OT: IS there ANYTHING he won't do to kill CART?

It is happening again. The Devil's son, whose name I shalt not speak, has found another insidious way to work his evil. How much money did it cost? WHo did he have to influence? Once again he has started a process that will ultimately steal another manufactuer. Up until last year, the Olds/Chevy block was king of the hill. The Infinity did make some progress, but year in/year out, the Bowtie engine was the ticket to sucess in the irl league. Now suddenly it is a pathetic loser. How much did it cost the owner of the Indy track to convince General Motors to build a crappy motor? Ya see, here is the plot....GM suddenly can't even get a mill built that will keep up with 1st year experiements by a couple of Japanese manufactuers. And not only is the Chevy engine down on power, it is also down on r&d. So for SOME reason, the company that provides Jeff Gordon with a trick head/block that powers him to 4 Winston Cup championships can't do a little work on an irl block. Suddenly they have a White Knight! Ford's Cosworth boys can 'fix' the broken chevy. And they have. In the space of two weeks they have found enough speed to be competive with Chevy's unfixable engine. Imagine that. But now consider....The Nascar Petty team wanted to upgrade their engine program and was going to contract with the Yates engine builders. Yates have been the premier FORD engine builders for years. Ford is so paranoid they won't even let Yates loan an engineer to the Petty organization. Even tho Richard Petty, at one time, drove for FORD. So if FORD won't give help to a legend like THe King..... .... ..... (whose current manufacturer is a distant 3rd in points.) Why did they suddenly cave in and SAVE the CHevy irl program???? What could have convinced Ford to help the hated rival who clearly is much more of a sales and competition threat than Dodge? In steps xxxx xxxxx and 'somehow' he convinces Ford to do what Richard Petty could not. Why? Of course FORD is the only engine builder now for CART. Now that the devil's child has a 'relationship' with Ford, how long til they too wander over to the brickyard.... Evil never sleeps..... dave henrie

Dave......all I can say. WOW.... KnektR "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> It is happening again. The Devil's son, whose name I shalt not speak, > has found another insidious way to work his evil. How much money did it > cost? WHo did he have to influence? Once again he has started a process > that will ultimately steal another manufactuer. > Up until last year, the Olds/Chevy block was king of the hill. The > Infinity did make some progress, but year in/year out, the Bowtie engine > was the ticket to sucess in the irl league. Now suddenly it is a

pathetic

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> loser. How much did it cost the owner of the Indy track to convince > General Motors to build a crappy motor? > Ya see, here is the plot....GM suddenly can't even get a mill built > that will keep up with 1st year experiements by a couple of Japanese > manufactuers. And not only is the Chevy engine down on power, it is also > down on r&d. So for SOME reason, the company that provides Jeff Gordon > with a trick head/block that powers him to 4 Winston Cup championships > can't do a little work on an irl block. > Suddenly they have a White Knight! Ford's Cosworth boys can 'fix'

the > broken chevy. And they have. In the space of two weeks they have found > enough speed to be competive with Chevy's unfixable engine. Imaginethat. > But now consider....The Nascar Petty team wanted to upgrade their engine > program and was going to contract with the Yates engine builders. Yates > have been the premier FORD engine builders for years. Ford is soparanoid > they won't even let Yates loan an engineer to the Petty organization.Even > tho Richard Petty, at one time, drove for FORD. So if FORD won't givehelp > to a legend like THe King..... .... ..... (whose current manufacturer isa

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> distant 3rd in points.) Why did they suddenly cave in and SAVE the CHevy > irl program???? > What could have convinced Ford to help the hated rival who clearly is > much more of a sales and competition threat than Dodge? In steps xxxx > xxxxx and 'somehow' he convinces Ford to do what Richard Petty could not. > Why? Of course FORD is the only engine builder now for CART. Now that > the devil's child has a 'relationship' with Ford, how long til they too > wander over to the brickyard.... > > Evil never sleeps..... > > > > dave henrie

