RASF1 Aids

Well guys I am very disenchanted now. I just spent roughly 30 laps at Malaysia playing around with stability control and in that time took 2 full seconds off of my PB. Over 100 laps of practice prior to the race and the best I could do was a mid 1:38, now I can run in the 1:36's, and all it took was full stability control, full TC, and auto shifting, all of which are legal in RASF1. Now granted a mid 1:36 is not an impossible time without aids, but I suspect it's not particularly easy either. What was particularly bothersome is that full stability control allowed me to brake way too late into the turns and still make them without spinning. It affects braking almost like ABS. I could even continue to downshift into mid corner and not spin. It also allowed me to use liberal amounts of curb and grass without loss of speed or control - as long as I didn't ground the chassis I was in full control. If I really screwed up badly I would still spin, but the margin for error it gives you is totally unrealistic. These tools are a great way to learn the line perhaps, but I am starting to question whether we should allow them in the race. I'm tempted to say that TC, clutch help, and autoshift should be the only allowed aids, but then again maybe if everybody took advantage of all the aids we would have a cleaner race with more finishers. It's a tough call - realism or fun? Opinions?

Agree, I vote to get rid of stability control. The original argument for it was that it would not make people any faster... this is not the case. Spud. "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Well guys I am very disenchanted now. I just spent roughly 30 laps at > Malaysia playing around with stability control and in that time took 2full > seconds off of my PB. Over 100 laps of practice prior to the race and the > best I could do was a mid 1:38, now I can run in the 1:36's, and all ittook

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> was full stability control, full TC, and auto shifting, all of which are > legal in RASF1. Now granted a mid 1:36 is not an impossible time without > aids, but I suspect it's not particularly easy either. What was > particularly bothersome is that full stability control allowed me to brake > way too late into the turns and still make them without spinning. It > affects braking almost like ABS. I could even continue to downshift into > mid corner and not spin. It also allowed me to use liberal amounts of

curb > and grass without loss of speed or control - as long as I didn't groundthe > chassis I was in full control. If I really screwed up badly I would still > spin, but the margin for error it gives you is totally unrealistic. These > tools are a great way to learn the line perhaps, but I am starting to > question whether we should allow them in the race. I'm tempted to saythat > TC, clutch help, and autoshift should be the only allowed aids, but then > again maybe if everybody took advantage of all the aids we would have a > cleaner race with more finishers. It's a tough call - realism or fun? > Opinions? > >

"Spudster" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8lObb.1021346$[email hidden]... > Agree, I vote to get rid of stability control. The original argument forit > was that it would not make people any faster... this is not the case. > Spud. So use it yourself and go faster. ;o) Elrikk

In article <[email hidden]>, "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Well guys I am very disenchanted now. I just spent roughly 30 laps at >Malaysia playing around with stability control and in that time took 2 full >seconds off of my PB. Over 100 laps of practice prior to the race and the >best I could do was a mid 1:38, now I can run in the 1:36's, and all it took >was full stability control, full TC, and auto shifting, all of which are >legal in RASF1. Now granted a mid 1:36 is not an impossible time without >aids, but I suspect it's not particularly easy either. What was >particularly bothersome is that full stability control allowed me to brake >way too late into the turns and still make them without spinning. It >affects braking almost like ABS. I could even continue to downshift into >mid corner and not spin. It also allowed me to use liberal amounts of curb >and grass without loss of speed or control - as long as I didn't ground the >chassis I was in full control. If I really screwed up badly I would still >spin, but the margin for error it gives you is totally unrealistic. These >tools are a great way to learn the line perhaps, but I am starting to >question whether we should allow them in the race. I'm tempted to say that >TC, clutch help, and autoshift should be the only allowed aids, but then >again maybe if everybody took advantage of all the aids we would have a >cleaner race with more finishers. It's a tough call - realism or fun? >Opinions?

