British Tabloid editors are scum of the earth

Yeah, mine too, but lets not forget the two officials and thier families. We marshals do NOT get paid, and are there for the love of hte sport, very much the unsung heros and in situations like this, totally forgotten. We accept that motorsport is dangerous by no one wants or expects this type of accident to occur. John Booker. -- Member of Victorian Flagmarshalling Team CAMS Accredited Official F3 O3 U3 Produciton crewmember of In Pit Lane, Channel 31, Melbourne AKA The man with the green flag when Lowndes rotated at Calder

Unfortunately Mark, people pay money to read about others tragedies. Until the public stops paying for this kind of reporting, these articles will continue. Perhaps a mass response to the editor from all who were offended at their work would be in order....... -- Ken http://BovineRacing.com [email hidden]

you know, those cars weren't that safe when driven back then by the best in motorsports of the time. I had always wondered what extra precautions are taken, so that it is safer than what most claim to be the most dangerous time in motorsports. Now I don't know much about it, but I wasn't that surprised somehow to see Bruce's post above. Can someone clear up the situation for me? I'm just concerned that these things are going to continue to happen. It's one think when a professional F1 guy died at the peak of his sport, it's another thing when someone dies racing in a classic car festival race. It just seems to pointless. My condolences go out to the family indeed, and I hope we might get some answers. Was the pilot made unaware of the relative dangers by someone or another? m.seery <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:gdQ55.1256$[email hidden]...

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> Sorry guys, this is a vent. This weekend was the festival of speed at > Goodwood. > > I opened a copy of the Daily Sun lying around at work today > > Tragically, one competitor was killed this weekend when his winged (1969) > Lotus 49 Lost control on the finish straight and hit the finishing post at > 100mph. A marshall was also killed and another is fighting for his life. > > In full Daily sun tradition, the bastards had a "Scoop" with a series of > photos showing the accident unfold from the time when the driver lost > control right up to (and including) the moment of impact !! > > They also reported that the car "Was the same 1969 model that Mario

Andretti

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> drove" !! > > These bastards want taking out and shooting at dawn. > > My condolences to the bereaved. > > MS > > > >

Well, I fully understand and agree with the reactions to the 'popular' press coverage. They don't show too much interest in motor sport, until there's a crash, then they're all over it. > It's one think when a professional > F1 guy died at the peak of his sport, it's another thing when someone dies > racing in a classic car festival race. It just seems to pointless. On this point, I don't see the difference, to be honest. These people are not total amateurs who just happen to have an old F1 car lying around. They are quite 'professional' in their own way. I don't think just anyone would be allowed to run their car at Goodwood. Motor sprit is dangerous, and all competitors know that. Their choice. You try to make things as safe as reasonably possible, but at the end of the day it's a dangerous activity. Hell, life is a dangerous activity. Neverthe less a sad occasion at a great event (I was there) and my condolences also to the bereaved. John Kai Fuller <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aKQ55.229125$[email hidden]... > you know, those cars weren't that safe when driven back then by the bestin > motorsports of the time. > > I had always wondered what extra precautions are taken, so that it issafer > than what most claim to be the most dangerous time in motorsports. Now I > don't know much about it, but I wasn't that surprised somehow to seeBruce's

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> post above. > > Can someone clear up the situation for me? I'm just concerned that these > things are going to continue to happen. It's one think when a professional > F1 guy died at the peak of his sport, it's another thing when someone dies > racing in a classic car festival race. It just seems to pointless. > > My condolences go out to the family indeed, and I hope we might get some > answers. Was the pilot made unaware of the relative dangers by someone or > another? > > > m.seery <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:gdQ55.1256$[email hidden]... > > Sorry guys, this is a vent. This weekend was the festival of speed at > > Goodwood. > > > > I opened a copy of the Daily Sun lying around at work today > > > > Tragically, one competitor was killed this weekend when his winged

(1969) > > Lotus 49 Lost control on the finish straight and hit the finishing postat

