I noticed this when I was at the Brickyard 3 weeks ago (using my
stopwatch to time laps), and paid special attention during the
Michigan race on TV. For example, the pole got like 187 MPH at
Michigan, but during the race the highest I saw was 177 IIRC:
they were dropping down into the mid 150's in the middle of
the turns. Do that during a race on Sierra (or vs. the AI at 100%),
and you'll be lapped after 10 laps (even if it has a full pit window
in it). And Michigan's grip rating is about the lowest of all the
ovals oddly enough...
So why are the Cup guys going so much slower during the actual
race than we are? Do they try to save their tires? Save something
else? (grill tape?) What?
John DiFool
Using the realistic weather conditions to the raceday makes a difference in
the game and also affects your speed. Try to get a weather forecast for
Bristol during the Qualifying and see how it stacks up!
"John DiFool" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> >On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 01:16:24 +0200, "Ed Solheim"
> ><[email hidden]> wrote:
> >
> >>Thats exactly what I'm trying to say here; it NOT realistic!
> >>The performance is way too good for such a type of car. It would belike
> >>racing a Mini on steroids (or a V8!) You might aswell fire up GTA orsome
Quoted text (25 lines)
> >>other unrealistic arcade-racer. > > > >Actually, now that I think about it, the same could be said for the > >Cup and BGN cars. Not too many people were complaining about being 2 > >to 4 seconds faster than real life track records everywhere when I > >brought it up 6 months ago, tho. > > > >Jason > > I noticed this when I was at the Brickyard 3 weeks ago (using my > stopwatch to time laps), and paid special attention during the > Michigan race on TV. For example, the pole got like 187 MPH at > Michigan, but during the race the highest I saw was 177 IIRC: > they were dropping down into the mid 150's in the middle of > the turns. Do that during a race on Sierra (or vs. the AI at 100%), > and you'll be lapped after 10 laps (even if it has a full pit window > in it). And Michigan's grip rating is about the lowest of all the > ovals oddly enough... > > So why are the Cup guys going so much slower during the actual > race than we are? Do they try to save their tires? Save something > else? (grill tape?) What? > > John DiFool >Alos, I think it has to do with how agressive they are going to be in a 500
mile race. Also, since their life is on the line literally, the car is
probably set up to drive more "forgiving" on tires older than 5 laps
"Rusty Unger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:bi14dg$66i0$[email hidden]...
> Using the realistic weather conditions to the raceday makes a differencein
Quoted text (39 lines)
> the game and also affects your speed. Try to get a weather forecast for > Bristol during the Qualifying and see how it stacks up! > "John DiFool" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > >On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 01:16:24 +0200, "Ed Solheim" > > ><[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > >>Thats exactly what I'm trying to say here; it NOT realistic! > > >>The performance is way too good for such a type of car. It would be > like > > >>racing a Mini on steroids (or a V8!) You might aswell fire up GTA or > some > > >>other unrealistic arcade-racer. > > > > > >Actually, now that I think about it, the same could be said for the > > >Cup and BGN cars. Not too many people were complaining about being 2 > > >to 4 seconds faster than real life track records everywhere when I > > >brought it up 6 months ago, tho. > > > > > >Jason > > > > I noticed this when I was at the Brickyard 3 weeks ago (using my > > stopwatch to time laps), and paid special attention during the > > Michigan race on TV. For example, the pole got like 187 MPH at > > Michigan, but during the race the highest I saw was 177 IIRC: > > they were dropping down into the mid 150's in the middle of > > the turns. Do that during a race on Sierra (or vs. the AI at 100%), > > and you'll be lapped after 10 laps (even if it has a full pit window > > in it). And Michigan's grip rating is about the lowest of all the > > ovals oddly enough... > > > > So why are the Cup guys going so much slower during the actual > > race than we are? Do they try to save their tires? Save something > > else? (grill tape?) What? > > > > John DiFool > > > >I believe there are too many real life variables that cannot be modeled
accurately into a "simulator" and thus the computer racer never really has
to deal with them. i.e. oily track, dry track, road friction, true wind and
aero forces acting on the cars surface. There are many, many more, these are
just a few examples that come to mind. They can come close, but still there
are so many mind boggling variables.
