Spoiler - Formula one

So, I guess they're just not going to throw the red flag this year for a start-line crash...? This is at LEAST the second one where most people would think it was warranted... Eldred -- Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my homepage) Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

About 1/3 of the field were taken out including 2 title challengers but we would be nieve in thinking the red flag would come out unless the other red car was in the accident. Dont forget, theyre in Germany as well. -- Steve "They say a glass of wine makes you live longer but there's a drawback with that, the French drink it"" Guvnor. "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > So, I guess they're just not going to throw the red flag this year for a > start-line crash...? This is at LEAST the second one where most people would > think it was warranted... > > Eldred > -- > Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my > homepage) > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"Edgecrusher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bgj1qr$oocf4$[email hidden]... > About 1/3 of the field were taken out including 2 title challengers but wewould be nieve in thinking the red flag would come out > unless the other red car was in the accident. > > Dont forget, theyre in Germany as well. >Perhaps it would be fairer if M.Schumacher was banned from taking part at all, eh ? Seems like you would be much happier with inferior drivers but more exciting racing. There must always be somebody to set the standard., and thank fuck it was M.Schumacher and not some dildo like Coulthard. Or the ever popular (NOT) JPM.

> About 1/3 of the field were taken out including 2 title challengers but wewould be nieve in thinking the red flag would come out

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> unless the other red car was in the accident. > > Dont forget, theyre in Germany as well. > > -- > > Steve

How stupidly cynical...the reason they dont throw reds anymore is cause of pandering to f$�$$^%g tv schedules..its a joke

No, being cynical would be suggesting that it was Schumachers teammate and brother teaming up to wreck Kimi. Its well known that Schumacher gets preferential treament from the FIA, after all, he is the only driver in F1 history that was allowed to serve a stop-go after the race was finished. -- Steve "They say a glass of wine makes you live longer but there's a drawback with that, the French drink it"" Guvnor. "Dan_Leach" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bgj5t2$p4ill$[email hidden]... > How stupidly cynical...the reason they dont throw reds anymore is cause of > pandering to f$�$$^%g tv schedules..its a joke > > >

On 03 Aug 2003 12:10:45 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: >So, I guess they're just not going to throw the red flag this year for a >start-line crash...? This is at LEAST the second one where most people would >think it was warranted... > >Eldred Wonder if it had been done differently if MS had been involved.....

Well this race was certainly the polar opposite of Silverstone. Once his competition was out it seemed like MS was content to just stay on the pace and play the points game, at least until very late in the race. But that strategy caught him out and so perhaps he will think better of it next time. Seemed like the only guys really trying were Montoya and Coulthard. I'm being facetious of course, but their performances were the only ones that really stood out from the rest. Anyway I kind of lost interest after Ralf, Rubens, and Kimi decided to try and make a carbon fiber sandwich. "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > So, I guess they're just not going to throw the red flag this year for a > start-line crash...? This is at LEAST the second one where most peoplewould > think it was warranted... > > Eldred > -- > Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info onmy > homepage) > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <bgj1qr$oocf4$[email hidden]>, "Edgecrusher" <[email hidden]> writes: >About 1/3 of the field were taken out including 2 title challengers but we >would be nieve in thinking the red flag would come out >unless the other red car was in the accident. > >Dont forget, theyre in Germany as well. But seriously - when was the last red flag? I don't think they've had one this year. Eldred -- Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my homepage) Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

True, maybe its the TV schedules, I only hope they are consistant in calling safety cars and red flags from now on and dont take into account who is involved. -- Steve "They say a glass of wine makes you live longer but there's a drawback with that, the French drink it"" Guvnor. "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > But seriously - when was the last red flag? I don't think they've had one this > year. > > Eldred > -- > Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my > homepage) > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <bgj7p1$ou6ct$[email hidden]>, "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> writes: >Anyway I kind of lost interest after Ralf, >Rubens, and Kimi decided to try and make a carbon fiber sandwich. Has anyone heard if Kimi is ok? He looked *thoroughly* shaken up after that. Wicked looking impact... :-( Eldred -- Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my homepage) Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <bgj6d4$p7s0m$[email hidden]>, "Edgecrusher" <[email hidden]> writes: >Its well known that Schumacher gets preferential treament from the FIA, after >all, he is the only driver in F1 history that was >allowed to serve a stop-go after the race was finished. When was THAT? Eldred -- Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my homepage) Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <bgj7p1$ou6ct$[email hidden]>, "Haqsau" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Anyway I kind of lost interest after Ralf, > >Rubens, and Kimi decided to try and make a carbon fiber sandwich. > > Has anyone heard if Kimi is ok? He looked *thoroughly* shaken up after

that. > Wicked looking impact... :-( >According to F1-live.com : Kimi Raikkonen has suffered bruising during the first-corner accident at this afternoon's German Grand Prix. Ron Dennis, speaking to ITV reporters, said that after an examination by doctors in the Medical Centre, Raikkonen has no broken bones, but is suffering from bruising and a stuff neck. "We popped him to the Medical Centre and he has no broken bones," confirmed Dennis. "He has a bruised leg and a stiff neck."