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> > 100mph. A marshall was also killed and another is fighting for his life. > > > > In full Daily sun tradition, the bastards had a "Scoop" with a series of > > photos showing the accident unfold from the time when the driver lost > > control right up to (and including) the moment of impact !! > > > > They also reported that the car "Was the same 1969 model that Mario > Andretti > > drove" !! > > > > These bastards want taking out and shooting at dawn. > > > > My condolences to the bereaved. > > > > MS > > > > > > > > > >

Sorry guys, this is a vent. This weekend was the festival of speed at Goodwood. I opened a copy of the Daily Sun lying around at work today Tragically, one competitor was killed this weekend when his winged (1969) Lotus 49 Lost control on the finish straight and hit the finishing post at 100mph. A marshall was also killed and another is fighting for his life. In full Daily sun tradition, the bastards had a "Scoop" with a series of photos showing the accident unfold from the time when the driver lost control right up to (and including) the moment of impact !! They also reported that the car "Was the same 1969 model that Mario Andretti drove" !! These bastards want taking out and shooting at dawn. My condolences to the bereaved. MS

The reporting was not the problem Ken. It was the graphical nature of the photography that was disturbing and I'm sure to many, distressing. MS "Ken McDaniel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8j8khp$mao$[email hidden]...

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> Unfortunately Mark, people pay money to read about others tragedies. Until > the public stops paying for this kind of reporting, these articles will > continue. Perhaps a mass response to the editor from all who were offended > at their work would be in order....... > -- > Ken > http://BovineRacing.com > [email hidden] > >

In article <gdQ55.1256$[email hidden]>, "m.seery" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Sorry guys, this is a vent. This weekend was the festival of speed at >Goodwood. > >I opened a copy of the Daily Sun lying around at work today Is this a GM Mutated copy of the Daily Mirror or the Sun- Egads!

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>Tragically, one competitor was killed this weekend when his winged (1969) >Lotus 49 Lost control on the finish straight and hit the finishing post at >100mph. A marshall was also killed and another is fighting for his life. > >In full Daily sun tradition, the bastards had a "Scoop" with a series of >photos showing the accident unfold from the time when the driver lost >control right up to (and including) the moment of impact !!

Well, to be honest, it's pretty high brow for the Sun, similarly for the Mirror.

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>They also reported that the car "Was the same 1969 model that Mario Andretti >drove" !! > >These bastards want taking out and shooting at dawn. > >My condolences to the bereaved. > >MS

Please remove my_pants when replying.

I'm surprised it took you so long to realise that...

On Tue 27 Jun 2000 02:05:45am, Kai Fuller wrote: >your right I've never seen it in person, so that's why I asked it >all in a form of a question. Although I don't think it's worth it >just for the fans, I think that if the driver wants to do it he >should have all the right, and if fans want to watch that's great.<snip> Believe me, those drivers aren't pressured into driving. No-one's making them come to Goodwood. They do it because they love it. Anyone who's been in the paddock at an occasion like this will have been convinced of the sheer enjoyment they feel. The UK has the best classic/historic motorsport scene in the world, and a lot of that is because of the enthusiasm of the people who matter. Can you honestly see anything like Goodwood (either the Festival of Speed or the circuit meeting) happening anywhere else? -- David. (GPLRank handicap: +39.92) "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

I didn't intend to say these guys aren't good drivers, I'm just saying that the best of the time died doing this, so even if these guys are as good as Clark (which they might be, who knows if they got the chance in a time warp...) but that they made major changes to F1 over the years to make it much safer. It seems kind of lame to me to go back to a dangerous time just for entertainments sake. Wouldn't these drivers be just as served by racing newer safer cars? say based on the older cars? Do they at least have seat belts now? John Fryatt <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8j8mhb$onq$[email hidden]... > Well, I fully understand and agree with the reactions to the 'popular'press > coverage. They don't show too much interest in motor sport, until there'sa > crash, then they're all over it. > > > It's one think when a professional > > F1 guy died at the peak of his sport, it's another thing when someonedies > > racing in a classic car festival race. It just seems to pointless. > > On this point, I don't see the difference, to be honest. These people are > not total amateurs who just happen to have an old F1 car lying around.They > are quite 'professional' in their own way. I don't think just anyone would > be allowed to run their car at Goodwood. > Motor sprit is dangerous, and all competitors know that. Their choice. You > try to make things as safe as reasonably possible, but at the end of theday

