I like NetKar best... I mean LFS... er GPL... no, er GTR002... N2003...

Or maybe I don't *need* to decide which is best as long as I'm having fun. This morning I reinstalled F12002 & the GTR2002 mod, and I must confess it left me rather unmoved in a week in which I've driven so many decent sims. *Beautiful* sounds, an inspiration all in themselves, but something not quite right for me, a feeling carried over from the main F2002 heart of the sim. So I ended up in N2003 at the Ring, then GPL at IoM, then LFS, where I stumbled across a combination of car and track which, here and now, has hit a sweet spot. No doubt by the time I've had some sleep it will all have changed (it seems to have done every other day this week!) But the RB4 at the classic South City track feels very good indeed at the moment, especially as you push hard through that underpass at the end of the first straight. With a couple of laps in the tyres I can feel all sorts of things happening to the car as I struggle to maintain speed and control. It's really rather good, but racing the same car at Blackwood I get far less of a sense of involvement... which I guess means I'm the problem not LFS :-) Anyway, it's a combination I recommend. It's been a crazy sort of week. I don't think I've ever tried to like so many sims in such a short space of time. I guess we should be very grateful there's this kind of choice... it's certainly not a problem we have over in the flight-sim group! Andrew "wasn't I supposed to be doing some work today?" McP

LOL....thought you'd love GTR2002 fer sure...but nooooo...owwww...the hooorrror of it.. nah..to every man his own. I'm now re installing GPL after a year or more of not driving it because after getting my GPL addiction under control i swor not to drive it ever again....yet...here i go again..sigh. But, all the argueing asside about which one is "the best", you're right that the amount of choice we have lately is great, at least car sims aren't dead yet which is a good thing in these times of FPShooters being everywhere.. Willem On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 13:41 +0100 (BST), [email hidden] (Andrew MacPherson) wrote:

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> >Or maybe I don't *need* to decide which is best as long as I'm having >fun. > >This morning I reinstalled F12002 & the GTR2002 mod, and I must confess >it left me rather unmoved in a week in which I've driven so many decent >sims. *Beautiful* sounds, an inspiration all in themselves, but >something not quite right for me, a feeling carried over from the main >F2002 heart of the sim. So I ended up in N2003 at the Ring, then GPL at >IoM, then LFS, where I stumbled across a combination of car and track >which, here and now, has hit a sweet spot. > >No doubt by the time I've had some sleep it will all have changed (it >seems to have done every other day this week!) But the RB4 at the >classic South City track feels very good indeed at the moment, >especially as you push hard through that underpass at the end of the >first straight. With a couple of laps in the tyres I can feel all sorts >of things happening to the car as I struggle to maintain speed and >control. It's really rather good, but racing the same car at Blackwood I >get far less of a sense of involvement... which I guess means I'm the >problem not LFS :-) Anyway, it's a combination I recommend. > >It's been a crazy sort of week. I don't think I've ever tried to like so >many sims in such a short space of time. I guess we should be very >grateful there's this kind of choice... it's certainly not a problem we >have over in the flight-sim group! > >Andrew "wasn't I supposed to be doing some work today?" McP >

"Andrew MacPherson" wrote: > It's been a crazy sort of week. I don't think I've ever tried to like so > many sims in such a short space of time. I guess we should be very > grateful there's this kind of choice... it's certainly not a problem we > have over in the flight-sim group! Same here! I installed NetKar, LFS & reinstalled Rally Trophy after stumbling on some patches. The "problem" is that my history of sims started 13 years ago and the rate of improvement was staggering in all areas (physics, graphics, sound etc.) right up until the GPL demo in '98. I would love a sim and then a new one would come out with better everything and the year old sim would be ditched for the new one. I yearned for a situation where there were several sims of different genres (rally, open wheel & touring cars) but there was always one great sim. Even Nascar1 was the sim for a year because of the improvements in all areas (I ended up turning it into a 2 track touring car series). The wow factor has not reappeared since the GPL demo, the first race against the AI in the full release, first online race and finally first league race. There has been some interesting stuff, maybe some as good as GPL in some areas. Listening to Nascar2003 coming down the gears into the slow corners at Watkins is cool - but the school bus experience doesn't wash. It is *not* a case of resistance to change from GPL - every now and then I go through a week like this and want to find something new and better - and it is not through lack of commitment. Maybe there are some settings in one of the new sims that will get that feel right, yet GPL managed that out of the box - even with a pig of a setup in the demo. Having achieved my desire for a number of decent titles to spread my race time I now yearn for that wow feeling when I fire up a new sim for the first time :) Cheers Tony --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.497 / Virus Database: 296 - Release Date: 04/07/2003

