F1 Rule 150 *spoiler*

My interpretation of rule 150, for those who watched today's race and are unsure of the wording of the rule and want to make up your own mind. By the way CAPS are used to emphasise words, not to shout ;-). 2003 F1 Sporting Regulations 19-03-2003 150) If a car stops during the race (except under Article 142c) and d), it must be removed from the track as quickly as possible so that its presence does not constitute a danger or hinder other competitors. If the driver is unable to drive the car from a dangerous position, it shall be the duty of the marshals to assist him. If any such assistance results in the engine starting and the driver rejoining the race, the car will be excluded from the results of the race. Pro-Ferrari argument: Michael Schumacher was unable to drive the car from a dangerous position, so the marshals assisted him. This assistance did not result in the engine starting, as it was already running, so therefore the car should not be excluded from the race. Anti-Ferrari argument: The car stopped during the race, and therefore must be removed from the track as quickly as possible (S1). If THE driver (specific, refers to the previous sentence) is unable to drive THE car (specific) from a dangerous position, the marshals should assist him (to remove the car from the track as quickly as possible - implied from the first sentence). If any such assistance results in the engine starting (negative) and the driver rejoining the race (from the previous sentence, the marshalls should ONLY be assisting the REMOVAL of the car from the track), the car should be excluded. As can be seen, the pro-Ferrari argument is a straight reading of the rules, whereas the anti-Ferrari argument relies on some specific interpretation of each and every word in the rule. It's pretty heavy, but legal documents always are. Apparent flaw in the Anti-Ferrari argument: Basically, the use of 'the' in the second sentence implies that the sentence refers to the same car as in the first sentence, which implies that it is concerned with the driver of the car being able to drive the car from a dangerous position WITH THE ONLY AIM OF removing it from the track as quickly as possible, NOT rejoining the race. Of course, this begs the question 'If the driver can move the car from a dangerous position under his own power, then why is the driver unable to rejoin the race under his own power?'. To me, this severs the implicit connection between the first two sentences, meaning that the marshalls ARE allowed to assist the car to do something other than remove it from the track, such as assist it to rejoin the race. If the marshalls ARE allowed to assist a car to rejoin the race, then the third sentence only excludes a car from the race IF AND ONLY IF the marshalls assistance results in the restarting of the engine, which did not occur. Well, that's my interpretation of the rule, anyway.

"Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bdmtpg$ukbnu$[email hidden]... > My interpretation of rule 150, for those who watched today's race and are > unsure of the wording of the rule and want to make up your own mind. Bythe > way CAPS are used to emphasise words, not to shout ;-). >snip< Any other driver would have abandoned their car and sacrificed a few WC points..MS, saw there was nothing to gain from walking away, so he carried on. That's the difference. Hakkinen sobs behind trees...Schumacher ploughs on regardless. How about the ITV ruling that say's commentators "MUST always be anti -MS at all times and no matter what the circumstances". ? Martin Brundle is a disgrace. His constant slagging off of one of the most successful F1 drivers of all time is as ridiculous as his support for the bozo, Coulthard.

"Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote in > > Well, that's my interpretation of the rule, anyway. > > > Cart used to have such rules. THen they figured if they can get a car restarted and moving without harming the race...then go for it. My feeling is F1 should mandate a sealed onboard starting system(so teams can't mess with it) and let a driver get restarted if he stalls. If the car is beached, and a crane is required then end his day. But if all he needs is a push to get clear, then by all means Heave Ho Boys! (Except in Japan of course) dave henrie

My take on it is, if the williams team said it was ok then it must be. If anyones gonna complain it will be them dan

Nick, To be fair, didn't mika downshift to 1st, thus spinning himself, and was unable to keep from losing the engine...? had he kept it but been beached like shuey today, who's to know whether he would have waited for a push... it was also a much more critical point in the season/championship race, so i fail further to see the relevance of your mika jibe. "redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bdmv2v$uotim$[email hidden]... > > "Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:bdmtpg$ukbnu$[email hidden]... > > My interpretation of rule 150, for those who watched today's race andare

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> > unsure of the wording of the rule and want to make up your own mind. By > the > > way CAPS are used to emphasise words, not to shout ;-). > >snip< > > Any other driver would have abandoned their car and sacrificed a few WC > points..MS, saw there was nothing to gain from walking away, so he carried > on. That's the difference. Hakkinen sobs behind trees...Schumacher ploughs > on regardless.

<snip>

"Jon G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bdn37a$ghk$[email hidden]...

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> Nick, > > To be fair, didn't mika downshift to 1st, thus spinning himself, and was > unable to keep from losing the engine...? had he kept it but been beached > like shuey today, who's to know whether he would have waited for a push... > > it was also a much more critical point in the season/championship race, so

i > fail further to see the relevance of your mika jib No jibe..just pointing out why MS is still top of the tree. Raikonen looks good, though. Hopefully he will combine Mika's talent with MS strength of character. Mika always gave up too quickly.