When it comes to computer racing, I am convinced that the only thing you are
truly racing against is the other drivers system and his skill. Setup has
just a minor role in the whole picture.
That's just my take on the whole deal.
Peter
Earth calling; it is a VIDEO GAME!!!!
Dan
John DiFool wrote:
Quoted text (33 lines)
>>On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 01:16:24 +0200, "Ed Solheim" >><[email hidden]> wrote: >> >> >>>Thats exactly what I'm trying to say here; it NOT realistic! >>>The performance is way too good for such a type of car. It would be like >>>racing a Mini on steroids (or a V8!) You might aswell fire up GTA or some >>>other unrealistic arcade-racer. >> >>Actually, now that I think about it, the same could be said for the >>Cup and BGN cars. Not too many people were complaining about being 2 >>to 4 seconds faster than real life track records everywhere when I >>brought it up 6 months ago, tho. >> >>Jason > > > I noticed this when I was at the Brickyard 3 weeks ago (using my > stopwatch to time laps), and paid special attention during the > Michigan race on TV. For example, the pole got like 187 MPH at > Michigan, but during the race the highest I saw was 177 IIRC: > they were dropping down into the mid 150's in the middle of > the turns. Do that during a race on Sierra (or vs. the AI at 100%), > and you'll be lapped after 10 laps (even if it has a full pit window > in it). And Michigan's grip rating is about the lowest of all the > ovals oddly enough... > > So why are the Cup guys going so much slower during the actual > race than we are? Do they try to save their tires? Save something > else? (grill tape?) What? > > John DiFool >
"John DiFool" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> >On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 01:16:24 +0200, "Ed Solheim"
> ><[email hidden]> wrote:
> >
> >>Thats exactly what I'm trying to say here; it NOT realistic!
> >>The performance is way too good for such a type of car. It would belike
> >>racing a Mini on steroids (or a V8!) You might aswell fire up GTA orsome
The real guys can't hit the ESC key and walk away from a massive pileup as
easily as we can.
Quoted text (25 lines)
> >>other unrealistic arcade-racer. > > > >Actually, now that I think about it, the same could be said for the > >Cup and BGN cars. Not too many people were complaining about being 2 > >to 4 seconds faster than real life track records everywhere when I > >brought it up 6 months ago, tho. > > > >Jason > > I noticed this when I was at the Brickyard 3 weeks ago (using my > stopwatch to time laps), and paid special attention during the > Michigan race on TV. For example, the pole got like 187 MPH at > Michigan, but during the race the highest I saw was 177 IIRC: > they were dropping down into the mid 150's in the middle of > the turns. Do that during a race on Sierra (or vs. the AI at 100%), > and you'll be lapped after 10 laps (even if it has a full pit window > in it). And Michigan's grip rating is about the lowest of all the > ovals oddly enough... > > So why are the Cup guys going so much slower during the actual > race than we are? Do they try to save their tires? Save something > else? (grill tape?) What? > > John DiFool >"John DiFool" wrote...
I think there's 3 reasons:
1) According to that Jasper guy the sim has 50hp more than even the most
aggressively tuned engine in RL Cup racing.
2) Tracks in the sim are perfect (no little bumps, no cracks, no run off
from the tyres, no dust, no oil dry, etc....). I also think real Cup cars
suffer more from each other's turbulence than we do.
3) Absense of RL danger and the opportunity to experiment ad infinum with
settings in the sim.
Jan.
