ECCI is coming back!

Hi Folks: Great news. I had a chat with Andy yesterday, he called to let me know my CDS2 was being shipped, with a new internal wiring harness. I asked what would be needed to acquire a CDS 4000 as a commercial customer, how many people I would need to go in with me to qualify. He told me not to bother. He told me to watch ECCI's web page http://www.ecci.net/ for an announcement of ECCI's new consumer product this month. He said the unit would be under $1000 and, it was the best unit ECCI has ever built. He was jazzed. Me to. Larry

But have they done away with the 1949 Ford tractor pedals?? ;-) Larry Lindstrom wrote:

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>Hi Folks: > > Great news. > > I had a chat with Andy yesterday, he called to let me >know my CDS2 was being shipped, with a new internal wiring >harness. > > I asked what would be needed to acquire a CDS 4000 as a >commercial customer, how many people I would need to go in >with me to qualify. He told me not to bother. > > He told me to watch ECCI's web page http://www.ecci.net/ >for an announcement of ECCI's new consumer product this month. > > He said the unit would be under $1000 and, it was the best >unit ECCI has ever built. > > He was jazzed. > > Me to. > > Larry > >

-- Ric Seyler Online Racing: RicSeyler GPL Handicap 6.35 [email hidden] http://www.pcola.gulf.net/~ricseyler -------------------------------------- "Homer no function beer well without." - H.J. Simpson

"Larry Lindstrom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I had a chat with Andy yesterday, he called to let me > know my CDS2 was being shipped, with a new internal wiring > harness. Why did you need the new internal wiring harness? A curious CDS2 owner. Brandon

hey now...I like my tractor pedals, besides if I ever give up sim racing, I can use them for a boat anchor! "Ric Seyler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> But have they done away with the 1949 Ford tractor pedals?? ;-) > > Larry Lindstrom wrote: > > >Hi Folks: > > > > Great news. > > > > I had a chat with Andy yesterday, he called to let me > >know my CDS2 was being shipped, with a new internal wiring > >harness. > > > > I asked what would be needed to acquire a CDS 4000 as a > >commercial customer, how many people I would need to go in > >with me to qualify. He told me not to bother. > > > > He told me to watch ECCI's web page http://www.ecci.net/ > >for an announcement of ECCI's new consumer product this month. > > > > He said the unit would be under $1000 and, it was the best > >unit ECCI has ever built. > > > > He was jazzed. > > > > Me to. > > > > Larry > > > > > > -- > Ric Seyler > Online Racing: RicSeyler > GPL Handicap 6.35 > [email hidden] > http://www.pcola.gulf.net/~ricseyler > -------------------------------------- > "Homer no function beer well without." > - H.J. Simpson > > >

Ric Seyler wrote: > > But have they done away with the 1949 Ford tractor pedals?? ;-) Hi Ric: Andy is proud of his new wheel, but I've told you all that he said I could. We didn't talk about the shape or layout of the pedals. I don't know what the pedals on a 1948 Ford tractor look like. I've never had problems with the roller pedals on the CDS2, and I picked up an ultra-cheap Ligitech Wingman so I could race while the wheel was in the shop, and I had no problem with the pedals for that either. I drive my cars, real and simulated, with one foot for both gas and brake, pivoting the forward part of my foot around my heel as I go from accelerator to brake. I'm don't know if the pedals for the new unit look like those on the ECCI customer page http://www.ecci.net/consumer01a.htm. If it looks like the pedals pictured on that page, I'm wondering if I can use this technique. We'll see. Larry

Brandon Bergenroth wrote:

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> > "Larry Lindstrom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > I had a chat with Andy yesterday, he called to let me > > know my CDS2 was being shipped, with a new internal wiring > > harness. > > Why did you need the new internal wiring harness? > > A curious CDS2 owner. > Brandon

Hi Brandon: For the last several months the up-shift button would work fine for most of whatever track I was on. Then it would fail consistently on fast left turns. This happened for either of the right buttons. There was break in the wires of the harness that would separate when I turned the wheel through a range. Don't worry. I've been told "We've never seen a problem like this before" by countless customer service techies. Andy said the same thing about seeing any problem with the internal harness on the CDS2. If you look at the reel used to feed the wires to the buttons on the twisting wheel, you can see that it is extremely gentle. Larry