Dave, I've got a lot of respect for you as a person, but this anti-Tony George, anti-IRL B.S. is getting old. I expect to see this kind of stuff in the RASI(rec.autos.sport.indy) newsgroup, not here -- which is why I no longer frequent the RASI newsgroup. This kind of stuff is VERY tiresome -- you call Tony George "the Devil's son," but have you ever met him, ever talked with him? I have, and he's a very nice, very quiet, very humble, soft-spoken guy. It's becoming increasingly clear that CART is unable to stand on its own merits without the Indianapolis 500 to help define it as the premier open-wheel series in America. Folks like Roger Penske, Michael Andretti, and Mo Nunn have realized this already. CART screwed its own pooch back in '94 when they refused to even attempt to broker some sort of compromise that would have prevented the formation of the IRL. Even after the IRL was in the planning stages, Tony George and company wanted to align their rules with CART's, but CART rejected all of the IRL's proposed engine-, chassis-, and safety-oriented changes out of hand, then adopted many of them after they shut the door in order to force the IRL to map out its path to the future on its own. The new Chevy engine has a connection to Ford because of Cosworth's affiliation with Ford -- Tony George has not "bought" Ford's blessings; Cosworth developed and submitted an engine design to the IRL with the intention of competing as a manufacturer this year, but they couldn't find a badge partner to give the engine ties to an existing manufacturer, and the IRL would not let the engine compete as simply a "Cosworth" powerplant. Ford's divisions like Visteon and Cosworth operate like independent business units -- if they can make money for themselves and for Ford by doing business with other competitors like Toyota, Dailmer-Chrysler, or GM, then that is perfectly acceptable to Ford. That is why we're seeing Cosworth involvement with the IRL -- Cosworth submitted an engine design to the IRL with the intention of joining as a competitor, and now Chevrolet has stepped up to be the "badge sponsor" for that engine because their own in-house engine design has failed to measure up to the competition. Cosworth wins in terms of sales. Ford wins because Cosworth's original IRL design is now becoming a profitable product. Chevrolet wins because they get a competitive powerplant (hopefully, anyway). Toyota and Honda win as a result of the increased competition. The fans win because things just got a lot more interesting. Let go of the weak-kneed "CART vs. the IRL" rhetoric -- judge each series on its own merits, and if you find one lacking, learn how to use your TV remote to change the channel or turn the TV off. It's that simple. Now, let's get back to sim racing: Try netKar -- it's the new GPL; spread the word . . . it's THAT good. Forget about Codemaster's IndyCar Series game for the PC -- the demo is weak, and it looks like the PC version probably isn't going to be released, anyway. ;-) -- JCB Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

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> It is happening again. The Devil's son, whose name I shalt not speak, > has found another insidious way to work his evil. How much money did it > cost? WHo did he have to influence? Once again he has started a process > that will ultimately steal another manufactuer. > Up until last year, the Olds/Chevy block was king of the hill. The > Infinity did make some progress, but year in/year out, the Bowtie engine > was the ticket to sucess in the irl league. Now suddenly it is a pathetic > loser. How much did it cost the owner of the Indy track to convince > General Motors to build a crappy motor? > Ya see, here is the plot....GM suddenly can't even get a mill built > that will keep up with 1st year experiements by a couple of Japanese > manufactuers. And not only is the Chevy engine down on power, it is also > down on r&d. So for SOME reason, the company that provides Jeff Gordon > with a trick head/block that powers him to 4 Winston Cup championships > can't do a little work on an irl block. > Suddenly they have a White Knight! Ford's Cosworth boys can 'fix' the > broken chevy. And they have. In the space of two weeks they have found > enough speed to be competive with Chevy's unfixable engine. Imagine that. > But now consider....The Nascar Petty team wanted to upgrade their engine > program and was going to contract with the Yates engine builders. Yates > have been the premier FORD engine builders for years. Ford is so paranoid > they won't even let Yates loan an engineer to the Petty organization. Even > tho Richard Petty, at one time, drove for FORD. So if FORD won't give help > to a legend like THe King..... .... ..... (whose current manufacturer is a > distant 3rd in points.) Why did they suddenly cave in and SAVE the CHevy > irl program???? > What could have convinced Ford to help the hated rival who clearly is > much more of a sales and competition threat than Dodge? In steps xxxx > xxxxx and 'somehow' he convinces Ford to do what Richard Petty could not. > Why? Of course FORD is the only engine builder now for CART. Now that > the devil's child has a 'relationship' with Ford, how long til they too > wander over to the brickyard.... > > Evil never sleeps..... > > > > dave henrie

IRL killed open wheel racing and Tony George is a MOTHERFUCKER

hehe Things are looking pretty healthy for the IRL. It's CART that killed itself. Open wheel racing is still alive. "frederickson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:FWzSa.41279$[email hidden]... > IRL killed open wheel racing and Tony George is a MOTHERFUCKER > >

On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 17:02:29 GMT, "frederickson" <[email hidden]> wrote: >IRL killed open wheel racing and Tony George is a MOTHERFUCKER Me too. Jason