He had some brusing and a sore neck, but he's okay...no broken bones. "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <bgj7p1$ou6ct$[email hidden]>, "Haqsau" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Anyway I kind of lost interest after Ralf, > >Rubens, and Kimi decided to try and make a carbon fiber sandwich. > > Has anyone heard if Kimi is ok? He looked *thoroughly* shaken up after

that. > Wicked looking impact... :-( > > Eldred > -- > Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info onmy > homepage) > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

> > >Its well known that Schumacher gets preferential treament from the FIA,after > >all, he is the only driver in F1 history that was > >allowed to serve a stop-go after the race was finished. > > When was THAT? > > Eldred I guess he's referring to the silverstone GP a few years back... I can't recall the exact year at the moment....

"Edgecrusher" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht news:bgj6d4$p7s0m$[email hidden]... > Its well known that Schumacher gets preferential treament from the FIA,after all, he is the only driver in F1 history that was > allowed to serve a stop-go after the race was finished. i have to disagree on that if you check the FIA rules a stop and go must be taken within 3 laps of that penalty order if you have 3 laps to go when you receive a stop and go, the time will be added to your racetime if you don't pit this is a written rule you can't blame him for that fortunately 3dO

Personally, I got sick of seeing crazy moves off the starting line and then watching everybody run back to the spare cars. Clean starts are part of the skill of racing.

> Wonder if it had been done differently if MS had been involved..... Red flags only come out if it's physically impossible to clear the track - for (at least to me) *obvious* reasons.

"Jimster" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:66aXa.46561$[email hidden]:

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>> >> >Its well known that Schumacher gets preferential treament from the FIA, > after >> >all, he is the only driver in F1 history that was >> >allowed to serve a stop-go after the race was finished. >> >> When was THAT? >> >> Eldred > > I guess he's referring to the silverstone GP a few years back... > I can't recall the exact year at the moment.... > > >

Yup Silverstone... Schumi got a late penalty...and waited til the last lap to come in and serve the penalty. Well, his pit box was past the start/finish line so when he came into the pits to serve the penalty...he crossed the start/finish line for the win or whatever place he got. Ergo..no a no penalty penalty. dave henrie

"Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:vmaXa.8056$[email hidden]: > Personally, I got sick of seeing crazy moves off the starting line and > then watching everybody run back to the spare cars. Clean starts are > part of the skill of racing. > > > The reason there was no red flag today was simple. Nobody had Schumi's prescense of mind to STOP in the middle of the racetrack. Since all the cars had spun clear of the racing surface...no redflag was needed. If any of the partially wounded cars had stopped...then the red flag would have flown. (refer to Hockenheim two or three years ago) dave henrie

So why did he enter the pits on the last lap? I dont recall any time being added either. -- Steve "They say a glass of wine makes you live longer but there's a drawback with that, the French drink it"" Guvnor. "3dO" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3f2d2f12$0$6533$[email hidden]... > i have to disagree on that > if you check the FIA rules a stop and go must be taken within 3 laps of that > penalty order > if you have 3 laps to go when you receive a stop and go, the time will be > added to your racetime if you don't pit > > this is a written rule > you can't blame him for that fortunately > > 3dO > >

he shouldn't have but he did his "thought" he still had 1 lap to go and then it was probably yet another fia f*ckup/favorisme (take your pick) saying something like "he entered the pits to sit out his stop and go while finishing, which is legel, so no time will be added" just another "fair" treatement by the fia according to me that is a fia problem although MS's comments are also highly doubtfull 3dO "Edgecrusher" <[email hidden]> wrote > So why did he enter the pits on the last lap? > I dont recall any time being added either.

"Edgecrusher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bgj6d4$p7s0m$[email hidden]... > Its well known that Schumacher gets preferential treament from the FIA,after all, he is the only driver in F1 history that was > allowed to serve a stop-go after the race was finished. Okay, lets add some facts... Michael was given a 10 second stop go penalty. Unfortunately the stewards at the BGP screwed up, and not only did they not tell the team for many laps, they also handed them a handwritten note explaining the rule broken. At the time, there were two distinct cases for how to serve a penalty, case 'c' was to come into the pits like normal, case 'e' was to add 25 seconds to the total race time. Ferrari didn't know which - the note was handwritten quite badly, assumed that it was case 'e' because of the time between the offence and the penalty notification, but brought him in on the last lap (still within 3 laps of the notification) to cover all bases, just like McLaren or Williams would have done. As it was in fact case 'c', but the delay was due to the race stewards, and no fault of Ferraris, the FIA allowed it to stand, thus Michael won the race in the pitlane.

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > So, I guess they're just not going to throw the red flag this year for a > start-line crash...? This is at LEAST the second one where most peoplewould > think it was warranted... The race director's job is to keep the race going if at all possible. In this case, there were no cars on the track, not a great deal of debris on the track (wheels, for example), and none of the drivers required medical attention (so no medical car was required on the track), so the race continued. In Australia 2002, big first corner accident, but no red flag for the same reason. When Michael was hit from behind by Luciano Burti a few years back, Michaels' car stopped in the middle of T1, with wheels missing, therefore the red flag was thrown. No conspiracy, just common sense.

