RASCAR: Richmond Race Reminder

Sat. Richmond 3 pm est server opens for 90 min practice Server Name: ~Extreme~TSW2 40% race distance Yellows on David G Fisher

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... [snip] > Yellows on I'll give it a go but if it goes the way I fear I'll make an early exit. cya there

[snip] I'll give it a go but if it goes the way I fear I'll make an early exit. cya there

"Neil Charlton" wrote... > <snip> > I'll give it a go but if it goes the way I fear I'll make an early exit. Sorry Neil, but I've had it up to here with this defeatist attitude which permeates throughout NASCAR online. If everybody just kept their mind on the job and gave the other drivers the credit they'd like to receive in return, the number of yellows would be halved overnight. Expecting it to suck (or thinking the track or setup sucks) will deminish the amount of effort en concentration you're willing to put into the race in order to make it work and that only contributes to drag a race down. It really does help if everyone's keyed up at the prospect of the race. It also keeps morale up if there is a couple of successive quick yellows. So cheer up, think positive!! ;-)) Jan. =---

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:v8j6b.4027$[email hidden]...

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> "Neil Charlton" wrote... > > <snip> > > I'll give it a go but if it goes the way I fear I'll make an early exit. > > Sorry Neil, but I've had it up to here with this defeatist attitude which > permeates throughout NASCAR online. >

Not defeatist Jan - a pessimist is merely an optimist with experience of life ;) > If everybody just kept their mind on the job and gave the other driversthe > credit they'd like to receive in return, the number of yellows would be > halved overnight. No arguments here but experience has shown is isn't so much a matter of keeping the mind on the job as basic car control. > Expecting it to suck (or thinking the track or setup sucks) will deminish > the amount of effort en concentration you're willing to put into the racein > order to make it work and that only contributes to drag a race down. It > really does help if everyone's keyed up at the prospect of the race. Italso > keeps morale up if there is a couple of successive quick yellows. I don't think any track sucks. If anything, I go better on short tracks road courses - it's only the SS that bore me to tears. Fearing the worst does not imply I would put in less offort or concentration. A more sensitive chap could get annoyed at the mere suggestion ;) > > So cheer up, think positive!! ;-)) I am positive Jan. I was positive we were going to give no yellows a chance. I appreciate I am in a minority in this respect and I always go with what the group decides. However, I do not expect to have my committment questioned when I do voice my opinion. My opinion is this: if we go back to yellows on with no other mechanism for keeping the yellows down other than hoping for the best I know that my Saturday night 'fun-factor' will be diminished. I'm not basing this on pessimism just on a reasonably long experience with RASCAR. My last intent was to 'piss people off' - I've always thought of myself as a reasonable guy. If my swimming against the mainstream opinion is getting on people's nerves I'll withdraw. In fact, I'll start with tonight. Regards > > Jan. > =--- > >

In article <bjcj1r$69n$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> > "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:v8j6b.4027$[email hidden]... > > > > So cheer up, think positive!! ;-)) > > I am positive Jan. I was positive we were going to give no yellows a chance. > I appreciate I am in a minority in this respect and I always go with what > the group decides.

I was under the same impression. Does anyone know why yellows are on now, or was this a seemingly arbitrary decision made by the admins without the democratic approval of the group? (Sorry guys, I couldn't resist this opportunity.) Since I'm not in RASCAR any longer (and hence, not on the mailing list), and since there's almost no message traffic on the forum anymore, I have to rely on stuff being posted here. Of course, it could be something as simple as a typo, or something done out of habit. > However, I do not expect to have my committment > My opinion is this: if we go back to > yellows on with no other mechanism for keeping the yellows down other than > hoping for the best Hmmmm... Sounds like what I had been saying all along. > My last intent was to 'piss people off' - I've > always thought of myself as a reasonable guy. Again, sounds like what I was saying. Be careful here, Neil. :)