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> it's a dangerous activity. Hell, life is a dangerous activity. > > Neverthe less a sad occasion at a great event (I was there) and my > condolences also to the bereaved. > > John > > > Kai Fuller <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:aKQ55.229125$[email hidden]... > > you know, those cars weren't that safe when driven back then by the best > in > > motorsports of the time. > > > > I had always wondered what extra precautions are taken, so that it is > safer > > than what most claim to be the most dangerous time in motorsports. Now I > > don't know much about it, but I wasn't that surprised somehow to see > Bruce's > > post above. > > > > Can someone clear up the situation for me? I'm just concerned that these > > things are going to continue to happen. It's one think when a

professional > > F1 guy died at the peak of his sport, it's another thing when someonedies > > racing in a classic car festival race. It just seems to pointless. > > > > My condolences go out to the family indeed, and I hope we might get some > > answers. Was the pilot made unaware of the relative dangers by someoneor

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> > another? > > > > > > m.seery <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:gdQ55.1256$[email hidden]... > > > Sorry guys, this is a vent. This weekend was the festival of speed at > > > Goodwood. > > > > > > I opened a copy of the Daily Sun lying around at work today > > > > > > Tragically, one competitor was killed this weekend when his winged > (1969) > > > Lotus 49 Lost control on the finish straight and hit the finishing

post > at > > > 100mph. A marshall was also killed and another is fighting for hislife. > > > > > > In full Daily sun tradition, the bastards had a "Scoop" with a seriesof

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> > > photos showing the accident unfold from the time when the driver lost > > > control right up to (and including) the moment of impact !! > > > > > > They also reported that the car "Was the same 1969 model that Mario > > Andretti > > > drove" !! > > > > > > These bastards want taking out and shooting at dawn. > > > > > > My condolences to the bereaved. > > > > > > MS > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

your right I've never seen it in person, so that's why I asked it all in a form of a question. Although I don't think it's worth it just for the fans, I think that if the driver wants to do it he should have all the right, and if fans want to watch that's great. Jan Verschueren <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:J8S55.73003$[email hidden]...

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> Kai, > > Sorry to put it this way, but I'm sure if you'd actually seen these cars > being driven your response would be quite different. > > Their shape, the way the look on track, the way they sound, the way they > smell. The experience is a thousand times richer than seeing one in a

museum > somewhere. These cars are meant to be driven. And this is just theviewpoint > standing trackside. Imagine driving one. > > People who own these cars are enthousiasts, the people who drive them are > skilled racers, doing what they like doing best. I am sure they are awareof > the dangers, but I doubt any of them feel vunerable in the car. Havingraced > a little myself and having driven some seriously powerful cars (makefriends > with racers and car journo's and wait for scraps falling off the table<g>), > I can imagine drivers having some apprehension, but once behind the wheel > not doubting their ability to control the car. > > A deeply tragic occurance, of course and my thoughts go out to the > respective families, but I'm sure the owner/driver looked forward todriving > his Lotus around Goodwood for months in advance and thoroughly enjoyedevery > second of his track time up until the accident. > > It seems we humans enjoy inherently dangerous activities. They make usfeel > "alive", even if experienced 2nd hand and I, for one, think the richnessof

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> life would be reduced if the opportunity were taken away from us. > > Jan. > =--- > > Kai Fuller wrote... > > you know, those cars weren't that safe when driven back then by the best > in > > motorsports of the time. > > > > I had always wondered what extra precautions are taken, so that it is > safer > > than what most claim to be the most dangerous time in motorsports. Now I > > don't know much about it, but I wasn't that surprised somehow to see > Bruce's > > post above. > > > > Can someone clear up the situation for me? I'm just concerned that these > > things are going to continue to happen. It's one think when a

professional > > F1 guy died at the peak of his sport, it's another thing when someonedies > > racing in a classic car festival race. It just seems to pointless. > > > > My condolences go out to the family indeed, and I hope we might get some > > answers. Was the pilot made unaware of the relative dangers by someoneor > > another? > > > > <snip> > >

So, because the photography was disturbing, you feel these people should be taken out and shot at dawn? Or did I misread what you typed? "m.seery" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:OLQ55.1327$[email hidden]...

