OT - Gordon/Montoya at Indy

Messed around at lunch today and watched those guys driving each other's cars around the F1 course at Indy. JPM flat-spotted the Cup car's tires by trying to use F1 braking zones, and Gordon went quick enough in a half dozen laps to have made the grid at last year's USGP. As with everyone who first gets in one it seems, Gordon freaked on the carbon-carbon brakes of the FW24, while Montoya was surprised at how much the Cup car moved around up on the banking at speed. Looked like they both had a lot of fun, and it was nice to see that crowd goofing on the whole thing. Everyone was smiling but the Williams mechanics, who all looked like they had something bad for lunch. But then PH would probably sack 'em if he caught them smiling... ;-)

"Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... Gordon went quick enough in a half dozen > laps to have made the grid at last year's USGP. Not true the pole was a 1:10.79. The slowest car on the grid was a 1:13.81. He needed to drop about 3 more seconds to be in last place, but still very impressive for his first time in an F1 car!

I think that they clarified that by saying with the 107% rule, he'd have made it. Barely. But then again, what were the weather conditions on that day and did the Williams folks put a pole chasing setup on it? My guess would be, probably not. But with a week or so practice... Could he move to F1? Probably. Would he want to? Doubtful. But it was neat to see both drivers go ga-ga over the situation... :) On Wed, 11 Jun 2003 21:21:21 GMT, "Mike Portnoy" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >"Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... > Gordon went quick enough in a half dozen >> laps to have made the grid at last year's USGP. > >Not true the pole was a 1:10.79. The slowest car on the grid was a 1:13.81. >He needed to drop about 3 more seconds to be in last place, but still very >impressive for his first time in an F1 car! >

Sounds interesting. Do you know if that is going to be rebroadcast in prime time at all? "Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Messed around at lunch today and watched those guys driving each other's > cars around the F1 course at Indy. JPM flat-spotted the Cup car's tiresby > trying to use F1 braking zones, and Gordon went quick enough in a halfdozen > laps to have made the grid at last year's USGP. As with everyone whofirst > gets in one it seems, Gordon freaked on the carbon-carbon brakes of the > FW24, while Montoya was surprised at how much the Cup car moved around upon > the banking at speed. Looked like they both had a lot of fun, and it was > nice to see that crowd goofing on the whole thing. Everyone was smilingbut > the Williams mechanics, who all looked like they had something bad for > lunch. But then PH would probably sack 'em if he caught them smiling...;-) > >

Mike Donnelly Jr wrote:

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> > I think that they clarified that by saying with the 107% rule, he'd > have made it. Barely. But then again, what were the weather > conditions on that day and did the Williams folks put a pole chasing > setup on it? My guess would be, probably not. But with a week or so > practice... > > Could he move to F1? Probably. Would he want to? Doubtful. But it > was neat to see both drivers go ga-ga over the situation... :)

Hopefully they'll show it over here as well (yeah right), as for Gordon in F1...many F1 hacks seems to believe that Gordon could have been a decent F1 driver, bit late to switch now perhaps ? :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

It's been kicked around on this side of the pond a bit, and the bench racing conclusion is that he could make it in F1 if he wanted to. Of course, he'd probably take quite a paycut to do so which is probably what is stopping him. (That and talking with the now unemployed John Andretti about his cousin's experience.) Could he make the jump successfully? Probably. But, look at JPM. He's a fantastic driver, and yet he has what, 2 wins? Granted, he's had a lot of mechanical misfortune when he's had winning opportunities, but still, if there was someone who could take on Shumie, I would have put some money that it would have been him. I'm still shocked that Zanardi didnt go back and kick Shumie's butt. That was a guy with some serious car control. Even with a slightly inferior car, I figured he'd give Shumie a run. The interesting question (at least to me) would be, how would Shumie do in a 'primative' stock car... I'd love to see that. For him to come here though... Talk about a paycut... Speaking of high-priced athletes, what about that Beckham deal? (just to throw a bit of fuel on the fire) Mike On Wed, 11 Jun 2003 23:51:35 +0200, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> > >Mike Donnelly Jr wrote: >> >> I think that they clarified that by saying with the 107% rule, he'd >> have made it. Barely. But then again, what were the weather >> conditions on that day and did the Williams folks put a pole chasing >> setup on it? My guess would be, probably not. But with a week or so >> practice... >> >> Could he move to F1? Probably. Would he want to? Doubtful. But it >> was neat to see both drivers go ga-ga over the situation... :) > >Hopefully they'll show it over here as well (yeah right), as for Gordon >in F1...many F1 hacks seems to believe that Gordon could have been a >decent F1 driver, bit late to switch now perhaps ? :-) > > >Beers and cheers >(uncle) Goy >"goyl at nettx dot no" > >http://www.theuspits.com > >"A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" >--Groucho Marx--