"Neil Charlton" wrote... > > <snip> > > Not defeatist Jan - a pessimist is merely an optimist > with experience of life ;) A pessimistic view is not nescessarily a realistic view. There is no real reason to believe tonights race will feature an excessive amount of yellows. It would unrealistic to expect no yellows (as in no yellows occuring). Some things just can't be avoided. In view of the week he'd had, I'm sure Kurt Busch would have avoided getting into Sterling Marlin if he could have helped it, but things just happen and you have to get on with what results of the situation. > > <snip> > No arguments here but experience has shown is isn't so > much a matter of keeping the mind on the job as basic > car control. Everybody in RASCAR has enough car control to avoid the avoidable, it's all in the mind. It's all about discipline in preparation and on the track. One either has to discipline oneself to practise before the race and turn up well prepared (that means unlikely to have to explore the unknown in order to react to an on-track situation) or one has to discipline oneself to stay within one's basic capabilities. The time to find out you can't hold a particular line in a fight for position is in practise, not during the race. One can't "try" to overtake another driver in the race. One has to know whether one can do it that way or not before deciding to "try" and take that position away. I believe that raising awareness and raising group morale (more on that later) will benifit the races and that's why I challenge those who focus on the negative. > > <snip> > I don't think any track sucks. If anything, I go better on > short tracks road courses - it's only the SS that bore me > to tears. Translation: "I lack the discipline to stay focussed at Super Speedways." <vwg> > Fearing the worst does not imply I would put in less > offort or concentration. A more sensitive chap could > get annoyed at the mere suggestion ;) We might be getting into semantics here, but I consider it a logic impossibility to give a race your full attention if you decide in advance it will have to meet certain criteria for it to keep your attention. I don't even mind if that point of view upsets you... I have to take the edge of that speed of yours in some way or another. ;-)) > > <snip> > I am positive Jan. I was positive we were going to > give no yellows a chance. > I appreciate I am in a minority in this respect and > I always go with what the group decides. There was an overwhelming majority that wanted to run Darlington with yellows off (mine was the minority vote on that one), but I understood the vote as being specific to that race, which appears to have been the correct interpretation. Running without yellows is being considered, but you have to admit there hasn't been a lot of feedback on the issue. There's been almost zero talk about Darlington. I think people have clammed up for fear of causing another blow-out. Some are clearly looking at me to make some choice comments on several incidents (not all of them involving contact), but I haven't seen the server replay (I turned down the number of cars shown to improve framerate so my local replay doesn't tell the whole story on this one) yet so it's hard for me to step forward. It's also hard for Mitch and Dave to change the format on a permanent basis without input or hearing at least some different opinions on the Darlington no-yellows race. If I may turn things around for a moment, I was surprised to see the majority on the no-yellows vote for Darlington go against me. When that was said and done though, I got on with it and tried to turn the situation to the best of my advantage. I did enjoy it less than some of the low yellow count races we've had, but I was competitive with those on the same strategy and I got a good placing out of it. That wouldn't have happened if I'd dropped my head and gone in thinking I'd be wrecked and forced out of contention. As it turns out I was forced out of contention by Huggings, Ginger and others because they managed to go a lot quicker and still get 45 laps out of their tyres, but that doesn't alter my outlook. I'm in it to win it and I enjoy stepping up to the challenges the races pose, whatever they may be (yes: even if that means keeping focus and drive when dawdling around behind the pacecar). > However, I do not expect to have my committment questioned > when I do voice my opinion. Yet you do seem to enter these races with two motives which cannot always co-exist: to do well in the race and to have fun. You can choose to battle for position extensively early in the race and have fun, but it will slow you down and deminish your chances of actually winning the race (especially if you get into an accident). On the other hand, a couple of guys must finish 1, 2 and 3, even in a messy/boring race. It's up to you how to juggle those motives as you compete. > My opinion is this: if we go back to yellows on with no > other mechanism for keeping the yellows down other than > hoping for the best It's not hoping for the best. Being positive and confident and instilling that in others does help. SAS soldiers are incredibly fit, undergo constant and advanced training and are exceptionally well equipped, but the real reason they are better than regular troops is they have utter and unwavering belief in their abilities / their commanders and their ability to sublimate anything and everything to the job in hand. A squaddie might think "Oh man... a field excercise. Setting and breaking up camp every day, eating bland personal rations, not getting myself clean properly, the rain, the mud, the heat/the cold, the insects....". An SAS trooper receives his instructions and then goes ahead and does it. It's a mindset... and a mindset that can be promoted. I am confident I can run in the race tonight and avoid the avoidable, I'm confident most of the others can too if they've got their heads screwed on rigth. I'm not entirely confident about that last bit, but I wasn't going to let that show, if you understand what I mean. > I know that my Saturday night 'fun-factor' will be diminished. > I'm not basing this on pessimism just on a reasonably long > experience with RASCAR. ...reasonably long experience of focussing on the negatives in RASCAR, rather. <vwg> I might have agreed with you before I started doing the reviews and really paying attention to people's driving, but I cannot agree now. It's not a matter of car control, but of self control. It's a matter of getting people to avaluate their driving without feeling insulted. That can only be done by pointing out the positive while mentioning the negative. > My last intent was to 'piss people off' - I've always thought > of myself as a reasonable guy. I thought I made it clear you merely tipped the scales for me to make a public statement. I'm not pissed off. I'm a little annoyed, just like I was when Eldred condemned the Bristol race to a yellow fest before it even started. > If my swimming against the mainstream opinion is getting on > people's nerves I'll withdraw. You can say "I'd like to see yellows of in RASCAR races because..." as much as you like. People will be yelling for us to start a seperate newsgroup again long before I'll grow tired of debating the issue. I do mind the "*I* will race as long as *I* am entertained"-comment. Having a good race is a team effort, you are just as responsible for my racing enjoyment as I am for yours. Having good drivers present in the race to pit myself against, is part of my racing enjoyment. > In fact, I'll start with tonight. Priority check, isle 4. <vbseg> Jan. =---