=---
Quoted text (16 lines)
> > <snip> > I noticed this when I was at the Brickyard 3 weeks > ago (using my stopwatch to time laps), and paid > special attention during the Michigan race on TV. > For example, the pole got like 187 MPH at Michigan, > but during the race the highest I saw was 177 IIRC: > they were dropping down into the mid 150's in the > middle of the turns. Do that during a race on Sierra (or > vs. the AI at 100%), and you'll be lapped after 10 laps > (even if it has a full pit window in it). And Michigan's > grip rating is about the lowest of all the ovals oddly > enough... > > So why are the Cup guys going so much slower during > the actual race than we are? Do they try to save their > tires? Save something else? (grill tape?) What?On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:52:37 GMT, "Jan Verschueren"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
>3) Absense of RL danger.
I don't buy that for a second. If you think that some daredevil with a
deathwish can lop off seconds or even tenths just by having a gung-ho
banzai attitude you're deluding yourself, IMHO. In these top levels of
racing the guys is on 99.9% of what's possible(when they have to).
Anything less is a comprimise, like sparing the material. The
daredevils either crash, cook their tyres or break their cars.
"Magnus Svensson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
ACtually I think Jan is right. Before you can finish first, first you have
to finish. Do they push themselves and the equipment to the edge? Yes,
likely. But these are pure-bread racing machines capable of going well PAST
the edge and not many people do that, even in qualifying unless you're Ryan
Newman.
Quoted text (12 lines)
> On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:52:37 GMT, "Jan Verschueren" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >3) Absense of RL danger. > > I don't buy that for a second. If you think that some daredevil with a > deathwish can lop off seconds or even tenths just by having a gung-ho > banzai attitude you're deluding yourself, IMHO. In these top levels of > racing the guys is on 99.9% of what's possible(when they have to). > Anything less is a comprimise, like sparing the material. The > daredevils either crash, cook their tyres or break their cars. >"Magnus Svensson" wrote...
We're talking about why certain simracers can make the cars in the sim go
quicker than in real life. Even when the real life guys push 110% in
qualifying, they still need that car and that driver in good shape for the
race the next day. You can't rebuild a car and heal broken bones overnight.
I'm sure putting extreme settings on the car and doing extreme things
controlling it would bring significant gain in the real world. There's just
no one that can afford and survive crashing and burning 50 times to make it
work.
> Anything less is a comprimise, like sparing the material.
> The daredevils either crash, cook their tyres or break
> their cars.
Which doesn't happen in the sim, hence you can go faster in the sim than in
real life... even if everything is modelled correctly.
Jan.
=---
Quoted text (8 lines)
> >3) Absense of RL danger. > > I don't buy that for a second. If you think that some > daredevil with a deathwish can lop off seconds or even > tenths just by having a gung-ho banzai attitude you're > deluding yourself, IMHO. In these top levels of racing > the guys is on 99.9% of what's possible(when they have > to).In article <fY91b.79533$[email hidden]>, Jan
Verschueren <[email hidden]> writes
Not sure I agree with this. You seem to be saying that the only sim
racers who are going to be doing laps quicker than the real world
drivers are those who are also going to be putting it into the wall
every 5 minutes. Surely there are those who are not only quicker, but
also safe.
No-one seems to have mentioned the fact the real world drivers actually
have an advantage over us simmers, which should help them keep the car
on the track, and that is the physical feedback (seat of the pants) that
they can use to determine how close to the edge they are driving. I
would have thought that this would allow them to drive a lot closer to
the edge and still keep it going forward, compared to a sim racer who
cannot use those cues, and therefore result in fewer accidents.
Look how close some of the racing is in real life. Real door-to-door
stuff. The kind of thing a sim driver would just not have a hope of
replicating without an accident. This shows that real world racing
affords the driver a far better feel and control over the car and if
they can race that close at those speeds then I don't see any reason
why, given the same car performance, that they should be just as quick
through the corners without any fear of spinning out.