That means Italian or German marshalls might not be so keen to push out a Williams or McLaren. If that was JPM, those Marshalls would probably have picked up the car on the mini crane that was there and lifted it away.. Were now going to have marshalls deciding races depending on who gets stuck. -- Steve "In the old days, the Irish used to blow up our pubs, now they refit them tastefully" The Pub Landlord. "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Cart used to have such rules. THen they figured if they can get a car > restarted and moving without harming the race...then go for it. > My feeling is F1 should mandate a sealed onboard starting system(so teams > can't mess with it) and let a driver get restarted if he stalls. If the > car is beached, and a crane is required then end his day. But if all he > needs is a push to get clear, then by all means Heave Ho Boys! > (Except in Japan of course) > > dave henrie

"Nick" <[email hidden]> skrev i melding news:bdmtpg$ukbnu$[email hidden]... Ever heard of rec.autos.sports.f1 ?? Take this crap to the correct newsgroups please! OR atleast have the courtesy to mark it 'Off Topic' in the header! Arrgghh!!

"Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3eff1fc7$[email hidden]...

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> > "Nick" <[email hidden]> skrev i melding > news:bdmtpg$ukbnu$[email hidden]... > > > Ever heard of rec.autos.sports.f1 ?? > > Take this crap to the correct newsgroups please! > > OR atleast have the courtesy to mark it 'Off Topic' in the header! > > Arrgghh!!

Oh my gosh you poor fellow

"Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3eff1fc7$[email hidden]...

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> > "Nick" <[email hidden]> skrev i melding > news:bdmtpg$ukbnu$[email hidden]... > > > Ever heard of rec.autos.sports.f1 ?? > > Take this crap to the correct newsgroups please! > > OR atleast have the courtesy to mark it 'Off Topic' in the header! > > Arrgghh!!

Sorry Mr Nascar Fan

As long as the car didn't stall, MS was legal in what he did. On to more important and interesting things. Congrats RS!!! Beat your teammate in qualifying AGAIN despite being on the heavier fuel load (again). That's 5 out of 6, and 10 out of the last 15 (with two poles to JPM's 0). Wow. I guess it's RS who is, "the fastest man over one lap" and not JPM. Second now in wins over the past three seasons behind MS. JPM has just two. Expanded his points lead over JPM for this season. As teammates, RS has more points overall. A better qualifying record. Better overall race lap times. A lot more wins, and doesn't run into people nearly as often. People said after season one, and even season two, that all JPM needed was more time in F1. Sorry, he's falling further behind RS, not getting faster. He's a million miles away from the silly predictions that he would destroy RS. Time for Williams to look for a new teammate for RS. David Michael Ralf Schumacher Fisher "Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bdmtpg$ukbnu$[email hidden]... > My interpretation of rule 150, for those who watched today's race and are > unsure of the wording of the rule and want to make up your own mind. Bythe

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> way CAPS are used to emphasise words, not to shout ;-). > > 2003 F1 Sporting Regulations 19-03-2003 > 150) If a car stops during the race (except under Article 142c) and d), it > must be removed from the track as quickly as possible so that its presence > does not constitute a danger or hinder other competitors. If the driver is > unable to drive the car from a dangerous position, it shall be the duty of > the marshals to assist him. If any such assistance results in the engine > starting and the driver rejoining the race, the car will be excluded from > the results of the race. > > Pro-Ferrari argument: > > Michael Schumacher was unable to drive the car from a dangerous position,

so

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> the marshals assisted him. This assistance did not result in the engine > starting, as it was already running, so therefore the car should not be > excluded from the race. > > Anti-Ferrari argument: > > The car stopped during the race, and therefore must be removed from the > track as quickly as possible (S1). If THE driver (specific, refers to the > previous sentence) is unable to drive THE car (specific) from a dangerous > position, the marshals should assist him (to remove the car from the track > as quickly as possible - implied from the first sentence). If any such > assistance results in the engine starting (negative) and the driver > rejoining the race (from the previous sentence, the marshalls should ONLY

be > assisting the REMOVAL of the car from the track), the car should be > excluded. > > As can be seen, the pro-Ferrari argument is a straight reading of therules, > whereas the anti-Ferrari argument relies on some specific interpretationof > each and every word in the rule. It's pretty heavy, but legal documents > always are. > > Apparent flaw in the Anti-Ferrari argument: > > Basically, the use of 'the' in the second sentence implies that thesentence > refers to the same car as in the first sentence, which implies that it is > concerned with the driver of the car being able to drive the car from a > dangerous position WITH THE ONLY AIM OF removing it from the track as > quickly as possible, NOT rejoining the race. Of course, this begs the > question 'If the driver can move the car from a dangerous position underhis > own power, then why is the driver unable to rejoin the race under his own > power?'. To me, this severs the implicit connection between the first two > sentences, meaning that the marshalls ARE allowed to assist the car to do > something other than remove it from the track, such as assist it to rejoin > the race. If the marshalls ARE allowed to assist a car to rejoin the race, > then the third sentence only excludes a car from the race IF AND ONLY IFthe > marshalls assistance results in the restarting of the engine, which didnot > occur. > > Well, that's my interpretation of the rule, anyway. > >