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > I drive my cars, real and simulated, with one foot for > both gas and brake, pivoting the forward part of my foot > around my heel as I go from accelerator to brake. FREAK! HERETIC! BURN HIM! BURRRRRRRRN HIM! -- MRSisson LOAD "GPL",8,1 RUN

"Larry Lindstrom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > Why did you need the new internal wiring harness? > Don't worry. I've been told "We've never seen a problem > like this before" by countless customer service techies. Thanks Larry, you're right, that's kind of weird. I've been abusing mine for just over 6 years now with nothing but pot replacements. <knock on wood> I would like to get some stiffer springs in there though, I'd like a little more tension when I turn the wheel. Brandon

On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 16:16:48 GMT, Larry Lindstrom <[email hidden]> wrote: I would buy a high quality force feedback wheel. I know many of you don't think high of them, but I feel it gives a quality and feel of how the car is handling that you don't get with non-ff wheels.

Some people (like myself) do not like the feel of a FF wheel I do not like the notchiness that I feel with them and to me they just feel unnatural I have tried the Act-Labs Force RS, the Momo and the Logittech.. returned them all immediately. "extractor @lycos.com" <=removespam=> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 16:16:48 GMT, Larry Lindstrom <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > > I would buy a high quality force feedback wheel. I know many of you > don't think high of them, but I feel it gives a quality and feel of > how the car is handling that you don't get with non-ff wheels.

"extractor @lycos.com" wrote:

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> > On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 16:16:48 GMT, Larry Lindstrom <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > I would buy a high quality force feedback wheel. I know many of you > don't think high of them, but I feel it gives a quality and feel of > how the car is handling that you don't get with non-ff wheels.

Hi Extractor: My only experience with force feedback wheels are in video arcades. They weren't bad. I've never used an FF wheel for a PC sim. What FF wheel/sim combinations do you think of as high quality? What kind of information, like nearing limits of adhesion, is transmitted? Larry

Fantastic that they're getting back to the consumer market! I got the same news from John last night, and I really feel this is an important step for the sim-racing community. I know many people don't have the money for wheels like these, but for those who have, it's good to see some more healthy competition in the top end of the market. It's good for ECCI, it's good for BRD and it's good for TSW, and finally: it's the sim-racer who wins. I'm very curious about the new wheel, after having tried almost every high-quality sim-racing controller on the planet. FWIW: If you'd like to read my view on driving with a HQ controller as opposed to the plastic toys, point your browser to http://erl.racesimcentral.com/editorial1.htm. Bring 'em on! --- Joeri J. Cox European Racing League - Taming The Tracks Since April 2000 http://erl.racesimcentral.com ERL is proudly sponsored by BallRacing Developments, Ltd. http://www.interactiveracing.com "Larry Lindstrom" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht news:[email hidden]...

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> Hi Folks: > > Great news. > > I had a chat with Andy yesterday, he called to let me > know my CDS2 was being shipped, with a new internal wiring > harness. > > I asked what would be needed to acquire a CDS 4000 as a > commercial customer, how many people I would need to go in > with me to qualify. He told me not to bother. > > He told me to watch ECCI's web page http://www.ecci.net/ > for an announcement of ECCI's new consumer product this month. > > He said the unit would be under $1000 and, it was the best > unit ECCI has ever built. > > He was jazzed. > > Me to. > > Larry

I hate to toot Microsoft, but I will. they are getting cheaper and to tell the truth, there are some things that can't be beaten, not pots, no twitchy's in calibration, not in 3 years so far. pedals are simply adequate though. nothing to write home about I guess, but I like em, I just race sock footed or slipper footed, if you wear shoes, IMHO you loose some sensitivity as the pedals dont have big springs in either pedal, but I dont chase them all under the desk either. XP has to have USB version BTW, I thin win2k same. "Larry Lindstrom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> "extractor @lycos.com" wrote: > > > > On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 16:16:48 GMT, Larry Lindstrom <[email hidden]> > > wrote: > > > > I would buy a high quality force feedback wheel. I know many of you > > don't think high of them, but I feel it gives a quality and feel of > > how the car is handling that you don't get with non-ff wheels. > > Hi Extractor: > > My only experience with force feedback wheels are > in video arcades. They weren't bad. I've never used > an FF wheel for a PC sim. > > What FF wheel/sim combinations do you think of as > high quality? > > What kind of information, like nearing limits of > adhesion, is transmitted? > > Larry

Joeri Cox wrote: > > FWIW: If you'd like to read my view on driving with a HQ controller as > opposed to the plastic toys, point your browser to > http://erl.racesimcentral.com/editorial1.htm. The Logi Momo has loads of metal inside it! AND a computer chip. I'll take computer controlled force feedback over a silly spring reflex, any day!

"Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<ieVMa.27217$Xm3.5584@sccrnsc02>... > > I do not like the notchiness that I feel with them and to me they just feel > unnatural > > I have tried the Act-Labs Force RS, the Momo and the Logittech.. returned > them all immediately. The notchiness, with the Act-Labs wheel, anyway, does diminish a great deal over time, to the point that you dont notice it when there are forces at work. I used to love FF, and still do for stuff like Rally Trophy, but have yet to be even basically satisfied with the way it is working for NR2003. I can usually tell what the car is doing based on yaw and sound, and more and more I find myself turning FF off as it has become a distraction. I dont have the time or patience to try to sort it all out. I'd rather be racing. And now, I am really noticing the notches. And so, am considering going the non-FF route, at least for this sim. $1000 bucks though... yeow. Hard to justify before the CFO when you have as many other hobbies as I do. cheers, Gerald

I persoanlly like the good old original logitech wingman red as a wheel only. It used cables, and had very subtle force feedback, and was sliky smooth no notchiness. The pedals on the other hand were crap, and didn' t have enough throw. I think the act labs pedals are decent, especially when the upgraded the pedals and springs to reduce breakage. Of course ecci, tsw pedals are sweet, but expensive. I belive and I'm sure others will disagress that loosof traction, surface texture can be felt in a ff wheel. These are everyday things you can feel when driving your own car on the road. For those who use sound, you are probably getting a later response to loos of traction than if oyu had ff, and using visual clues is probably a delayed response than to transmission of the sense through the wheel. My opinion. My setup, not great but gets the job done Logitech wingman orignal red wheel ACT Labs performance pedals with clutch ACT Labs USB shifter On Thu, 03 Jul 2003 13:26:29 GMT, Larry Lindstrom <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>"extractor @lycos.com" wrote: >> >> On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 16:16:48 GMT, Larry Lindstrom <[email hidden]> >> wrote: >> >> I would buy a high quality force feedback wheel. I know many of you >> don't think high of them, but I feel it gives a quality and feel of >> how the car is handling that you don't get with non-ff wheels. > >Hi Extractor: > > My only experience with force feedback wheels are >in video arcades. They weren't bad. I've never used >an FF wheel for a PC sim. > > What FF wheel/sim combinations do you think of as >high quality? > > What kind of information, like nearing limits of >adhesion, is transmitted? > > Larry

but when you consider fluid damping (via ECCI) you something between the heavy tire feel and rack & pinion steering. All force feedback I have tried feels arcadeish. Anyone making commentary on ECCI products should find one to try first. If in Texas, give me a shout. "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Joeri Cox wrote: > > > > > FWIW: If you'd like to read my view on driving with a HQ controller as > > opposed to the plastic toys, point your browser to > > http://erl.racesimcentral.com/editorial1.htm. > > > The Logi Momo has loads of metal inside it! AND a computer chip. I'll > take computer controlled force feedback over a silly spring reflex, any

day! >

Those 'tractor pedals' are excellent. Their advantage over regular style pedals is that you can control the pedal position more precisely and faster than 'regular style' pedals allow you to. I've been using CH Pro Pedals ever since I purchased pedals for the first time (7 or 8 years ago?), but your mention of the tractor pedals made me look at the ECCI pages and I'm now in the process of ordering them, if we can find a way to connect them to my wheel :-) but I'm confident, the guys as ECCI seem to be very knowledgeable and helpful. Achim "Ric Seyler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > But have they done away with the 1949 Ford tractor pedals?? ;-)...