--
Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington)
Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email
If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :)
GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77
Quoted text (20 lines)
>"Magnus Svensson" wrote... >> >3) Absense of RL danger. >> >> I don't buy that for a second. If you think that some >> daredevil with a deathwish can lop off seconds or even >> tenths just by having a gung-ho banzai attitude you're >> deluding yourself, IMHO. In these top levels of racing >> the guys is on 99.9% of what's possible(when they have >> to). > >We're talking about why certain simracers can make the cars in the sim go >quicker than in real life. Even when the real life guys push 110% in >qualifying, they still need that car and that driver in good shape for the >race the next day. You can't rebuild a car and heal broken bones overnight. > >I'm sure putting extreme settings on the car and doing extreme things >controlling it would bring significant gain in the real world. There's just >no one that can afford and survive crashing and burning 50 times to make it >work. >If you can go past it, it wasn't really the edge.
"SimRacer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:ZJ91b.22200$[email hidden]...
>
> Do they push themselves and the equipment to the edge? Yes,
> likely. But these are pure-bread racing machines capable of going wellPAST
> the edge ...
>
>
Simmer can run weight all the way to the rear, soften the front springs and slap on traction control, ABS, steering asstistance and
stability control and have a car thats fast yet impossible to spin out.
That doesnt really work in the real world, does it?
--
Steve
"They say a glass of wine makes you live longer but there's a drawback with that, the French drink it"
Guvnor.
"Peter Ives" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jGvD5XAvjTR$EwZ$@pgives.ALL_STRESSfreeserve.co.uk...
> >We're talking about why certain simracers can make the cars in the sim go
> >quicker than in real life. Even when the real life guys push 110% in
> >qualifying, they still need that car and that driver in good shape for the
> >race the next day. You can't rebuild a car and heal broken bones overnight.
> >
> >I'm sure putting extreme settings on the car and doing extreme things
> >controlling it would bring significant gain in the real world. There's just
> >no one that can afford and survive crashing and burning 50 times to make it
> >work.
> >
>
> Not sure I agree with this. You seem to be saying that the only sim
> racers who are going to be doing laps quicker than the real world
> drivers are those who are also going to be putting it into the wall
> every 5 minutes. Surely there are those who are not only quicker, but
> also safe.
>
> No-one seems to have mentioned the fact the real world drivers actually
> have an advantage over us simmers, which should help them keep the car
> on the track, and that is the physical feedback (seat of the pants) that
> they can use to determine how close to the edge they are driving. I
> would have thought that this would allow them to drive a lot closer to
> the edge and still keep it going forward, compared to a sim racer who
> cannot use those cues, and therefore result in fewer accidents.
>
> Look how close some of the racing is in real life. Real door-to-door
> stuff. The kind of thing a sim driver would just not have a hope of
> replicating without an accident. This shows that real world racing
> affords the driver a far better feel and control over the car and if
> they can race that close at those speeds then I don't see any reason
> why, given the same car performance, that they should be just as quick
> through the corners without any fear of spinning out.
> --
> Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington)
> Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email
> If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :)
> GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77
"Edgecrusher" <[email hidden]> kirjoitti viestiss�
news:bi4tec$55s5q$[email hidden]...
> Simmer can run weight all the way to the rear, soften the front springsand slap on traction control, ABS, steering asstistance and
> stability control and have a car thats fast yet impossible to spin out.
well, after the N2003 1.1.0.2 patch, that kind of setup has eaten RF way too
much to be competitive.
--
Mika Takala
The 1.1.0.3 patch is now obsolete, they found out you can have 6 gears in Cup mode.
The new patch is 1.2.0.0. Can someone post it in binaries if they have it?
--
Steve
"They say a glass of wine makes you live longer but there's a drawback with that, the French drink it"
Guvnor.
"Mika Takala" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:Ght1b.273$[email hidden]...
> well, after the N2003 1.1.0.2 patch, that kind of setup has eaten RF way too
> much to be competitive.
>
> --
> Mika Takala
>
>
In article <bi4tec$55s5q$[email hidden]>, Edgecrusher
<[email hidden]> writes
I'm sure they can, though I'm not sure that was the point of what was
being discussed. We were talking about why sim cars are faster than
their real-world counterparts and Jan said he felt one of the reasons
was because real-world drivers are slower because they CANNOT afford to
drive that close to the edge for fear of an accident that sim racers
don't need to worry about and therefore sim racers may be quicker, but
at the expense of consistency.