On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 15:36:41 +0100, "Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >Anti-Ferrari argument: > >The car stopped during the race, and therefore must be removed from the >track as quickly as possible (S1). If THE driver (specific, refers to the >previous sentence) is unable to drive THE car (specific) from a dangerous >position, the marshals should assist him (to remove the car from the track >as quickly as possible - implied from the first sentence). If any such >assistance results in the engine starting (negative) and the driver >rejoining the race (from the previous sentence, the marshalls should ONLY be >assisting the REMOVAL of the car from the track), the car should be >excluded. >

Don't forget that one of the people helping MS was NOT a marshal...

Wasnt the "F1 spoiler" in the title enough to give you a clue that the thread was OT or are you not bright enough to figure that out by yourself? -- Steve "In the old days, the Irish used to blow up our pubs, now they refit them tastefully" The Pub Landlord. "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3eff1fc7$[email hidden]... > > OR atleast have the courtesy to mark it 'Off Topic' in the header! > > Arrgghh!! > > >

On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 19:22:23 +0200, "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Ever heard of rec.autos.sports.f1 ?? > >Take this crap to the correct newsgroups please! > >OR atleast have the courtesy to mark it 'Off Topic' in the header! Could you please do that when making off topic replies? Thx. Jason

"Jon G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bdn37a$ghk$[email hidden]... > Nick, Wrong guy, buddy <g>

"Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3eff1fc7$[email hidden]...

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> > "Nick" <[email hidden]> skrev i melding > news:bdmtpg$ukbnu$[email hidden]... > > > Ever heard of rec.autos.sports.f1 ?? > > Take this crap to the correct newsgroups please! > > OR atleast have the courtesy to mark it 'Off Topic' in the header! > > Arrgghh!!

Okay, sorry, will do that in future. Surely seeing F1 *spoiler* in the subject would have allowed you to avoid this *crap*? <g>

"David G Fisher" wrote... > <snip> JPM runs down MS, challenges on the outside and passes in a move that can't be faulted (MS tries to stave off JPM but bungles it). ---> "Whoa!! -Did you see that?!" RS has better start courtesy of clean side of the track to claim 2nd and finishes 1st after KM's egine expires. ---> <yawn> Jan. =---

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:GELLa.5426$[email hidden]... > "David G Fisher" wrote... > > <snip> > > JPM runs down MS, challenges on the outside and passes in a move thatcan't > be faulted (MS tries to stave off JPM but bungles it). ---> "Whoa!! -Didyou > see that?!" > > RS has better start courtesy of clean side of the track to claim 2nd and > finishes 1st after KM's egine expires. ---> <yawn> > > Jan. KR was on a much lighter fuel load which enabled him to open up that lead, and RS cut it in half in just the last handful of laps before his pit stop. ****JPM followed RB for 36 laps without coming close to attempting any kind of a pass.**** Where was the "racer" then? Lol. Was it the "racer's" strategy to drop 19 seconds behind RS by the end of the race? Never heard of that one before. Face facts. He only got past MS because MS's car suddenly dropped a second off the pace due to bad tires. Of course he passed him. If MS didn't have a bad set of tires, that wouldn't of happened. JPM would of languished way behind MS for the rest of the race, just like he did behind RB. All JPM had to do was wait a few seconds and pass MS on one of the long straights, but instead he did something dumb and tried a pass on the outside at the Dunlop curve, squeezed MS more than necessary, and there was an accident. But hey, JPM fans are desperate to find anything to cheer about with the way he's failed to be anything more than a nat buzzing around MS's face, and RS has beaten him by every measure (qualifying, points, race speed, wins). If you were a full second per lap faster than me in yesterday's RASCAR race, would you have made an extremely tight pass on me in that tight right T3 (or is it T4) on the outside, or waited until some spot which was safer? David G Fisher

In article <[email hidden]>, Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> writes:

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> Cart used to have such rules. THen they figured if they can get a car >restarted and moving without harming the race...then go for it. >My feeling is F1 should mandate a sealed onboard starting system(so teams >can't mess with it) and let a driver get restarted if he stalls. If the >car is beached, and a crane is required then end his day. But if all he >needs is a push to get clear, then by all means Heave Ho Boys! >(Except in Japan of course)

Why not in Japan? Eldred -- Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my homepage) Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <bdmv2v$uotim$[email hidden]>, "redTed" <[email hidden]> writes: >Any other driver would have abandoned their car and sacrificed a few WC >points..MS, saw there was nothing to gain from walking away, so he carried >on. That's the difference. Hakkinen sobs behind trees...Schumacher ploughs >on regardless. But Hakkinen stalled the car - game over. He would have had nothing to gain by STAYING... Eldred -- Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my homepage) Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

eldred (Except in Japan of course) > > Why not in Japan? > > Eldred An over-eager Course Worker got mowed down a few years ago...he ran out to assist a car in the kitty litter and another car also ran off and knocked him into the air. I don't remember though, if he survived. dave henrie