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <bgj7p1$ou6ct$[email hidden]>, "Haqsau" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Anyway I kind of lost interest after Ralf, > >Rubens, and Kimi decided to try and make a carbon fiber sandwich. > > Has anyone heard if Kimi is ok? He looked *thoroughly* shaken up after

that. > Wicked looking impact... :-( Yeah he's fine, did an interview or two after the race, saying that it wasn't his fault, blah blah blah, and it hurt to walk at the moment because of his bruised leg. He'll be fine. The car spinning and shedding wheels is the best thing you can see when somebody has a big one, from a safety perspective.

In article <[email hidden]>, Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> writes: > The reason there was no red flag today was simple. Nobody had Schumi's >prescense of mind to STOP in the middle of the racetrack. Since all the >cars had spun clear of the racing surface...no redflag was needed. If any >of the partially wounded cars had stopped...then the red flag would have >flown. (refer to Hockenheim two or three years ago) Whoa - interesting theory. Maybe Ralf should have stopped right on the racing line. Or whoever that was who got punted back in the field... Eldred -- Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my homepage) Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <voaXa.8057$[email hidden]>, "Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> writes: >> Wonder if it had been done differently if MS had been involved..... > >Red flags only come out if it's physically impossible to clear the track - >for (at least to me) *obvious* reasons. Although the race went green very quickly. I guess there wasn't as much track 'blockage' as it looked like. But, the last startline crash *definitely* left a lot of crap on the track... Eldred -- Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my homepage) Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bgjfbk$ovpdh$[email hidden]...

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> > Michael was given a 10 second stop go penalty. Unfortunately the stewards at > the BGP screwed up, and not only did they not tell the team for many laps, > they also handed them a handwritten note explaining the rule broken. At the > time, there were two distinct cases for how to serve a penalty, case 'c' was > to come into the pits like normal, case 'e' was to add 25 seconds to the > total race time. Ferrari didn't know which - the note was handwritten quite > badly, assumed that it was case 'e' because of the time between the offence > and the penalty notification, but brought him in on the last lap (still > within 3 laps of the notification) to cover all bases, just like McLaren or > Williams would have done. As it was in fact case 'c', but the delay was due > to the race stewards, and no fault of Ferraris,

Did I say it was? >the FIA allowed it to stand, Thats my problem, they did not add the time penalty, they either have to make him pit or add the penalty, they did neither. > thus Michael won the race in the pitlane. Which he never should have as he was 22 seconds ahead of Hakkinen. Either way he should not have won the race. -- Steve "They say a glass of wine makes you live longer but there's a drawback with that, the French drink it"" Guvnor.

"Nick" When Michael was hit > from behind by Luciano Burti a few years back, Michaels' car stopped > in the middle of T1, with wheels missing, therefore the red flag was > thrown. > > No conspiracy, just common sense. > Ah but Michael was in the process of pulling off the track when he veered back onto the racing line. No conspiracy, just smarts by MS to use the rules to his benefit. dave henrie

"Nick" When Michael was hit Ah but Michael was in the process of pulling off the track when he veered back onto the racing line. No ***, just smarts by MS to use the rules to his benefit. dave henrie

They only throw a red flag if the track is blocked, I believe. -- Sean Higgins PRI-- http://www.performance-racing.net/ My Ferrari pictures http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/ My Trans Am Pictures http://home.attbi.com/~higpup/ "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > So, I guess they're just not going to throw the red flag this year for a > start-line crash...? This is at LEAST the second one where most people would > think it was warranted... > > Eldred > -- > Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my > homepage) > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Or if there is a lot of debris on the track which could have been the case in this incident. Carbon fibre can easily slice through a tyre. -- Steve "They say a glass of wine makes you live longer but there's a drawback with that, the French drink it"" Guvnor. "Sean Higgins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:KkcXa.41079$[email hidden]... > They only throw a red flag if the track is blocked, I believe. > > -- > > Sean Higgins > > PRI-- http://www.performance-racing.net/ >

On 03 Aug 2003 12:10:45 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: >So, I guess they're just not going to throw the red flag this year for a >start-line crash...? This is at LEAST the second one where most people would >think it was warranted... Schumacher survived... It was in Germany... Kimi was out.... (Or am I just being cynical?) John

On Sun, 3 Aug 2003 17:49:35 +0200, "3dO" <[email hidden]> wrote: >this is a written rule >you can't blame him for that fortunately Actually you can. The rules do not explicity say you can't take the penalty AFTER the race finished (which is clearly NOT a penalty), but for sure that's what the intent of the law was. John

On Sun, 03 Aug 2003 16:04:43 GMT, "Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Red flags only come out if it's physically impossible to clear the track - >for (at least to me) *obvious* reasons. Did you see how much carbon fibre was on the track? Also with Ralf taking out two of the title contendors with some pretty amateurish driving, it's really tough on Kimi and Rubens. The only saving grace was that Michael didn't score too many points, which saved it from being too hard on them.

