RalliSport Challenge 2 videos and what counts as a sim
A poster enthused about Xbox videos of RalliSport Challenge 2 and quoted developer claims of more realistic physics, while redTed and others dismissed it as arcade eye candy. The thread turned into a debate over whether console games belong in the newsgroup and what qualifies as a simulation, with Haqsau arguing the group covers anything simulating driving and Jan Verschueren insisting it must believably portray real racing.
Automated summary.
You guys seen these?
http://www3.telus.net/gill7486/RallisportChallenge_X03Trailer_1.5Mbps.wmv
[link lost in import]
>"shpankey" <[email hidden]> wrote
> You guys seen these?
Those roads are wider then Kuala Lumpur's F1 track! That ain't rally
racing.
--
-- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard>
-- http://ymenard.cjb.net/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...
"ymenard" said:
> Those roads are wider then Kuala Lumpur's F1 track! That ain't rally
> racing.
For the millionth time - there's no such thing as rally racing!
Either you're racing or you're rallying.
ed_
(Bruce K. wannabe)
>"Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote
> For the millionth time - there's no such thing as rally racing!
> Either you're racing or you're rallying.
pffffffftttttt!!!!
(there's "racing" in those videos)
;)
--
-- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard>
-- http://ymenard.cjb.net/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...
"shpankey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:9D1bb.5208$[email hidden]...
>
> You guys seen these?
Ooh..Ahhh..hey look, it's more Microsoft eye candy.
Go on then, point out the immense differences between the first Rallisport
and this effort.
LOL!! :D
"Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:3f6cb126$[email hidden]...
>
> ed_
> (Bruce K. wannabe)
>
>
Considering I haven't played it, what makes you think I would let you make
me out a liar? Here's what the devs are saying however (although I cannot
verify anything). Be a cynical European all you want however, no skin off my
back. :)
quote:
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The physics engine has been rewritten from scratch to even better simulate
the cars in a realistic way. Each aspect of a rally car's function and
behavior is now simulated completely correctly. Combine this with an
advanced underlying system that provides impulses for things such as uneven
material, patches of water and holes in the road, and the experience becomes
total. The settings potential on the cars has also been expanded to satisfy
the hardest core of rally enthusiasts.
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quote:
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The designers didn't want anything in the game that wasn't viewed as real.
Since we wanted puddles, DICE wasn't going to put in puddles unless you
could splash through them and they would slow the car down. It's all about
realism (or as real as is practical in a video game).
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quote:
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BTW, that trailer is all realtime gameplay footage from a recent build (same
build that will be demoed at X03 today and tomorrow).
As for the gameplay itself, everything has been improved. The reason why we
didn't crank out a sequel in like 6 months with just tweaked content is
because we wanted to integrate a great Live experience and revamp the single
player experience to add depth and give people more of what they want.
Remember all those questions and feature requests I collected last year?
Heh...just wait.
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quote:
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Another important piece of news is that RalliSport Challenge 2 will be able
to be played on-line via Xbox Live support. Buckle the bodywork of your
friend's cars, compete and try to beat each other's times, and enter the
global high-score charts. Who in fact is really the world's best rally
driver...?
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quote:
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we've changed how we handle off-track excursions a bit...it's actually quite
clever and will hopefully please most people. While it still is in
development and may change, the plan is to keep the reset (what I like to
call the "hand of god") but push it out further and make it "less desirable"
to cut corners. Your first thought is probably big rocks and stuff to
prevent shortcuts, and while that's true in many spots, there are a couple
of other tricks we're doing which should prove quite interesting. We will
not allow obvious shortcuts...that's simply not fair. But mistakes and
off-track crashes should be allowed. Obviously there's a fine balance there
so not everyone will think the new system is fair, but it should be better
than what was in RSC1. It's something you have to try because as far as I
know, it hasn't been done in any other racing games.