Yes, it will be rebroadcast. here is a clip on nascar.com javascript:LaunchVideo('/video/nascar/2003/06/11/wc.mic.gordon_F1.ram'); not sure that will work, it is on the main page. here is the speed channel replay schedule Live Wednesday, June 11, 1pm ET Special Replay at 7pm and midnight ET Also replays Friday, June 20, 8:30pm -- McWhom ----------------------------------------------------------------- "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bc8845$gder8$[email hidden]... : Sounds interesting. Do you know if that is going to be rebroadcast in prime : time at all? : : : "Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote in message : news:[email hidden]... : > Messed around at lunch today and watched those guys driving each other's : > cars around the F1 course at Indy. JPM flat-spotted the Cup car's tires : by : > trying to use F1 braking zones, and Gordon went quick enough in a half : dozen : > laps to have made the grid at last year's USGP. As with everyone who : first : > gets in one it seems, Gordon freaked on the carbon-carbon brakes of the : > FW24, while Montoya was surprised at how much the Cup car moved around up : on : > the banking at speed. Looked like they both had a lot of fun, and it was : > nice to see that crowd goofing on the whole thing. Everyone was smiling : but : > the Williams mechanics, who all looked like they had something bad for : > lunch. But then PH would probably sack 'em if he caught them smiling... : ;-) : > : > : :

SpeedTV says 7pm eastern - a 1hr recap. "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bc8845$gder8$[email hidden]... > Sounds interesting. Do you know if that is going to be rebroadcast inprime

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> time at all? > > > "Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Messed around at lunch today and watched those guys driving each other's > > cars around the F1 course at Indy. JPM flat-spotted the Cup car's tires > by > > trying to use F1 braking zones, and Gordon went quick enough in a half > dozen > > laps to have made the grid at last year's USGP. As with everyone who > first > > gets in one it seems, Gordon freaked on the carbon-carbon brakes of the > > FW24, while Montoya was surprised at how much the Cup car moved around

up > on > > the banking at speed. Looked like they both had a lot of fun, and itwas

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> > nice to see that crowd goofing on the whole thing. Everyone was smiling > but > > the Williams mechanics, who all looked like they had something bad for > > lunch. But then PH would probably sack 'em if he caught them smiling... > ;-) > > > > > >

"Mike Portnoy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:l3NFa.5623$[email hidden]...

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> > "Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > Gordon went quick enough in a half dozen > > laps to have made the grid at last year's USGP. > > Not true the pole was a 1:10.79. The slowest car on the grid was a

1:13.81. > He needed to drop about 3 more seconds to be in last place, but still very > impressive for his first time in an F1 car! As the other Mike says, by the 107% rule he'd have made the grid. But yes, considering it was the first time he'd sat in one, not bad. Especially considering it was being televised live, so he surely didn't want to toss it away. Plus, he drove it with no seat fitting or other adjustments from how it was set up for JPM, and it was just a fun drive after all; not a test for a contract. The only changes they made for his second stint were to put some deflectors on his (non-aero) helmet after he said the wind was practically pulling the thing off his head. Montoya had Gordon's crew make changes to the Cup car since he said it was really loose on the banking. Got his attention once or twice apparently. More on topic for this NG, Bob Varsha mentioned Gordon told him he prepared for driving the Indy road course with a...computer game. Imagine that. ;-)