On Sun, 03 Aug 2003 16:24:55 GMT, Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote: > The reason there was no red flag today was simple. Nobody had Schumi's >prescense of mind to STOP in the middle of the racetrack. Since all the >cars had spun clear of the racing surface...no redflag was needed. If any >of the partially wounded cars had stopped...then the red flag would have >flown. (refer to Hockenheim two or three years ago) Well, MS didn't stop, and he stuck DC off the track at T2 right afterwards.. The main problem in F1 is the carbon fibre shards, which are really difficult to clear, and make punctures a lottery

On 03 Aug 2003 16:58:56 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: >Whoa - interesting theory. Maybe Ralf should have stopped right on the racing >line. Or whoever that was who got punted back in the field... I remember Senna doing that in Canada a few years back. They couldn't get his car off the track, so had to red flag the session, which meant he could get towed back to the pits. There was quite a body of evidence among the marshalls suggesting he had his foot on the brake the whole time.... :-) John

> > >Red flags only come out if it's physically impossible to clear thetrack -

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> >for (at least to me) *obvious* reasons. > > Did you see how much carbon fibre was on the track? Also with Ralf > taking out two of the title contendors with some pretty amateurish > driving, it's really tough on Kimi and Rubens. > > The only saving grace was that Michael didn't score too many points, > which saved it from being too hard on them.

I saw the incident as Raikonens fault. He was on the outside approaching a fairly severe right hander in a lot of traffic. He could have given way but he decided to cut across Barrichelo. First corners are a lottery and not everyone is going to get the perfect start, so Raikonen should have allowed for this. Is this what dive bombing is ;) ?

"John Wallace" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Sun, 03 Aug 2003 16:24:55 GMT, Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > > The reason there was no red flag today was simple. Nobody hadSchumi's > >prescense of mind to STOP in the middle of the racetrack. Since all the > >cars had spun clear of the racing surface...no redflag was needed. Ifany > >of the partially wounded cars had stopped...then the red flag would have > >flown. (refer to Hockenheim two or three years ago) > > Well, MS didn't stop, and he stuck DC off the track at T2 right > afterwards.. He got out the car, and walked back to the pits with Burti actually. Then when he heard that the race had been red flagged, he ran to the spare car. You can't make T2 at Hockenheim with no rear wheels, buddy.

"John Wallace" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On 03 Aug 2003 12:10:45 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: > > >So, I guess they're just not going to throw the red flag this year for a > >start-line crash...? This is at LEAST the second one where most peoplewould

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> >think it was warranted... > > Schumacher survived... > It was in Germany... > Kimi was out.... > > (Or am I just being cynical?)

No. (Or am I just being cynical?)

I think they should have a rule that if a driver brings out a red flag due to his car being on the track, he is not allowed to restart. -- Steve "They say a glass of wine makes you live longer but there's a drawback with that, the French drink it"" Guvnor. "John Wallace" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I remember Senna doing that in Canada a few years back. They couldn't > get his car off the track, so had to red flag the session, which meant > he could get towed back to the pits. There was quite a body of > evidence among the marshalls suggesting he had his foot on the brake > the whole time.... > > :-) > > John

"John Wallace" <[email hidden]> wrote

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> >this is a written rule > >you can't blame him for that fortunately > > Actually you can. > > The rules do not explicity say you can't take the penalty AFTER the > race finished (which is clearly NOT a penalty), but for sure that's > what the intent of the law was.

the penalty would be given in an added time difference after the race finnishes in a case where the penalty would not be taken but this didn't happen, that's what i meant. you can't blame him for the fact that that time was not added to his racetime that is a fia / marchal f*ckup (big one if you ask me) 3dO

redTed wrote:

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> > > I saw the incident as Raikonens fault. He was on the outside approaching a > fairly severe right hander in a lot of traffic. He could have given way but > he decided to cut across Barrichelo. First corners are a lottery and not > everyone is going to get the perfect start, so Raikonen should have allowed > for this.

Surely you jest ? Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

"Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > redTed wrote: > > > > > > I saw the incident as Raikonens fault. He was on the outside approachinga > > fairly severe right hander in a lot of traffic. He could have given waybut > > he decided to cut across Barrichelo. First corners are a lottery and not > > everyone is going to get the perfect start, so Raikonen should haveallowed > > for this. > > Surely you jest ? >Nope. Was he on the outside ? Did he have the racing line ? Don't think so, Mr.Larson. If this had happened at one of the infamous Rascar events, we wouldn't hear the last of it.

redTed wrote: > > Nope. > Was he on the outside ? Did he have the racing line ? Don't think so, > Mr.Larson. > If this had happened at one of the infamous Rascar events, we wouldn't hear > the last of it. Now look here Clyde, Kimi didn't turn in, Ralf drifted outwards to get a better entry into the corner, he hit Barichello who in turn hit Kimi who got turned sideways and hit Ralf So while young Kimi may have made an opportunistic move on the outside of the (as usual) slow off the line Ferrari, he didn't actually hit anyone and held his line, the one starting the chain reaction was Ralf and the one who had the best chance of preventing it from going pear shaped was Barichello as he was in the rear as well as in the middle and had a decent view of what was about to happen Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