I just tried to run some laps without stability control. I had previously run low SC and low TC, and clutch. Yesterday in the race(or in qual) I ran a 1:51. Tonight, I couldn't put two laps together without spinning, and could only get to a 1:54. And I was reminded why I started using SC in the first place - Silverstone. I couldn't complete a lap without spinning in the sharp lefthander near the end of the lap. At Malaysia, I have the same problem with T2. Out of those 10 laps I ran, I probably spun there 7 or 8 times(more counting outlaps). So, it appears I'm the only one who uses(and needs) SC. If you guys want to run races without it, then fine. But I won't race - I'm just not good enough... :-( Eldred -- .sig file is at the cleaners... Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank -2.4 N2k3 rank ? Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <8lObb.1021346$[email hidden]>, "Spudster" <[email hidden]> writes: >Agree, I vote to get rid of stability control. The original argument for it >was that it would not make people any faster... this is not the case. No, the original argument was that it would keep people from crashing every 3 turns... Eldred -- .sig file is at the cleaners... Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank -2.4 N2k3 rank ? Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Haqsau wrote:

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> > Well guys I am very disenchanted now. I just spent roughly 30 laps at > Malaysia playing around with stability control and in that time took 2 full > seconds off of my PB. Over 100 laps of practice prior to the race and the > best I could do was a mid 1:38, now I can run in the 1:36's, and all it took > was full stability control, full TC, and auto shifting, all of which are > legal in RASF1.

Hi Haqsqu: I'm sorry. You guys almost got through the season without any problems. Who's idea was it to let me into RASF1?

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> These > tools are a great way to learn the line perhaps, but I am starting to > question whether we should allow them in the race. I'm tempted to say that > TC, clutch help, and autoshift should be the only allowed aids, but then > again maybe if everybody took advantage of all the aids we would have a > cleaner race with more finishers. It's a tough call - realism or fun? > Opinions?

Or choice C, exactly what our gracious host wants. Well, not so mutch what he wants. More like what we can convince him he wants. If it isn't enforceable, I believe it should be legal. I'm not using it. I'd just like to know who else isn't. It will be class racing. Larry

EldredP wrote:

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> > In article <[email hidden]>, "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> > writes: > > >Well guys I am very disenchanted now. I just spent roughly 30 laps at > >Malaysia playing around with stability control and in that time took 2 full > >seconds off of my PB. Over 100 laps of practice prior to the race and the > >best I could do was a mid 1:38, now I can run in the 1:36's, and all it took > >was full stability control, full TC, and auto shifting, all of which are > >legal in RASF1. Now granted a mid 1:36 is not an impossible time without > >aids, but I suspect it's not particularly easy either. What was > >particularly bothersome is that full stability control allowed me to brake > >way too late into the turns and still make them without spinning. It > >affects braking almost like ABS. I could even continue to downshift into > >mid corner and not spin. It also allowed me to use liberal amounts of curb > >and grass without loss of speed or control - as long as I didn't ground the > >chassis I was in full control. If I really screwed up badly I would still > >spin, but the margin for error it gives you is totally unrealistic. These > >tools are a great way to learn the line perhaps, but I am starting to > >question whether we should allow them in the race. I'm tempted to say that > >TC, clutch help, and autoshift should be the only allowed aids, but then > >again maybe if everybody took advantage of all the aids we would have a > >cleaner race with more finishers. It's a tough call - realism or fun? > >Opinions? > > I just tried to run some laps without stability control. I had previously run > low SC and low TC, and clutch. Yesterday in the race(or in qual) I ran a 1:51. > Tonight, I couldn't put two laps together without spinning, and could only > get to a 1:54. And I was reminded why I started using SC in the first place - > Silverstone. I couldn't complete a lap without spinning in the sharp > lefthander near the end of the lap. At Malaysia, I have the same problem with > T2. Out of those 10 laps I ran, I probably spun there 7 or 8 times(more > counting outlaps). > So, it appears I'm the only one who uses(and needs) SC. If you guys want to > run races without it, then fine. But I won't race - I'm just not good > enough... :-( > > Eldred

Hi Eldred: I have no problem with that. You should use what you want. How did that 2:54 feel? In 10 laps? I've done all my driving with minimal assists. In the week before last Sunday's race I've probably done 30 laps at Malaysia. Once I got a 1:49 and once I got a 1:47. I saw it, but my "official" record reports a 1:49 as my best. I qualified at 1:52 or 1:53, and you qualified 2 or 3 seconds behind me. After the race I hadn't reduced my PB. After 10 laps you cut a 2:54! No experience with stability assistance turned off and in 10 laps you were within a second or two of my qualifying time. That's faster than your qualifying time in the race. Look, I won't lie to you. That time sucks. But it's good enough to race with me. Consistency, that's everyone's challenge on every lap of every race. Will you have a chance to practice this week? Because that's what you need to become consistent. My advice is to go to internet multiplayer, host a race at Indy, or your favorite track, with a name that has the word "Beginner" in it and stability assistance disallowed. Start cutting some laps. It took me more than 10 laps to learn how to drive this beast at the low level of performance I have right now. Why the Internet? Because it's cool to have other real drivers. They will want to race, so practice until someone comes in and cuts times like your's, and then have a little race. I recommend sprints, damage off because we're looking to log some laps. Here is a tip. Turn 1 at Malaysia, it's nice to gently turn into the apex. Don't even think about that with no stability assistance. It's a white knuckle, max brake, wheels dead forward slide toward the left side of the right turn, and when your are slow enough release the bakes and then turn into the apex. Accelerating out of turns is almost as demanding. You might be able to very gently roll the throttle on as you are straightening out your wheel. That's how I do it, perhaps some good driver can tell us both how to do it fast Learn to follow the line, as laid out on the road surface. It's hard, it unforgiving, and it's a lot of fun. It takes more than 10 laps to learn. And you've already beaten your qualifying time at Malaysia. Larry

"Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Well guys I am very disenchanted now. I just spent roughly 30 laps at > Malaysia playing around with stability control and in that time took 2full > seconds off of my PB.[snip] It's a tough call - realism or fun? > Opinions? > I'm happy to let people race as they like as long as it's clean. If I ever put a good run together and see myself getting beaten by someone with aids maybe I'll reconsider ;) Until then, keeping them (and me) on track is the main thing I think in order to have some fun. Regards

In article <[email hidden]>, Larry Lindstrom <[email hidden]> writes:

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> After 10 laps you cut a 2:54! No experience with >stability assistance turned off and in 10 laps you >were within a second or two of my qualifying time. >That's faster than your qualifying time in the race. > > Look, I won't lie to you. That time sucks. But >it's good enough to race with me. >

Hey, any time a driver is 20+ seconds off the front row, that's not good. :-) > Consistency, that's everyone's challenge on every >lap of every race. Will you have a chance to practice >this week? Because that's what you need to become >consistent. No, I don't have a lot of time to practice. I work full-time, and I'm back in school. I actually should be studying right NOW... I've dropped out of most of the leagues I was in. We'll see what happens at Indy... Eldred -- .sig file is at the cleaners... Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank -2.4 N2k3 rank ? Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP wrote:

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> > In article <[email hidden]>, Larry Lindstrom > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > After 10 laps you cut a 2:54! No experience with > >stability assistance turned off and in 10 laps you > >were within a second or two of my qualifying time. > >That's faster than your qualifying time in the race. > > > > Look, I won't lie to you. That time sucks. But > >it's good enough to race with me. > > > Hey, any time a driver is 20+ seconds off the front row, that's not good. :-) > > > Consistency, that's everyone's challenge on every > >lap of every race. Will you have a chance to practice > >this week? Because that's what you need to become > >consistent. > > No, I don't have a lot of time to practice. I work full-time, and I'm back in > school. I actually should be studying right NOW... I've dropped out of most > of the leagues I was in. > We'll see what happens at Indy...

Hi Eldred: Forget I said anything. Your GPL experience is dawning on me. I've never finished a lap in GPL. In my defense the only track I've driven more than one lap on is Nurburgring, and the car I've driven on all but 2 of those laps was a Lotus 49, and a commitment of two laps a year doesn't seem to be enough to master this great sim. But I keep going back every now and then. When driving the Lotus, I keep asking "Why did the car do that?". If you can keep one of these on the road, you need no advice from me on any sim racing issue. See you Sunday. If I can get up for the 8:00 AM start. Larry

Larry Lindstrom <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]: > EldredP wrote: >> >> > Consistency, that's everyone's challenge on every >> >lap of every race. Will you have a chance to practice >> >this week? Because that's what you need to become >> >consistent. I have usually run with just low TC and clutch and no other help. ANd that meant I would spin more often than complete a clean lap. At Malaysia in an '02 Ferrari I hit the low 1:40's only a couple of times in my practice sessions. During the race practice with a '01 Renault I was even slower at around 1:46. So I went back tonight and put on full TC and Full stability and ran 4 more laps at Malaysia. Many folks have said their times plummeted...well I didn't break my own lap pb, but I did put 4 laps all within the same second. THAT is something I never do. So for a spud like me, the Stability aid doesn't make me faster, it just keeps me from being so wildly inconsistant. While any one lap with those aids on wasn't my fastest, taken as a group they were way better than any 4 laps I had during a week's practice at Sepang. btw..I'm using my Malay setup at Indy and topping out at 193mph...what are YOUR top speeds???

