MS Sidewinder Wheel software ?

Right, against better judgment I picked up one of these the other day, I needed something small and compact to attach to my desk here at home as my regular wheel and pedals are too bulky to fit Running WinXP the software that accompanied the wheel flatly refuses to install, it was ver 1.0, right, head on over to MS support site, ver 3.02, cool, DL, install and.....That's also for W98, ok.... Over to the support again, read the FAQ, ah hah, WinXP users should use ver 4.0, ok, cool, except....I can't find it, I've now spent the better part of an hour doing various searches and can't find ver 4.0 anywhere, can anyone help a fellow sim racer in distress ? Also....what the eff is Z rotation ? Welcome to wonderful world of new and advanced technology eh, I miss my old analogue wheel and pedals already :-/ Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

If you restart your computer THEN plug your wheel into a USB port then Win XP will load the necessary drivers from its file database. AD

Goy, I just use the default software that comes with XP. The Z rotation is just another axis. If you need any other settings just email me. Pete "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > Right, against better judgment I picked up one of these the other day, I > needed something small and compact to attach to my desk here at home as > my regular wheel and pedals are too bulky to fit > > Running WinXP the software that accompanied the wheel flatly refuses to > install, it was ver 1.0, right, head on over to MS support site, ver > 3.02, cool, DL, install and.....That's also for W98, ok.... > > Over to the support again, read the FAQ, ah hah, WinXP users should use > ver 4.0, ok, cool, except....I can't find it, I've now spent the better > part of an hour doing various searches and can't find ver 4.0 anywhere, > can anyone help a fellow sim racer in distress ? > > Also....what the eff is Z rotation ? > > Welcome to wonderful world of new and advanced technology eh, I miss my > old analogue wheel and pedals already :-/ > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > "goyl at nettx dot no" > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

Aidee wrote: > > If you restart your computer THEN plug your wheel into a USB port then Win > XP will load the necessary drivers from its file database. Right....should have been clearer, WinXP finds the wheel, that's not the problem, the problem is that I can't use the software to map buttons and whatever, every support article on MS tells me I need ver 4.0, but ver 3.02 is the only one available for DL that I can find Thx for the answer though Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Goy Larsen wrote:

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> Aidee wrote: >> >> If you restart your computer THEN plug your wheel into a USB port >> then Win XP will load the necessary drivers from its file database. > > Right....should have been clearer, WinXP finds the wheel, that's not > the problem, the problem is that I can't use the software to map > buttons and whatever, every support article on MS tells me I need ver > 4.0, but ver > 3.02 is the only one available for DL that I can find > > Thx for the answer though > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > "goyl at nettx dot no" > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

Is it a USB wheel or gameport ? The gameport wheel doesn't have software support for Win 2000 or XP The USB wheel should come with version 4 software which will install in Win 2000 or XP even though it says it's not certified. So basically, if it's a gameport wheel you're screwed, if it's a USB wheel you're screwed unless you can get hold of the V4 software which isn't downloadable from MS. -- Ian P <email invalid due to spammers>

"Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > Right, against better judgment I picked up one of these the other day, I > needed something small and compact to attach to my desk here at home as > my regular wheel and pedals are too bulky to fit > > Running WinXP the software that accompanied the wheel flatly refuses to > install, it was ver 1.0, right, head on over to MS support site, ver > 3.02, cool, DL, install and.....That's also for W98, ok.... > > Over to the support again, read the FAQ, ah hah, WinXP users should use > ver 4.0, ok, cool, except....I can't find it, I've now spent the better > part of an hour doing various searches and can't find ver 4.0 anywhere, > can anyone help a fellow sim racer in distress ? > > Also....what the eff is Z rotation ? > > Welcome to wonderful world of new and advanced technology eh, I miss my > old analogue wheel and pedals already :-/

Goy, I have that software somewhere, I think. If your mailbox can handle a 5Mb-ish dl, and you can't find it somewhere, let me know. I'm kinda sure this doesn't constitute piracy, but yo ho ho and a bottle of rum if it does.