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> The reporting was not the problem Ken. It was the graphical nature of the > photography that was disturbing and I'm sure to many, distressing. > > MS > "Ken McDaniel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8j8khp$mao$[email hidden]... > > Unfortunately Mark, people pay money to read about others tragedies.

Until > > the public stops paying for this kind of reporting, these articles will > > continue. Perhaps a mass response to the editor from all who wereoffended

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> > at their work would be in order....... > > -- > > Ken > > http://BovineRacing.com > > [email hidden] > > > > > >

Kai, Sorry to put it this way, but I'm sure if you'd actually seen these cars being driven your response would be quite different. Their shape, the way the look on track, the way they sound, the way they smell. The experience is a thousand times richer than seeing one in a museum somewhere. These cars are meant to be driven. And this is just the viewpoint standing trackside. Imagine driving one. People who own these cars are enthousiasts, the people who drive them are skilled racers, doing what they like doing best. I am sure they are aware of the dangers, but I doubt any of them feel vunerable in the car. Having raced a little myself and having driven some seriously powerful cars (make friends with racers and car journo's and wait for scraps falling off the table <g>), I can imagine drivers having some apprehension, but once behind the wheel not doubting their ability to control the car. A deeply tragic occurance, of course and my thoughts go out to the respective families, but I'm sure the owner/driver looked forward to driving his Lotus around Goodwood for months in advance and thoroughly enjoyed every second of his track time up until the accident. It seems we humans enjoy inherently dangerous activities. They make us feel "alive", even if experienced 2nd hand and I, for one, think the richness of life would be reduced if the opportunity were taken away from us. Jan. =--- Kai Fuller wrote... > you know, those cars weren't that safe when driven back then by the bestin > motorsports of the time. > > I had always wondered what extra precautions are taken, so that it issafer > than what most claim to be the most dangerous time in motorsports. Now I > don't know much about it, but I wasn't that surprised somehow to seeBruce's

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> post above. > > Can someone clear up the situation for me? I'm just concerned that these > things are going to continue to happen. It's one think when a professional > F1 guy died at the peak of his sport, it's another thing when someone dies > racing in a classic car festival race. It just seems to pointless. > > My condolences go out to the family indeed, and I hope we might get some > answers. Was the pilot made unaware of the relative dangers by someone or > another? > > <snip>

Right Mark, but the photos they published were part of the reporting style of tabloid magazines. We get the same graphic kind of publications in the US too. The Princes Dy stuff was awful. I agree, it is not the reporting of a tragedy that is a problem, but the way it is presented.... -- Ken http://BovineRacing.com [email hidden]

John, Yes, you are quite right. I do understand about marshals, as I know a couple of people who have done some in the past. It isn't the 'glamorous' role of the driver, but without it you couldn't really have any sensible motorsport. Incidentally, is this a British thing? Are marshals unpaid amateurs (*) in other countries? All the best, John * - amateur in the positive sense of doing something for the love of it, not for money. John Booker <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > John Fryatt <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8j8mhb$onq$[email hidden]... > > Well, I fully understand and agree with the reactions to the 'popular' > press > > coverage. They don't show too much interest in motor sport, untilthere's

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> a > > crash, then they're all over it. > > > > > It's one think when a professional > > > F1 guy died at the peak of his sport, it's another thing when someone > dies > > > racing in a classic car festival race. It just seems to pointless. > > > > On this point, I don't see the difference, to be honest. These people

are > > not total amateurs who just happen to have an old F1 car lying around. > They > > are quite 'professional' in their own way. I don't think just anyonewould > > be allowed to run their car at Goodwood. > > Motor sprit is dangerous, and all competitors know that. Their choice.You

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> > try to make things as safe as reasonably possible, but at the end of the > day > > it's a dangerous activity. Hell, life is a dangerous activity. > > > > Neverthe less a sad occasion at a great event (I was there) and my > > condolences also to the bereaved. > > Yeah, mine too, but lets not forget the two officials and thier families. > We marshals do NOT get paid, and are there for the love of hte sport, very > much the unsung heros and in situations like this, totally forgotten. We > accept that motorsport is dangerous by no one wants or expects this type

of

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> accident to occur. > > John Booker. > -- > Member of Victorian Flagmarshalling Team > CAMS Accredited Official F3 O3 U3 > Produciton crewmember of In Pit Lane, Channel 31, Melbourne > AKA The man with the green flag when Lowndes rotated at Calder > >

I'm surprised it took you so long to realise that...