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quote:
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Long courses - of course...like I said, we listened to what you guys wanted
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quote:
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You know, right after we released RSC1, we thought about how much more we
could squeeze out of the Xbox. I mean, RSC1 is still used as a benchmark for
Xbox graphics when reviewers compare games (and that's even against games at
30fps). But those DICE guys have worked some miracles...they rewrote some
systems to make them much more efficient so they could squeeze even more out
of the processors so all those areas some of us thought might be the max we
could get have all improved. Better particles, better lighting, more
objects, more textures, more polygons, quite complex car damage, better
sound, better AI, etc. All those CPU and GPU sucking systems have been
improved.
I hope that gives you a glimpse into how to make a whole new game rather
than just a sequel with more content using the exact same engine. I believe
every single system in RSC2 was either heavily overhauled or completely
rewritten so it was like building a whole new game. This is why a full
production cycle was needed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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quote:
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As for Live and System Link, the final numbers are still to be decided but
we've got some neat tricks that'll let us support more players than you
might expect. The tough thing is how do you cram more than one or two cars
onto a narrow rally course? Sure, rallycross and ice racing we can easily
get 4 or more cars on there, but the rally and hillclimb courses are going
to be tough. But we have some great ideas. And the new rally mode, crossover
(or super special stages) is really best designed for 2 cars so we won't
support more than 2 on those tracks. It just makes for better racing!
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quote:
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Sound effects are something we're working on right now as a matter of fact.
We know that without driving the car itself and feeling what's happening in
your hands and in your seat, you rely on controller vibration, sounds and
visuals to know what's happening, so we're doing our best to give all those
cues you'd normally get in real life in other ways.
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quote:
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Yeah, some of you complained that the RSC1 roads were too flat. No more.
If ANY of you complain that RSC2 is too bumpy, too muddy, tracks too long or
too narrow, windshield too dirty, car too broken, night too dark to see, or
AI too tough, you only have yourselves to blame :-) Go back to playing Sega
Rally 2 ;-)
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"redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:bkij02$277pu$[email hidden]...
Quoted text (11 lines)
> > "shpankey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:9D1bb.5208$[email hidden]... > > > > You guys seen these? > > Ooh..Ahhh..hey look, it's more Microsoft eye candy. > Go on then, point out the immense differences between the first Rallisport > and this effort. > >Thanks for that information, great stuff.
Will we ever see a PC version of this?? I admit, those vids look GREAT!!
I just hope the PC port will be better than RalliSport 1. I played that for
1 day and then gave up...
Mike
http://mikebeauchamp.com
"shpankey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:9D1bb.5208$[email hidden]...
>
> You guys seen these?
>
>http://www.gon.nu/annons/RalliSport_Challenge_2_Xbox_movie_without_sound.wmv
>
> http://www3.telus.net/gill7486/RallisportChallenge_X03Trailer_1.5Mbps.wmv
>
>
nothing comes close to this, and this is the old GT3 graphics engine btw..
wait for the GT4 to show..
http://membres.lycos.fr/gt4vids5/gt4_z3.mpg
thats grand canyon rallytrack :)
Zer0 did those btw.
"shpankey" <[email hidden]> skrev i meddelandet
news:9D1bb.5208$[email hidden]...
>
> You guys seen these?
>
>http://www.gon.nu/annons/RalliSport_Challenge_2_Xbox_movie_without_sound.wmv
>
> http://www3.telus.net/gill7486/RallisportChallenge_X03Trailer_1.5Mbps.wmv
>
>
This new video blows that away! Check it out! Brand new video of ingame
gameplay of a guy on a snow track. Has to be seen to be believed. I am in
just SHOCK! So incredible. Damage model best ever, graphics best ever...
makes your video look like Super Nintendo.
http://www.xboxlive-fr.com/download/video/x03_rc2.avi
http://www.gon.nu/annons/RalliSport_Challenge_2_Xbox_movie_without_sound.wmv
> >
> >http://www3.telus.net/gill7486/RallisportChallenge_X03Trailer_1.5Mbps.wmv
> >
> >
>
>
Quoted text (16 lines)
> nothing comes close to this, and this is the old GT3 graphics engine btw.. > wait for the GT4 to show.. > > http://membres.lycos.fr/gt4vids5/gt4_z3.mpg > > thats grand canyon rallytrack :) > > Zer0 did those btw. > > "shpankey" <[email hidden]> skrev i meddelandet > news:9D1bb.5208$[email hidden]... > > > > You guys seen these? > > > > >
"shpankey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:zxkbb.10152$[email hidden]...