"Edgecrusher" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:bgjsjq$omqtb$[email hidden]: > I think they should have a rule that if a driver brings out a red flag > due to his car being on the track, he is not allowed to restart. > That might be a-bit tough to enforce evenly. Say if a car was hit and crashed and bounced off armco to stay on the track..through no fault of his own the driver of the hit car does not get to restart? dave henrie

Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

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> > > redTed wrote: >> >> Nope. >> Was he on the outside ? Did he have the racing line ? Don't think >> so, >> Mr.Larson. >> If this had happened at one of the infamous Rascar events, we >> wouldn't hear the last of it. > > Now look here Clyde, Kimi didn't turn in, Ralf drifted outwards to get > a better entry into the corner, he hit Barichello who in turn hit Kimi > who got turned sideways and hit Ralf > > So while young Kimi may have made an opportunistic move on the outside > of the (as usual) slow off the line Ferrari, he didn't actually hit > anyone and held his line, the one starting the chain reaction was Ralf > and the one who had the best chance of preventing it from going pear > shaped was Barichello as he was in the rear as well as in the middle > and had a decent view of what was about to happen > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > "goyl at nettx dot no" > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx-- >

I agree with Goy(gasp!) Kimi was attacking but had not even begun to brake yet. Ralf's move into Ruebens started the whole schmozzle(thankyou Mr Hobbs) Ralf had plenty of room to his right. Ruebens, due to the poor getaway of the Ferrari was trapped and Kimi was the unfortunate 3rd victim of the shunt. If all three had continued straight through normal aproach, braking and turn-in. Ralf, Ruebens and Kimi would have probably emerged in that order. Kimi 'may' have had a shot at completing the pass on Ruebens during the exit of the corner. dave henrie

Dave Henrie wrote:

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> > I agree with Goy(gasp!) Kimi was attacking but had not even begun to > brake yet. Ralf's move into Ruebens started the whole schmozzle(thankyou > Mr Hobbs) Ralf had plenty of room to his right. Ruebens, due to the poor > getaway of the Ferrari was trapped and Kimi was the unfortunate 3rd victim > of the shunt. > If all three had continued straight through normal aproach, braking and > turn-in. Ralf, Ruebens and Kimi would have probably emerged in that order. > Kimi 'may' have had a shot at completing the pass on Ruebens during the > exit of the corner. > dave henrie

And then again I might be wrong......:-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Yes. If its on the grass or in the gravel then hes allowed to restart. If its on the circuit hes not allowed to restart. If thats the rule then drivers will attempt to get off the track hoping for a red flag for debris or another car on the track so they can make the restart. Thats much more preferable than drivers stopping on the racing line on purpose. -- Steve "They say a glass of wine makes you live longer but there's a drawback with that, the French drink it"" Guvnor. "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > That might be a-bit tough to enforce evenly. Say if a car was hit and > crashed and bounced off armco to stay on the track..through no fault of his > own the driver of the hit car does not get to restart? > > dave henrie

Damien Smith wrote: > Personally, I got sick of seeing crazy moves off the starting line and then > watching everybody run back to the spare cars. Clean starts are part of the > skill of racing. > > Agreed. Although there's something to be said for track position obviously. BUT you can't win on lap 1. Same thing I tell people who race N2003 online. I think Rubens got screwed. RS pinched him and Kimi was passing on the outside. Rubens couldn't really do anything. I'd say RS pushed out too far on the turn. Bad move on his part and he screwed himself too. Kimi? got to give it too him for being agressive on the start but it cost him big time on this deal. -jzach

Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

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> redTed wrote: >> >> Nope. >> Was he on the outside ? Did he have the racing line ? Don't think so, >> Mr.Larson. >> If this had happened at one of the infamous Rascar events, we wouldn't >> hear the last of it. > > Now look here Clyde, Kimi didn't turn in, Ralf drifted outwards to get > a better entry into the corner, he hit Barichello who in turn hit Kimi > who got turned sideways and hit Ralf > > So while young Kimi may have made an opportunistic move on the outside > of the (as usual) slow off the line Ferrari, he didn't actually hit > anyone and held his line, the one starting the chain reaction was Ralf > and the one who had the best chance of preventing it from going pear > shaped was Barichello as he was in the rear as well as in the middle > and had a decent view of what was about to happen

I think Goy has said it just right. Kimi might have seen it coming, but he did the best he could by continuing his expected line on the edge of the track. Trying to slow down would more likely cause the punt from behind than not. It's unlikely Ralf knew what was going on behind him, so he just took normal line leaving room for one car on the outside just in case (mental note to myself: leave room for 2 cars in the "just in case" case ;>). Barichello was the only one who saw what was going to happen and could avoid it. Alex.

