In case you hadn't heard, you might like to read some of this:
FutureMark press release, May 23rd
(http://www.futuremark.com/companyinfo/3dmark03_audit_report.pdf)
"After the launch of 3DMark03 Build 320 Futuremark has received reports from
the members of its BETA Program concerning certain anomalies with 3DMark03
and Nvidia drivers. ExtremeTech (www.extremetech.com) has published an
article on suspecting NVIDIA drivers to improperly boost scores on
Futuremark's 3DMark�03. Some of these anomalies have also been reported by
Beyond3D. Alarmed by all these reports Futuremark has conducted a thorough
internal audit regarding this matter and has verified that certain NVIDIA
drivers indeed seem to have detection mechanisms, which are triggered by
components of the 3DMark03 program. We have identified eight such
mechanisms.
"In our testing, all identified detection mechanisms stopped working when we
altered the benchmark code just trivially and without changing any of the
actual benchmark workload. With this altered benchmark, NVIDIA's certain
products had a performance drop of as much as 24.1% while competition's
products performance drop stayed within the margin of error of 3%. To our
knowledge, all drivers with these detection mechanisms were published only
after the launch of 3DMark03. According to industry's terminology, this type
of driver design is defined as 'driver cheats'."
Sounds like a pretty harsh allegation. Here's nVidia's response:
"Since nVidia is not part of the Futuremark beta program (a program which
costs of hundreds of thousands of dollars to participate in), we do not get
a chance to work with Futuremark on writing the shaders like we would with a
real applications developer. We don't know what they did, but it looks like
they have intentionally tried to create a scenario that makes our products
look bad."
Okay, so FutureMark receive reports from BETA Program members about nVidia
cheating, but nVidia is not a member of the BETA Program, so who is telling
the truth? Lets see what ATI had to say about this, being the main
competitor to nVidia and also a member of the BETA Program:
"Despite still being a full Futuremark Beta member, ATI did not make it out
of the report entirely unscathed either. There is a performance difference
of about 8 per cent in Game Test 4, that accounts for about a 2 per cent
difference in the final 3DMark03 score, between the new and old versions,
indicating that although not visually different something was occurring on
this particular test.
"The 1.9 per cent performance gain comes from optimization of the two DX9
shaders (water and sky) in Game Test 4 . We render the scene exactly as
intended by Futuremark, in full-precision floating point. Our shaders are
mathematically and functionally identical to Futuremark's and there are no
visual artifacts; we simply shuffle instructions to take advantage of our
architecture. These are exactly the sort of optimizations that work in games
to improve frame rates without reducing image quality and as such, are a
realistic approach to a benchmark intended to measure in-game performance.
However, we recognize that these can be used by some people to call into
question the legitimacy of benchmark results, and so we are removing them
from our driver as soon as is physically possible. We expect them to be gone
by the next release of CATALYST."
Hmm, it seems ATI were doing the same thing, but because they are a member
of the BETA Program, nobody said anything. Fair play to ATI for not just
playing off of potential nVidia embarrasment.
So, anybody know why FutureMark are so upset with nVidia?
Nick
Nick wrote:
I look at like this... Nvidia were the incumbents, the top dog, a
democratic president. ATI were the upstarts, the challenger, the
successor, a newly elected republican president. But in Nvidia's eyes,
ATI didn't win the graphics war, they cheated. FutureMark is a flawed
system in gauging the performance of a 3D chipset. Sure it was the same
system that crowned Nvidia the winner in past battles, but that was then
and this is now. If it wasn't for a biased press including Toms
Hardware, ExtremeTech, and FiringSquad the Nvidia would still be king.
Nvidia was screwed! It's all wrong, wrong, wrong!
In other words... It's all sour grapes. Nvidia needs to quit bitching
and realize that they lost. Nvidia needs to ask themselves, do we go
the way of 3dfx or do we pull our heads out of our asses and get on with
building videocards.
Quoted text (7 lines)
> Hmm, it seems ATI were doing the same thing, but because they are a member > of the BETA Program, nobody said anything. Fair play to ATI for not just > playing off of potential nVidia embarrasment. > > So, anybody know why FutureMark are so upset with nVidia? > > NickI would have to totally agree with your assessment of this situation.
You can add to the matter, the complete mess that nVidia has created with
their nForce2 mobo/northbridge chipset drivers! Almost all of the mobo
boards using it (regardless of manufacturer), are experiencing "bugs" which
have been directly attributed to the poorly written drivers from nVidia!
Claims of "cut n' paste" hacks of simple MS drivers, patched together in
some kind of a complete mess.....are rampant in the mobo forums!
I think it is clear that nVidia has lost management control at their
company. Individuals are making "decisions" about product....that are not
in concert with corporate goals or challenges within the marketplace!
That's called "anarchy" when it happens within world governments! Anarchy
within a corporate environment....is usually the "kiss of death" to the
organization! This is also a major pitfall when one company takes control
of the core of the modern computing system. It was one of my fears when AMD
was venturing into the northbridge chipset game (God, what if they also
started making video cards?).
Is this all "fallout" from the MS/US Government legal action? Hell, it
certainly could be! Why is it all of a sudden, computer component
manufacturer's are having so much trouble coordinating drivers,
cross-polinization of their hardware and such? Could it be they fear being
sued if they work together (anti-trust laws were pretty screwed up by the MS
vs USA garbage)! Is this yet another example of government over-stepping
its boundaries and interfering in the "marketplace" in a manner that is not
corrective....but is more destructive than the "perceived problem" they were
trying to fix in the first place! Didn't we learn anything from the
"Ma-Bell" breakup? [Today, I have Comcast Internet service, Comcast digital
"local" telephone service, Comcast digital long-distance telephone service
and Comcast cable TV.......at my house - so much for breaking up the
monopoly of Ma-Bell. Comcast, formerly ATT, formerly Ma-Bell!] Or how
about the airline deregulation of the 1980's? Do we have more numbers of
competitive airline companies today....or less? And, the ones we do
have.....are they healthy or extremely sick? You make the call!