I don't understand the confusion. The drivers meeting message for Darlington clearly stated it was a one-time test. Nothing more, nothing less. Larry "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <bjcj1r$69n$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] > says... > > > > "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:v8j6b.4027$[email hidden]... > > > > > > So cheer up, think positive!! ;-)) > > > > I am positive Jan. I was positive we were going to give no yellows a

chance. > > I appreciate I am in a minority in this respect and I always go withwhat

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> > the group decides. > > I was under the same impression. Does anyone know why yellows are on > now, or was this a seemingly arbitrary decision made by the admins > without the democratic approval of the group? (Sorry guys, I > couldn't resist this opportunity.) > > Since I'm not in RASCAR any longer (and hence, not on the mailing > list), and since there's almost no message traffic on the forum > anymore, I have to rely on stuff being posted here. > > Of course, it could be something as simple as a typo, or something > done out of habit. > > > However, I do not expect to have my committment > > My opinion is this: if we go back to > > yellows on with no other mechanism for keeping the yellows down other

than

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> > hoping for the best > > Hmmmm... Sounds like what I had been saying all along. > > > > My last intent was to 'piss people off' - I've > > always thought of myself as a reasonable guy. > > Again, sounds like what I was saying. Be careful here, Neil. > > :) >

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:pcn6b.4804$[email hidden]...

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> "Neil Charlton" wrote... > > > <snip> > > > > Not defeatist Jan - a pessimist is merely an optimist > > with experience of life ;) > > A pessimistic view is not nescessarily a realistic view. There is no real > reason to believe tonights race will feature an excessive amount of

yellows. > It would unrealistic to expect no yellows (as in no yellows occuring).Some > things just can't be avoided.[snip] I actually don't mind a 'few yellows' - they add a strategic content which is interesting. Yellows every 10 laps or less are not strategic nor are they interesting. > > > <snip> > > No arguments here but experience has shown is isn't so > > much a matter of keeping the mind on the job as basic > > car control. > > Everybody in RASCAR has enough car control to avoid the avoidable, it'sall > in the mind. It's all about discipline in preparation and on the track.[snip]> I totally agree with this. Unfortunately, it needs all present to have the same attitude. Even a few with brains in neutral will bring about the succession of yellows. Some find it almost inpossible to adopt that mindset - how do you deal with that? > I believe that raising awareness and raising group morale (more on that > later) will benifit the races and that's why I challenge those who focuson > the negative. >Group morale is important - one reason why if there are a few yellows, chatting a little is for the good of the group. However, it is not leadership to simply keep chanting 'keep up morale' - morale depends to a large extent on the quality of the racing and the character of the participants. On the latter, I don't recall ever having anything but good relationships with anyone in RASCAR - they're a great bunch. That only leaves the quality of racing ......