Mike Donnelly Jr <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

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> It's been kicked around on this side of the pond a bit, and the bench > racing conclusion is that he could make it in F1 if he wanted to. Of > course, he'd probably take quite a paycut to do so which is probably > what is stopping him. (That and talking with the now unemployed John > Andretti about his cousin's experience.) > > Could he make the jump successfully? Probably. But, look at JPM. > He's a fantastic driver, and yet he has what, 2 wins? Granted, he's > had a lot of mechanical misfortune when he's had winning > opportunities, but still, if there was someone who could take on > Shumie, I would have put some money that it would have been him. I'm > still shocked that Zanardi didnt go back and kick Shumie's butt. That > was a guy with some serious car control. Even with a slightly > inferior car, I figured he'd give Shumie a run. > > The interesting question (at least to me) would be, how would Shumie > do in a 'primative' stock car... I'd love to see that. For him to > come here though... Talk about a paycut... > > Speaking of high-priced athletes, what about that Beckham deal? (just > to throw a bit of fuel on the fire) > > Mike

I think MS had some early years running Touring cars and Sportscars. I'm sure he would adapt to Winston Cup fairly well. What he does lack is track/weather knowledge and that might handicap him some. But I suspect a good driver in F1 can be a good driver elsewhere. dave henrie

"Mike Portnoy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:l3NFa.5623$[email hidden]...

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> > "Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > Gordon went quick enough in a half dozen > > laps to have made the grid at last year's USGP. > > Not true the pole was a 1:10.79. The slowest car on the grid was a 1:13.81. > He needed to drop about 3 more seconds to be in last place, but still very > impressive for his first time in an F1 car!

Last year, the Williams drivers posted times in the mid 1:15's during the first practice, which came down to mid 1:11's by qualifying. I'm guessing after a couple of days, Jeffy would trim 3 or 4 seconds off his time.

On Thu, 12 Jun 2003 00:11:25 GMT, Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote: > I think MS had some early years running Touring cars and Sportscars. >I'm sure he would adapt to Winston Cup fairly well. What he does lack is >track/weather knowledge and that might handicap him some. But I suspect a >good driver in F1 can be a good driver elsewhere. >dave henrie Particularly after today, I'd have to agree. A good driver is a good driver. I think it would have been a bit more even if JPM had run Indy as an oval rather than as a road course. That would give us some idea of how he'd cut it in NASCAR. I had thought that having all the data acquisition information available to the drivers & engineers would erode the driver quality, but apparently that is not the case. It didn't take long for JPM to connect with Philipe Lopez and talk about the car. Nor did it take him long to adopt the terminology either. I think the real question with Shumie would be how would the "good 'ole boys" take to him. They could make his life a hell, wrecking him or they could help him out, making the transition easy.

Here you go... http://sports.yahoo.com/nascar/news?slug=gordonmontoyaswap&prov=st&type=lgns

On Wed, 11 Jun 2003 22:09:44 GMT, Mike Donnelly Jr <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Could he make the jump successfully? Probably. But, look at JPM. >He's a fantastic driver, and yet he has what, 2 wins? Granted, he's >had a lot of mechanical misfortune when he's had winning >opportunities, but still, if there was someone who could take on >Shumie, I would have put some money that it would have been him. I'm >still shocked that Zanardi didnt go back and kick Shumie's butt. That >was a guy with some serious car control. Even with a slightly >inferior car, I figured he'd give Shumie a run.

Ehhh... Go back from where? He absolutely, positively *BOMBED* in Williams in '99. With a capital b. >The interesting question (at least to me) would be, how would Shumie >do in a 'primative' stock car... I'd love to see that. For him to >come here though... Talk about a paycut... Schumacher came from sportscar racing into F1(he had Jochen Mass as teammate and mentor in the Group C Mercedes sportscar team. Another little known fact was that he raced on the nordschleife then, it was part of the group C championship!). So that wouldn't be that big a problem I would think. There was an anecdote from last year that said that Michael on vacation in Texas went to the motorspeedway there to try out the Petty experience(or something similar?) but grew tired of waiting in line... Imagine the PR-value lost there and then.