"J. Zach" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:YMiXa.696$[email hidden]... > Agreed. Although there's something to be said for track position > obviously. BUT you can't win on lap 1 In F1 you can, dont you wathc any races? . Same thing I tell people who > race N2003 online. > > I think Rubens got screwed. RS pinched him and Kimi was passing on the > outside. Rubens couldn't really do anything. He could have lifted, he only just had his front wheel alongside Ralfs rear wheel. -- Steve "They say a glass of wine makes you live longer but there's a drawback with that, the French drink it"" Guvnor.

And avoid taking out Schumacher nearest rivals? C'mon, everyone should know thats not going to happen. -- Steve "They say a glass of wine makes you live longer but there's a drawback with that, the French drink it"" Guvnor. "alexti" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Barichello was the only one who saw what was going to happen and > could avoid it. > > Alex.

>And avoid taking out Schumacher nearest rivals? C'mon, everyone should know >thats not going to happen. You think he got a bonus for that? :-) Eldred -- Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my homepage) Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

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> Now look here Clyde, Kimi didn't turn in, Ralf drifted outwards to get a > better entry into the corner, he hit Barichello who in turn hit Kimi who > got turned sideways and hit Ralf > > So while young Kimi may have made an opportunistic move on the outside > of the (as usual) slow off the line Ferrari, he didn't actually hit > anyone and held his line, the one starting the chain reaction was Ralf > and the one who had the best chance of preventing it from going pear > shaped was Barichello as he was in the rear as well as in the middle and > had a decent view of what was about to happen

It must have been the angle I was watching it at, then ;) I was sure that Kimi made the turn in too fast and hit Barrichello. But I certainly don't go along with the cynical opinion that Barrichello was out to wreck the others.

Barrichello was definitely the victim this time. It's true in the strictest technical sense that if he had backed off the whole thing could have been avoided, but it happened so fast that I don't think it was humanly possible to back off quickly enough to avoid the problem. "redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bglulg$qed0a$[email hidden]... > > > It must have been the angle I was watching it at, then ;) I was sure that > Kimi made the turn in too fast and hit Barrichello. > But I certainly don't go along with the cynical opinion that Barrichellowas > out to wreck the others. > >

>But I certainly don't go along with the cynical opinion that Barrichello was >out to wreck the others. I don't either - I was just joking... I don't think *anyone* would purposly wreck someone in open-wheel cars. Too dangerous, even if you were so inclined... Eldred -- Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my homepage) Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > >But I certainly don't go along with the cynical opinion that Barrichellowas > >out to wreck the others. > > I don't either - I was just joking... I don't think *anyone* wouldpurposly > wreck someone in open-wheel cars. Too dangerous, even if you were so > inclined... > I wasn't referring to you. A couple of others who seem a little more serious made comments.

redTed wrote: > > It must have been the angle I was watching it at, then ;) I was sure that > Kimi made the turn in too fast and hit Barrichello. > But I certainly don't go along with the cynical opinion that Barrichello was > out to wreck the others. Neither do I, even if I wouldn't be surprised if Jean Todt was smiling from ear to ear, neither do I actually blame Berrichello for what happened, I'm just saying that of the 3, he was the one who had the best opportunity to prevent it from happening I also happen to think that punishing Ralf by relegating him 10 spots in the next GP is silly Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Have you heard of Michael Schumacher? Hes done it at least twice.:) -- Steve "They say a glass of wine makes you live longer but there's a drawback with that, the French drink it"" Guvnor. "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I don't either - I was just joking... I don't think *anyone* would purposly > wreck someone in open-wheel cars. Too dangerous, even if you were so > inclined...

> So while young Kimi may have made an opportunistic move on the outside > of the (as usual) slow off the line Ferrari Still nobody notices that Rubens' "poor start" managed to get him up alongside Ralf into T1...

> Have you heard of Michael Schumacher? > > Hes done it at least twice.:) >Answer to your question ......Is he the guy who has set the standard in F1 for the past 10 years ? Then, yes.I know who you mean.

Nick wrote: > > > So while young Kimi may have made an opportunistic move on the outside > > of the (as usual) slow off the line Ferrari > > Still nobody notices that Rubens' "poor start" managed to get him up > alongside Ralf into T1... Hardly "alongside", he managed to get his RF up to Ralf's LR or thereabouts, Ralf *really* messed up his start, but it's not just Barrichello who does slow starts, MS does them as well, clearly the Ferrari's are not the class of the field when it comes to getting off the line Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

Rubens made a poor start on the racing line where the rubber was, Ralf made a poor start on the dirty side, thats how he got to Ralfs rear. If Rubens didnt make a poor start, why was Kimi (who was 2 spots behind him) alongside so quick? -- Steve "They say a glass of wine makes you live longer but there's a drawback with that, the French drink it"" Guvnor. "Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bgm722$pl8e4$[email hidden]... > Still nobody notices that Rubens' "poor start" managed to get him up > alongside Ralf into T1... > >

A.M.Tronic wrote:

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> On 03 Aug 2003 12:10:45 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: > > >>So, I guess they're just not going to throw the red flag this year for a >>start-line crash...? This is at LEAST the second one where most people would >>think it was warranted... >> >>Eldred > > > Wonder if it had been done differently if MS had been involved.....