> This new video blows that away! Check it out! Brand new video of ingame
> gameplay of a guy on a snow track. Has to be seen to be believed. I am in
> just SHOCK! So incredible. Damage model best ever, graphics best ever...
> makes your video look like Super Nintendo.
You're starting to sound like a fanboy. Or perhaps someone with ulterior
motives.
Either way, I still fail to see what is exciting you quite so much.
Rallisport was a crap arcade game that was ported over to PC on 3 disks no
less.
It looked great but played like a bag of spanners.
Nah, just using hyperbole. :)
I am excited because of the quotes I posted, which talks about how much they
changed the physics and are going full out sim this time, and also the
graphics. I will play the game on the Xbox, so I don't care how many disks
it comes on the PC with. I prefer to play this on Xbox Live.
"redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:bkkn0f$2qofc$[email hidden]...
>
> "shpankey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:zxkbb.10152$[email hidden]...
> > This new video blows that away! Check it out! Brand new video of ingame
> > gameplay of a guy on a snow track. Has to be seen to be believed. I amin
no
> less.
> It looked great but played like a bag of spanners.
>
>
Quoted text (7 lines)
> > just SHOCK! So incredible. Damage model best ever, graphics best ever... > > makes your video look like Super Nintendo. > > You're starting to sound like a fanboy. Or perhaps someone with ulterior > motives. > Either way, I still fail to see what is exciting you quite so much. > Rallisport was a crap arcade game that was ported over to PC on 3 disksive seen it, and frankly, only the lighteffects looks to be better then
rallisport challenge 1?
or?
"shpankey" <[email hidden]> skrev i meddelandet
news:zxkbb.10152$[email hidden]...
btw..
http://www.gon.nu/annons/RalliSport_Challenge_2_Xbox_movie_without_sound.wmv
Quoted text (9 lines)
> This new video blows that away! Check it out! Brand new video of ingame > gameplay of a guy on a snow track. Has to be seen to be believed. I am in > just SHOCK! So incredible. Damage model best ever, graphics best ever... > makes your video look like Super Nintendo. > > http://www.xboxlive-fr.com/download/video/x03_rc2.avi > > > > nothing comes close to this, and this is the old GT3 graphics engineQuoted text (16 lines)
> > wait for the GT4 to show.. > > > > http://membres.lycos.fr/gt4vids5/gt4_z3.mpg > > > > thats grand canyon rallytrack :) > > > > Zer0 did those btw. > > > > "shpankey" <[email hidden]> skrev i meddelandet > > news:9D1bb.5208$[email hidden]... > > > > > > You guys seen these? > > > > > > > > >Quoted text (9 lines)
> > > > > > > http://www3.telus.net/gill7486/RallisportChallenge_X03Trailer_1.5Mbps.wmv > > > > > > > > > > > >
"Andreas Nystr�m" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:golbb.25458$[email hidden]...
> ive seen it, and frankly, only the lighteffects looks to be better then
> rallisport challenge 1?
lol, uhm... no.
"shpankey" wrote:
> I am excited because of the quotes I posted, which talks about how muchthey
> changed the physics and are going full out sim this time, and also the
> graphics. I will play the game on the Xbox, so I don't care how many disks
> it comes on the PC with. I prefer to play this on Xbox Live.
The video doesn't sell any suggestion of an enhanced physics model very
well. Still goes wiggle wiggle down the road just like pole position...
Which I am sure is down to the controller it is designed for, but will any
PC port be any different?
what is so much better then?
carmodells?.. hardly can see that on that video
track has some more details, otherwise, it looks about the same to me?
have only played RSC on pc btw
"shpankey" <[email hidden]> skrev i meddelandet
news:lqlbb.10867$[email hidden]...