On Wed, 11 Jun 2003 22:09:44 GMT, Mike Donnelly Jr <[email hidden]> wrote: >It's been kicked around on this side of the pond a bit, and the bench >racing conclusion is that he could make it in F1 if he wanted to. Of >course, he'd probably take quite a paycut to do so which is probably >what is stopping him. (That and talking with the now unemployed John >Andretti about his cousin's experience.) Petty cut Andretti? When did this happen? Jason

jmoyer@cheml > Petty cut Andretti? When did this happen? > > Jason > This week, Christian Fittipaldi will fill the seat through the rest of the season. I would guess they will have CF full time next year in the #43.

Mike Donnelly Jr wrote:

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> > Particularly after today, I'd have to agree. A good driver is a good > driver. I think it would have been a bit more even if JPM had run > Indy as an oval rather than as a road course. That would give us some > idea of how he'd cut it in NASCAR. > > I had thought that having all the data acquisition information > available to the drivers & engineers would erode the driver quality, > but apparently that is not the case. It didn't take long for JPM to > connect with Philipe Lopez and talk about the car. Nor did it take > him long to adopt the terminology either.

Nigel Roebuck (sp, F1 hack) once asked Mario Andretti how he came to be so good in all sorts of series he entered, Mario apparently answered; "If you can drive, you can drive" Guess that about sums it up :-), both of these guys are incredibly talented and would do good in whatever racing series they chose to participate in, given a fair chance Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Mike Donnelly Jr <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]: > I'm > still shocked that Zanardi didnt go back and kick Shumie's butt. That > was a guy with some serious car control. Even with a slightly > inferior car, I figured he'd give Shumie a run. Zanardi was way slower than Schumie Jr. in the same cars. Do you imply that Ralf is much faster driver then Michael? Alex.

On Wed, 11 Jun 2003 22:09:44 GMT, Mike Donnelly Jr <[email hidden]> wrote: >Could he make the jump successfully? Probably. But, look at JPM. >He's a fantastic driver, and yet he has what, 2 wins? What do you expect? Somebody broke his fucking head. Don McCorkle

On 13 Jun 2003 01:52:20 GMT, [email hidden] (Woodie 83) wrote:

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> >On Wed, 11 Jun 2003 22:09:44 GMT, Mike Donnelly Jr ><[email hidden]> wrote: > >>Could he make the jump successfully? Probably. But, look at JPM. >>He's a fantastic driver, and yet he has what, 2 wins? > >What do you expect? Somebody broke his fucking head. > > >Don McCorkle

Congratulations! You've just managed to join Mr Fisher in the distinguished list of people on my killfile list. And you managed to do it in a single post. Normally it takes several irrelevant posts to do so. Mike

On Thu, 12 Jun 2003 18:51:46 +0200, Magnus Svensson <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>On Wed, 11 Jun 2003 22:09:44 GMT, Mike Donnelly Jr ><[email hidden]> wrote: > >>Could he make the jump successfully? Probably. But, look at JPM. >>He's a fantastic driver, and yet he has what, 2 wins? Granted, he's >>had a lot of mechanical misfortune when he's had winning >>opportunities, but still, if there was someone who could take on >>Shumie, I would have put some money that it would have been him. I'm >>still shocked that Zanardi didnt go back and kick Shumie's butt. That >>was a guy with some serious car control. Even with a slightly >>inferior car, I figured he'd give Shumie a run. > >Ehhh... Go back from where? He absolutely, positively *BOMBED* in >Williams in '99. With a capital b.

Question is: was it him or the car? As I recall, that was also when they transitioned to grooved tires as well. So, he had a huge change to overcome and if I remember, the Williams wasn't as good as it could have been. My biggest problem with F1 is if Shumie was in a Tyrell or other back grid car, he couldn't overcome the weakness of the car with superior driving skills. At best he'd get a couple of points for the team here and there. Which would bring it up a few slots in the constructors ranks, allow them to get better personell (& heavier sponsorship to fund it) and it 3-4 seasons they'd be challenging for the title. BUT, only after 2-3 seasons of building and making *better cars*. The car is the first question, then the driving skill of the driver.

