RASCAR: all this could have been avoided if you listened to me

Well it seems it all finally happened. You guys obsession with yellows finally killed off rascar, because its "such an important part of racing." Um, no. To me, racing is about completing a certain distance in the shortest amount of time. Those who drive the fastest tend to win. If you wreck, you wreck, why should we compromise the whole race just for you? You wanna win a fuel mileage race? Shoulda been a truck driver. We raced online, with lag, and with people of different skills. The difference between us and the pickup servers is that we all intended to race clean. In a green flag only race with these kind of people, we would have had magnificent races. Just look how fun the road course races were. It was because we werent driving around with our thumbs up our asses for 2 hours. Even if you arent on the lead lap, its still fun to race. With green flags, the field would spread, causing less wrecks, and the fastest person would win the race. What a fucking concept. But no, you had to have your yellows. And look what you got out of it.

"frederickson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:mZV2b.84$[email hidden]... > Well it seems it all finally happened. You guys obsession with yellows > finally killed off rascar, because its "such an important part of racing." It didn't have anything to do with yellows. Kyle

"Kyle Roberts" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:diY2b.10142$[email hidden]... > > "frederickson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:mZV2b.84$[email hidden]... > > Well it seems it all finally happened. You guys obsession with yellows > > finally killed off rascar, because its "such an important part ofracing." > > It didn't have anything to do with yellows. > > Kyle It had everything to do with yellows Kyle. The problem was there too damn many of them. John was trying to address that in his own inimitable way. If you accept any ras member into the races without condition (and I believe you should), car control and racecraft become serious issues and yellows will flow. This is why I and others suggested just turning them off. Currently, they have no strategic significance whatsoever due to the number of them. In respect of turning off yellows, the coup appears to have changed little. What does seem to be appreciated though is that if we keep yellows on, the standard of driving needs to be raised via some form of rookie test. Whilst I would prefer to turn the yellows off, given that the consensus is that it forms "such an important part of racing" and that they should remain on, the rookie test is the only way to go. As always, I'll give the new system a go. If it results in me still spending 60% race time under yellow I'll reconsider. Regards

Question. Could a third party sit in and simply watch the racing, especially when new members race. Then maybe note who is consitantly causing "yellows". Once they are located somehow get them "up to speed" before allowing them back? "Neil Charlton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bii6f2$8r2$[email hidden]...

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> > "Kyle Roberts" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:diY2b.10142$[email hidden]... > > > > "frederickson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:mZV2b.84$[email hidden]... > > > Well it seems it all finally happened. You guys obsession with yellows > > > finally killed off rascar, because its "such an important part of > racing." > > > > It didn't have anything to do with yellows. > > > > Kyle > > It had everything to do with yellows Kyle. > > The problem was there too damn many of them. John was trying to address

that

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> in his own inimitable way. If you accept any ras member into the races > without condition (and I believe you should), car control and racecraft > become serious issues and yellows will flow. This is why I and others > suggested just turning them off. Currently, they have no strategic > significance whatsoever due to the number of them. > > In respect of turning off yellows, the coup appears to have changed

little. > What does seem to be appreciated though is that if we keep yellows on, the > standard of driving needs to be raised via some form of rookie test.Whilst > I would prefer to turn the yellows off, given that the consensus is thatit > forms "such an important part of racing" and that they should remain on,the > rookie test is the only way to go. > > As always, I'll give the new system a go. If it results in me stillspending > 60% race time under yellow I'll reconsider. > > Regards > >

Either that or a session before the race - something like: "I want you to run 4 laps on what is your race pace with ideal on and sticking to the line throughout. I then want you to run 2 laps on the high line all the way round and two laps on the low line." It might surprise you how many might have difficulty with that simple test. Regards "Newshound" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:QJ33b.333$[email hidden]... > Question. > > Could a third party sit in and simply watch the racing, especially whennew

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> members race. > Then maybe note who is consitantly causing "yellows". > Once they are located somehow get them "up to speed" before allowing them > back? > > > > > "Neil Charlton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:bii6f2$8r2$[email hidden]... > > > > "Kyle Roberts" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:diY2b.10142$[email hidden]... > > > > > > "frederickson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:mZV2b.84$[email hidden]... > > > > Well it seems it all finally happened. You guys obsession with