Quoted text (9 lines)
> > "Andreas Nystr�m" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:golbb.25458$[email hidden]... > > ive seen it, and frankly, only the lighteffects looks to be better then > > rallisport challenge 1? > > lol, uhm... no. > >
"shpankey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:Ijlbb.10781$[email hidden]...
> Nah, just using hyperbole. :)
>
> I am excited because of the quotes I posted, which talks about how muchthey
> changed the physics and are going full out sim this time, and also the
> graphics. I will play the game on the Xbox, so I don't care how many disks
> it comes on the PC with. I prefer to play this on Xbox Live.
Ah.. I see the problem. You're lost. You should be over at
alt.games.video.xbox with all the other hyperactive youngsters.
Everything.
I ask you the same thing about GT4.
"Andreas Nystr�m" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:7Mlbb.25466$[email hidden]...
then
Quoted text (13 lines)
> what is so much better then? > carmodells?.. hardly can see that on that video > track has some more details, otherwise, it looks about the same to me? > > have only played RSC on pc btw > > > "shpankey" <[email hidden]> skrev i meddelandet > news:lqlbb.10867$[email hidden]... > > > > "Andreas Nystr�m" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:golbb.25458$[email hidden]... > > > ive seen it, and frankly, only the lighteffects looks to be betterQuoted text (7 lines)
> > > rallisport challenge 1? > > > > lol, uhm... no. > > > > > >I'm 32, and I think you're the one acting like a child. Why so sensitive
anyways? You hate the Xbox I take it? Sheesh.
"redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:bkkqr3$2p9kg$[email hidden]...
disks
> > it comes on the PC with. I prefer to play this on Xbox Live.
>
> Ah.. I see the problem. You're lost. You should be over at
> alt.games.video.xbox with all the other hyperactive youngsters.
>
>
Quoted text (9 lines)
> > "shpankey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Ijlbb.10781$[email hidden]... > > Nah, just using hyperbole. :) > > > > I am excited because of the quotes I posted, which talks about how much > they > > changed the physics and are going full out sim this time, and also the > > graphics. I will play the game on the Xbox, so I don't care how manyuh gt4?
wasnt this about rsc2
"shpankey" <[email hidden]> skrev i meddelandet
news:Jrmbb.11658$[email hidden]...
Quoted text (30 lines)
> Everything. > > I ask you the same thing about GT4. > > > "Andreas Nystr�m" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:7Mlbb.25466$[email hidden]... > > what is so much better then? > > carmodells?.. hardly can see that on that video > > track has some more details, otherwise, it looks about the same to me? > > > > have only played RSC on pc btw > > > > > > "shpankey" <[email hidden]> skrev i meddelandet > > news:lqlbb.10867$[email hidden]... > > > > > > "Andreas Nystr�m" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:golbb.25458$[email hidden]... > > > > ive seen it, and frankly, only the lighteffects looks to be better > then > > > > rallisport challenge 1? > > > > > > lol, uhm... no. > > > > > > > > > > > >anyway i guess we will see later, game looks good, but the handling seems
odd.
"shpankey" <[email hidden]> skrev i meddelandet
news:Jrmbb.11658$[email hidden]...
Quoted text (30 lines)
> Everything. > > I ask you the same thing about GT4. > > > "Andreas Nystr�m" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:7Mlbb.25466$[email hidden]... > > what is so much better then? > > carmodells?.. hardly can see that on that video > > track has some more details, otherwise, it looks about the same to me? > > > > have only played RSC on pc btw > > > > > > "shpankey" <[email hidden]> skrev i meddelandet > > news:lqlbb.10867$[email hidden]... > > > > > > "Andreas Nystr�m" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:golbb.25458$[email hidden]... > > > > ive seen it, and frankly, only the lighteffects looks to be better > then > > > > rallisport challenge 1? > > > > > > lol, uhm... no. > > > > > > > > > > > >
"shpankey" said:
> I am excited because of the quotes I posted, which talks about how muchthey
> changed the physics and are going full out sim this time... snip!