I was disputing that premise as I felt real-world drivers CAN drive as
close, if not closer to the edge than sim drivers because they have the
benefit of real-world cues that us sim racers don't have.
Now it may well be that a sim car can be set up to drive without
spinning out, but does that prove Jan's theory that real-world drivers
are not able to drive as close to the edge as sim drivers?
However, I certainly would dispute with you that the only way to drive
consistently in NR2003 is to set the car up in a way that real-world
drivers cannot. I'm sure there are many drivers out there who are both
fast and consistent and who don't use any of those aids or setup
'features' at all. I may not be the quickest, though I expect I'm not
too shabby, and I can keep the car on the track for lap after lap on my
own without spinning out, but there is no way I would want to do so with
any of those 'driving aids'.
> >I'm sure putting extreme settings on the car and doing extreme things
> >controlling it would bring significant gain in the real world.There's just
> >no one that can afford and survive crashing and burning 50 times tomake it
actually
> have an advantage over us simmers, which should help them keep the car
> on the track, and that is the physical feedback (seat of the pants)that
--
Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington)
Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email
If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :)
GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77
Quoted text (8 lines)
>Simmer can run weight all the way to the rear, soften the front springs and >slap on traction control, ABS, steering asstistance and >stability control and have a car thats fast yet impossible to spin out. >That doesnt really work in the real world, does it? >Quoted text (10 lines)
> >work. > > > > Not sure I agree with this. You seem to be saying that the only sim > racers who are going to be doing laps quicker than the real world > drivers are those who are also going to be putting it into the wall > every 5 minutes. Surely there are those who are not only quicker, but > also safe. > > No-one seems to have mentioned the fact the real world driversQuoted text (12 lines)
> they can use to determine how close to the edge they are driving. I > would have thought that this would allow them to drive a lot closer to > the edge and still keep it going forward, compared to a sim racer who > cannot use those cues, and therefore result in fewer accidents. > > Look how close some of the racing is in real life. Real door-to-door > stuff. The kind of thing a sim driver would just not have a hope of > replicating without an accident. This shows that real world racing > affords the driver a far better feel and control over the car and if > they can race that close at those speeds then I don't see any reason > why, given the same car performance, that they should be just as quick > through the corners without any fear of spinning out."Peter Ives" wrote...
No, that's why I had it as reason nr. 3 and, indeed there are those who are
quick but can't keep it on the island, those who can but are not safe to
race with and those with whom I'd go toe to toe every day, the point is none
of these guys died or went bankrupt getting to the level they're at.
Real racing cars are designed and built to be driven in a certain fashion
(in order to get the maximum out of it safely) and every aspiring racing
driver had better learn how to do that in a short space of time or his
career will grind to a halt one way or another. Ergo: drivers at the top
levels of real motorsport will drive more or less the same way and will
extract speed from the car in the same way. This is not the case in the sim
world
I'm not trying to be holier than thou', I bend the rules too and probably
still spin more than I should in practise. I don't "die" as much as I used
to before I studied some materials on being a race driver, though.
However, the point is there is no external factor which forces the driver to
compromise his driving style along the learning curve in the simworld, which
makes for an interesting mix of styles and approaches online (and a lot of
frustration for those who try to drive "properly", but that's another
story).
Ok, reason number 4: not being in a debilitatingly hot and loud environment.
Not suffering the forces the car (and driving) subject the driver to. Not
being cramped, tossed about by bumps in the track and, for non-FF users, not
having the car fight back through the steering wheel.
Obviously, fear of spinning out or breaking something on the car is not in
the concious mind of the driver as he goes around the track, but it plays
its part his appreciation of the limit and his sustainable pace.
Also, it's perfectly possible for simracers to race eachother closely, just
not using the internet. The problems with close racing stem from the
relative variations in latency between the drivers so the game reality
presented to each is slightly different from the other's perspective. It's
not a matter of sensory deprivation on the part of the simracer.
Jan.
=---