"David G Fisher" wrote... > <snip> > KR was on a much lighter fuel load which enabled him to > open up that lead, and RS cut it in half in just the > last handful of laps before his pit stop. Catching is one thing, passing another. > ****JPM followed RB for 36 laps without coming close to > attempting any kind of a pass.**** > > Where was the "racer" then? Lol. Was it the "racer's" > strategy to drop 19 seconds behind RS by the end of the > race? Never heard of that one before. Do I honestly need to explain this? For Pete's sake Dave, show some common sense. He was going to pass RB on pitstop strategy anyway, so there was no need to take risks. Pitstops had completed when he came up on MS. For all intents and purposes RS had a clean track all race long, JPM had to deal with both Ferraris. I think 19s is a fair reflection of that. > Face facts. <snip> No question, MS presented JPM with an opportunity to pass and he went for it. I'm quite sure both driver car combinations were equal enough in this race for that not to happen had MS not slackened his pace. But I disagree with the pass on a straight being a forgone conclusion. Even on bad tyres you can go fast in a straight line. > But hey, JPM fans are desperate to find anything to > cheer about with the way he's failed to be anything > more than a nat buzzing around MS's face, and RS has > beaten him by every measure (qualifying, points, race > speed, wins). I couldn't care less either way, I just enjoy winding you up. <g> > If you were a full second per lap faster than me in > yesterday's RASCAR race, would you have made an > extremely tight pass on me in that tight right T3 (or > is it T4) on the outside, or waited until some spot > which was safer? No, I'd just wait for you to use up your stuff and pass at my leisure, but that's my temperament. I'm not a very gifted but agressive Columbian. Jan. =---

He survived with a broken leg, this is exactly why pushing shouldnt be allowed. All you need is a car to spin off on oil, another one follows it 10 seconds later while the 1st one is being pushed back on the track and, well, you get the idea. Make it illegal to get marshalls assistance and you increase safety and stop the chance of marshalls deciding a race. -- Steve "In the old days, the Irish used to blow up our pubs, now they refit them tastefully" The Pub Landlord. "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > eldred > (Except in Japan of course) > > > > Why not in Japan? > > > > Eldred > > An over-eager Course Worker got mowed down a few years ago...he ran out > to assist a car in the kitty litter and another car also ran off and > knocked him into the air. I don't remember though, if he survived. > > dave henrie > > >

Hi Jan, since you say you're not a fan of either driver, I dare to add that... > ...RS had a clean track all race long, JPM had to > deal with both Ferraris. I think 19s is a fair reflection of that. ...one could also say the 19s are a fair reflection of RS doing a better job than JPM all weekend long - better Q'ing, passing the car ahead of him at the start of the race instead of getting passed by the car behind him... :) Achim

"Joachim Trensz" wrote...

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> Hi Jan, > > since you say you're not a fan of either driver, I dare > to add that... > > > <snip> > ...one could also say the 19s are a fair reflection of RS > doing a better job than JPM all weekend long

I could say that, but it wouldn't wind up the RS fanboys. <g> > - better Q'ing, passing the car ahead of him at the start > of the race instead of getting passed by the car behind > him... :) A product of the better qualifying position, for sure. 2nd, 4th, 6th and 8th were all passed by those behind them, but on the clean side of the track. But, fair enough... "the easiest way pass somebody is to outqualify him, the 2nd easiest way is to have a better start." -Carroll Smith. Jan. =---

> No jibe..just pointing out why MS is still top of the tree. > Raikonen looks good, though. Hopefully he will combine Mika's talent withMS > strength of character. > Mika always gave up too quickly. > Like when ? Mika was interesting. He did not crack under pressure but in the absence of it he sometimes loss concentration, like in Monza and Imola. He did not gave up at that SPA race were he did that impresive pass over MS. Yes, in Monza he downshift to 1st and the engine was stalled already before the car came to a halt. Had never seen him so emotional. Cheers. Fer

"Fernando Deutsch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bdpk0a$uff6u$[email hidden]... > > No jibe..just pointing out why MS is still top of the tree. > > Raikonen looks good, though. Hopefully he will combine Mika's talentwith

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> MS > > strength of character. > > Mika always gave up too quickly. > > > > Like when ? >

On two occasions at least, I've seen him drive sedately around a circuit because he was having a poor race..Only when it was made clear that some others were dropping out, did he speed knowing that a few points were there for the taking. Not the mark of a great "racer".