So there'll be an incar-view this time then?
--
ed_
http://rascar.racesimcentral.com
-----------------------------------------------
$10 says Petter Solberg wins the 2003 WRC
"shpankey" said:
So there'll be an incar-view this time then?
--
ed_
http://membres.tripod.fr/auto35/
-----------------------------------------------
$10 says Petter Solberg wins the 2003 WRC
"shpankey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:psmbb.11665$[email hidden]...
> I'm 32, and I think you're the one acting like a child. Why so sensitive
> anyways? You hate the Xbox I take it? Sheesh.
I like X-Box. Great games and graphics. But Rallisport wasn't one of 'em,
imo. But you say you don't care about the PC version, so what are you doing
here apart from promoting an X-Box game like you're Bill Gates' love child
or something. 32 makes you about the right age come to think of it ;)
Yes, it shows it in one of the video I linked to I think.
"Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:3f6e0074$[email hidden]...
Quoted text (16 lines)
> > "shpankey" said: > > I am excited because of the quotes I posted, which talks about how much > they > > changed the physics and are going full out sim this time... snip! > > So there'll be an incar-view this time then? > > > -- > ed_ > http://rascar.racesimcentral.com > ----------------------------------------------- > $10 says Petter Solberg wins the 2003 WRC > >
"Andreas Nystr�m" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:Z7nbb.25488$[email hidden]...
> uh gt4?
>
> wasnt this about rsc2
lol, you don't remember posting this?...
"nothing comes close to this, and this is the old GT3 graphics engine btw..
wait for the GT4 to show..
http://membres.lycos.fr/gt4vids5/gt4_z3.mpg
thats grand canyon rallytrack :)
Zer0 did those btw."
I don't see the word "computer" anywhere in the title of this newsgroup.
"redTed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:bkkvm9$2sp0i$[email hidden]...
>
>
> But you say you don't care about the PC version, so what are you doinghere...
>
>
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 19:45:50 -0400, "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>I don't see the word "computer" anywhere in the title of this newsgroup.
>Yep. Most people seem to overlook that. Another thing they overlook is that
there's no "racing" in the title either, but rather just "autos"...
--
__________ ____---____ Marco Antonio Checa Funcke
\_________D /-/---_----' Santiago de Surco, Lima, Peru
_H__/_/ http://machf.tripod.com
'-_____|(
remove the "no_me_j." and "sons.of." parts before replying
"Haqsau" wrote...
> I don't see the word "computer" anywhere in the title of
> this newsgroup.
True... then again, has there ever been anything resembling an "automobile
simulator" on a console?
Jan.
=---
"machf" wrote...
> > <snip>
> Yep. Most people seem to overlook that. Another thing they
> overlook is that there's no "racing" in the title either,
> but rather just "autos"...
While you cleverly overlook the word simulation... <g>
Jan.
=---
Depends on your definition of simulator. My personal definition of
simulator doesn't include anything that operates in real time, so basically
practically everything that gets posted here is OT. OTOH, if you are
willing to accept the idea that a game can be a simulation, then I don't
think it's right to rule out consoles.
"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:R1tbb.33027$[email hidden]...
Quoted text (8 lines)
> > True... then again, has there ever been anything resembling an "automobile > simulator" on a console? > > Jan. > =--- > >"Haqsau" wrote...
> Depends on your definition of simulator. My personal
> definition of simulator doesn't include anything that
> operates in real time, so basically practically
> everything that gets posted here is OT.
Oooh-er!! -Snooty!
FYI, whatever the original intent of this newsgroup, it was overtaken by
real time approximations of racecar simulations nearly 10 years ago.
> OTOH, if you are willing to accept the idea that a game
> can be a simulation, then I don't think it's right to
> rule out consoles.
I don't rule them out, it's just I haven't seen anything coming even close
to what I consider to be a racing sim in PC terms (and I'm not even
considering the online multiplayer aspect in this respect) being released on
a console. Even with dedicated, force feedback controllers they fail to rise
above the most basic of arcade levels. Arcade machines like Daytona and
Indy500 do a better job of being a simulation and so do their PC conversions
over any console port, IMNSHO.