This is just a complete mess! Think I'll move to Australia......LOL!
Regards,
Tom
"Internet User" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Nick wrote:
> > Hmm, it seems ATI were doing the same thing, but because they are amember
Quoted text (22 lines)
> > of the BETA Program, nobody said anything. Fair play to ATI for not just > > playing off of potential nVidia embarrasment. > > > > So, anybody know why FutureMark are so upset with nVidia? > > > > Nick > > I look at like this... Nvidia were the incumbents, the top dog, a > democratic president. ATI were the upstarts, the challenger, the > successor, a newly elected republican president. But in Nvidia's eyes, > ATI didn't win the graphics war, they cheated. FutureMark is a flawed > system in gauging the performance of a 3D chipset. Sure it was the same > system that crowned Nvidia the winner in past battles, but that was then > and this is now. If it wasn't for a biased press including Toms > Hardware, ExtremeTech, and FiringSquad the Nvidia would still be king. > Nvidia was screwed! It's all wrong, wrong, wrong! > > In other words... It's all sour grapes. Nvidia needs to quit bitching > and realize that they lost. Nvidia needs to ask themselves, do we go > the way of 3dfx or do we pull our heads out of our asses and get on with > building videocards. >
Tom Pabst wrote:
>
> This is just a complete mess! Think I'll move to Australia......LOL!
AussieV8's !!!
Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
"goyl at nettx dot no"
http://www.theuspits.com
"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--
AussieV8's totally RULE!
TP
"Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (17 lines)
> > > Tom Pabst wrote: > > > > This is just a complete mess! Think I'll move to Australia......LOL! > > AussieV8's !!! > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > "goyl at nettx dot no" > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--
Tom Pabst wrote:
>
> AussieV8's totally RULE!
Yes....:-)
Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
"goyl at nettx dot no"
http://www.theuspits.com
"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--
It seems rather obvious that if either ATI or NVIDIA loses the trust of the
market place they will disappear. I love Capitalism! Things in business have
a way of working out. NVIDIA is a great gaming card as were the VOODOOS in
their day. I would recommend selling off any stocks in NVIDIA now!
"AlvinKlein" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
doing.
> ATI re-ordered some shader instructions to optimize for their chiparchitecture,
> and it only affected game4 of 3dmark03. The final image is still exactlywhat
> the benchmark wanted. The result, 8% in game 4 and 1.9% overall.Cheating...
> somewhat in the spirit of benchmarking.
>
> What Nvidia was doing was not only re-ordering, but substituting their own
> simpler shader, lowering precision on ps2, and inserting clipping planesinto
> every frame in 3dmark03... that is, they removed stuff you can't see sothat
> their chip doesn't have to render everything the benchmark is asking for.The
> result 49% in game 4, and significant amount in games 1 to 3 in 3dmark03.
> Cheating... hell yeah.
> http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1086025,00.asp
>
> That "we don't know what they are doing to make our chips look bad"
> reminds me of a high school kid getting caught cheating... just a badexcuse.
> They were in the beta program until 2 months before 3dmark03's release.That
> is, they were in the beta program for 16 of the 18 months in development.
> They knew full well what 3dmark03 is about, they only left the program
> when it became evident that their new chip architecture was poorly suited
> for PS 2.0 and PS 1.4 when compared to ATI's offering. And 3dMark03 was
> going to rely heavily on those (as will future games) and Nvidia couldn'tbully
> Futuremark into optimizing of them.
>
>
>
>
>
Quoted text (10 lines)
> "Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >In case you hadn't heard, you might like to read some of this: > > > >FutureMark press release, May 23rd > >(http://www.futuremark.com/companyinfo/3dmark03_audit_report.pdf) > > > > > There's a big difference between what ATI was doing and what Nvidia was>
> This is just a complete mess! Think I'll move to Australia......LOL!
>
> Regards,
>
> Tom
Waste of time doing that. Our present government is hell bent on making
us the next state of America. Our Prime Minister is Americanising
everything here. Our Air Traffic Control regulations, our health care
system, the banking system, the legal system. And if he signs the free
trade agrreement, we will be the next sate of america.
Mind you, there is the AUSSIE V8'S!!
Steve
Steve Whitty wrote:
....Sounds like Norway then....except for the AussieV8'S !!!
Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
"goyl at nettx dot no"
http://www.theuspits.com
"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--
Quoted text (15 lines)
> > > > > This is just a complete mess! Think I'll move to Australia......LOL! > > > > Regards, > > > > Tom > > Waste of time doing that. Our present government is hell bent on making > us the next state of America. Our Prime Minister is Americanising > everything here. Our Air Traffic Control regulations, our health care > system, the banking system, the legal system. And if he signs the free > trade agrreement, we will be the next sate of america. > > Mind you, there is the AUSSIE V8'S!!When does the Aussie V8 season start?
-Larry
"Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (17 lines)
> > > Tom Pabst wrote: > > > > This is just a complete mess! Think I'll move to Australia......LOL! > > AussieV8's !!! > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > "goyl at nettx dot no" > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--
Larry wrote:
>
> When does the Aussie V8 season start?
March 7th I believe......the coming weekend they're at "Barbagallo
Raceway Wanneroo", amazing names for a couple of these tracks :-)
http://www.v8supercars.com.au/calendars/clndreventopt.asp?ind=M
Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
"goyl at nettx dot no"
http://www.theuspits.com
"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........"
--Groucho Marx--
Cool...
-Larry
"Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