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> > > <snip> > > I don't think any track sucks. If anything, I go better on > > short tracks road courses - it's only the SS that bore me > > to tears. > > Translation: "I lack the discipline to stay focussed at Super Speedways." > <vwg>

The grin is noted ;) However, on SS I usually hang in with the lead draft train and rarely ever have any incidents. It's not lacking discipline to stay focussed it's that the challenge in doing so is minimal and therefore less fun. This is obviously a personal perspective - others love SS and good luck to them. > > Fearing the worst does not imply I would put in less > > offort or concentration. A more sensitive chap could > > get annoyed at the mere suggestion ;) > > We might be getting into semantics here, but I consider it a logic > impossibility to give a race your full attention if you decide in advanceit > will have to meet certain criteria for it to keep your attention. I don't > even mind if that point of view upsets you... I have to take the edge of > that speed of yours in some way or another. ;-)) But of course I didn't say it would have to meet certain criteria to keep my attention. If the race is not enjoyable, my attention doesn't wander - I owe that to those I'm racing with. It does affect my motivation to participate in future races but then that's my loss I guess. > > > <snip>[snip]

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> > However, I do not expect to have my committment questioned > > when I do voice my opinion. > > Yet you do seem to enter these races with two motives which cannot always > co-exist: to do well in the race and to have fun. You can choose to battle > for position extensively early in the race and have fun, but it will slow > you down and deminish your chances of actually winning the race

(especially > if you get into an accident). On the other hand, a couple of guys must > finish 1, 2 and 3, even in a messy/boring race. It's up to you how tojuggle > those motives as you compete. >You're predicating this on the assumption that fun just equates to battling for position. Fun is also had by working a strategy - be that blasting out an early lead or running slower to conserve tyres. I find all aspects of a realistic race fun. Once a yellow-fest begins all strategy goes out of the door and takes with it a large chunk of the fun. I am very happy to run with yellows on - I do so in my other leagues and they are brilliant fun - but I think we find ourselves in a position where we need to take concrete steps to ensure a reasonable number of yellows as opposed to just hoping. This is what John tried to and I applaud that effort.

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> > My opinion is this: if we go back to yellows on with no > > other mechanism for keeping the yellows down other than > > hoping for the best > > It's not hoping for the best. Being positive and confident and instilling > that in others does help. > > SAS soldiers are incredibly fit, undergo constant and advanced training

and > are exceptionally well equipped, but the real reason they are better than > regular troops is they have utter and unwavering belief in their abilities/

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> their commanders and their ability to sublimate anything and everything to > the job in hand. A squaddie might think "Oh man... a field excercise. > Setting and breaking up camp every day, eating bland personal rations, not > getting myself clean properly, the rain, the mud, the heat/the cold, the > insects....". An SAS trooper receives his instructions and then goes ahead > and does it. It's a mindset... and a mindset that can be promoted. >

??? > I am confident I can run in the race tonight and avoid the avoidable, I'm > confident most of the others can too if they've got their heads screwed on > rigth. I'm not entirely confident about that last bit, but I wasn't goingto

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> let that show, if you understand what I mean. > > > > I know that my Saturday night 'fun-factor' will be diminished. > > I'm not basing this on pessimism just on a reasonably long > > experience with RASCAR. > > ...reasonably long experience of focussing on the negatives in RASCAR, > rather. <vwg>

Come on Jan. I raced all last year and all this season and other than during 'recent events' when have you ever heard negativity from me, either on the track or off. > > I might have agreed with you before I started doing the reviews and really > paying attention to people's driving, but I cannot agree now. It's not a > matter of car control, but of self control. It's a matter of gettingpeople > to avaluate their driving without feeling insulted. That can only be doneby > pointing out the positive while mentioning the negative. You may have a point but the outcome's the same. A lack of self discipline to drive within one's own car control constraints has the same effect as not having enough car control. > > > My last intent was to 'piss people off' - I've always thought > > of myself as a reasonable guy. > > I thought I made it clear you merely tipped the scales for me to make a > public statement. I'm not pissed off. I'm a little annoyed, just like Iwas