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>>The interesting question (at least to me) would be, how would Shumie >>do in a 'primative' stock car... I'd love to see that. For him to >>come here though... Talk about a paycut... > >Schumacher came from sportscar racing into F1(he had Jochen Mass as >teammate and mentor in the Group C Mercedes sportscar team. Another >little known fact was that he raced on the nordschleife then, it was >part of the group C championship!). So that wouldn't be that big a >problem I would think.

Sportscars and stockcars aren't the same. They're closer that F1 & stockcars, but there isn't a european equivilent to NASCAR over there. Yet. >There was an anecdote from last year that said that Michael on >vacation in Texas went to the motorspeedway there to try out the Petty >experience(or something similar?) but grew tired of waiting in line... >Imagine the PR-value lost there and then. lol. I bet they didn't know who he was. I imagine that if he (or his agent) had called ahead, it would have gone a bit differently... When he gets tired of F1 and still has a hankering to drive, I'd say come on over and give it a serious try. Mike

On Thu, 12 Jun 2003 23:38:53 GMT, [email hidden] (alexti) wrote:

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>Mike Donnelly Jr <[email hidden]> wrote in >news:[email hidden]: > >> I'm >> still shocked that Zanardi didnt go back and kick Shumie's butt. That >> was a guy with some serious car control. Even with a slightly >> inferior car, I figured he'd give Shumie a run. >Zanardi was way slower than Schumie Jr. in the same cars. Do >you imply that Ralf is much faster driver then Michael? > >Alex.

Nope. I just figured after watching him clean the house in CART (back when those guys were good), he'd go over a start wiping the floor with Michael. Didn't happen. Pure miscalculation on my part. Mike

"Mike Donnelly Jr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On 13 Jun 2003 01:52:20 GMT, [email hidden] (Woodie 83) wrote: > > > > >On Wed, 11 Jun 2003 22:09:44 GMT, Mike Donnelly Jr > ><[email hidden]> wrote: > > > >>Could he make the jump successfully? Probably. But, look at JPM. > >>He's a fantastic driver, and yet he has what, 2 wins? > > > >What do you expect? Somebody broke his fucking head. > > > > > >Don McCorkle > > Congratulations! You've just managed to join Mr Fisher in the > distinguished list of people on my killfile list. And you managed to > do it in a single post. Normally it takes several irrelevant posts to > do so. > > Mike

Fame at last. David G Fisher >

On Fri, 13 Jun 2003 02:04:18 GMT, Mike Donnelly Jr <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>>Ehhh... Go back from where? He absolutely, positively *BOMBED* in >>Williams in '99. With a capital b. > >Question is: was it him or the car? As I recall, that was also when >they transitioned to grooved tires as well. So, he had a huge change >to overcome and if I remember, the Williams wasn't as good as it could >have been. My biggest problem with F1 is if Shumie was in a Tyrell or >other back grid car, he couldn't overcome the weakness of the car with >superior driving skills. At best he'd get a couple of points for the >team here and there. Which would bring it up a few slots in the >constructors ranks, allow them to get better personell (& heavier >sponsorship to fund it) and it 3-4 seasons they'd be challenging for >the title. BUT, only after 2-3 seasons of building and making *better >cars*. The car is the first question, then the driving skill of the >driver.

It was him, and he's among the first to admit it. Because there was another Shumacher sitting in an exactly as bad a car; Ralfie. It was true that Williams wasn't at the top of their game in '98 and '99(to say the least), they were a bit caught out by the rule changes in '98, grooved tyres et.al. But if you compare the two teammates Ralfie completely trounced poor Alessandro. Check out the European GP that year for instance: Ralf: Q 4 Race 4 Alex: Q 18(!) Race DNF Ralf outqualified Zanardi by almost _two_ whole seconds. Furthermore, Ralfie took three podiums, five fourth and three fifth places that year. Alex didn't take one single point but racked up 10 DNFs! According to Zanardi himself he couldn't get to terms with the carbon-carbon brakes and the many setup options on an F1 compared to a champcar. Williams even tried carbon-steel brakes that year to see if that would make any difference...