yellows

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> > > > finally killed off rascar, because its "such an important part of > > racing." > > > > > > It didn't have anything to do with yellows. > > > > > > Kyle > > > > It had everything to do with yellows Kyle. > > > > The problem was there too damn many of them. John was trying to address > that > > in his own inimitable way. If you accept any ras member into the races > > without condition (and I believe you should), car control and racecraft > > become serious issues and yellows will flow. This is why I and others > > suggested just turning them off. Currently, they have no strategic > > significance whatsoever due to the number of them. > > > > In respect of turning off yellows, the coup appears to have changed > little. > > What does seem to be appreciated though is that if we keep yellows on,

the

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> > standard of driving needs to be raised via some form of rookie test. > Whilst > > I would prefer to turn the yellows off, given that the consensus is that > it > > forms "such an important part of racing" and that they should remain on, > the > > rookie test is the only way to go. > > > > As always, I'll give the new system a go. If it results in me still > spending > > 60% race time under yellow I'll reconsider. > > > > Regards > > > > > >

"Neil Charlton" wrote... > <snip> So you're suggesting turning one of the self-punishing aspects of the sim off? I take it people like driving at racing speed, so, if they mess up, I think it's only just they get punished by dawdling along for a couple laps (and having fairly annoyed fellow competitors to deal with after the race). Anyway, regardless how many there are, they can always play a strategic role. If there hadn't been a quick yellow after I'd looped it out of 2 at Michigan (without bringing out a caution) I wouldn't have been in a position to challenge for 2nd in the end. Jan. =---

Yellows aren't self-punishing, they punish everyone _except_ the guy who caused the yellow, as they give him a chance to catch up with the main field again, thus diminishing the punishment for bad driving to close to NIL. As for the strategic effect - if you consider soberly, you can't avoid but coming to the conclusion that this strategic effect is about 0.01% in significance as compared to the fun-killer effect yellows have if they come as often as they _often_ (not always) do in RASCAR. Turning them off would still be the first thing I'd do in RASCAR to increase the overall fun. This is of course only my opinion, but I quit racing RASCAR because I got so bored with the yellows, and for no other reason. Achim "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:w363b.2032$[email hidden]...

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> "Neil Charlton" wrote... > > <snip> > > So you're suggesting turning one of the self-punishing aspects of the sim > off? > > I take it people like driving at racing speed, so, if they mess up, I

think > it's only just they get punished by dawdling along for a couple laps (and > having fairly annoyed fellow competitors to deal with after the race). > > Anyway, regardless how many there are, they can always play a strategic > role. If there hadn't been a quick yellow after I'd looped it out of 2 at > Michigan (without bringing out a caution) I wouldn't have been in aposition > to challenge for 2nd in the end. > > Jan. > =--- > >

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:w363b.2032$[email hidden]... > "Neil Charlton" wrote... > > <snip> > > So you're suggesting turning one of the self-punishing aspects of the sim > off?[snip] 'fraid I just don't get that one Jan. I'm not claiming I never bring out a yellow (if for no other reason than Colin Harris would be on like a flash to remind me ;) ) but if I do, and I avoid major damage, I've effectively 'got away with it'. If there were no yellows, as I recovered from my spin I would see Tim et al disappearing into the distance and out of my reach (like he wouldn't be anyway). This is the punishment. I think I'm rambling a bit now. Joachim summarises it better than me I think. I think my position is clear on this (as is yours) so I won't keep banging on about it. As long as something is done to reduce the time spent under yellow I'll live with it. I just fear it ain't going to happen. I also think it's important to realise the different perspectives in this matter. I'm a little on the weird side. I like maximum challenge, no aids, 100% races - in short, a couple of hours of intensity is what I'm after. Others may actually enjoy brief blasts interspersed with 'breathers' where a laugh or two can be had (assuming those chatting under yellow are not liable to execution). Yet others may enjoy the 'lottery effect' of a few yellows in a race - the strategic effect. This latter example is probably the nearest to true NASCAR simulation but, in my experience, happens infrequently in RASCAR races. If it were indeed the norm (as it is in my other leagues) I would also enjoy that. I did say I'd stop rambling. I hope the latest efforts to cut down on the yellows is successful - I'll try to do my bit to keep it on the black stuff. Regards

I would say that yellows punish everyone *in front* of the incident that caused the yellow. All the victims of the incident get a chance to get back in the race. "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:biirig$a17n9$[email hidden]... > Yellows aren't self-punishing, they punish everyone _except_ the guy who > caused the yellow, as they give him a chance to catch up with the mainfield > again, thus diminishing the punishment for bad driving to close to NIL. > >

"Neil Charlton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<bii6f2$8r2$[email hidden]>...