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (willempie) wrote: > thought you'd love GTR2002 Don't worry, on current form by Saturday I'll be proclaiming it the Holy Grail of all driving sims ;-) It *is* a great achievement, I'm not disputing that. But in my hopping from one sim to another, at the moment I'm finding more of a sense of involvement with some of the vehicles & tracks in LFS. I may well find a similar combination in GTR2002. I tried several cars this morning, remembered what a handful the Lister & Marcos are, but was quite surprised at how manageable the Ferrari seemed to be. Maybe I should concentrate on that car for a while and try to give the mod a real chance. I suspect I need to work on my car & controller setup as well. It may just be that LFS's RB4 has a default setup which just suits my driving style... or lack of it :-) Andrew McP

In article <Q4RTa.2055$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Tony Rickard) wrote: > I now yearn for that wow feeling when I fire up a new sim for the > first time :) I think there are a few problems here. First, GPL was the first sim with extremely "serious" physics. (Ok, maybe Gripped/SODA then, but it was so ugly it was easy to forget that :-) Once that threshold has been crossed, it's hard for another sim to stand head & shoulders above it. All we can really hope for is even better physics (eg N2003) but with more interesting vehicles (ie not Cup cars, no matter how intriguing they might be to drive at Zandvort etc). The trouble with that is that those '67 cars were pretty exciting rides... far too much power, far too little grip. Anything else is going to feel tame in comparison unless it's very well done indeed. Which means we're looking for something quite subtle... something that immediately matches the "this is so right" feeling many of us got from those first few minutes in the GPL demo, yet has all the subtleties which GPL lacks... and those subtleties are, by their very nature, er... subtle :-) So, er... what? I've no idea. I should've gone to bed 2.5 hours ago, it's 2:30am by local bodyclock time and I'm well into talking bollox territory. Not that I generally have to stay up late to talk bollox ;-) Andrew McP

"Andrew MacPherson" wrote:

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> > I now yearn for that wow feeling when I fire up a new sim for the > > first time :) > > I think there are a few problems here. First, GPL was the first sim with > extremely "serious" physics. (Ok, maybe Gripped/SODA then, but it was so > ugly it was easy to forget that :-) Once that threshold has been > crossed, it's hard for another sim to stand head & shoulders above it. > All we can really hope for is even better physics (eg N2003) but with > more interesting vehicles (ie not Cup cars, no matter how intriguing > they might be to drive at Zandvort etc).

True, but I still get a saddo kick out of flooring it out of the pits and leaving two black lines and not spinning it as I join the track. LFS around the city streets is great for some hooligan driving (who cares about the lap times), yet with a more GPL like model it could be more immersive. Imagine a driver type game but with GPL like physics. Imagine an online version of the Bullit car chase. Imagine a GPL engined ice racing sim - but with enhance collision detection! Imagine... (isn't there a song about this!) Maybe not a head & shoulders improvement but at least an evolution of GPL for open wheeled, touring car or rally would be better than trying and failing to see if something new matches it. Cheers Tony --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.497 / Virus Database: 296 - Release Date: 04/07/2003

"Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> skrev i meddelandet news:jnSTa.2147$[email hidden]... > Imagine a driver type game but with GPL like physics. Imagine an online > version of the Bullit car chase. Imagine a GPL engined ice racing sim -but

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> with enhance collision detection! Imagine... (isn't there a song about > this!) > > Maybe not a head & shoulders improvement but at least an evolution of GPL > for open wheeled, touring car or rally would be better than trying and > failing to see if something new matches it. > > Cheers > Tony >