"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > Up until last year, the Olds/Chevy block was king of the hill. Real hard task, they had an effective monopoly. Sorta like feigning shock at Goodyear winning a Winston Cup race, or a Ford winning a CART, excuse me BPTCCWSPBF, race. Now suddenly it is a pathetic > loser. How much did it cost the owner of the Indy track to convince > General Motors to build a crappy motor? Surely you're not *that* ignorant and naive? GM's been complacent after having no real threats over the past 5 yrs. Suddenly, the big boys roll into town with serious budgets and a determination to make things happen, and GM got their backsides handed to them. > So for SOME reason, the company that provides Jeff Gordon > with a trick head/block that powers him to 4 Winston Cup championships > can't do a little work on an irl block. GM is ruled by beancounters, 'nuff said. They're didn't spend enough/work hard enough in anticipation of proper competition. In NASCAR, they have the benefit of making incremental improvements to a 50-yr old design. > Why did they suddenly cave in and SAVE the CHevy > irl program???? They didn't. Cosworth is merely a far-flung acqusition of Ford. Not really all that different than Visteon or Delphi selling parts to automakers beyond their parents. > Now that > the devil's child has a 'relationship' with Ford, how long til they too > wander over to the brickyard.... I agree with John, enough blathering. We get it, you don't like Tony. No need to continue the slander and misguided diatribes. Do you subscribe to AutoRacing1.com? Too bad you aren't a NASCAR die-hard, I bet you'd have some really paranoid delusional thoughts on Toyota. :-D -jde

"J.D. Ellis"

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> I agree with John, enough blathering. We get it, you don't like Tony. > No need to continue the slander and misguided diatribes. Do you > subscribe to AutoRacing1.com? Too bad you aren't a NASCAR die-hard, I > bet you'd have some really paranoid delusional thoughts on Toyota. :-D > > -jde >

;) but they keep giving me more fuel to chew on......... dave(mulder)henrie

"J.D. Ellis" ;) but they keep giving me more fuel to chew on......... dave(mulder)henrie

Agreed. CART has been slowly committing suicide for the past three years, perhaps more. It's too bad, because I think it is potentially the most exciting racing series there is, and a few years ago I saw some awesome CART races. But now it's a spec racing series with only 2 or 3 guys who can win a race and relatively few lead changes. In fact most of the bad things that people say about F1 now apply to CART. (OTOH I just watched an F1 race today that was the most exciting race I have seen in a long time.) "ESRacin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:uLBSa.5783$[email hidden]... > > It's CART that killed itself. Open wheel racing is still alive. >

I just hate it that CART is not doing well. I used to watch all of the CART races and eagerly wait for the next race. Now I find myself not interested. I have moved to F1. I wish CART could bring the magic back. BTW I just can not sit through an entire IRL race. I like the road courses much better. "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> "J.D. Ellis" > > I agree with John, enough blathering. We get it, you don't like Tony. > > No need to continue the slander and misguided diatribes. Do you > > subscribe to AutoRacing1.com? Too bad you aren't a NASCAR die-hard, I > > bet you'd have some really paranoid delusional thoughts on Toyota. :-D > > > > -jde > > > ;) > > but they keep giving me more fuel to chew on......... > > > dave(mulder)henrie

On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 01:36:33 +0000, Dave Henrie wrote:

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> But now consider....The Nascar Petty team wanted to upgrade their engine > program and was going to contract with the Yates engine builders. Yates > have been the premier FORD engine builders for years. Ford is so paranoid > they won't even let Yates loan an engineer to the Petty organization. Even > tho Richard Petty, at one time, drove for FORD. So if FORD won't give help > to a legend like THe King..... .... ..... (whose current manufacturer is a > distant 3rd in points.) Why did they suddenly cave in and SAVE the CHevy > irl program????

Maybe because Ford is itself a participant in NASCAR and thus competes directly against Petty, whereas it is not a participant in the IRL, and thus has nothing to lose by helping someone else there? No wild conspiracy necessary to explain this one... Marc

Hey Brian ... long time no speak =) -- Scott B. Husted "PA-Scott" ICQ# 4395450 http://www.Husted.cc "Brian Bowles" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jCTSa.8427$[email hidden]... > I just hate it that CART is not doing well. I used to watch all of the CART > races and eagerly wait for the next race. Now I find myself not interested. > I have moved to F1. I wish CART could bring the magic back. BTW I just can > not sit through an entire IRL race. I like the road courses much better. > "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > "J.D. Ellis" > > > I agree with John, enough blathering. We get it, you don't like Tony. > > > No need to continue the slander and misguided diatribes. Do you > > > subscribe to AutoRacing1.com? Too bad you aren't a NASCAR die-hard, I > > > bet you'd have some really paranoid delusional thoughts on Toyota. :-D > > > > > > -jde > > > > > ;) > > > > but they keep giving me more fuel to chew on......... > > > > > > dave(mulder)henrie > > >