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> when Eldred condemned the Bristol race to a yellow fest before it even > started. > > > If my swimming against the mainstream opinion is getting on > > people's nerves I'll withdraw. > > You can say "I'd like to see yellows of in RASCAR races because..." as

much > as you like. People will be yelling for us to start a seperate newsgroup > again long before I'll grow tired of debating the issue. > > I do mind the "*I* will race as long as *I* am entertained"-comment.Having > a good race is a team effort, you are just as responsible for my racing > enjoyment as I am for yours. Having good drivers present in the race topit > myself against, is part of my racing enjoyment. This is my free time Jan, of which I get precious little. I *do* wish to be entertained. For that to happen I have to treat others with respect and drive within my own limits which I usually do (although red mist has been known in the last few laps ;) ). If having done that, the race is still not enjoyable then it would border on the masochistic to keep doing it. The last race was fun (for me - and I didn't do particularly well!). More importantly, I think I know what made it fun. > > > In fact, I'll start with tonight. > > Priority check, isle 4. <vbseg> Priority check is dead right Jan. I know a lot of people thrive on the recent acrimonious events. I hated it. I really don't want to spend every week arguing about the format of the next race. Equally, I don't want to spend my Saturday nights behind a pace car. I'm damn sure others don't want to listen to me banging on about stuff like this every week. I thought we were ok from last week but I had obviously misinterpreted what was going on. I'm not withdrawing tonight because I can't have my own way - it doesn't work with me like that. It's just that I would rather go away quietly than keep moaning. The alternative is to race tonight and then carry on with the moaning about yellows next week. I don't want that so I'll STFU and not race Regards

Not confused Larry. I was just hoping the test would lead to something. No big deal. Regards "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:LDn6b.30996$Go4.14050@lakeread01...

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> I don't understand the confusion. The drivers meeting message for > Darlington clearly stated it was a one-time test. Nothing more, nothing > less. > > Larry > > "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <bjcj1r$69n$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] > > says... > > > > > > "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:v8j6b.4027$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > So cheer up, think positive!! ;-)) > > > > > > I am positive Jan. I was positive we were going to give no yellows a > chance. > > > I appreciate I am in a minority in this respect and I always go with > what > > > the group decides. > > > > I was under the same impression. Does anyone know why yellows are on > > now, or was this a seemingly arbitrary decision made by the admins > > without the democratic approval of the group? (Sorry guys, I > > couldn't resist this opportunity.) > > > > Since I'm not in RASCAR any longer (and hence, not on the mailing > > list), and since there's almost no message traffic on the forum > > anymore, I have to rely on stuff being posted here. > > > > Of course, it could be something as simple as a typo, or something > > done out of habit. > > > > > However, I do not expect to have my committment > > > My opinion is this: if we go back to > > > yellows on with no other mechanism for keeping the yellows down other > than > > > hoping for the best > > > > Hmmmm... Sounds like what I had been saying all along. > > > > > > > My last intent was to 'piss people off' - I've > > > always thought of myself as a reasonable guy. > > > > Again, sounds like what I was saying. Be careful here, Neil. > > > > :) > > > >

In article <pcn6b.4804$[email hidden]>, "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> writes: >I thought I made it clear you merely tipped the scales for me to make a >public statement. I'm not pissed off. I'm a little annoyed, just like I was >when Eldred condemned the Bristol race to a yellow fest before it even >started. Hey, don't bring ME back into this...<g> But since you did, I have YET to see a Bristol online race without a ton of yellows. Past occurences/experiences shape present perception. One GPL league I'm in ran 3 races last weekend at Watkins Glen on successive nights. Every one of those had a T1 pileup. I've been in league races at Solitude - *every* race(maybe 10-12 total) featured a T1 crash. From my point of view, you can't run a race at Solitude without a T1 wreck... :-) I just don't get it - it doesn't seem that hard to ME, but better drivers than I am can't seem to avoid crashing. What's up with THAT? Eldred -- "A voice from the crowd: Right, everyone out of my garden. I've had enough of this!" Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank -2.4 N2k3 rank ? Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP wrote: > I just don't get it - it doesn't seem that hard to ME, but better drivers than > I am can't seem to avoid crashing. What's up with THAT? When you're fast you're on the very edge and on the very edge, it's "from ace to twit in a tenth of a second" Eldred, as Graham Hill said ;) Regards, Rudy (GPLRank -7.8)