Damn, i almost got a tear in my eye... sigh... I couldn�t agree more... Peter

"Andrew MacPherson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > This morning I reinstalled F12002 & the GTR2002 mod, and I must confess > it left me rather unmoved in a week in which I've driven so many decent > sims. *Beautiful* sounds, an inspiration all in themselves, but > something not quite right for me, a feeling carried over from the main > F2002 heart of the sim. From my vast experience of about one week, I have really mixed feelings over the "F1-2002 family". Actually I've never tried F1-2002, only the mods for it, but some mods feel great, or even cars within mods, whereas others feel very strange. For example trying some of the cars at Silverstone in the last while the Zonda feels hideous - maybe I can't get a setup , or maybe I got the SLF version of it, but whatever I do it's pogo-ing it's way around the Luffield section in an awful manner - very unrealistic feeling. Then I try the 360 an it feels fine - still a bit strange in those sections, the bumps induce far more energy in the car than I would have imagined, but it's a lot better. Sugo is a similar feeling - Lister Storm felt hideous, but the M3 was a riot, and behaving as I would imagine. Not enough experience at present of the mods, cars, engine or even sim-racing to draw any conclusion from these observations, but any love affair is on-hold for now! Can't help but agree that a wide range is good, but for me the downside is that it diffuses people effort. Not only in terms of add-ons, since track converters, painters etc work on a huge variety of items thus reducing what is available for each sim, but also for drivers - there aren't yet that many online racers, fewer yet that you'd want to race regularly, and with those small-ish numbers spread over a larger number of sims it's difficult to find good races (or to practice sufficient games/mods to be competitive enough in each to get a good level). One thing I liked about GPL was that so many people used the same game engine and rapidly downloaded any new tracks etc, so there was a very large community of talented racers, experienced in the same cars at the same tracks, as well as an equally talented community developing for a great sim. Choice is also good, but that is nice too! Cheers! John ----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

Andrew MacPherson wrote: > Or maybe I don't *need* to decide which is best as long as I'm having > fun. http://www.fanta.dk/showmovie.asp?mid=5E8303A8-B2B0-4916-896D-006C273114A7 :) Gerry

"Gerry Aitken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Andrew MacPherson wrote: > > Or maybe I don't *need* to decide which is best as long as I'm having > > fun. > > http://www.fanta.dk/showmovie.asp?mid=5E8303A8-B2B0-4916-896D-006C273114A7 ><MontyBurns> Eeeexcellent... </MontyBurns> :) Regards, Mark

Imagine sports cars in an updated GPL engine with updated GPL tracks. If the Project Wildfire Trans Am mod ever happens, you won't have to imagine that anymore. Get NR2003, get the mod, get the track converter, download some track updates, and you will have it. "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jnSTa.2147$[email hidden]... > > Imagine a driver type game but with GPL like physics. Imagine an online > version of the Bullit car chase. Imagine a GPL engined ice racing sim -but > with enhance collision detection! Imagine... (isn't there a song about > this!) >

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Gerry Aitken) wrote: > http://www.fanta.dk/showmovie.asp?mid=5E8303A8- > B2B0-4916-896D-006C273114A7 :-) Andrew McP

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (John Wallace) wrote: > Choice is also good, but that is nice too! Yes, all good points. In life in general I've always seen too much choice as a bad thing. That's one reason why this week I've tried to invest some time finding which of the current crop of sims shows the most promise for me. (Ok, it's also great displacement activity from what I *should* be doing!) But the more I poke about, the less I can decide. I want bits of this sim, bits from that, this car on that track with this view and... And it makes me appreciate the early days of GPL even more, because GPL did a great job of pooling talent and enthusiasm (and criticism!) I've got great respect for everyone who puts time and effort into the many excellent sims & mods out there, but a big part of me still hopes the N2003 codebase really is hiding something special that'll simplify my sim-life considerably :-) Andrew McP

> In life in general I've always seen too much > choice as a bad thing. So true! Sometimes I think, 'Screw it, I'll just go back and play GPL' Then I fire it up and the 36fps frame rate destroys the sense of reality after playing GTR2002 at a liquid smooth 70fps+ Then the slipping and sliding of the cars tyres (which feels like nothing I've ever driven in real life) puts me off and I end up going back in search of some other sim....

willempie wrote: > I'm now re installing GPL after a year or more of not driving it > because after getting my GPL addiction under control i swor not to > drive it ever again....yet...here i go again..sigh. Ah, the mark of a real junkie ;) Don't fret about it though, seeing Isle of Man in GPL is plenty of reason to get back in. Not to mention Buenos Aires, Interlagos, the new Brabham etc etc etc... Regards, Rudy (GPLRank -1.6)