Dave Henrie wrote:

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> > Larry Lindstrom <[email hidden]> wrote in > news:[email hidden]: > > > EldredP wrote: > >> > >> > Consistency, that's everyone's challenge on every > >> >lap of every race. Will you have a chance to practice > >> >this week? Because that's what you need to become > >> >consistent. > > I have usually run with just low TC and clutch and no other help. ANd > that meant I would spin more often than complete a clean lap. At Malaysia > in an '02 Ferrari I hit the low 1:40's only a couple of times in my > practice sessions. During the race practice with a '01 Renault I was even > slower at around 1:46.

What is the impact of selecting a second tier car? I never learned Malaysia. I feel I could have knocked a couple of seconds off my best of 1:47. That left sweeper where Eldred had his problem is an example of a section that I started taking in 3rd and finished taking in 5th for my better laps. I don't know what my limits on that curve might be. But in the race, I got cautious. If I'd had Eldred in the race I'd probably have leaned into that one a little more.

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> So I went back tonight and put on full TC and Full stability and ran 4 > more laps at Malaysia. Many folks have said their times plummeted...well I > didn't break my own lap pb, but I did put 4 laps all within the same > second. THAT is something I never do. So for a spud like me, the > Stability aid doesn't make me faster, it just keeps me from being so wildly > inconsistant. While any one lap with those aids on wasn't my fastest, > taken as a group they were way better than any 4 laps I had during a week's > practice at Sepang.

For me, it would take a while to understand and exploit a change of handling. Is it like a different physics model? Your one second consistency is interesting. With that foundation, I'm thinking that faster times are only a few laps away. I'm sorry you got booted so early. > btw..I'm using my Malay setup at Indy and topping out at 193mph...what are > YOUR top speeds??? Are you asking me or Eldred? I drove Indy when I first got F1C, but I haven't been on it for several weeks, and might not see it until Friday or Saturday. So I can't tell you. I'll probably start with the "TN" indy setup and if that's too twitchy I'll add wing, then adjust gears to get good RPMs on the straights. Then I'll be able to tell you. I've been too busy starting arguments in RASF1, and generally being a pain in the ass, to thank you for guiding me through F1RST to RASF1's chat room. I appreciate your help. Larry

Larry Lindstrom <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]: >> btw..I'm using my Malay setup at Indy and topping out at >> 193mph...what are YOUR top speeds??? > > Are you asking me or Eldred? Everyone and/or anyone...

>Your one second consistency is >interesting. With that foundation, I'm thinking >that faster times are only a few laps away. I can do that in GPL. I can run 30+ laps at some tracks with laptimes within a second of each other. Those are the tracks I know well. I get into trouble when I try something different to go faster. I don't know how to go faster without crashing... Eldred -- .sig file is at the cleaners... Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank -2.4 N2k3 rank ? Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

>> Are you asking me or Eldred? > > Everyone and/or anyone... > I don't know... I'd have to check. -- .sig file is at the cleaners... Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank -2.4 N2k3 rank ? Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Huh? You have not been or done either one. This is all valid discussion and you are welcome here. "Larry Lindstrom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > I've been too busy starting arguments in RASF1, > and generally being a pain in the ass,

EldredP wrote: > second of each other. Those are the tracks I know well. I get into trouble > when I try something different to go faster. I don't know how to go faster > without crashing... Well, I've thought about this myself (how to be faster without crashing) and have partially come to a conclusion. When do we (generally) crash *most* when pushing it? Answer: when we're entering a turn too fast. Enter too fast and there's really not a lot we can do - there's only so much grip the tyres will give. So, part of the answer lies in *not* entering the turn too fast. Enter normal, but be faster (more throttle, different line) in the middle and the exit of the turn. At least when we mess up there, we can just reduce throttle and it won't automatically mean crashing out (again, generally). Of course that's only a partial explanation, but it does work in general. Part of it is what the old-timers say: don't brake ultra late, but be early in accelerating to carry out much speed on straights. Regards, Rudy (GPLRank -10)

Haqsau wrote:

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> Huh? You have not been or done either one. This is all valid > discussion and you are welcome here. > > "Larry Lindstrom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> >> I've been too busy starting arguments in RASF1, >> and generally being a pain in the ass,

I totally agree. If anyone shouldn't be here, it's me for taking the hosts rear wing off ! ! ;) -- Ian P <email invalid due to spammers>