Is this a GM Mutated copy of the Daily Mirror or the Sun- Egads! Well, to be honest, it's pretty high brow for the Sun, similarly for the Mirror. Please remove my_pants when replying.

"Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:h2T55.229499$[email hidden]... > I didn't intend to say these guys aren't good drivers, I'm just sayingthat > the best of the time died doing this, so even if these guys are as good as > Clark (which they might be, who knows if they got the chance in a time > warp...) but that they made major changes to F1 over the years to make it > much safer. It seems kind of lame to me to go back to a dangerous timejust > for entertainments sake. Wouldn't these drivers be just as served byracing > newer safer cars? say based on the older cars? Do they at least have seat > belts now? > Just as it was in the time of these cars being raced at the higest level, the choice to take the risk is that of the driver, and only that of the driver. I personally support the idea that every adult is free to take whatever risks he/she feels is personally appropriate.

The reporting was pretty piss poor to if they identified the car as a Lotus 49. It was the 4wd 63. This is a SIMILAR car to the one that Andretti drove in practice at Indy.

John Fryatt <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8j8mhb$onq$[email hidden]... > Well, I fully understand and agree with the reactions to the 'popular'press > coverage. They don't show too much interest in motor sport, until there'sa > crash, then they're all over it. > > > It's one think when a professional > > F1 guy died at the peak of his sport, it's another thing when someonedies > > racing in a classic car festival race. It just seems to pointless. > > On this point, I don't see the difference, to be honest. These people are > not total amateurs who just happen to have an old F1 car lying around.They > are quite 'professional' in their own way. I don't think just anyone would > be allowed to run their car at Goodwood. > Motor sprit is dangerous, and all competitors know that. Their choice. You > try to make things as safe as reasonably possible, but at the end of theday > it's a dangerous activity. Hell, life is a dangerous activity. > > Neverthe less a sad occasion at a great event (I was there) and my > condolences also to the bereaved. Yeah, mine too, but lets not forget the two officials and thier families. We marshals do NOT get paid, and are there for the love of hte sport, very much the unsung heros and in situations like this, totally forgotten. We accept that motorsport is dangerous by no one wants or expects this type of accident to occur. John Booker. -- Member of Victorian Flagmarshalling Team CAMS Accredited Official F3 O3 U3 Produciton crewmember of In Pit Lane, Channel 31, Melbourne AKA The man with the green flag when Lowndes rotated at Calder

> Incidentally, is this a British thing? Are marshals unpaid amateurs (*) in > other countries? > > All the best, John Marshals are unpaid volunteers. Period. Everywhere, at every level. Even the marshals at an F1 world championship race are unpaid volunteers.

Bruce I'm not saying that they shouldn't allowed to do it or anything, It's just that I'm having a hard rime understanding that racing isn't racing. I disagree that I will look back at today's cars and think their cooler than the new ones. To me, I look back and NASCAR from 4 years ago and realize how lame the cars looked compared to today. (paintjobs and body style wise) Back to my point, racing is racing to me, I don't care if it's go carts, Nascar, Cart, IRL, F1, sportscars, that louge racing at the X games, kids on tykes or even horses... I don't have any reason as a spectator to like watch the new cars more than the old ones as long as it's a good race. All I'm saying is that wouldn't it be fairly easy to add some simple safety features without effecting the look and feel of the cars too much? Again I'm not saying I have anything against the driver or criticizing them, as it may come a across so just take my word for it. Bruce Kennewell <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > You are missing the point completely, Kai. > > They do what they do because they LOVE it and the cars they own and drive. > More modern, safer, cars have little or no interest. They relate to the > cars that were the stars of F1 (and other forms of motor-sport) when THEY > were younger. Like myself. And like you might be in 30 yearstime...you'll