"Neil Charlton" wrote... > > <snip> > I actually don't mind a 'few yellows' - they add a strategic > content which is interesting. Yellows every 10 laps or less > are not strategic nor are they interesting. It's an easy way to stay on the lead lap for a late push. <g> > > <snip> > I totally agree with this. Unfortunately, it needs all > present to have the same attitude. Even a few with brains > in neutral will bring about the succession of yellows. > Some find it almost inpossible to adopt that mindset - > how do you deal with that? Well, herein lies the rub, obviously. There's only two ways of doing that. One is to effectively punish those who have brainfade -not an option under current circumstances. The other is to be "sickeningly positive" and just wear people down into compliance. <g> > > <snip> > Group morale is important - one reason why if there are a > few yellows, chatting a little is for the good of the group. > However, it is not leadership to simply keep chanting 'keep > up morale' - morale depends to a large extent on the quality > of the racing and the character of the participants. There's very little one can do on-track to improve the racing, so I'm working the avenue that is available. > On the latter, I don't recall ever having anything but good > relationships with anyone in RASCAR - they're a great bunch. > That only leaves the quality of racing ...... They are a great bunch *and* more than capable of having good races. In fact, not having good races with drivers this good and this closesy matched is inexcusable.

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> > <snip> > The grin is noted ;) However, on SS I usually hang in with > the lead draft train and rarely ever have any incidents. > It's not lacking discipline to stay focussed it's that the > challenge in doing so is minimal and therefore less fun. > This is obviously a personal perspective - others love SS > and good luck to them.

The challenge is to stay focussed, the challenge (in open setup racing) is to set up the car to handle in the couple of 1/10ths per lap you really need it to. The challenge is to move up without getting hung out to dry. The challenge is to get the other drivers to work with you. I'll agree there's not much to the driving part, but the rest is chess at 185mph and that aspect makes it interesting.

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> > <snip> > But of course I didn't say it would have to meet certain > criteria to keep my attention. If the race is not > enjoyable, my attention doesn't wander - I owe that to > those I'm racing with. It does affect my motivation to > participate in future races but then that's my loss I > guess.

Now this I can live with, but it's not what you originally wrote. It might be what you originally intended, but not what you wrote. <g> > > <snip> > You're predicating this on the assumption that fun just > equates to battling for position. Fun is also had by > working a strategy - be that blasting out an early lead > or running slower to conserve tyres. I find all aspects > of a realistic race fun. I would rather classify that as satisfaction and keep "fun" reserved for sliding the car around and climbing all over the back of another car. "Fun" is something you sublimate to the strategy, if you know what I mean. > Once a yellow-fest begins all strategy goes out of the > door and takes with it a large chunk of the fun. Yeah, events can overtake a strategy and even make it backfire, but that is just another aspect of the racing. With no yellows there's indeed less chance of being forced to change strategy, but the side-effects are not worth the this benefit, IMO. > I am very happy to run with yellows on - I do so in my other > leagues and they are brilliant fun - but I think we find > ourselves in a position where we need to take concrete steps > to ensure a reasonable number of yellows as opposed to just > hoping. This is what John tried to and I applaud that effort. I was not ready to go the repressive route but I went along with it as, if applied consistenly, it does work. However, motivating people is more than just hoping. > > <snip> It's a mindset... and a mindset that can be > > promoted. > ??? It's very simple... if most believe there's going to be a lot of yellows, that it's unavoidable there will a lot of yellows. Consciously or subconsciously they'll go out at full tilt, knowing they're not going to run out of tyre or they might tense up when in close proximity of others or whatever. If you expect to have an accident, you will have one, that's how runs of bad luck come about. If, on the other hand, you can get people believing in their ability to the extent there is no reason for them to expect there being a lot of yellows if they just do what they do, there won't be a lot of yellows. Trust me, it really does work. > > <snip> > Come on Jan. I raced all last year and all this season > and other than during 'recent events' when have you > ever heard negativity from me, either on the track or > off. Just exaggerating Neil. You're right, the general consensus was and is that it has gone too far, but it's not something you can withdraw from and come back to when it's better. Because if you do it's not going to get better. Can't have good races without sensible drivers leading by example and you can't attract sensible drivers to wreckfests... catch 22. > > <snip> > You may have a point but the outcome's the same. A lack of > self discipline to drive within one's own car control > constraints has the same effect as not having enough car > control. Bull. Not enough car control needs time to put in the virtual miles and might even require hardware change if the problem is framerate related. A discipline problem can be rectified over night without as much as turning a wheel. Like Keith Code says, thinking about it just costs the time for you to do it, track time costs money. Perhaps people fail to realise simracing is only partially "a gift". The rest is an interest in the sport and a learned skill. It does require analysis of what you're doing and it does take conscious effort to improve. As with any "game" it does require one to "take it seriously" to ascend past a certain level.