"Edgecrusher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bdnqse$usfqi$[email hidden]... > Wasnt the "F1 spoiler" in the title enough to give you a clue that thethread was OT or are you not bright enough to figure that out > by yourself? > The OT request is a valid one, many users have filters set to weed out our ramblings. Courtesy isn't demanded, but it does help. We should try to remember the whole group when posting. dave (except kiteflying-crapwagon-drivers)henrie :)

In article <[email hidden]>, Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> writes: > An over-eager Course Worker got mowed down a few years ago...he ran out >to assist a car in the kitty litter and another car also ran off and >knocked him into the air. I don't remember though, if he survived. > Oh, MAN... :-( Eldred -- Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my homepage) Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:5TULa.5897$[email hidden]...

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> "David G Fisher" wrote... > > <snip> > > KR was on a much lighter fuel load which enabled him to > > open up that lead, and RS cut it in half in just the > > last handful of laps before his pit stop. > > Catching is one thing, passing another. > > > ****JPM followed RB for 36 laps without coming close to > > attempting any kind of a pass.**** > > > > Where was the "racer" then? Lol. Was it the "racer's" > > strategy to drop 19 seconds behind RS by the end of the > > race? Never heard of that one before. > > Do I honestly need to explain this? For Pete's sake Dave, show some common > sense. He was going to pass RB on pitstop strategy anyway, so there was no > need to take risks. Pitstops had completed when he came up on MS.

Well he sure as hell didn't pass him on pit stop strategy at the first round of stops, so how could he of been able to predict the future and no for absolute certaintity he would of been able to do so during the second round? His gap to RB was the same for the entire 35 laps. That's crap Jan. He couldn't pass RB because unlike MS, RB's car wasn't a second off the pace. JPM has no magical passing abilities. It was only after he had already been following RB around for half the race that he and Williams realized they had a chance to squeeze out ahead at the second round of stops. RB had balance problems, and that's why JPM eventually got past. JPM never knew at lap 5, 10, 17, 23, 28, or 30 that he was definitely going to get by RB at the second round of stops. So why didn't he pass him earlier? Why did he just follow RB lap after lap after lap? > For all intents and purposes RS had a clean track all race long, JPM hadto > deal with both Ferraris. I think 19s is a fair reflection of that. RB wasn't holding him up. JPM was just hanging on 1 to 1.5 seconds back for most of those 35 laps. RS increased the lead even after JPM got past RB. JPM reeled in MS in a flash because MS's tires were so bad. MS didn't hold him up at all. Fact is, JPM was just slower the whole race, despite starting out on a lower fuel load as well.

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> > Face facts. <snip> > > No question, MS presented JPM with an opportunity to pass and he went for > it. I'm quite sure both driver car combinations were equal enough in this > race for that not to happen had MS not slackened his pace. But I disagree > with the pass on a straight being a forgone conclusion. Even on bad tyres > you can go fast in a straight line.

JPM was able to get along side MS heading down to the Dunlop curve. Of course he could of gotten along side and then past MS on one of the long straights.

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> > But hey, JPM fans are desperate to find anything to > > cheer about with the way he's failed to be anything > > more than a nat buzzing around MS's face, and RS has > > beaten him by every measure (qualifying, points, race > > speed, wins). > > I couldn't care less either way, I just enjoy winding you up. <g>

What do you think my post was intended to do?

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> > If you were a full second per lap faster than me in > > yesterday's RASCAR race, would you have made an > > extremely tight pass on me in that tight right T3 (or > > is it T4) on the outside, or waited until some spot > > which was safer? > > No, I'd just wait for you to use up your stuff and pass at my leisure, but > that's my temperament. I'm not a very gifted but agressive Columbian.

Aggressive? Don't see it. Poor decision maker? Yes. Wrecker? Definitely. If he's so gifted, why has he been beaten by his teammate in every way? Is RS even more gifted? David G Fisher

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <[email hidden]>, Dave Henrie > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > An over-eager Course Worker got mowed down a few years ago...he ranout > >to assist a car in the kitty litter and another car also ran off and > >knocked him into the air. I don't remember though, if he survived. > > > > Oh, MAN... :-( And don't ask about the over-eager fire marshal at Kyalami back in the day...

"David G Fisher" wrote... > > <snip> > Well he sure as hell didn't pass him on pit stop strategy at > the first round of stops, so how could he of been able to > predict the future and no for absolute certaintity he would > of been able to do so during the second round? He didn't, but the people at Williams have got computers. Says so on the side of their cars, if you hadn't noticed. > His gap to RB was the same for the entire 35 laps. That's > crap Jan. He couldn't pass RB because unlike MS, RB's car > wasn't a second off the pace. JPM has no magical passing > abilities. Read my reply again, I never suggested he had. It would have been very difficult if not impossible to pass RB on the track, so they made the most of what they had: consistent tyres over 20 laps. JPM knows whether he's using up his stuff to hang on and, likewise, how much of his stuff RB is using.

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> It was only after he had already been following RB around > for half the race that he and Williams realized they had > a chance to squeeze out ahead at the second round of > stops. RB had balance problems, and that's why JPM > eventually got past. JPM never knew at lap 5, 10, 17, 23, > 28, or 30 that he was definitely going to get by RB at the > second round of stops. So why didn't he pass him earlier? > Why did he just follow RB lap after lap after lap?