Oh boy, those black helicopters are circling again... l8er ronny

Racing line comes into play right at the start?? Barachello's launch was weak as hell, Kimi would have been clean past him by the corner seeing how fast he was going. That's a proper move in my book.. Mike http://mikebeauchamp.com "redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bgju6f$oqqjt$[email hidden]...

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> > "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > redTed wrote: > > > > > > > > > I saw the incident as Raikonens fault. He was on the outside

approaching > a > > > fairly severe right hander in a lot of traffic. He could have givenway > but > > > he decided to cut across Barrichelo. First corners are a lottery andnot

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> > > everyone is going to get the perfect start, so Raikonen should have > allowed > > > for this. > > > > Surely you jest ? > > > Nope. > Was he on the outside ? Did he have the racing line ? Don't think so, > Mr.Larson. > If this had happened at one of the infamous Rascar events, we wouldn't

hear > the last of it. > >

[email hidden] (EldredP) wrote in news:[email hidden]: > Has anyone heard if Kimi is ok? He looked *thoroughly* shaken up > after that. Wicked looking impact... :-( How about this pic: http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,6865166% 255E12173,00.html If that tire flew free and hit Rubens...

In article <bgm5v4$pv3uq$[email hidden]>, "Edgecrusher" <[email hidden]> writes: >Have you heard of Michael Schumacher? > >Hes done it at least twice.:) Yeah, and so did Senna, if you look at it that way... <g> Eldred -- Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my homepage) Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:bglulg$qed0a$[email hidden]:

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>> Now look here Clyde, Kimi didn't turn in, Ralf drifted outwards to get >> a better entry into the corner, he hit Barichello who in turn hit Kimi >> who got turned sideways and hit Ralf >> >> So while young Kimi may have made an opportunistic move on the outside >> of the (as usual) slow off the line Ferrari, he didn't actually hit >> anyone and held his line, the one starting the chain reaction was Ralf >> and the one who had the best chance of preventing it from going pear >> shaped was Barichello as he was in the rear as well as in the middle >> and had a decent view of what was about to happen > > It must have been the angle I was watching it at, then ;) I was sure > that Kimi made the turn in too fast and hit Barrichello. > But I certainly don't go along with the cynical opinion that > Barrichello was out to wreck the others.

I doubt anybody races with the intention to wreck others, but Barichello probably wasn't planning to concede any ground to the rivals. If he was in the title chase himself he would more likely opted for caution and conceded position.

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > >But I certainly don't go along with the cynical opinion that Barrichellowas > >out to wreck the others. > > I don't either - I was just joking... I don't think *anyone* wouldpurposly > wreck someone in open-wheel cars. Too dangerous, even if you were so > inclined... > Senna did, and admitted it. Many others have, but have not admitted it. Stephen

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>> I don't either - I was just joking... I don't think *anyone* would >purposly >> wreck someone in open-wheel cars. Too dangerous, even if you were so >> inclined... >> > >Senna did, and admitted it. Many others have, but have not admitted it.

Yeah, I'd forgotten about that at the time, but mentioned it later. Eldred -- Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my homepage) Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

I missed the original message on this, but I don't think Barachello was the instigator of that Lap 1 incident. It look like Ralf Shoemaker was the culprit, right? Whoever it was, it was damned messy! -Larry "Stephen F." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3f2f502e$[email hidden]... > > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > >But I certainly don't go along with the cynical opinion thatBarrichello

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> was > > >out to wreck the others. > > > > I don't either - I was just joking... I don't think *anyone* would > purposly > > wreck someone in open-wheel cars. Too dangerous, even if you were so > > inclined... > > > > Senna did, and admitted it. Many others have, but have not admitted it. > > Stephen > >

"Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:xKQXa.8370$ug.1094@lakeread01:

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> I missed the original message on this, but I don't think Barachello > was the instigator of that Lap 1 incident. It look like Ralf > Shoemaker was the culprit, right? > > Whoever it was, it was damned messy! > > -Larry

Ralf did indeed move over into Ruebens who flinched then held his line. But by then all three cars were too close and Ralf hit Ruebens who hit Kimi. Yes you can say Ralf started it...but I would be really suprised if he even knew Kimi was there too. Ralf was defending against Ruebens who, I'm sure Ralf thought, had plenty of room to give way. Unfortunately he didn't. dave henrie

"Edgecrusher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bgm92r$oun13$[email hidden]... > Rubens made a poor start on the racing line where the rubber was, Ralfmade a poor start on the dirty side, thats how he got to > Ralfs rear. > > If Rubens didnt make a poor start, why was Kimi (who was 2 spots behindhim) alongside so quick? Because Kimi made a great start. I'm not saying Rubens made a great start, just that his start was better than Ralfs'.

"Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Nick wrote: > > Still nobody notices that Rubens' "poor start" managed to get him up > > alongside Ralf into T1... > > Hardly "alongside", he managed to get his RF up to Ralf's LR or > thereabouts, That's what alongside means. Alongside means that if one guy moves over, they will make contact, as Ralf proved...