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>>Schumacher came from sportscar racing into F1(he had Jochen Mass as >>teammate and mentor in the Group C Mercedes sportscar team. Another >>little known fact was that he raced on the nordschleife then, it was >>part of the group C championship!). So that wouldn't be that big a >>problem I would think. > >Sportscars and stockcars aren't the same. They're closer that F1 & >stockcars, but there isn't a european equivilent to NASCAR over there. >Yet.

Well, as far as I'm concerned it is close enough. In sportscar racing the #1 issue is tyre conservation. I suppose it is in NASCAR aswell, maybe even moreso. Apart from plate tracks of course.

"Mike Donnelly Jr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Thu, 12 Jun 2003 18:51:46 +0200, Magnus Svensson > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >There was an anecdote from last year that said that Michael on > >vacation in Texas went to the motorspeedway there to try out the Petty > >experience(or something similar?) but grew tired of waiting in line... > >Imagine the PR-value lost there and then. > > lol. I bet they didn't know who he was. I imagine that if he (or his > agent) had called ahead, it would have gone a bit differently... >

I believe part of said story was the Michael purposely showed-up unannouced to avoid any special treatment. Since the wait was long that particular day, he elected to head back to wherever he was vacationing without making a scene or a big deal out of it. -jde

"Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bc8845$gder8$[email hidden]... > Sounds interesting. Do you know if that is going to be rebroadcast inprime > time at all? For those that missed the re-airs last night, I believe I saw it will be shown again during prime time next Friday. -jde

"Mike Donnelly Jr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Sportscars and stockcars aren't the same. They're closer that F1 & > stockcars, but there isn't a european equivilent to NASCAR over there. > Yet. There kinda is, it's called ASCAR. It's about as popular as NASCAR is outside the US, (ie) nobody cares.

LOL :)

On Fri, 13 Jun 2003 16:02:35 +0100, "Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>"Mike Donnelly Jr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> Sportscars and stockcars aren't the same. They're closer that F1 & >> stockcars, but there isn't a european equivilent to NASCAR over there. >> Yet. > >There kinda is, it's called ASCAR. It's about as popular as NASCAR is >outside the US, (ie) nobody cares. >

Okay, looks like I sit corrected. It's unfortunate that it's not picked up over there, but, this isn't a perfect world. Mike

i agree!! if you have those instincts that make you a good driver in one series i think that with practice those same instincts could be developed in another series. "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > Mike Donnelly Jr wrote: > > > > Particularly after today, I'd have to agree. A good driver is a good > > driver. I think it would have been a bit more even if JPM had run > > Indy as an oval rather than as a road course. That would give us some > > idea of how he'd cut it in NASCAR. > > > > I had thought that having all the data acquisition information > > available to the drivers & engineers would erode the driver quality, > > but apparently that is not the case. It didn't take long for JPM to > > connect with Philipe Lopez and talk about the car. Nor did it take > > him long to adopt the terminology either. > > Nigel Roebuck (sp, F1 hack) once asked Mario Andretti how he came to be > so good in all sorts of series he entered, Mario apparently answered; > "If you can drive, you can drive" > > Guess that about sums it up :-), both of these guys are incredibly > talented and would do good in whatever racing series they chose to > participate in, given a fair chance > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > "goyl at nettx dot no" > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

"Mike Donnelly Jr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Fri, 13 Jun 2003 16:02:35 +0100, "Nick" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >"Mike Donnelly Jr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > >> Sportscars and stockcars aren't the same. They're closer that F1 & > >> stockcars, but there isn't a european equivilent to NASCAR over there. > >> Yet. > > > >There kinda is, it's called ASCAR. It's about as popular as NASCAR is > >outside the US, (ie) nobody cares. > > > > Okay, looks like I sit corrected. It's unfortunate that it's not > picked up over there, but, this isn't a perfect world. > > Mike >

Correction, now it's called something like "Days of Thunder Racing" or something equally lame. They race Rockingham and Lausitz over and over and over...