Perhaps they weren't prepared to max out the engine mapping this early in the race. A DNF at this race because of an engine failure would have been bad press at this venue. Perhaps *he* had a bad set of tyres or a flat spot from the lock-up in qualifying. But, honestly, I don't know. Does Montoya need to justify not passing a competitor to us? Obviously he could go around 110% lap after lap, but there's no way either the tyres, the car or Montoya himself can keep that up for an entire race. He has to pick his moments and, together with the team, I think he picked them well. > > <snip> > RB wasn't holding him up. JPM was just hanging on 1 to 1.5 > seconds back for most of those 35 laps. Indeed... no need to disturb the airflow over the front wing and kill those front tyres he'll be needing to push passed RB. > RS increased the lead even after JPM got past RB. JPM > reeled in MS in a flash because MS's tires were so bad. > MS didn't hold him up at all. Fact is, JPM was just > slower the whole race, despite starting out on a lower > fuel load as well. So? -His teammate (a German) is leading the GP (in Germany) and he is secure in 2nd place. BMW will not appreciate racing between the teammates here, especially if it leads to an accident or even just mechanical problems for either car. JPM is thinking job security at this point. > > <snip> > JPM was able to get along side MS heading down to the > Dunlop curve. Of course he could of gotten along side > and then past MS on one of the long straights. Not necessarily. Depends how much lateral tyre capacity is called for in the turn leading up to the straight. F1 cars, like all cars, corner and stop better than they accellerate. A tyre that no longer has the capacity to deliver what is required to do the former, might still allow maximum accelleration. You'll notice JPM ran up at the exit of a fast bend and carried his speed advantage through the kink leading up to the Dunlop turn. > > <snip> > > What do you think my post was intended to do? Wind people who don't like rabid RS fans up, I guess? <g> > > <snip> > Aggressive? Don't see it. Hehehe... I take it you didn't see the video of the paddock incident with the cameraman? > Poor decision maker? Yes. The poor decision maker in the incident with MS was MS. JPM didn't give MS and inch, true, but then MS is the kind of guy you don't give an inch to. Because you can bet your life on him taking it (and the next foot if he sees the opportunity). > Wrecker? Definitely. Can't make omelet without breaking eggs. This is what F1 drivers do... breaking someone else's car slowly in order to win a race. > If he's so gifted, why has he been beaten by his > teammate in every way? Is RS even more gifted? F1's are too fragile for the "CART" JPM and he's not caught on fast enough. Perhaps he won't before the Williams stops being a competitive car or he's fired. Perhaps he never will. We'll have to wait and see. To answer your second question: no, RS is, IMO, less of a natural than his older brother and JPM. Jan. =---

David, - Ralf started 3rd. - He passed MS to move into 2nd because he was on the good side of the grid (almost everybody on the left made places on the start). - Kimi retired, moving Ralf into 1st. Compare that to passing the best driver in a series which is notorious for its overtaking problems. By the way, once again, well done to David Coulthard for yet another excuse for getting the sack from McLaren. - He started 9th - He gained 4 places due to 2 spins and 2 retirements - ITV (aka the DC fan club) praise his 'excellent' drive to 5th place - He came up behind a wounded car, knew that not being able to pass it would be a very bad reflection on him as a driver, so he had a go and screwed up. - Crashed out, giving his teammates' championship rival another valuable point Wow, looking at the first 2, that could almost be a 'Ralf Schumacher' performance. Nick (actually a Ralf fan, but can't resist winding you up <g>) Seriously, I'd wait until the end of the season before you get your stats out. I noticed how your qualifying stats start just after JPMs 7 poles last year. If you want to compare *proper* stats, I can dig out all the practice (4 sessions per event) and warmup times, qualifying times, plus best splits, fastest race laps, top speed trap figures, plus chassis numbers used, air and track temperatures, and all sorts of other data which gives a much fairer reflection on the drivers' relative performance than you give yourself. I'd offer to do it for one 2002 race of your choice, but you'd pick one where Ralf was better anyway, so it wouldn't make much difference, and I'm definitely not doing it for all 17 events. I don't have the time, nor inclination.

redTed wrote: > > How about the ITV ruling that say's commentators "MUST always be anti -MS > at all times and no matter what the circumstances". ? Martin Brundle is a > disgrace. His constant slagging off of one of the most successful F1 drivers > of all time is as ridiculous as his support for the bozo, Coulthard. > Quite agreed Ted. Generally I quite like Brundle's comments, but it seems he just can't stand to give Michael any credit. But it's the bigmouth James Allen that really pisses me off... why does he feel the need to shout louder than Murray? Glenn -- ---------------------- Remove NOSPAM to reply