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> "Kyle Roberts" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:diY2b.10142$[email hidden]... > > > > "frederickson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:mZV2b.84$[email hidden]... > > > Well it seems it all finally happened. You guys obsession with yellows > > > finally killed off rascar, because its "such an important part of > racing." > > > > It didn't have anything to do with yellows. > > > > Kyle > > It had everything to do with yellows Kyle. > > The problem was there too damn many of them. John was trying to address that > in his own inimitable way. If you accept any ras member into the races > without condition (and I believe you should), car control and racecraft > become serious issues and yellows will flow. This is why I and others > suggested just turning them off. Currently, they have no strategic > significance whatsoever due to the number of them.

As an outsider looking in, and addressing strictly this issue and none of the political nonsense that has been spewing lately, I'd have to say the fact that yellows are on is probably doing you more harm than good. A group of drivers is NEVER going to learn to RACE together if they spend most of the time running around under yellow. Once you start talking about skills tests, tryouts, etc. you have moved beyond what anyone would think of as pickup racing. Ask yourself how many pickup races you have ever even bothered to join that had yellows on? It is a complete waste of time. Nobody wants to do it. I have been in MANY pickup races without yellows on that did not have intentional spoilers. As far as I could tell, everybody was trying to do their best. Did people ever screw up? Sure. Did I ever get caught up in someone elses screwup? Sure. Did I ever spend lap after lap sitting in a parade? No. I already do that twice every work day, why the hell would I bother when I am trying to relax and have a good time? Many of these races wound up being very enjoyable after things settled down. Your group will get better and the racing will improve if you just concentrate on running under green for a while. And stick to wide, easy tracks. Bristol and Darlington are miserable races for a lot of PROs. Why make it hard on yourselves? You will find that more folks show up since you are not continually advertising what a miserable time it was. Hope you guys can pull it together somehow. Before now I always looked forward to the weekly recaps. Gerald

In article <bii6f2$8r2$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> > "Kyle Roberts" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:diY2b.10142$[email hidden]... > > > > "frederickson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:mZV2b.84$[email hidden]... > > > Well it seems it all finally happened. You guys obsession with yellows > > > finally killed off rascar, because its "such an important part of > racing." > > > > It didn't have anything to do with yellows. > > > > Kyle > > It had everything to do with yellows Kyle. > > The problem was there too damn many of them. John was trying to address that > in his own inimitable way. If you accept any ras member into the races > without condition (and I believe you should), car control and racecraft > become serious issues and yellows will flow. This is why I and others > suggested just turning them off. Currently, they have no strategic > significance whatsoever due to the number of them. > > In respect of turning off yellows, the coup appears to have changed little. > What does seem to be appreciated though is that if we keep yellows on, the > standard of driving needs to be raised via some form of rookie test. Whilst > I would prefer to turn the yellows off, given that the consensus is that it > forms "such an important part of racing" and that they should remain on, the > rookie test is the only way to go. > > As always, I'll give the new system a go. If it results in me still spending > 60% race time under yellow I'll reconsider. > > Regards > > >

Actually, Neil, I'd like to get a trans am thing going. I prefer roadies anyway. No cautions, too. :)

In article <biipt0$e7m$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> Either that or a session before the race - something like: > > "I want you to run 4 laps on what is your race pace with ideal on and > sticking to the line throughout. I then want you to run 2 laps on the high > line all the way round and two laps on the low line." > > It might surprise you how many might have difficulty with that simple test. >

I actually do practice running less desireable lines (high all the way around, and low all the way around) just so I have a feeling for how the car is going to react. I go as fast as possible while doing that too, and that kind of practice is why I can run side-by-side without losing too many spots (if any) as well as not bumping into anyone.

"Neil Charlton" wrote... > ,snip> > 'fraid I just don't get that one Jan. I'm not claiming > I never bring out a yellow (if for no other reason than > Colin Harris would be on like a flash to remind me ;) ) > but if I do, and I avoid major damage, I've effectively > 'got away with it'. You haven't as even for minor damage and flatspotted tyres, you're now pitting under green, getting more than a lap down at most places without any chance of making that up (unless you spun at the point where you needed to pit anyway). You haven't gotten away with anything, you've just put yourself out of the race. > If there were no yellows, as I recovered from my spin > I would see Tim et al disappearing into the distance > and out of my reach (like he wouldn't be anyway). This > is the punishment. And a racer of lesser calibre than yourself would simply quit and go do something else, because, let's face it, he doens't have to answer to anybody for doing so and the race would slowly empty. Or, alternatively, he might start racing anyone he comes across (to extract some entertainment from the race), annoying the crap out of the other drivers (I've had that happen to me in another series this year... I was livid). > I think I'm rambling a bit now. Joachim summarises it > better than me I think. I think my position is clear > on this (as is yours) so I won't keep banging on about > it. As long as something is done to reduce the time > spent under yellow I'll live with it. I just fear it > ain't going to happen. Well, it's no use crying over spilled milk. It always boils down to the drivers anyway, no matter what system is in place. So I suggest you help motivate people to have more concious, courteous and, therefore, better races. As far as I'm concerned, if something is worth simulating, it's worth doing it properly and accepting the consequences on all levels. > I also think it's important to realise the different > perspectives in this matter. I'm a little on the weird > side. I like maximum challenge, no aids, 100% races - > in short, a couple of hours of intensity is what I'm > after. Just don't let go of the intensity under yellow. I don't usually. > Others may actually enjoy brief blasts interspersed with > 'breathers' where a laugh or two can be had (assuming > those chatting under yellow are not liable to execution). Well, in another Bristol race earlier, things went green for nearly 30 laps, with me being under pressure all the way. I wasn't used to the laundromat effect yet and must admit I had a tough time of it. I appreciated the breather there. But it can't be breather, getting up to speed, breather, etc... either. It's got to strike a balance, then it also strikes a balance with the different types of driver, IMO. > Yet others may enjoy the 'lottery effect' of a few yellows > in a race - the strategic effect. This latter example is > probably the nearest to true NASCAR simulation but, in my > experience, happens infrequently in RASCAR races. If it > were indeed the norm (as it is in my other leagues) I > would also enjoy that. Exactly why I thought it should be more league-like, but it turned out differently. Let's just give it a couple races. > I did say I'd stop rambling. I hope the latest efforts to > cut down on the yellows is successful - I'll try to do my > bit to keep it on the black stuff. Track=good, car=bad, wall=bad. Very simple!! <g> Jan. =---

"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... [snip] > Actually, Neil, I'd like to get a trans am thing going. I prefer > roadies anyway. No cautions, too. :) Now you're talking. We could call it RANSAM (as in being held to). TTFN

[snip] Now you're talking. We could call it RANSAM (as in being held to). TTFN

"Neil Charlton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:biiuad$mdh$[email hidden]... > 'fraid I just don't get that one Jan. I'm not claiming I never bring out a > yellow (if for no other reason than Colin Harris would be on like a flashto > remind me ;) ) My goodness, I've got these FFRL guys well-trained! Any Euros looking for a spot on our roster, btw?

"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <biipt0$e7m$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] > says... > > Either that or a session before the race - something like: > > > > "I want you to run 4 laps on what is your race pace with ideal on and > > sticking to the line throughout. I then want you to run 2 laps on thehigh > > line all the way round and two laps on the low line." > > > > It might surprise you how many might have difficulty with that simpletest.

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> > > > I actually do practice running less desireable lines (high all the > way around, and low all the way around) just so I have a feeling for > how the car is going to react. I go as fast as possible while doing > that too, and that kind of practice is why I can run side-by-side > without losing too many spots (if any) as well as not bumping into > anyone.

As I know most of the NASCAR tracks now, and as we use fixed setups, I tend to do just a 30 min or so preparation. The first bit consists of bouncing off the walls reminding myself where the edge of the envelope is. The second bit is watching the AI to make sure I know restart line, pace speed, pit in and out locations. Third bit is a fuel/tyre run on x2. Then finally I use the JS technique and finish off by running a few laps on the high line and then a few on the low line. Great minds think alike. Seems to work well enough :) The more I think of it, the more I think RASCAR would benefit from a rookie test of this type. I think this is what Mitch has in mind - haven't spoken to him about it. It could potentially be intimidating to newcomers (like recent activity isn't ;) ) but if it's done sensitively and is perceived as a challenge as the races themselves are and if help, advice and support is on hand then I think it could work well. Maybe we could even keep the yellows ;) Regards

"Colin Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:w4b3b.44$[email hidden]... > > "Neil Charlton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:biiuad$mdh$[email hidden]... > > 'fraid I just don't get that one Jan. I'm not claiming I never bring outa > > yellow (if for no other reason than Colin Harris would be on like aflash

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> to > > remind me ;) ) > > > > My goodness, I've got these FFRL guys well-trained! > > Any Euros looking for a spot on our roster, btw? > >

See - told ya ;)

Correct. -Larry "Kyle Roberts" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:diY2b.10142$[email hidden]... > > "frederickson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:mZV2b.84$[email hidden]... > > Well it seems it all finally happened. You guys obsession with yellows > > finally killed off rascar, because its "such an important part ofracing." > > It didn't have anything to do with yellows. > > Kyle > >