Jan.
=---
Well what is a sim then? If it is a game that tries to simulate reality,
then I still have to throw out a lot of the stuff that gets talked about
here. What do you call a racing game that does not simulate weather, or tire
wear, or brake heat, or brake wear, or aerodynamic lift? Doesn't sound like
much of a sim to me. Well most people here call it GPL. I realize there
are excuses for all those things but that's not the point. I even will
confess to liking GPL but that's still not the point. The point is people
here seem to have a bit of prejudice for certain games and against others,
despite the fact that, judged on pure "siminess" (there's a word for Frank),
the games they favor aren't necessarily any better than some console games.
Let's be honest here, this group should really be called
rec.computers.games.multiplayer-racing, because that seems to be the basis
for most people's prejudices here, that's all that most of the regulars want
to talk about, and anybody who dares to talk about a "car sim" that doesn't
fit into that mold gets a lot of flak. I have had a great deal of fun with
games like Rallisport Challenge, Project Gotham, and Pro Race Driver but
hey, they don't support 40 player games on a PC so according to this group
they must be shit. OTOH a game like Live for Speed, which I find very
arcadey, gets worshipped around here because it has good multiplayer.
Sorry, makes no sense to me.
I'm glad the original poster of this thread took the time to post the links
and quotes that he did. I for one found it very interesting, even if nobody
else did.
"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:Bvtbb.33046$[email hidden]...
>
> I don't rule them out, it's just I haven't seen anything coming even close
> to what I consider to be a racing sim in PC terms (and I'm not even
> considering the online multiplayer aspect in this respect) being releasedon
> a console. Even with dedicated, force feedback controllers they fail torise
> above the most basic of arcade levels. Arcade machines like Daytona and
> Indy500 do a better job of being a simulation and so do their PCconversions
> over any console port, IMNSHO.
>
> Jan.
> =---
>
>
"Haqsau" wrote...
> Well what is a sim then? If it is a game that tries
> to simulate reality, then I still have to throw out
> a lot of the stuff that gets talked about here.
Anything that, within limits, believably portrays a RL racing series.
> What do you call a racing game that does not simulate
> weather, or tire wear, or brake heat, or brake wear,
> or aerodynamic lift? Doesn't sound like much of a
> sim to me. Well most people here call it GPL.
Like I said, there are limits. While I would like for racing sims to have
more detail/complexity like that, it's not always technically possible or
even commercially viable. Also, and this is often overlooked, it has to
appeal to less anal simmers or I'd have almost nobody to race.
Ehm yes... quite. Like I said before, I think this prejudice is largely in
the eye of the beholder. The simple truth is games which are considered
borderline arcade or arcade are classified as such because they have arcade
features like having to earn cars and tracks (this can be forgiven) or
canned physics / eye candy damage only (which can start to grate after a
while).
To somewhat get back on topic you're not going to sit there and tell me GT4
is a sim, that a floating bumper view is a "realistic" way to drive a car,
or that a couple of sticks and some plastic netting can stop a Subaru WRC
from going down a cliff. That's just one of the horrible arcade aspects of
the GT series, those "poing"-walls. Real walls go "thud". <g>
They don't have many "sim" aspects either. To be fair to console games,
though, I did forget about 355 Challenge. That was pretty good and,
amazingly, well received by the console audience as well.
> OTOH a game like Live for Speed, which I find very arcadey,
> gets worshipped around here because it has good multiplayer.
> Sorry, makes no sense to me.
Ok, having to earn the cars and no damage (for the moment) are arade like
features, but other than that it's pretty good (i.e. the driving is
believable), IMO.
> I'm glad the original poster of this thread took the time to
> post the links and quotes that he did. I for one found it
> very interesting, even if nobody else did.
Sorry for being a cynic, but I've been listening to developers of borderline
arcade racing game talking about how the physics in their next game would be
so much more sophisticated, where, in fact, they'd get dumbed down further
in every incarnation, for nearly a decade now. I'll believe it when I see
it.