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> > > This is my free time Jan, of which I get precious little. > I *do* wish to be entertained. For that to happen I have > to treat others with respect and drive within my own > limits which I usually do (although red mist has been > known in the last few laps ;) ). If having done that, the > race is still not enjoyable then it would border on the > masochistic to keep doing it.

It does, no question. It's a matter of how bad one wants to race. "How bad have you got it?" <vbg> > The last race was fun (for me - and I didn't do particularly > well!). More importantly, I think I know what made it fun. The last two races weren't a lot of fun for me, for different reasons, eventhough I got a fairly good result in both. If yellows were to be turned off for the remaining races they all wouldn't be a lot of fun, so I'll take my chances, thanks. > > <snip> > Priority check is dead right Jan. I know a lot of people > thrive on the recent acrimonious events. I hated it. I don't think anyone came out of that feeling particularly good. I would rather the current situation had not produced itself as vetoing the introduction of enforced rules takes away a lot of the pressure for people to behave. > I really don't want to spend every week arguing about the > format of the next race. Equally, I don't want to spend my > Saturday nights behind a pace car. I'm damn sure others > don't want to listen to me banging on about stuff like > this every week. We can't decide the yellows/no yellows thing on a per race basis. We need analyse what happened at Darlington, discuss and reach a consensus. I suggest we shelve the issue until such time we're able to do that.

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> I thought we were ok from last week but I had obviously > misinterpreted what was going on. I'm not withdrawing > tonight because I can't have my own way - it doesn't work > with me like that. It's just that I would rather go away > quietly than keep moaning. The alternative is to race > tonight and then carry on with the moaning about yellows > next week. I don't want that so I'll STFU and not race

I'm glad to see the desire to burn some rubber won out and I'm sorry the race did turn out to be questionable. Very unfortunate for us to get together as well, sorry about that. Yellows do seem to be on a haired trigger there. Don't really see why some of 'm were thrown. On the other hand there were a couple of instances where I could see the accident coming a mile away. I need to find out why those involved didn't and arm everyone with that knowledge. If I can get through in this manner it will improve the racing over time. Whether you want to be part of that process or not is up to you. What's up with the pacecar at this track, BTW? -Even if the leader had nearly a lap to run in order to take the yellow it still didn't manage to make it out to the backstretch in time to catch him. Is this something that can be edited with the Sandbox editor? Jan. =---

"EldredP" wrote... > <snip> > Hey, don't bring ME back into this...<g> <vwg> > But since you did, I have YET to see a Bristol online > race without a ton of yellows. Past occurences/experiences > shape present perception. Yes, but you do realise that's a viscious circle which needs to be broken? > One GPL league I'm in ran 3 races last weekend at Watkins > Glen on successive nights. Every one of those had a T1 pileup. That's simply pittyfull. > I've been in league races at Solitude - *every* race (maybe > 10-12 total) featured a T1 crash. From my point of view, > you can't run a race at Solitude without a T1 wreck... :-) That's strange as T2 is by far the more dangerous turn at the start. Most of the events I've been in got through both, but if it went wrong it was at T2. > I just don't get it - it doesn't seem that hard to ME, but > better drivers than I am can't seem to avoid crashing. > What's up with THAT? You're right, it's not that hard. It's fairly easy in fact. Also I'd hestitate to call drivers who routinely get involved in this kind of incident better than you. Faster on their own, perhaps more confident, but certainly not better. Jan. =---