In article <bdsk80$10f6hu$[email hidden]>, "Nick" <[email hidden]> writes: >And don't ask about the over-eager fire marshal at Kyalami back in the >day... > No, I know about that one. Hit by Tom Pryce, both died... :-( Eldred -- Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my homepage) Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:be4cb4$161uk$[email hidden]... > David, > > - Ralf started 3rd. > - He passed MS to move into 2nd because he was on the good side of thegrid > (almost everybody on the left made places on the start). > - Kimi retired, moving Ralf into 1st. KR was on 6 laps lighter fuel load to start the race. RS cut his lead in half in just a handful of laps before KR retired. > Compare that to passing the best driver in a series which is notorious for > its overtaking problems. I read yesterday that MS was 2 seconds slower than JPM due to his bad tires on the lap JPM passed him. Nothing to admire there. > Wow, looking at the first 2, that could almost be a 'Ralf Schumacher' > performance. > > Nick (actually a Ralf fan, but can't resist winding you up <g>) That's what I was trying to do to some people here, but not enough took the bait. :-) > Seriously, I'd wait until the end of the season before you get your stats > out. I noticed how your qualifying stats start just after JPMs 7 poleslast > year. Here's their total stats as teammates (taken from Brian Lawrence at rasf1) Wins: Ralf 5 JPM 2 Points: Ralf 134 JPM 120 Qual: Ralf 26 JPM 17 10 out of the last 15 for RS. 5 out of the last 6. 6-3 for the season. RS also has the fastest overall race lap times for 2001 and 2002. Don't know about 2003. RS also has the second most wins in F1 over these past three seasons. David G Fisher

In article <[email hidden]>, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> writes: >Here's their total stats as teammates (taken from Brian Lawrence at rasf1) > >Wins: Ralf 5 JPM 2 >Points: Ralf 134 JPM 120 >Qual: Ralf 26 JPM 17 Interesting. What does the "Qual" stat represent? >10 out of the last 15 for RS. 5 out of the last 6. 6-3 for the season. RS >also has the fastest overall race lap times for 2001 and 2002. Don't know >about 2003. RS also has the second most wins in F1 over these past three >seasons. Ok, so RS has better results, but I'll be honest and say that I just like JPM better. I also think that JPM has a lot of unrealized potential... Eldred -- Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my homepage) Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <[email hidden]>, "David G Fisher" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Here's their total stats as teammates (taken from Brian Lawrence atrasf1) > > > >Wins: Ralf 5 JPM 2 > >Points: Ralf 134 JPM 120 > >Qual: Ralf 26 JPM 17 > > Interesting. What does the "Qual" stat represent? Head to head qualifying results. RS has outqualified JPM in 26 out of their 43 races as teammates. > >10 out of the last 15 for RS. 5 out of the last 6. 6-3 for the season. RS > >also has the fastest overall race lap times for 2001 and 2002. Don't know > >about 2003. RS also has the second most wins in F1 over these past three > >seasons. > > Ok, so RS has better results, but I'll be honest and say that I just likeJPM > better. I also think that JPM has a lot of unrealized potential... > > Eldred The truth is, I don't really dislike JPM at all. Seems like an ok guy. RS has a very, very nice life and certainly doesn't need me defending him. :-) I (and many other F1 fans) are simply giving it back to some JPM fans who ripped RS apart (and us for defending him) from the moment JPM joined Williams. The predictions they made (including MS's being dethroned) haven't come close to coming true, and now they need to be spanked. :-) David G Fisher

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Here's their total stats as teammates (taken from Brian Lawrence at rasf1) > > Wins: Ralf 5 JPM 2 > Points: Ralf 134 JPM 120 > Qual: Ralf 26 JPM 17 > > 10 out of the last 15 for RS. 5 out of the last 6. 6-3 for the season. RS > also has the fastest overall race lap times for 2001 and 2002. Don't know > about 2003. RS also has the second most wins in F1 over these past three > seasons.

Yes, but Ralf has been in F1 since 1997 (2 years with Jordan, before 4 years with Williams), and JPM has been in F1 since 2001 (just the 2 full seasons). So for the points to be 134-120, despite Ralf having 4 full years more experience in F1, means that they are pretty damn close. Also, not only was JPM learning F1 in 2001, he was also driving a chassis which had a natural balance he just didn't get on with at all. By contrast, Ralf likes that balance (that's the reason the FW23 was made in that way - Ralf was sticking in the team, while Button was moving on). The 2002 and 2003 chassis have been more of a compromise between the two driving styles, which is much fairer to both drivers (not to mention a lot easier to change setups on the T-car). Just one more thing, JPM beat RS on fastest race lap in 2002. Hehe, that's enough of that for the time being <g> It's a shame that a lot of people assumed JPM was going to blow everybody away when he came to F1 (mostly Americans with minimal F1 knowledge, it has to be said). Okay so he was CART champion, but so was Alessandro Zanardi, who raced in F1, went to CART and won the title (and became known as Alex), then came back to F1 with high expectations and blew out. Admittedly he was driving an developmental chassis with a rebadged Renault (Mecachrome) engine, but he was consistently worse than his team mate and the rest of the field. I remember watching JPM in F3000 at Monte-Carlo, waaaay back in... jeez I can't remember the year. It was hilarious. He hit the wall about three times, and while limping home with a damaged car in 2nd place, his teammate tried to pass him coming out of what was then known as Loewe's Hairpin, and JPM calmly moved over and put him in the wall! He's come a long way since then, averaging one pass on MS every 3.6 races for one seasons worth of F1, but I still think Ralf is the better driver, and finally he is beginning to show it with some excellent drives.