Colin Harris wrote: > > Goy, I have that software somewhere, I think. If your mailbox can handle a > 5Mb-ish dl, and you can't find it somewhere, let me know. > I'm kinda sure this doesn't constitute piracy, but yo ho ho and a bottle of > rum if it does. That would be much appreciated Colin, I usually drink Capt'n Morgans when I do and yes, my mail box can handle 5MB :-), use the addy in my sig rather than the one I'm posting with as I have no idea if his addy will take 5 MB :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Pete wrote: > > Goy, I just use the default software that comes with XP. > The Z rotation is just another axis. If you need any other > settings just email me. Thx Pete....did you get my e-mail the other day btw ? Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Ian P wrote: > > Is it a USB wheel or gameport ? USB > The gameport wheel doesn't have software support for Win 2000 or XP > The USB wheel should come with version 4 software which will install in Win > 2000 or XP even though it says it's not certified. Well, it came with a very early version of the software, so I guess it's old stock or something then, the date on setup file says 1999.... I'm gonna raise hell somewhere as I've now spent hours trying to track down the correct software, I don't mind being sold old stock as the wheel was clearly unused, but they could have told me so and offered to provide me with the correct software for WinXP I bought it from one of my suppliers, I'll be sure to let them know how I feel about having my time wasted like this, without the help from people in here I would have been stuck until Monday > So basically, if it's a gameport wheel you're screwed, if it's a USB wheel > you're screwed unless you can get hold of the V4 software which isn't > downloadable from MS. Well, thx to our mate Colin, that should be rectified soon :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

GOY!!! You install the software from the download site from MS (after XP see that wheel, and install the driver itself, I think (been a while), then just ignore the warning, about not for windows2000... it works fine, or you will not be able to set the pedals seperate and the deadzone... alos let it install the profiles... there's one in there for GPL wich is a good base one for nascar and some other games... "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > Aidee wrote: > > > > If you restart your computer THEN plug your wheel into a USB port thenWin

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> > XP will load the necessary drivers from its file database. > > Right....should have been clearer, WinXP finds the wheel, that's not the > problem, the problem is that I can't use the software to map buttons and > whatever, every support article on MS tells me I need ver 4.0, but ver > 3.02 is the only one available for DL that I can find > > Thx for the answer though > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > "goyl at nettx dot no" > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

I went from the regular ms wheel to FF, by MS... they work fine in XP... you just need to DL the software (which you already did). they discontinued the wheels (all of em maybe even teh joys too) and they prolly knew that for a long time, that is the probabl reason no updated drivers... seems the SW is version 3.02... we just got 2 otehr guys one of these wheels, they had no problem, but of course the SW might have been the new ones on the MS site... as to your run around, I installed the wheel more than 1.5 year ago, and at the time MS didnt even have the driver/SW anywhere to DL, so they sent me a CD, the CD was in a hell of a big box... in that box the new wheel was under the CD... :P now then enjoy, because the "pots" are not pots at all, they are optical lke thier mouses, and mine which is older than dirt, is still on loan to buddy, till his FF version gets here... I Love mine, you will too, once you get used to it, and get it tweaked/settings all adjust to your liking... "PlowBoy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > GOY!!! > > You install the software from the download site from MS (after XP see that > wheel, and install the driver itself, I think (been a while), then just > ignore the warning, about not for windows2000... it works fine, or you > will not be able to set the pedals seperate and the deadzone... alos letit

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> install the profiles... there's one in there for GPL wich is a good base > one for nascar and some other games... > "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > Aidee wrote: > > > > > > If you restart your computer THEN plug your wheel into a USB port then > Win > > > XP will load the necessary drivers from its file database. > > > > Right....should have been clearer, WinXP finds the wheel, that's not the > > problem, the problem is that I can't use the software to map buttons and > > whatever, every support article on MS tells me I need ver 4.0, but ver > > 3.02 is the only one available for DL that I can find > > > > Thx for the answer though > > > > > > Beers and cheers > > (uncle) Goy > > "goyl at nettx dot no" > > > > http://www.theuspits.com > > > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > > --Groucho Marx-- > >

PlowBoy wrote: > > I went from the regular ms wheel to FF, by MS... they work fine in XP... > you just need to DL the software (which you already did). they discontinued > the wheels (all of em maybe even teh joys too) and they prolly knew that for > a long time, that is the probabl reason no updated drivers... seems the SW > is version 3.02... Yeah, that's the latest on MS aite, I get am error trying to install that and then a CTD

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> we just got 2 otehr guys one of these wheels, they had no problem, but of > course the SW might have been the new ones on the MS site... > > as to your run around, I installed the wheel more than 1.5 year ago, and at > the time MS didnt even have the driver/SW anywhere to DL, so they sent me a > CD, the CD was in a hell of a big box... in that box the new wheel was under > the CD... :P

LOL > now then enjoy, because the "pots" are not pots at all, they are optical lke > thier mouses, and mine which is older than dirt, is still on loan to buddy, > till his FF version gets here... Thx for your input, but I'm seriously looking at a way to attach my old wheel already as quite frankly I'm not at all comfy with this wheel, and since I've already opened it I can tell you that my wheel uses regular pots, as it looks now I'll probably scrap this wheel and rip out the pots and cables to convert my old wheel/pedals to USB It has a distinct "notch" around the center, just like a regular joystick has, which is "less than ideal" for a racing wheel, and looking at the construction you can see why it happens as this is basically a joystick with a wheel attached, I don't think I'm going to warm to this wheel, if hadn't been for that "notch" where on spring takes over from the other, I would have said it was a decent wheel as it quite sturdy for a plastic wheel and the claming system is excellent, and outside of the "notch" it feels very precise The pedals however are a positive surprise and are easily the best commercial pedals I've experienced and I'll probably keep them as a backup to my RedLine pedals I guess this a case of different strokes for different folks, but using the wiring from this wheel I can add 4 buttons to my existing wheel and use the MS software that I now have (thx Colin :-) to program them, so it's not a total waste after all Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Hmm, no I didn't see it. Did you [email hidden]? They have a new spam filter running at the ISP and it has got rid of 99.9% of spam which is great but it may be getting rid of my emails as well. Pete "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > Thx Pete....did you get my e-mail the other day btw ? > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > "goyl at nettx dot no" > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

Pete wrote: > > Hmm, no I didn't see it. > Did you [email hidden]? > They have a new spam filter running at the ISP and it > has got rid of 99.9% of spam which is great but it > may be getting rid of my emails as well. So you're saying I've been Spam filtered ? Oh the humanity......:-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

LOL, I got your email this morning. So I guess your back on. Pete "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > So you're saying I've been Spam filtered ? > > Oh the humanity......:-) > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > "goyl at nettx dot no" > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 23:41:14 +0200, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote: >Running WinXP the software that accompanied the wheel flatly refuses to >install The 4.0 software will say "sorry you can't use this software in this version of windows" unless you have one of the newest models, where they removed that message. In any case, smack the installer around a bit to soften it up some and then click on the "continue" button (or whatever the similar equivalent is - it definitely will install on XP if you ignore the warning message). Jason

On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 23:41:14 +0200, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote: >Running WinXP the software that accompanied the wheel flatly refuses to >install, it was ver 1.0, right Er, wait a minute... was the USB wheel? If so I didn't think they ever shipped with anything other than 4.0. Jason

Jason Moyer wrote:

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> > On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 23:41:14 +0200, Goy Larsen > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Running WinXP the software that accompanied the wheel flatly refuses to > >install, it was ver 1.0, right > > Er, wait a minute... was the USB wheel? If so I didn't think they > ever shipped with anything other than 4.0.

Well, mine did, looked at the date of the files and stuff and they were created July 4th 1999 and yes it was an USB wheel Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 16:53:04 +0200, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote: >Well, mine did, looked at the date of the files and stuff and they were >created July 4th 1999 and yes it was an USB wheel Ouch sucky. I uploaded the 4.0 software: http://www.digitalwank.com/~jmoyer/Sidewinder4.rar Jason

Jason Moyer wrote:

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> > On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 16:53:04 +0200, Goy Larsen > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Well, mine did, looked at the date of the files and stuff and they were > >created July 4th 1999 and yes it was an USB wheel > > Ouch sucky. > > I uploaded the 4.0 software: > > http://www.digitalwank.com/~jmoyer/Sidewinder4.rar

Most appreciated, but as I (briefly) mentioned last night, our mate Colin "Bomber" Harris sorted me out last night, really appreciate the effort though, gotta act quick to beat Colin to the flag :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Goy, was the version 4 better than the default XP drivers? By the way did you get my return email? Pete "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > Most appreciated, but as I (briefly) mentioned last night, our mate > Colin "Bomber" Harris sorted me out last night, really appreciate the > effort though, gotta act quick to beat Colin to the flag :-) > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > "goyl at nettx dot no" > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

Pete wrote: > > Goy, was the version 4 better than the default XP drivers? > By the way did you get my return email? I only tried at briefly before taking the wheel back down to my shop where it will be dismantled and used for parts, but I do believe I saw an option there for split pedals ? Which is good news :-) As for the mail, sure did Pete, I've even replied to it, but I guess I once again got caught in your ISP's spam filter or something, will resend later Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Goy, didn't get it. :-( Try my hotmail account. [email hidden] (broker_pete) Pete "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > I only tried at briefly before taking the wheel back down to my shop > where it will be dismantled and used for parts, but I do believe I saw > an option there for split pedals ? > > Which is good news :-) > > As for the mail, sure did Pete, I've even replied to it, but I guess I > once again got caught in your ISP's spam filter or something, will > resend later > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > "goyl at nettx dot no" > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

Pete wrote: > > Goy, didn't get it. :-( > Try my hotmail account. You've got mail.....hopefully Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Did you buy it NEW? Is it a Gameport or USB version? I can't believe a new one would come with the 3.01 software. They have been shipping the USB/4.0 kits for nearly 4 years now. -Larry "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > Right, against better judgment I picked up one of these the other day, I > needed something small and compact to attach to my desk here at home as > my regular wheel and pedals are too bulky to fit > > Running WinXP the software that accompanied the wheel flatly refuses to > install, it was ver 1.0, right, head on over to MS support site, ver > 3.02, cool, DL, install and.....That's also for W98, ok.... > > Over to the support again, read the FAQ, ah hah, WinXP users should use > ver 4.0, ok, cool, except....I can't find it, I've now spent the better > part of an hour doing various searches and can't find ver 4.0 anywhere, > can anyone help a fellow sim racer in distress ? > > Also....what the eff is Z rotation ? > > Welcome to wonderful world of new and advanced technology eh, I miss my > old analogue wheel and pedals already :-/ > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > "goyl at nettx dot no" > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

Oh, and 4.0 is not downloadable. MS has never posted it. And it only works with USB devices, and EACH SideWinder device uses a customized version of 4.0. That's right, if you have several MS SideWinder USB devices, you have to install several copies of the 4.0 software. Microsoft never really took care of their customers as far as the SideWinder software is concerned. Damn shame, since the MSFFW hardware is excellent. -Larry "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > Right, against better judgment I picked up one of these the other day, I > needed something small and compact to attach to my desk here at home as > my regular wheel and pedals are too bulky to fit > > Running WinXP the software that accompanied the wheel flatly refuses to > install, it was ver 1.0, right, head on over to MS support site, ver > 3.02, cool, DL, install and.....That's also for W98, ok.... > > Over to the support again, read the FAQ, ah hah, WinXP users should use > ver 4.0, ok, cool, except....I can't find it, I've now spent the better > part of an hour doing various searches and can't find ver 4.0 anywhere, > can anyone help a fellow sim racer in distress ? > > Also....what the eff is Z rotation ? > > Welcome to wonderful world of new and advanced technology eh, I miss my > old analogue wheel and pedals already :-/ > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > "goyl at nettx dot no" > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

Yes, but they are only mini-drivers and they are practically useless beyond simple left/right/gas/brake, and it doesn't work with many games. -Larry "Aidee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bepvcp$q4a$[email hidden]... > If you restart your computer THEN plug your wheel into a USB port then Win > XP will load the necessary drivers from its file database. > > AD > >