Andrew MacPherson wrote: > The trouble with that is that those '67 cars were pretty exciting > rides... far too much power, far too little grip. Anything else is going > to feel tame in comparison unless it's very well done indeed. So what you're saying is you'd need something like a Top Fuel Dragracing on Ice simulation? ;) Regards, Rudy

Redmist wrote: > So true! Sometimes I think, 'Screw it, I'll just go back and play GPL' > Then I fire it up and the 36fps frame rate destroys the sense of reality > after playing GTR2002 at a liquid smooth 70fps+ Then the slipping and > sliding of the cars tyres (which feels like nothing I've ever driven in real > life) puts me off and I end up going back in search of some other sim.... Dude, you're spoiled (both in the grip and in the fps departments) ;) I can't even get the bugger up to 30 fps at the starts on my old PII-450... (Anybody got an old voodoo5 to donate? ;) Regards, Rudy (GPLRank -1.6)

In article <bfqe45$edo$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Ruud Dingemans) wrote: > So what you're saying is you'd need something like a Top Fuel > Dragracing on Ice simulation? ;) Ok, who leaked Geoff Crammond's next project? :-) Andrew McP

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 14:51:22 +1000, "Redmist" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>> In life in general I've always seen too much >> choice as a bad thing. > >So true! Sometimes I think, 'Screw it, I'll just go back and play GPL' >Then I fire it up and the 36fps frame rate destroys the sense of reality >after playing GTR2002 at a liquid smooth 70fps+ Then the slipping and >sliding of the cars tyres (which feels like nothing I've ever driven in real >life) puts me off and I end up going back in search of some other sim....

I'm surprised at your fps comments.. 36fps in GPL feels supersmooth to me, while 36fps in F1C for example give me a stuttering impression.. In F1C I really need above 50 fps to make it feel smooth :-/ And realistic or not, the more sims I play, the more I discover it's the sliping and sliding which I like so much in GPL.. perhaps GPL2 with more realistic tire physics would have been a huge disappointment for me ;) Andre

Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]: > I'm surprised at your fps comments.. 36fps in GPL feels supersmooth to > me, while 36fps in F1C for example give me a stuttering impression.. > In F1C I really need above 50 fps to make it feel smooth :-/ This is interesting. GPL at 36 fps does feel smoother to me than LFS at 50-60... But then F1C feels smoother than both of them, clipping along at 70+ :-) > And realistic or not, the more sims I play, the more I discover it's > the sliping and sliding which I like so much in GPL.. perhaps GPL2 > with more realistic tire physics would have been a huge disappointment > for me ;) He says GPL feels like nothing he's ever driven. Well I bet he's never driven a 1967 Formula One car. ;-)

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Ped Xing) wrote: > He says GPL feels like nothing he's ever driven. Well > I bet he's never driven a 1967 Formula One car. ;-) Dangerous argument to use if you ask me :-) Not sure any of us have had that pleasure! Not sure it'd be a pleasure in RL actually. I can see the epitaph now... "He dreamed of driving, Old F-1 Lotuses, He got his wish, Now he's pushing up crocuses." Andrew McP

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 02:15 +0100 (BST), [email hidden] (Andrew MacPherson) wrote: >most promise for me. (Ok, it's also great displacement activity from >what I *should* be doing!) Should I bite? What *should* you be doing....? :-) John

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (John Wallace) wrote: > Should I bite? What *should* you be doing....? :-) With 40 disappearing in my rear view mirror, and after two years working nearly every day, I've almost paid off my mortgage (one bedroom flat on the dodgy side of the tracks, not *quite* a palace :-). So I can now pretty much knock the overtime on the head for good and get back to failing to be an artist, writer & sim racer. I'm also looking forward to a fully blown mid-life crisis at any point... though statistically it's a bit late for a mid-life crisis ;-) http://www.cix.co.uk/~andrew_mcp may give you an idea why it's easy to get displaced :-) Andrew McP

Andrew MacPherson wrote: > Not sure it'd be a pleasure in RL actually. I can see the epitaph now... > > "He dreamed of driving, > Old F-1 Lotuses, > He got his wish, > Now he's pushing up crocuses." ;) Well yeah, maybe not if you only know two positions for the gas pedal ("OFF" and "FULL")! (Surely, if there evah was a sim that teaches you otherwise the HARD way, it must be GPL) Regards, Rudy