What's with all the initials? I haven't heard so many abbreviations since the last time I attended a Navy briefing! :) -Larry "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:GELLa.5426$[email hidden]... > > "David G Fisher" wrote... > > > <snip> > > > > JPM runs down MS, challenges on the outside and passes in a move that > can't > > be faulted (MS tries to stave off JPM but bungles it). ---> "Whoa!! -Did > you > > see that?!" > > > > RS has better start courtesy of clean side of the track to claim 2nd and > > finishes 1st after KM's egine expires. ---> <yawn> > > > > Jan. > > KR was on a much lighter fuel load which enabled him to open up that lead, > and RS cut it in half in just the last handful of laps before his pit

stop. > > ****JPM followed RB for 36 laps without coming close to attempting anykind

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> of a pass.**** > > Where was the "racer" then? Lol. Was it the "racer's" strategy to drop 19 > seconds behind RS by the end of the race? Never heard of that one before. > > Face facts. He only got past MS because MS's car suddenly dropped a second > off the pace due to bad tires. Of course he passed him. If MS didn't have

a > bad set of tires, that wouldn't of happened. JPM would of languished way > behind MS for the rest of the race, just like he did behind RB. All JPMhad > to do was wait a few seconds and pass MS on one of the long straights, but > instead he did something dumb and tried a pass on the outside at theDunlop > curve, squeezed MS more than necessary, and there was an accident. > > But hey, JPM fans are desperate to find anything to cheer about with theway > he's failed to be anything more than a nat buzzing around MS's face, andRS > has beaten him by every measure (qualifying, points, race speed, wins). > > If you were a full second per lap faster than me in yesterday's RASCARrace, > would you have made an extremely tight pass on me in that tight right T3(or

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> is it T4) on the outside, or waited until some spot which was safer? > > David G Fisher > > > >

"Larry" wrote... > What's with all the initials? I haven't heard so many > abbreviations since the last time I attended a Navy > briefing! :) It's "de rigeur" when discussing F1 and it saves on typing. Jan. =---

"Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:dQZOa.7$N%3.5@lakeread01... > What's with all the initials? Well, when you NASCAR guys talk about things like 'wedge' and 'tape' and 'Kevin Harvick', it makes all us F1 fans go "huh?". It's our way of getting you back, along with the 'roundabout' thing. <g>

STFU Larry. :-) DGF "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:dQZOa.7$N%3.5@lakeread01...

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> What's with all the initials? I haven't heard so many abbreviations since > the last time I attended a Navy briefing! > > :) > > -Larry > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:GELLa.5426$[email hidden]... > > > "David G Fisher" wrote... > > > > <snip> > > > > > > JPM runs down MS, challenges on the outside and passes in a move that > > can't > > > be faulted (MS tries to stave off JPM but bungles it). --->

"Whoa!! -Did > > you > > > see that?!" > > > > > > RS has better start courtesy of clean side of the track to claim 2ndand > > > finishes 1st after KM's egine expires. ---> <yawn> > > > > > > Jan. > > > > KR was on a much lighter fuel load which enabled him to open up thatlead,

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> > and RS cut it in half in just the last handful of laps before his pit > stop. > > > > ****JPM followed RB for 36 laps without coming close to attempting any > kind > > of a pass.**** > > > > Where was the "racer" then? Lol. Was it the "racer's" strategy to drop

19 > > seconds behind RS by the end of the race? Never heard of that onebefore. > > > > Face facts. He only got past MS because MS's car suddenly dropped asecond > > off the pace due to bad tires. Of course he passed him. If MS didn'thave > a > > bad set of tires, that wouldn't of happened. JPM would of languished way > > behind MS for the rest of the race, just like he did behind RB. All JPM > had > > to do was wait a few seconds and pass MS on one of the long straights,but

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> > instead he did something dumb and tried a pass on the outside at the > Dunlop > > curve, squeezed MS more than necessary, and there was an accident. > > > > But hey, JPM fans are desperate to find anything to cheer about with the > way > > he's failed to be anything more than a nat buzzing around MS's face, and > RS > > has beaten him by every measure (qualifying, points, race speed, wins). > > > > If you were a full second per lap faster than me in yesterday's RASCAR > race, > > would you have made an extremely tight pass on me in that tight right T3 > (or > > is it T4) on the outside, or waited until some spot which was safer? > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > > >