about this earlier today in my blog. http://www.timwheatley.org/2007/03/19/racing-games-make-more-dangerous-drivers/

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> One thing I find when I put kids on my racing simulator - especially > kids who have only played NFS-type games, is that they have no concept > of having to slow down for a turn. They think you can just go full- > throttle all the time. I doubt very many would take this attitude > into real life driving, but some probably would. > > I let my 13 year old nephew and 11 year old son try the F430 mod at > Monaco over the weekend. In both cases they actually did a pretty > good job. But it was still difficult to get them to slow down enough > to go through the turns properly. > > Pat Dotson >

It's BS to think that kids-- no matter how stupid-- would actually think that sim driving habits would transfer over to real driving success (i.e., no accidents, etc.). Sounds to me like someone is making some wild claims in order to get people to read something. Alanb

On Mar 19, 2:52 pm, "Alan Bernardo" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > One thing I find when I put kids on my racing simulator - especially > > kids who have only played NFS-type games, is that they have no concept > > of having to slow down for a turn. They think you can just go full- > > throttle all the time. I doubt very many would take this attitude > > into real life driving, but some probably would. > > > I let my 13 year old nephew and 11 year old son try the F430 mod at > > Monaco over the weekend. In both cases they actually did a pretty > > good job. But it was still difficult to get them to slow down enough > > to go through the turns properly. > > > Pat Dotson > > It's BS to think that kids-- no matter how stupid-- would actually think > that sim driving habits would transfer over to real driving success (i.e., > no accidents, etc.). > > Sounds to me like someone is making some wild claims in order to get people > to read something. > > Alanb

Lots of kids have undiagnosed mental problems. This isn't too far out of the realms of belief. It's not so much believing there is no consequence, it's about them believing they have skills that they don't. I remember 10 years ago when I was that age hearing people saying their reflexes and stuff were so much better because of games and how cool that was...

On Mar 19, 2:52 pm, "Alan Bernardo" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > One thing I find when I put kids on my racing simulator - especially > > kids who have only played NFS-type games, is that they have no concept > > of having to slow down for a turn. They think you can just go full- > > throttle all the time. I doubt very many would take this attitude > > into real life driving, but some probably would. > > It's BS to think that kids-- no matter how stupid-- would actually think > that sim driving habits would transfer over to real driving success (i.e., > no accidents, etc.). > > Sounds to me like someone is making some wild claims in order to get people > to read something.

I agree with the wild claims part. The story is a bunch of BS. But... Not sure if your first comments were directed at my response at all. I can give you a concrete personal example on this very topic: Last year I bought a Yamaha TTR 90 trail bike for my kids to ride. The bike has three forward gears. It was a big deal for my kids when I let them switch to the next higher gear as they got used to riding. Our first time out at a riding area my 13 year old step daughter was begging to go into third gear. Well, going fast is easy, just turn the throttle. It's slowing down that is harder. At the end of the longest straight was a 90 degree left turn. If you miss the turn you go straight into the woods. Not 10 minutes went by after telling her 'NO' to third gear when she went screaming past us in third gear heading straight for the trees. She went way too deep and had no idea how to get the bike slowed down at that point. Luckily, she grabbed a handful of front brake and the front wheel washed out. She went down before getting to the turn. All this excitement was followed by a trip to the emergency room to confirm a broken collar bone. She/We got off easy! The point being, she thought I was an idiot for thinking that she wasn't capable of going faster. She had no appreciation for the consequences. That'll teach her :) I don't know how old you are Alan, or if you have kids, but there is no telling what kind of stupid crap they will pull no matter how much they are warned and taught. I let my kids play NFS on the XBox. No big deal to me. The best thing you can do is let them get some experience on a motorized vehicle, be it a motorcycle, karts, or whatever, before they ever hit the streets in a car. Pat Dotson