Rush wrote: > but when you consider fluid damping (via ECCI) you something between the > heavy tire feel and rack & pinion steering. All force feedback I have tried > feels arcadeish. Does fluid damping resistance change with speed? No. Therefore it is unrealistic, imo. > > Anyone making commentary on ECCI products should find one to try first. If > in Texas, give me a shout. I've tried one, didn't like it. The pedals were unlike anything you would encounter in a real race car. They cannot be used for heel & toe so therefore they fall into the arcade/toy category, imo. Gerry

FF is "realistic"? He-he-he. Right. Maybe in replicating the feel of a 1920's era Ford delivery truck with 500,000 miles on it, a chunk of the flywheel missing, and a few broken wheel spokes to boot. If the steering wheel in my car shook, jerked, rattled, rolled, and ground like every FF wheel I have owned has (and I have laying around here one (at least!) of just about every FF wheel made), I would immediately pull over to the side of the road and call for a tow for fear of having broken some major component of my steering or suspension. Oh well, this is just imho, I guess its just a matter of whatever gets your motor running. Or maybe there is something wrong with all the cars I have driven because they have had such smooth, consistent steering. KH "Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Rush wrote: > > but when you consider fluid damping (via ECCI) you something between the > > heavy tire feel and rack & pinion steering. All force feedback I havetried

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> > feels arcadeish. > > Does fluid damping resistance change with speed? > > No. > > Therefore it is unrealistic, imo. > > > > > Anyone making commentary on ECCI products should find one to try first.

If

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> > in Texas, give me a shout. > > > I've tried one, didn't like it. The pedals were unlike anything you > would encounter in a real race car. They cannot be used for heel & toe > so therefore they fall into the arcade/toy category, imo. > > Gerry >

How much for just the pedals Achim? "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:be4dpv$163qt$[email hidden]... > Those 'tractor pedals' are excellent. Their advantage over regular style > pedals is that you can control the pedal position more precisely andfaster

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> than 'regular style' pedals allow you to. > > I've been using CH Pro Pedals ever since I purchased pedals for the first > time (7 or 8 years ago?), but your mention of the tractor pedals made me > look at the ECCI pages and I'm now in the process of ordering them, if we > can find a way to connect them to my wheel :-) but I'm confident, the guys > as ECCI seem to be very knowledgeable and helpful. > > Achim > > > > "Ric Seyler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > But have they done away with the 1949 Ford tractor pedals?? ;-) > ... > >

Karl Heinz wrote:

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> FF is "realistic"? > > He-he-he. > > Right. Maybe in replicating the feel of a 1920's era Ford delivery truck > with 500,000 miles on it, a chunk of the flywheel missing, and a few broken > wheel spokes to boot. > > If the steering wheel in my car shook, jerked, rattled, rolled, and ground > like every FF wheel I have owned has (and I have laying around here one (at > least!) of just about every FF wheel made), I would immediately pull over to > the side of the road and call for a tow for fear of having broken some major > component of my steering or suspension.

So how do you think a racing car wheel feels when it's being driven at over 150mph? Smooth as silk? > > Oh well, this is just imho, I guess its just a matter of whatever gets your > motor running. Or maybe there is something wrong with all the cars I have > driven because they have had such smooth, consistent steering. So the wheel in your car feels like it's spring centred then?

> So how do you think a racing car wheel feels when it's being driven at > over 150mph? Smooth as silk? > >Well, I've done 130mph in a Honda Civic and I can tell you one thing: that car is not made for that kind of speeds. Downhill on the German highway it did reach it though :-) But still, steering felt a lot more like a fluid damped ECCI system than like a piece of plastic being shaked by a bunch of electronics. > > > So the wheel in your car feels like it's spring centred then? >'Spring centered' doesn't even come close to describing the feeling of a fluid damped ECCI system. Yes, springs are involved (192 lbs of them!). But that's where the similarity to a usual spring centered wheel ends. It's easy to say 'spring centered' isn't realistic. However, when talking in terms of how the wheel is functioning on a technical level, nothing can be described as realistic. Neither 'spring centered', nor 'a bunch of electronics'. In the end what it all comes down to, is the feeling of the total package. And to know the feeling, you must have tried it first. There is NO other way. I'm sure you have not tried fluid damped steering. Because if you had, you'd have owned it yourself already. :-) Have a nice day! --- Joeri J. Cox European Racing League - Taming The Tracks Since April 2000 http://erl.racesimcentral.com ERL is proudly sponsored by BallRacing Developments, Ltd. http://www.interactiveracing.com