Sounds like they need more real tracks over there... :) Of course, given that going in circles seems to be an American/Canadian thing, that might not be such a good idea either. Mike On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 19:25:46 +0100, "Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >"Mike Donnelly Jr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> On Fri, 13 Jun 2003 16:02:35 +0100, "Nick" <[email hidden]> >> wrote: >> >> >"Mike Donnelly Jr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> >news:[email hidden]... >> >> Sportscars and stockcars aren't the same. They're closer that F1 & >> >> stockcars, but there isn't a european equivilent to NASCAR over there. >> >> Yet. >> > >> >There kinda is, it's called ASCAR. It's about as popular as NASCAR is >> >outside the US, (ie) nobody cares. >> > >> >> Okay, looks like I sit corrected. It's unfortunate that it's not >> picked up over there, but, this isn't a perfect world. >> >> Mike >> > >Correction, now it's called something like "Days of Thunder Racing" or >something equally lame. They race Rockingham and Lausitz over and over and >over... > >

On Fri, 13 Jun 2003 02:04:18 GMT, Mike Donnelly Jr <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>My biggest problem with F1 is if Shumie was in a Tyrell or >other back grid car, he couldn't overcome the weakness of the car with >superior driving skills. At best he'd get a couple of points for the >team here and there. Which would bring it up a few slots in the >constructors ranks, allow them to get better personell (& heavier >sponsorship to fund it) and it 3-4 seasons they'd be challenging for >the title. BUT, only after 2-3 seasons of building and making *better >cars*. The car is the first question, then the driving skill of the >driver.

As it is anywhere outside one-make series - there are haves and have-nots. However, Scumacher was immediately obvious when he was in a Jordan, as Senna was instantly noticable in a Toleman. The driver makes a huge difference. Just look at the Monaco winners over the years - Senna, Prost and Schumacher have dominated the last couple of decades at that track.

errr do you remember the shape Ferrari was in when Michael got there? Not Tyrell material, but he certainly made that team an unbeatable force. (I'm not a fan of Michael's, but you have to give credit where credit is due). "Mike Donnelly Jr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... . My biggest problem with F1 is if Shumie was in a Tyrell or

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> other back grid car, he couldn't overcome the weakness of the car with > superior driving skills. At best he'd get a couple of points for the > team here and there. Which would bring it up a few slots in the > constructors ranks, allow them to get better personell (& heavier > sponsorship to fund it) and it 3-4 seasons they'd be challenging for > the title. BUT, only after 2-3 seasons of building and making *better > cars*. The car is the first question, then the driving skill of the > driver.

Yes, they had problems, but, unlike Tyrell, they have a storied past to help them recruit people (like Michael) and they have a budget that can overcome the costs of doing business. It did take them a bit of time to come to their present, near unbeatable form. Part of that was getting the right people in the right places. I stand by my original assertation that if Michael was put into the Tyrell tommorrow, he'd not win a race the rest of the year - despite being the best driver there. It would take a few years of his being their driver to get everything in order to make Tyrell a power. That's the way it is. On Sat, 21 Jun 2003 04:25:09 GMT, "gddd" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>errr do you remember the shape Ferrari was in when Michael got there? Not >Tyrell material, but he certainly made that team an unbeatable force. (I'm >not a fan of Michael's, but you have to give credit where credit is due). > > >"Mike Donnelly Jr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >. My biggest problem with F1 is if Shumie was in a Tyrell or >> other back grid car, he couldn't overcome the weakness of the car with >> superior driving skills. At best he'd get a couple of points for the >> team here and there. Which would bring it up a few slots in the >> constructors ranks, allow them to get better personell (& heavier >> sponsorship to fund it) and it 3-4 seasons they'd be challenging for >> the title. BUT, only after 2-3 seasons of building and making *better >> cars*. The car is the first question, then the driving skill of the >> driver. >

"Mike Donnelly Jr" wrote...

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> Yes, they had problems, but, unlike Tyrell, they have a storied > past to help them recruit people (like Michael) and they have a > budget that can overcome the costs of doing business. It did > take them a bit of time to come to their present, near unbeatable > form. Part of that was getting the right people in the right places. > > I stand by my original assertation that if Michael was put into the > Tyrell tommorrow, he'd not win a race the rest of the year - > despite being the best driver there. It would take a few years of > his being their driver to get everything in order to make Tyrell a > power. That's the way it is.