On 19 Mar 2007 21:12:18 -0700, [email hidden] wrote: > Not sure if your first comments were directed at my response at all. > I can give you a concrete personal example on this very topic: Last > year I bought a Yamaha TTR 90 trail bike for my kids to ride. The > bike has three forward gears. It was a big deal for my kids when I > let them switch to the next higher gear as they got used to riding. ><snip> > The point being, she thought I was an idiot for thinking that she > wasn't capable of going faster. She had no appreciation for the > consequences. That'll teach her :) May I suggest you were an idiot for buying your kids a freaking motorcycle in the first place??? Don't know about you, but in my day and age, we were content riding our bicycles around the park and making "vroommm vroomm" noises ;-) Cheers, uwe ps: two kids here (7 and 16), nothing worse than a broken arm from falling off a tree so far (/knocks on wood ;-) -- GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

On Mar 20, 5:48 am, Uwe Schürkamp <[email hidden]> wrote: > May I suggest you were an idiot for buying your kids a freaking > motorcycle in the first place??? No. You may not! :) My seven year boy old does really well on that 90. My two 11 year old boys haven't had any problem either. All three of them play NFS on the Xbox 360. It probably has a lot do with my having coached them in baseball and other sports. They are used to following my directions to some extent. On the other hand, my step-daugher, who to my knowledge has never played NFS, is the only one who has had a problem with it. I think it has more to do with being a stubborn teen-age girl than playing/not playing video games! I hope you weren't serious about thinking it's a mistake to put a kid on a motorcycle. I don't see anything wrong with it at all. One thing I'm not going to let them do is race karts which I've done for several years, but I am thinking of putting them in a 1/4 midget car this year. Pat Dotson

On Mar 20, 4:48 am, Uwe Schürkamp <[email hidden]> wrote: > May I suggest you were an idiot for buying your kids a freaking > motorcycle in the first place??? Don't know about you, but in my day and > age, we were content riding our bicycles around the park and making > "vroommm vroomm" noises ;-) Showing your age there Uwe. Now everybody knows you grew up before they invented the powered motorcar. ;-)

[email hidden] wrote:

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> One thing I find when I put kids on my racing simulator - especially > kids who have only played NFS-type games, is that they have no concept > of having to slow down for a turn. They think you can just go full- > throttle all the time. I doubt very many would take this attitude > into real life driving, but some probably would. > > I let my 13 year old nephew and 11 year old son try the F430 mod at > Monaco over the weekend. In both cases they actually did a pretty > good job. But it was still difficult to get them to slow down enough > to go through the turns properly.

I've been driving racing sims since I can remember - when did Revs come out? I was born in '79 so I guess I was about 8 or 10 when I first saw Revs, and I remember getting better and better at it until I was quicker than my Dad (but I don't know how old I was when that happened). I wonder if the low quality graphics of Revs, coupled with the brutal simplicity of the physics model - if you got on the grass, at all, you crashed - made the learning curve steeper and forced me to figure out how to get round the corner, because it was that or nothing. Today's video games are usually either soft on accident damage, or can be put into a mode where they are - perhaps that's the issue here. If, when you slid into the barriers in F1 2007 on the Playstation, your car broke and you were unable to carry on, every time, then perhaps that addition of realism would answer these critics. And it need not damage the enjoyment of the game - frustration at getting it wrong is what leads to joy at getting it right. Of course, in todays pander to the lowest common denominator world, that probably won't wash. -- Phil http://www.usefilm.com/photographer/31307.html

"Tim Wheatley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Mar 19, 2:52 pm, "Alan Bernardo" <[email hidden]> wrote: >> <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> >> news:[email hidden]... >> >> > One thing I find when I put kids on my racing simulator - especially >> > kids who have only played NFS-type games, is that they have no concept >> > of having to slow down for a turn. They think you can just go full- >> > throttle all the time. I doubt very many would take this attitude >> > into real life driving, but some probably would. >> >> > I let my 13 year old nephew and 11 year old son try the F430 mod at >> > Monaco over the weekend. In both cases they actually did a pretty >> > good job. But it was still difficult to get them to slow down enough >> > to go through the turns properly. >> >> > Pat Dotson >> >> It's BS to think that kids-- no matter how stupid-- would actually think >> that sim driving habits would transfer over to real driving success >> (i.e., >> no accidents, etc.). >> >> Sounds to me like someone is making some wild claims in order to get >> people >> to read something. >> >> Alanb > > Lots of kids have undiagnosed mental problems. This isn't too far out > of the realms of belief. It's not so much believing there is no > consequence, it's about them believing they have skills that they > don't. I remember 10 years ago when I was that age hearing people > saying their reflexes and stuff were so much better because of games > and how cool that was... >