Larry wrote: > > Did you buy it NEW? Is it a Gameport or USB version? > > I can't believe a new one would come with the 3.01 software. They have been > shipping the USB/4.0 kits for nearly 4 years now. It came in a sealed box, but I suspect it has been in storage for quite a while, which doesn't bother me one bit and yes it's the USB wheel Mute point now though, Colin Harris kindly supplied me with the 4.0 software, furthermore I happen to think the wheel itself with the dreaded "notch" around the center is totally useless for a serious "simmer" as it's next to impossible to make small adjustments around the center, the pedals on the other hand is pretty good with a decent angle for using while sitting in an "office" type chair It's been relegated to my parts bin and will be donating pots and wiring for my home made wheel so I can have 8 buttons instead of for with some decant software to program it, which is why I originally bought, but then I believed my suppliers claim on their web site over some people in here, these wheels do NOT have Optical pots, lesson learned I can hardly return it now as I had a spot of bother opening it ended up using a bit of brute force to pry it open....didn't notice the last screw of course, another lesson learned :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Goy, You need to give it time to break in :) The centering is NOT mechanical. It's all done by FF. Unless you are talking about the standard non-FF SideWinder, in which case I agree. The center-notch on those is horrible and the main reason I skipped on it when it came out years ago. I actually don't like FF for Nascar Racing, but it's hard to get a quality wheel without it. -Larry "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > Larry wrote: > > > > Did you buy it NEW? Is it a Gameport or USB version? > > > > I can't believe a new one would come with the 3.01 software. They have

been

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> > shipping the USB/4.0 kits for nearly 4 years now. > > It came in a sealed box, but I suspect it has been in storage for quite > a while, which doesn't bother me one bit and yes it's the USB wheel > > Mute point now though, Colin Harris kindly supplied me with the 4.0 > software, furthermore I happen to think the wheel itself with the > dreaded "notch" around the center is totally useless for a serious > "simmer" as it's next to impossible to make small adjustments around the > center, the pedals on the other hand is pretty good with a decent angle > for using while sitting in an "office" type chair > > It's been relegated to my parts bin and will be donating pots and wiring > for my home made wheel so I can have 8 buttons instead of for with some > decant software to program it, which is why I originally bought, but > then I believed my suppliers claim on their web site over some people in > here, these wheels do NOT have Optical pots, lesson learned > > I can hardly return it now as I had a spot of bother opening it ended up > using a bit of brute force to pry it open....didn't notice the last > screw of course, another lesson learned :-) > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > "goyl at nettx dot no" > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

Larry wrote:

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> > Goy, > > You need to give it time to break in :) > > The centering is NOT mechanical. It's all done by FF. > > Unless you are talking about the standard non-FF SideWinder, in which case I > agree. The center-notch on those is horrible and the main reason I skipped > on it when it came out years ago. > > I actually don't like FF for Nascar Racing, but it's hard to get a quality > wheel without it.

It's the non-FF wheel....:-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Ugh, then I'm afraid I have to agree. The centering notch on those things really is horrible :( -Larry "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > It's the non-FF wheel....:-) > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > "goyl at nettx dot no" > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

GOY..!!! If you had made it clear from the start we could have sorted this on day 1. There are 2 Microsoft wheels and BOTH are usb. One is called Microsoft Sidewinder FF usb and the other is the Microsoft Sidewinder Precision Racing wheel usb. The FF version uses software 4.0 The Precision wheel uses 3.02. They look VERY similar,with the FF having rubber covering where your hands are intended to be and the Precision wheel having a noticeable notch at centre. If you want that notch removing get the FF version which can have the FF switched off very easily by pressing the button in the middle of the wheel,i never had mine on. AD

Aidee wrote:

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> > GOY..!!! > > If you had made it clear from the start we could have sorted this on day 1. > > There are 2 Microsoft wheels and BOTH are usb. > > One is called Microsoft Sidewinder FF usb and the other > > is the Microsoft Sidewinder Precision Racing wheel usb. > > The FF version uses software 4.0 > > The Precision wheel uses 3.02. > > They look VERY similar,with the FF having rubber covering where your hands > are intended to be and the Precision wheel having a noticeable notch at > centre. > > If you want that notch removing get the FF version which can have the FF > switched off very easily by pressing the button in the middle of the wheel,i > never had mine on.

Well, like I said I originally bought it for parts, so buying a FF wheel was somewhat out of the question, but the non-FF wheel needs 4.0 under XP as well since the 3.02 flatly refuses to install, just comes up with a bunch of error messages Like I said, lesson learnt Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--