"J.D. Ellis"

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> I agree with John, enough blathering. We get it, you don't like Xxxx. > No need to continue the slander and misguided diatribes. Do you > subscribe to AutoRacing1.com? Too bad you aren't a NASCAR die-hard, I > bet you'd have some really paranoid delusional thoughts on Toyota. :-D > > -jde >

Nascar had better pay close attention to the air volumes going into the carb...The Japanese seem to be very good at getting more air into an engine than is allowed....paranoid?? me??????? dave(whatwuzthat?)henrie

On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 11:38:14 -0400, "Brian Bowles" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I just hate it that CART is not doing well. I used to watch all of the CART >races and eagerly wait for the next race. Now I find myself not interested. >I have moved to F1. I enjoy both. If I had to pick one, I don't think it would be tough. On one hand you have naturally aspirated V10's with traction control, launch control, and fully automatic gearboxes driving around emasculated European circuits, on the other you have turbo V8's with ground effects and no driver aids (not even a fully semi-automatic gearbox - they still have to blip the throttle on downshifts) driving around the greatest road courses and ovals in North America. I dunno, they both have horrible TV presentation and coverage in the states, so that's not much of a factor. Based on the cars/tracks and even personalities (Paul Tracy alone has more of a personality than the entire 2003 F1 field combined) I would still have to go with Champcars, if I had to make that choice. I'm not trying to insult F1, as it's still a great series, but I dunno. The things I like about racing are more abundant in CART than they are in F1, and if CART drives the full Brand's Hatch next year, that basically means they'll have more interesting European tracks than F1 does by a score of 1 to 0. Hell they already have more interesting historic Grand Prix tracks what with Mexico City and Long Beach. =) Pook needs to step it up and bring in Spa and Estoril next year, mmmm. Thankfully, it's easy enough to follow both series, as they are both worth the time, imho. A final thought... no matter how bad CART may get in the future, I can't hate a series with Mario Andretti as its spokesperson. Just not possible. Jason

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> The things I like about racing are more abundant > in CART than they are in F1, and if CART drives the full Brand's Hatch > next year, that basically means they'll have more interesting European > tracks than F1 does by a score of 1 to 0. Hell they already have more > interesting historic Grand Prix tracks what with Mexico City and Long > Beach. =) Pook needs to step it up and bring in Spa and Estoril next > year, mmmm.

The thing that CART does right in my eyes is... To succeed in the series a driver and team must meet the challenges of running on all types of circuits. Permanent road courses, Temporary road courses (Concrete canyons), and Ovals. Go ahead and call me crazy but I would like to see the F1 boys contend with a couple of ovals (1 or 2) on there schedule. I know, I know, Blasphemy! But just think... ...Turn 4, MONTOYA goes down low on SCHUMACHER, oh no RAIKKONEN goes high! There 3 WIDE! Now that would be entertainment >:) Hehe! I'm goofy I guess. While the IRL has some good close racing, The fact that they run exclusively on Ovals makes it my least favorite to follow. Hell, even the NASCAR boys run a couple of road courses! Seriously though, I do hope we get to see both CART and F1 at Spa next year! -- Pete Panaia Animator \ 3D Artist

"Pete Panaia" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bBgUa.2832$[email hidden]... > Go ahead and call me crazy but I would like to see the F1 boys contendwith > a couple of ovals (1 or 2) on there schedule. > I know, I know, Blasphemy! But just think... > ...Turn 4, MONTOYA goes down low on SCHUMACHER, oh no RAIKKONEN goes high! > There 3 WIDE! > Now that would be entertainment >:) Hehe! I'm goofy I guess. You're crazy (you asked for that), but you're also stupid as well <g> Why the hell would I want to watch Montoya and Raikkonen going side by side around a roundabout when I could watch them doing it on a real track for the next 5-10 years? Hehe... Nick (the F1 guy who just has a serious fundamental problem with roundabout racing)