"Ruud Dingemans" wrote... > > <snip> > When you're fast you're on the very edge and on the very > edge, it's "from ace to twit in a tenth of a second" Eldred, > as Graham Hill said ;) Nice quote, but that has got to be the lamest excuse for T1 accidents I've ever heard. When it's crunch time, you're dicing for position, both drivers are maxed out and it gets away or goes pearshaped, then that may be excusable. Missing one's braking or running out of room in T1 simply isn't. Being fast means f*** all if you can't make it through the 1st turn in one piece. Jan. =---

In article <MoF6b.6572$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> "Neil Charlton" wrote... > > You may have a point but the outcome's the same. A lack of > > self discipline to drive within one's own car control > > constraints has the same effect as not having enough car > > control. > > Bull. Not enough car control needs time to put in the virtual miles and > might even require hardware change if the problem is framerate related. A > discipline problem can be rectified over night without as much as turning a > wheel. Like Keith Code says, thinking about it just costs the time for you > to do it, track time costs money.

Looks to me like you guys are arguing the same point from a different angle. I've always said people need to practice more in order to gain some self-confidence and to *know* how the car is going to react in different situations. Given that RASCAR uses the <fast> setups (widely recognized as being almost completely unsuitable for the majority of drivers out there), this is the most important aspect of racing. Not having to come up with your own setup relieves you of a LOT of the hassle of preparing for a race because all you have to do is get used to the one everyone else will be using. If you don't know that the setup pushes on exit after 5, 10, 0r 15 laps, then you haven't practiced enough. If you don't know what the car is going to do at the end of a fuel run, you haven't practised enough. If you don't know what the car is going to do if you blow a turn entry and drift way high, you haven't practised enough. If, by the time the race session starts, you haven't decided whether or not you can hold it together for the whole race, you should quit the race, and start practicing for the next event. Yellows can be an important part of race strategy, and most of the online leagues that exist today run with them turned on. There's absolutely no reason to expect an online race to go caution-free, but at the same time, you shouldn't have to worry about whether or not 50% of the laps will be run under the yellow flag. Turning cautions off doesn't teach anyone anything. You have to be willing to call people out for doing stupid shit, and the people you call out should be willing to admit when they screwed up, and then be able to learn from it.

In article <x8G6b.6642$[email hidden]>, "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>"EldredP" wrote... >> <snip> >> Hey, don't bring ME back into this...<g> > ><vwg> > >> But since you did, I have YET to see a Bristol online >> race without a ton of yellows. Past occurences/experiences >> shape present perception. > >Yes, but you do realise that's a viscious circle which needs to be broken? >

I go into every race knowing that I can drive the entire distance. That's why I prefer longer races - I feel it gives me an advantage. Granted, I simply *outlast* most people, but until I get faster that's all I've got. >> One GPL league I'm in ran 3 races last weekend at Watkins >> Glen on successive nights. Every one of those had a T1 pileup. > >That's simply pittyfull. Agreed. Fortunately I was *ahead* of the chaos in the 2nd and 3rd race.

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> >> I've been in league races at Solitude - *every* race (maybe >> 10-12 total) featured a T1 crash. From my point of view, >> you can't run a race at Solitude without a T1 wreck... :-) > >That's strange as T2 is by far the more dangerous turn at the start. Most of >the events I've been in got through both, but if it went wrong it was at T2.

Really? Hmm...maybe you should have a talk with these guys.<g>

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> >> I just don't get it - it doesn't seem that hard to ME, but >> better drivers than I am can't seem to avoid crashing. >> What's up with THAT? > >You're right, it's not that hard. It's fairly easy in fact. Also I'd >hestitate to call drivers who routinely get involved in this kind of >incident better than you. Faster on their own, perhaps more confident, but >certainly not better.

In races with low damage, or shift-r enabled, I routinely get beaten by guys who crash, shift-r, then keep going. Meanwhile I've never even put a wheel off. Giving up 2-3 seconds per lap means they can crash every 5 laps and STILL be ahead. Eldred -- "A voice from the crowd: Right, everyone out of my garden. I've had enough of this!" Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank -2.4 N2k3 rank ? Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.