Jan.
=---
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> I realize there are excuses for all those things but > that's not the point. I even will confess to liking > GPL but that's still not the point. The point is > people here seem to have a bit of prejudice for > certain games and against others, despite the fact > that, judged on pure "siminess" (there's a word for > Frank), the games they favor aren't necessarily any > better than some console games.Quoted text (10 lines)
> Let's be honest here, this group should really be called > rec.computers.games.multiplayer-racing, because that seems > to be the basis for most people's prejudices here, that's > all that most of the regulars want to talk about, and > anybody who dares to talk about a "car sim" that doesn't > fit into that mold gets a lot of flak. I have had a great > deal of fun with games like Rallisport Challenge, Project > Gotham, and Pro Race Driver but hey, they don't support 40 > player games on a PC so according to this group they must > be shit.Well said Haqsau!
"Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> I'm glad the original poster of this thread took the time to post thelinks
> and quotes that he did. I for one found it very interesting, even ifnobody
close
> > to what I consider to be a racing sim in PC terms (and I'm not even
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> else did. > > > "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Bvtbb.33046$[email hidden]... > > > > I don't rule them out, it's just I haven't seen anything coming evenI think you may have missed my point. My point is that this newsgroup is
ostensibly about anything that simulates driving a car. It is not about
computers versus consoles or multiplayer versus single player, and it is
also not about anyone's arbitrary definition of what constitutes a sim.
That arbitrariness is very much a two-edged sword. We could make the
definition very narrow technically and exclude all games, or we could make
it so broad that it even includes things like Interstate 76.
It's completely arbitrary and therefore it is not defensible for someone to
say that we can't talk about game X here because it's not simmy enough. If
it simulates (in the ordinary English sense of the word, not the technical
sense) driving a car, it's a valid topic of discussion.
Again, if you want to use sim in the technical sense rather than the
ordinary English sense then none of these games are truly sims. But that's
not the way gamers ordinarily use the word sim. A sim is something that
appears to simulate reality, pure and simple. You can't get into a nuts and
bolts definition of it without invalidating nearly every game out there.
Every generation of sims is more accurate than the previous, does that mean
that all the older games are no longer sims? Again look at GPL. At the
time it was considered the greatest sim ever, now even Kaemmer has said he
doesn't like to play it anymore because he can't stand the tire model. Does
that mean it's no longer a sim? If so then there are a whole lot of OT
posts in this group.
I just do not believe it is valid to get into technical arguments about what
is a sim or what is not a sim as long as we are talking about games that
were designed exclusively for their entertainment value. The definition of
sim is arbitrary, and it's a moving target, so excluding some games from
discussion and including others on that basis is just silly.
People who aren't interested in console games should simply ignore the posts
about console games. What's so hard about that? Can you imagine someone at
a trade show or exhibition walking into a room where a presentation was
being given, interrupting the conversation and telling people "I'm sorry,
your discussion is not on topic for this room, you will have to move
somewhere else." People who don't like RSC should just ignore the posts and
move on, leave the discussion to people who are interested in it.
"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:6UAbb.33595$[email hidden]...
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> "Haqsau" wrote... > > Like I said, there are limits. While I would like for racing sims to have > more detail/complexity like that, it's not always technically possible or > even commercially viable. Also, and this is often overlooked, it has to > appeal to less anal simmers or I'd have almost nobody to race. > >"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<b3tbb.33028$[email hidden]>...
And you *all* seem to keep overlooking the word "rec" ;)...
Kendt
PS - that's "recreation" for any non-English speakers out there - as
in something you do for fun and enjoyment.
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> "machf" wrote... > > > <snip> > > Yep. Most people seem to overlook that. Another thing they > > overlook is that there's no "racing" in the title either, > > but rather just "autos"... > > While you cleverly overlook the word simulation... <g> > > Jan. > =---"Kendt Eklund" wrote:
Which usually gets interpreted as wreck...