Nick wrote:

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> > "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Nick wrote: > > > Still nobody notices that Rubens' "poor start" managed to get him up > > > alongside Ralf into T1... > > > > Hardly "alongside", he managed to get his RF up to Ralf's LR or > > thereabouts, > > That's what alongside means. Alongside means that if one guy moves over, > they will make contact, as Ralf proved...

Well according to my dictionary it means either so I'm not going to argue this one, guess I put a slightly different meaning into "alongside" than you do Synonyms: apace with, beside, by, close by, equal with, next to, parallel to Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

The Ferarri's are not known for their Launch Control. This was discussed at length during that race. -Larry "Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bgp4io$r6bgo$[email hidden]...

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> > "Edgecrusher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:bgm92r$oun13$[email hidden]... > > Rubens made a poor start on the racing line where the rubber was, Ralf > made a poor start on the dirty side, thats how he got to > > Ralfs rear. > > > > If Rubens didnt make a poor start, why was Kimi (who was 2 spots behind > him) alongside so quick? > > Because Kimi made a great start. I'm not saying Rubens made a great start, > just that his start was better than Ralfs'. > >

Ralf thought he was in a Nascar 2003 pickup race ie there is only me, me ,me! I told him messing with that sim would get him into bad habits! "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Ralf did indeed move over into Ruebens who flinched then held his line. > But by then all three cars were too close and Ralf hit Ruebens who hit > Kimi. Yes you can say Ralf started it...but I would be really suprisedif > he even knew Kimi was there too. Ralf was defending against Ruebens who, > I'm sure Ralf thought, had plenty of room to give way. Unfortunately he > didn't. > > dave henrie

"Nick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bgjqt7$pfs8a$[email hidden]... > > Well, MS didn't stop, and he stuck DC off the track at T2 right > > afterwards.. > > He got out the car, and walked back to the pits with Burti actually. Then > when he heard that the race had been red flagged, he ran to the spare car. > You can't make T2 at Hockenheim with no rear wheels, buddy. The reference was to the older race, but the discussion (and my comment) were about this year's. ----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

"redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bgjq9f$p64n4$[email hidden]... > I saw the incident as Raikonens fault. He was on the outside approaching a > fairly severe right hander in a lot of traffic. He could have given waybut > he decided to cut across Barrichelo. First corners are a lottery and not > everyone is going to get the perfect start, so Raikonen should haveallowed > for this. No way Raikonnen's fault. He was on that piece of track, unmoving (laterally) - he owned it. Rubens was alongside, also unmoving (laterally) - he owned that. The only one drifting onto an already occupied piece of track was Ralf, hence he was (very correctly) punished for it. ----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

On Sun, 3 Aug 2003 21:51:17 +0100, "Edgecrusher" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I think they should have a rule that if a driver brings out a red flag due to his car being on the track, he is not allowed to >restart. They possibly should, but then he wouldn't have done it, and another rule would be bent. These things all depend upon your preferences (or predjudices, if seen by someone with an opposing view). I like Senna, ergo I respected him for his knowledge of, and exploitation of, the Canada red flag situation, I'm not such a fan of Schumacher, therefore the British GP "no penalty" situation was annoying - but I have to respect him/Ferrari for such rapid knowledge and exploitation of the rules John

"John Wallace" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > "redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:bgjq9f$p64n4$[email hidden]... > > > I saw the incident as Raikonens fault. He was on the outside approachinga

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> > fairly severe right hander in a lot of traffic. He could have given way > but > > he decided to cut across Barrichelo. First corners are a lottery and not > > everyone is going to get the perfect start, so Raikonen should have > allowed > > for this. > > No way Raikonnen's fault. > > He was on that piece of track, unmoving (laterally) - he owned it. > Rubens was alongside, also unmoving (laterally) - he owned that. > > The only one drifting onto an already occupied piece of track was Ralf, > hence he was (very correctly) punished for it.

True, and Ralf's 'I didn't care where everybody else was' comment probably didn't help <g>

"John Wallace" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Sun, 3 Aug 2003 21:51:17 +0100, "Edgecrusher" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >I think they should have a rule that if a driver brings out a red flagdue to his car being on the track, he is not allowed to

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> >restart. > > They possibly should, but then he wouldn't have done it, and another > rule would be bent. These things all depend upon your preferences (or > predjudices, if seen by someone with an opposing view). > > I like Senna, ergo I respected him for his knowledge of, and > exploitation of, the Canada red flag situation, I'm not such a fan of > Schumacher, therefore the British GP "no penalty" situation was > annoying - but I have to respect him/Ferrari for such rapid knowledge > and exploitation of the rules > > John

Exploitation? LOL Just because everyone else stalls it or turns off the car, doesn't mean Ferrari are exploiting the rules, they just KNOW them. -- Sean Higgins PRI-- http://www.performance-racing.net/ My Ferrari pictures http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/ My Trans Am Pictures http://home.attbi.com/~higpup/