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 00:06:00 +0100, "Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Why the hell would I want to watch Montoya and Raikkonen going side by side >around a roundabout when I could watch them doing it on a real track for the >next 5-10 years? Wait, F1 is going back Brand's Hatch and the Nordschleife? Er, n/m. The difference between ovals and the gokart tracks they race now is so minimal I'm not sure doing the lausitzring or rockingham, UK would be such a big deal. The Indy oval is probably more interesting than the road course is, anyway. Jason

> You're crazy (you asked for that), but you're also stupid as well <g> > > Why the hell would I want to watch Montoya and Raikkonen going side byside > around a roundabout when I could watch them doing it on a real track forthe > next 5-10 years? > > Hehe... > > Nick (the F1 guy who just has a serious fundamental problem withroundabout > racing) Cool. Stupid huh? Thanks for your open-minded reply. It was just speculation for fun. >;) I am first and foremost an F1 fan and have been since the early 1980's. But I also find enjoyment from other forms of racing too. I do recognize the skill and strategy it takes to be good on an oval. While it is certainly not my first choice for a racing venue, like it or not racing on a "roundabout" as you called it IS a part of this great sport we all love called Motor Racing. I guess my point is. For an F1 driver to be the best racing driver in the world (which I think a lot of them are) it would be nice to see how they would fair on a "roundabout" too (Jim Clark seemed to do pretty well on an Oval). Not to mention the weird things we would see the teams dream up. Winglets and other stuff. I do like to be entertained! Wait a minute... how about adding a Rally type race to the schedule too! <%) Just kidding... It's time for my medication. >;) Thanks for the fun! -- Pete Panaia Animator \ 3D Artist

"Pete Panaia" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:igyUa.3505$[email hidden]... > Cool. Stupid huh? Thanks for your open-minded reply. It was just > speculation for fun. >;) No problem! > I am first and foremost an F1 fan and have been since the early 1980's.But > I also find enjoyment from other forms of racing too. I do recognize the > skill and strategy it takes to be good on an oval. So do I. > While it is certainly not > my first choice for a racing venue, like it or not racing on a"roundabout" > as you called it IS a part of this great sport we all love called Motor > Racing. I watch my fair share of CART and NASCAR (but not the crapwagons out of principle). I know CART doesn't run that many ovals now, but I think oval racing has a deserved place in motor sport. However, F1 is my favourite motor sport, has been all my life, despite the fact that my dad was a rally driver. I liked F1 enough to get a job in it. To me, running F1 cars on roundabouts would be like killing the old Nurburgring, or removing the new Spa from the schedule, or changing the rules of the sport after 2 years of Ferrari dominance, or letting ITV do the coverage, or ... Wait a minute...

F1 = YAWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Nick" ... > > Wait a minute... > So what you are saying is..... :) dh

"Jack" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > F1 = YAWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That ^ reply = YAWN.

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 13:19:18 +0100, "Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>I watch my fair share of CART and NASCAR (but not the crapwagons out of >principle). I know CART doesn't run that many ovals now, but I think oval >racing has a deserved place in motor sport. However, F1 is my favourite >motor sport, has been all my life, despite the fact that my dad was a rally >driver. I liked F1 enough to get a job in it. To me, running F1 cars on >roundabouts would be like killing the old Nurburgring, or removing the new >Spa from the schedule, or changing the rules of the sport after 2 years of >Ferrari dominance, or letting ITV do the coverage, or ...

You know, in the 50's the Indy 500 counted towards the Formula One championship, so it's not like it would be the first time F1 has raced on an oval (not counting all the other oval-like tracks they've driven on anyway). Jason

"jason moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > You know, in the 50's the Indy 500 counted towards the Formula One > championship, so it's not like it would be the first time F1 has raced > on an oval (not counting all the other oval-like tracks they've driven > on anyway). That's true, it was raced until 1960 I think, but the F1 drivers didn't usually do too well, and back then only a certain number of finishes a season could count for the WC. It wouldn't seem too harsh to suggest that F1 used the Indy 500 to help get itself started in the early years, but not being alive back then means I'm not really best placed to comment <g> Nick

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 20:57:15 GMT, [email hidden] (jason moyer) wrote: >You know, in the 50's the Indy 500 counted towards the Formula One >championship, so it's not like it would be the first time F1 has raced >on an oval It was little more than a mere publicity stunt to get U.S. attention to the F1 world championship. They didn't field F1 cars after 1953 obviously and the event was largely ignored by all teams. I could only find one noticable appearance in those ten years, Alberto Ascari in 1952. Also, AFAIK only once did any driver take points with him from Indy to the F1 championship. Can't remember the name, though.