In article <[email hidden]>, Gerry Aitken <[email hidden]> writes: >Does fluid damping resistance change with speed? > >No. > >Therefore it is unrealistic, imo. >Does a real car's steering shaft go into a plastic box full of gravel? No. Therefore every force feedback wheel I've tried is unrealistic. > >I've tried one, didn't like it. The pedals were unlike anything you >would encounter in a real race car. They cannot be used for heel & toe >so therefore they fall into the arcade/toy category, imo. >This would be news to both my heels and my toes. Sure hope they don't read this. Don McCorkle

Fluid damping does change with corning because it working with the spring/cam dymanics. I run the heavyest spings (all 3) and high preloads, and hardest fluid damping ratio pulley ECCI provides. After 100 laps at Bristol, my arms are totally pumped and I am sweating even with a fan blowing on me. Do you get that from FF? "Woodie 83" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <[email hidden]>, > Gerry Aitken <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Does fluid damping resistance change with speed? > > > >No. > > > >Therefore it is unrealistic, imo. > > > Does a real car's steering shaft go into a plastic box full of gravel? > No. > Therefore every force feedback wheel I've tried is unrealistic. > > > >I've tried one, didn't like it. The pedals were unlike anything you > >would encounter in a real race car. They cannot be used for heel & toe > >so therefore they fall into the arcade/toy category, imo. > > > This would be news to both my heels and my toes. Sure hope they don't

read > this. > > > Don McCorkle >

That and more, as FF provides information about what the car and especially the front wheels are currently doing, just like a real car's steering wheel. It is essential, though, that it is a good FF wheel, that the game uses FF effects in a sensible way, and that the user sets the FF parameters properly for his wheel. Very often, when one of these conditions is not met, what you feel at the wheel is just useless flutter. But if the above conditions are met, FF is very useful and adds to the realism of the simulation. It is btw also essential that you get used to the wheel some in order to learn to properly interpret the feedback you receive. That's just like in a real car - when you get a new car, you need a few hours of practice before you can take it to the limit, partly because you don't know how it behaves at the limit, but partly also because you don't understand the car's feedback optimally in the beginning. Achim "Rush" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:wNCNa.27339$[email hidden]... ... > Do you get that from FF?

Joachim Trensz wrote:

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> > That and more, as FF provides information about what the car and especially > the front wheels are currently doing, just like a real car's steering wheel. > > It is essential, though, that it is a good FF wheel, that the game uses FF > effects in a sensible way, and that the user sets the FF parameters properly > for his wheel. > > Very often, when one of these conditions is not met, what you feel at the > wheel is just useless flutter. But if the above conditions are met, FF is > very useful and adds to the realism of the simulation. > > It is btw also essential that you get used to the wheel some in order to > learn to properly interpret the feedback you receive. That's just like in a > real car - when you get a new car, you need a few hours of practice before > you can take it to the limit, partly because you don't know how it behaves > at the limit, but partly also because you don't understand the car's > feedback optimally in the beginning.

Pffft, like you know the first thing about how a car behaves on the track, slowass Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Karl Heinz wrote:

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> FF is "realistic"? > > He-he-he. > > Right. Maybe in replicating the feel of a 1920's era Ford delivery > truck with 500,000 miles on it, a chunk of the flywheel missing, and > a few broken wheel spokes to boot. > > If the steering wheel in my car shook, jerked, rattled, rolled, and > ground like every FF wheel I have owned has (and I have laying around > here one (at least!) of just about every FF wheel made), I would > immediately pull over to the side of the road and call for a tow for > fear of having broken some major component of my steering or > suspension. > > Oh well, this is just imho, I guess its just a matter of whatever > gets your motor running. Or maybe there is something wrong with all > the cars I have driven because they have had such smooth, consistent > steering. > > KH