Certainly. Kids or adults who have undiagnosed mental problems, as you say, can be effected by a chirping bird. But to say that simulation driving games or driving games in general can produce bad drivers is absurd. Alan

On Mar 19, 3:52 pm, "Alan Bernardo" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > One thing I find when I put kids on my racing simulator - especially > > kids who have only played NFS-type games, is that they have no concept > > of having to slow down for a turn. They think you can just go full- > > throttle all the time. I doubt very many would take this attitude > > into real life driving, but some probably would. > > > I let my 13 year old nephew and 11 year old son try the F430 mod at > > Monaco over the weekend. In both cases they actually did a pretty > > good job. But it was still difficult to get them to slow down enough > > to go through the turns properly. > > > Pat Dotson > > It's BS to think that kids-- no matter how stupid-- would actually think > that sim driving habits would transfer over to real driving success (i.e., > no accidents, etc.). > > Sounds to me like someone is making some wild claims in order to get people > to read something. > > Alanb

But on the reverse side in Winnipeg Man, there's apparently an rash of kids stealing cars to go hunting joggers (opening the passenger door to hit them as they drive by), one guys' in a coma. Dollars to donuts it's somethign they learned from a console game and wanted to try it for real.

On Mar 21, 4:32 pm, "mcewena" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> On Mar 19, 3:52 pm, "Alan Bernardo" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > > > <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > >news:[email hidden]... > > > > One thing I find when I put kids on my racing simulator - especially > > > kids who have only played NFS-type games, is that they have no concept > > > of having to slow down for a turn. They think you can just go full- > > > throttle all the time. I doubt very many would take this attitude > > > into real life driving, but some probably would. > > > > I let my 13 year old nephew and 11 year old son try the F430 mod at > > > Monaco over the weekend. In both cases they actually did a pretty > > > good job. But it was still difficult to get them to slow down enough > > > to go through the turns properly. > > > > Pat Dotson > > > It's BS to think that kids-- no matter how stupid-- would actually think > > that sim driving habits would transfer over to real driving success (i.e., > > no accidents, etc.). > > > Sounds to me like someone is making some wild claims in order to get people > > to read something. > > > Alanb > > But on the reverse side in Winnipeg Man, there's apparently an rash of > kids stealing cars to go hunting joggers (opening the passenger door > to hit them as they drive by), one guys' in a coma. Dollars to > donuts it's somethign they learned from a console game and wanted to > try it for real.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -

Obviously games didn't make them assholes but it's likely a tool that helped them on their way.

<[email hidden]> wrote... > > One thing I'm not going to let them do is race karts which > I've done for several years, but I am thinking of putting > them in a 1/4 midget car this year. May I ask why? -a friend of mine's 11-year old daughter (who, incidentally, caught the racing bug at the wheel of a GPL F3 car on my PC) is now karting (MiniMax I think it's called) and, from watching a couple meetings, it seems pretty safe to me. Of course a closed car on an oval will be even safer, I suppose... Jan. =---

"mcewena" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Mar 19, 3:52 pm, "Alan Bernardo" <[email hidden]> wrote: >> <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> >> news:[email hidden]... >> >> > One thing I find when I put kids on my racing simulator - especially >> > kids who have only played NFS-type games, is that they have no concept >> > of having to slow down for a turn. They think you can just go full- >> > throttle all the time. I doubt very many would take this attitude >> > into real life driving, but some probably would. >> >> > I let my 13 year old nephew and 11 year old son try the F430 mod at >> > Monaco over the weekend. In both cases they actually did a pretty >> > good job. But it was still difficult to get them to slow down enough >> > to go through the turns properly. >> >> > Pat Dotson >> >> It's BS to think that kids-- no matter how stupid-- would actually think >> that sim driving habits would transfer over to real driving success >> (i.e., >> no accidents, etc.). >> >> Sounds to me like someone is making some wild claims in order to get >> people >> to read something. >> >> Alanb > > But on the reverse side in Winnipeg Man, there's apparently an rash of > kids stealing cars to go hunting joggers (opening the passenger door > to hit them as they drive by), one guys' in a coma. Dollars to > donuts it's somethign they learned from a console game and wanted to > try it for real. >

My guess is that they did not learn this from any video or computer game. This kind of thing has been tried before, way before computers came to be. If it happened when there were no computers and no television, who is to blame. If such things happen when there was no computer but there was television, then it's television's fault. If it happens when there was television but now there are computers and computer and video games, it's the games that did it. The better explanation is that some goons thought of it themselves, while others may have just replicated what they saw on the news, about whacking joggers with a car door. All this stuff about how games and other media influence bad acts is complete BS. There are some bad actors who, no matter the influence, are going to do bad things. Watching cartoons only makes someone more violent if that person was violent to begin with, and the same goes with any other kind of external influence. Claiming otherwise only sell books and advertisements. Alan

Tim Wheatley wrote:

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> On Mar 20, 4:48 am, Uwe Sch�rkamp <[email hidden]> wrote: >> May I suggest you were an idiot for buying your kids a freaking >> motorcycle in the first place??? Don't know about you, but in my day and >> age, we were content riding our bicycles around the park and making >> "vroommm vroomm" noises ;-) > > Showing your age there Uwe. Now everybody knows you grew up before > they invented the powered motorcar. ;-)

Uwe, I think you should have a look at this: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20030102648.html Hope this helps. Sincerely, Mr. Sylvestre

On 20 Mar 2007 07:28:38 -0700, Tim Wheatley wrote: > Showing your age there Uwe. Now everybody knows you grew up before > they invented the powered motorcar. ;-) > touche ;-) It would seem that what this age needs is kids on bikes and pushbikes, not on fuel-burning motorcycles, but I guess that's a matter of taste and cultural background, too. Oh yeah, and bare-footed, uphill, both ways, in the blizzard, at night. Now get off my lawn!!! ;-) Cheers, uwe -- GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:OljMh.79392$[email hidden]...

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> <[email hidden]> wrote... >> >> One thing I'm not going to let them do is race karts which >> I've done for several years, but I am thinking of putting >> them in a 1/4 midget car this year. > > May I ask why? -a friend of mine's 11-year old daughter (who, > incidentally, caught the racing bug at the wheel of a GPL F3 car on my PC) > is now karting (MiniMax I think it's called) and, from watching a couple > meetings, it seems pretty safe to me. Of course a closed car on an oval > will be even safer, I suppose... > > Jan.

Carting is huge here in the MW US and very safe. They even require Hans devices and have very strict chassis safety regulations. 1/4 midgets are very good too, but because of distance to go racing them, they just haven't caught on as much as carts in our area. I would not hesitate to say that racing either carts or 1/4 midgets is probably safer than baseball. My bad knees will attest to that.......:-) Ed

On Mar 21, 7:38 pm, "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote: > <[email hidden]> wrote... > > One thing I'm not going to let them do is race karts which > > I've done for several years, but I am thinking of putting > > them in a 1/4 midget car this year. > > May I ask why? -a friend of mine's 11-year old daughter (who, incidentally, First I'll say, in five years of racing karts I've never seen a kid get very seriously hurt. I believe it's fairly safe too. But, I have seen some kids in crashes who could have been severely injured. They were lucky. I've personally been in some pretty hairy situations including a flip at 70 mph - those incidents are usually due to incompetent adults. I'm just not going to put my kids into that potential situation. If I put them in a motorized vehicle to compete it will be something with a harness and a roll cage. Ed mentioned a type of karts called "champ karts" that are raced in some parts of the US. They have a roll cage and harnesses. Unfortunately, they haven't caught on in my area. It's all open karts around here. Not that 1/4 midgets are perfect. I know of one local kid who broke a leg in a 1/4 midget crash. But at least they are somewhat protected in a midget. Plus the 1/4 midget tracks are generally very small compared to kart ovals, so speeds are relatively low. Not to mention I'd like to start messing around with suspension settings on those cars :) Pat Dotson

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Mar 21, 7:38 pm, "Jan Verschueren" > <[email hidden]> wrote: >> <[email hidden]> wrote... >> > One thing I'm not going to let them do is race karts which >> > I've done for several years, but I am thinking of putting >> > them in a 1/4 midget car this year. >> >> May I ask why? -a friend of mine's 11-year old daughter (who, >> incidentally, > > First I'll say, in five years of racing karts I've never seen a kid > get very seriously hurt. I believe it's fairly safe too. But, I have > seen some kids in crashes who could have been severely injured. They > were lucky. I've personally been in some pretty hairy situations > including a flip at 70 mph - those incidents are usually due to > incompetent adults. I'm just not going to put my kids into that > potential situation. If I put them in a motorized vehicle to compete > it will be something with a harness and a roll cage. > > Ed mentioned a type of karts called "champ karts" that are raced in > some parts of the US. They have a roll cage and harnesses. > Unfortunately, they haven't caught on in my area. It's all open karts > around here. > > Not that 1/4 midgets are perfect. I know of one local kid who broke a > leg in a 1/4 midget crash. But at least they are somewhat protected > in a midget. Plus the 1/4 midget tracks are generally very small > compared to kart ovals, so speeds are relatively low. Not to mention > I'd like to start messing around with suspension settings on those > cars :) > > Pat Dotson >

Yep, champ carts is what the kids race around here. They are kind of like a roll cage with a motor.......:-). There are several classes all the way up to really fast shifter carts that will top 90-100mph ( maybe even a bit quicker). We go watch a kid in one of my wife's classes who has progressed all the way up to the shifters. He is 11yrs old. He started in the entry levels about 5yrs ago. He wants to go midget racing, and he could probably do it for less money than the carts......When I found out how much money was in those carts I damn near flipped......... The problem is the 150-200 mile minimum trip to go race midgets and 1/4s, and even further (Iowa has several good venues) for good competition and reputable sactioning bodies. Ed

On Mar 23, 9:43 am, "Ed Medlin" <[email hidden]> wrote: > <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > The problem is the 150-200 mile > minimum trip to go race midgets and 1/4s, and even further (Iowa has several > good venues) for good competition and reputable sactioning bodies. I'm in a good area for oval racing. I have a kart dirt oval within a 20 minute drive, and a paved 1/4 midget club track about 15 minutes away. The local 1/4 midget club here has been around for 30 years, has a great facility, and even hosts national races. There are several other choices for kart ovals within about an hour drive. Unfortunately, road courses of any sort are few and far between here in Indiana. The closest kart road course is world-class, though - Mark Dismore's New Castle Motorsports Park. I've done a few laps there in a TAG kart. Lots of fun! If I ever do any more karting it will probably be at New Castle. Pat Dotson

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Mar 23, 9:43 am, "Ed Medlin" <[email hidden]> wrote: >> <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> >> The problem is the 150-200 mile >> minimum trip to go race midgets and 1/4s, and even further (Iowa has >> several >> good venues) for good competition and reputable sactioning bodies. > > I'm in a good area for oval racing. I have a kart dirt oval within a > 20 minute drive, and a paved 1/4 midget club track about 15 minutes > away. The local 1/4 midget club here has been around for 30 years, > has a great facility, and even hosts national races. There are > several other choices for kart ovals within about an hour drive. > > Unfortunately, road courses of any sort are few and far between here > in Indiana. The closest kart road course is world-class, though - > Mark Dismore's New Castle Motorsports Park. I've done a few laps > there in a TAG kart. Lots of fun! If I ever do any more karting it > will probably be at New Castle. > > Pat Dotson >

Yea, you are in open-wheel oval racing heaven in IN......:-). It is great that you have a good club. You have to have a good control body for good safe racing, especially for kids. Some of the (not all mind you) control and sanctioning bodies only care about the money coming in and neglect to properly police safety and other regulations. Ed

On Mar 19, 6:01 am, "cowoffunk" <[email hidden]> wrote: > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6457353.stm I agree, because in real life I suddenly find myself driving on people's roofs, down subway tunnels, over boulders, up the stairs of office buildings and so fourth. Damn Crazy Taxi and Unwheel really screwed me up. %)