I'm going to be a pedant and point out that Tyrrell is no longer an F1 team (and hasn't been for more than a decade). The remnants of the team were bought by Stewart, which then became Jaguar I believe. Jan. =---

On Sat, 21 Jun 2003 10:04:46 GMT, "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>"Mike Donnelly Jr" wrote... >> Yes, they had problems, but, unlike Tyrell, they have a storied >> past to help them recruit people (like Michael) and they have a >> budget that can overcome the costs of doing business. It did >> take them a bit of time to come to their present, near unbeatable >> form. Part of that was getting the right people in the right places. >> >> I stand by my original assertation that if Michael was put into the >> Tyrell tommorrow, he'd not win a race the rest of the year - >> despite being the best driver there. It would take a few years of >> his being their driver to get everything in order to make Tyrell a >> power. That's the way it is. > >I'm going to be a pedant and point out that Tyrrell is no longer an F1 team >(and hasn't been for more than a decade). The remnants of the team were >bought by Stewart, which then became Jaguar I believe. > >Jan. >=---

I'll be even more of a pendant (!), and point out that Tyrrell was bought out by British American Tobacco and became what is now the BAR team. Stewart started from scratch, and, yes, eventually became Jaguar.

Sorry. Okay, replace Tyrell with Jaguar. They're still in the same position on the grid and in the points. The tradition continues. On Sat, 21 Jun 2003 10:04:46 GMT, "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>"Mike Donnelly Jr" wrote... >> Yes, they had problems, but, unlike Tyrell, they have a storied >> past to help them recruit people (like Michael) and they have a >> budget that can overcome the costs of doing business. It did >> take them a bit of time to come to their present, near unbeatable >> form. Part of that was getting the right people in the right places. >> >> I stand by my original assertation that if Michael was put into the >> Tyrell tommorrow, he'd not win a race the rest of the year - >> despite being the best driver there. It would take a few years of >> his being their driver to get everything in order to make Tyrell a >> power. That's the way it is. > >I'm going to be a pedant and point out that Tyrrell is no longer an F1 team >(and hasn't been for more than a decade). The remnants of the team were >bought by Stewart, which then became Jaguar I believe. > >Jan. >=--- >

You're right, I misunderstood your original post. No driver in the present-form F1 could do this, either now or 50 years ago. But also, in F1, at least with the original 10-6-4-3-2-1 scoring, scoring just one point is an accomplishment. Michael impressed well back in 1992 with the Benneton racing against Senna and Prost. PS Ayrton Senna was the best F1 driver ever imo. "Mike Donnelly Jr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Yes, they had problems, but, unlike Tyrell, they have a storied past > to help them recruit people (like Michael) and they have a budget that > can overcome the costs of doing business. It did take them a bit of > time to come to their present, near unbeatable form. Part of that was > getting the right people in the right places. > > I stand by my original assertation that if Michael was put into the > Tyrell tommorrow, he'd not win a race the rest of the year - despite > being the best driver there. It would take a few years of his being > their driver to get everything in order to make Tyrell a power. > That's the way it is. > > On Sat, 21 Jun 2003 04:25:09 GMT, "gddd" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >errr do you remember the shape Ferrari was in when Michael got there?

Not > >Tyrell material, but he certainly made that team an unbeatable force.(I'm

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> >not a fan of Michael's, but you have to give credit where credit is due). > > > > > >"Mike Donnelly Jr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > >. My biggest problem with F1 is if Shumie was in a Tyrell or > >> other back grid car, he couldn't overcome the weakness of the car with > >> superior driving skills. At best he'd get a couple of points for the > >> team here and there. Which would bring it up a few slots in the > >> constructors ranks, allow them to get better personell (& heavier > >> sponsorship to fund it) and it 3-4 seasons they'd be challenging for > >> the title. BUT, only after 2-3 seasons of building and making *better > >> cars*. The car is the first question, then the driving skill of the > >> driver. > > >