You're just pissed cause you spent a thousand dollars on a wheel and it doesn't even have force feedback ;) I'm Just kidding :) You may be doing something wrong with the FF wheels, mine doesn't "shake, jerk, rattle, roll, and ground" I get feedback as to the amount of grip I have by the weight (or lack of) in the steering, with a vibration when driving over kerbs in F1 (they're serrated so you'd expect some shake) You're also comparing it with what you feel in a standard roadcar instead of what you'd feel in a racing car. The roadcar is set-up for comfort, it has soft suspension and power steering to make a supple easy drive. A racecar on the other hand has hard suspension and most don't have FF so you'll feel every little bump through the steering wheel. Maybe the effects we feel in a FF wheel are slightly pronounced compared to what you'd get in a real racecar, unfortunately, we (as sim drivers) don't have any other form of the physical feedback that you'd get driving a racecar, so I can live with that. At the other extreme, all non FF wheels give us absolutely no feedback so we're missing out on information that is available to increase the immersion and possibly for some people an increase in speed or consistency (Personally I find I'm more consistent with FF on and the speed is about the same). Of course, everyone is different so what works for me could very well be crap to you, and vice versa. -- Ian P <email invalid due to spammers>

...which is why I'm just as entitled to give lectures as everyone else in here <g> Achim "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... ... > Pffft, like you know the first thing about how a car behaves on the > track, slowass

Joachim Trensz wrote: > > ...which is why I'm just as entitled to give lectures > as everyone else in here <g> LOLOL Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

$199 US "Despiser" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:TytNa.229$[email hidden]...

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> How much for just the pedals Achim? > > "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:be4dpv$163qt$[email hidden]... > > Those 'tractor pedals' are excellent. Their advantage over regular style > > pedals is that you can control the pedal position more precisely and > faster > > than 'regular style' pedals allow you to. > > > > I've been using CH Pro Pedals ever since I purchased pedals for the

first > > time (7 or 8 years ago?), but your mention of the tractor pedals made me > > look at the ECCI pages and I'm now in the process of ordering them, ifwe > > can find a way to connect them to my wheel :-) but I'm confident, theguys

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> > as ECCI seem to be very knowledgeable and helpful. > > > > Achim > > > > > > > > "Ric Seyler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > But have they done away with the 1949 Ford tractor pedals?? ;-) > > ... > > > > > >

On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 16:16:48 GMT, Larry Lindstrom <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> I asked what would be needed to acquire a CDS 4000 as a >commercial customer, how many people I would need to go in >with me to qualify. He told me not to bother. > > He told me to watch ECCI's web page http://www.ecci.net/ >for an announcement of ECCI's new consumer product this month. > > He said the unit would be under $1000 and, it was the best >unit ECCI has ever built.

Has there been any further announcement on this? John

Hi John, They're definitely up to something. I've been in heavy contact with them abt. their E3000-series "Trackstar," a marvellous set of $200 pedals. I've always maintained that pedals are more important than the wheel, particularly in sims which allow brake lock-up. (Being able to feather the throttle in sims that allow you to bust the rear wheels loose with the loud pedal is also a Very Good Thing.) ECCI is working on an adapter so's the E3000 will work with the LWFF (aka "Ol' Red"). They already work with Logi's MOMO wheels (both models), the MS Sidewinder wheel (now discontinued), and a console wheel (the ThrustMaster unit for the PS2, I believe). Achim has a set of these pedals for his ball-bearing LWFF conversion and loves 'em (ask him). The new ECCI project may involve a FF wheel, maybe for PCs, maybe for consoles. (I'd believe the former before I'd give credence to the latter.) As to acquiring a CDS4000, I've seen them go on eBay for under $500. I've seen yer reluctance to get into N2003. Just do it. I don't mean the ovals (which I can't stand myself), but there are now almost 30 road courses and a couple of fledgling N2003 "roadie" leagues. The best reason to try Cup cars on road courses: the physics model (and most importantly, the tire model) is precisely what would have been the underpinnings of GPL2. (Yes, John, there was a GPL2...even if it didn't get the corporate green light.) BTW, with N2003, far more than GPL, it pays to have FF. Like the tire model, N2003's FF model is so much more advanced. With GPL (and a lot of other sims), the FF just gives you the sensation of feedback. With N2003, FF transmits a ton of useful information along with the tactile experience. --Steve Smith "John Wallace" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 16:16:48 GMT, Larry Lindstrom <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > > I asked what would be needed to acquire a CDS 4000 as a > >commercial customer, how many people I would need to go in > >with me to qualify. He told me not to bother. > > > > He told me to watch ECCI's web page http://www.ecci.net/ > >for an announcement of ECCI's new consumer product this month. > > > > He said the unit would be under $1000 and, it was the best > >unit ECCI has ever built. > > Has there been any further announcement on this? > > John