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> relate more to what is NOW than what will be around in 2030. > > That's the way of the world, Kai. That's called the "generation gap". > > -- > Regards, > Bruce Kennewell, > Canberra, Australia. > --------------------------- > > Kai Fuller <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:h2T55.229499$[email hidden]... > > I didn't intend to say these guys aren't good drivers, I'm just saying > that > > the best of the time died doing this, so even if these guys are as good

as > > Clark (which they might be, who knows if they got the chance in a time > > warp...) but that they made major changes to F1 over the years to makeit > > much safer. It seems kind of lame to me to go back to a dangerous time > just > > for entertainments sake. Wouldn't these drivers be just as served by > racing > > newer safer cars? say based on the older cars? Do they at least haveseat

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> > belts now? > > > > > > > > John Fryatt <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:8j8mhb$onq$[email hidden]... > > > Well, I fully understand and agree with the reactions to the 'popular' > > press > > > coverage. They don't show too much interest in motor sport, until > there's > > a > > > crash, then they're all over it. > > > > > > > It's one think when a professional > > > > F1 guy died at the peak of his sport, it's another thing when

someone

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> > dies > > > > racing in a classic car festival race. It just seems to pointless. > > > > > > On this point, I don't see the difference, to be honest. These people > are > > > not total amateurs who just happen to have an old F1 car lying around. > > They > > > are quite 'professional' in their own way. I don't think just anyone > would > > > be allowed to run their car at Goodwood. > > > Motor sprit is dangerous, and all competitors know that. Their choice. > You > > > try to make things as safe as reasonably possible, but at the end of

the

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> > day > > > it's a dangerous activity. Hell, life is a dangerous activity. > > > > > > Neverthe less a sad occasion at a great event (I was there) and my > > > condolences also to the bereaved. > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > Kai Fuller <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:aKQ55.229125$[email hidden]... > > > > you know, those cars weren't that safe when driven back then by the > best > > > in > > > > motorsports of the time. > > > > > > > > I had always wondered what extra precautions are taken, so that it

is > > > safer > > > > than what most claim to be the most dangerous time in motorsports.Now

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> I > > > > don't know much about it, but I wasn't that surprised somehow to see > > > Bruce's > > > > post above. > > > > > > > > Can someone clear up the situation for me? I'm just concerned that > these > > > > things are going to continue to happen. It's one think when a > > professional > > > > F1 guy died at the peak of his sport, it's another thing when

someone > > dies > > > > racing in a classic car festival race. It just seems to pointless. > > > > > > > > My condolences go out to the family indeed, and I hope we might get > some > > > > answers. Was the pilot made unaware of the relative dangers bysomeone

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> > or > > > > another? > > > > > > > > > > > > m.seery <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:gdQ55.1256$[email hidden]... > > > > > Sorry guys, this is a vent. This weekend was the festival of speed > at > > > > > Goodwood. > > > > > > > > > > I opened a copy of the Daily Sun lying around at work today > > > > > > > > > > Tragically, one competitor was killed this weekend when his winged > > > (1969) > > > > > Lotus 49 Lost control on the finish straight and hit the finishing > > post > > > at > > > > > 100mph. A marshall was also killed and another is fighting for his > > life. > > > > > > > > > > In full Daily sun tradition, the bastards had a "Scoop" with a > series > > of > > > > > photos showing the accident unfold from the time when the driver > lost > > > > > control right up to (and including) the moment of impact !! > > > > > > > > > > They also reported that the car "Was the same 1969 model that

Mario

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> > > > Andretti > > > > > drove" !! > > > > > > > > > > These bastards want taking out and shooting at dawn. > > > > > > > > > > My condolences to the bereaved. > > > > > > > > > > MS > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

ok off-topic here... I disagree Bruce. If you die in bed a old man, the means you've contributed as much to society as your body would allow. It may not be an ideal end personally, but I'm a little more concerned about giving the most I can to improve humanity through my own actions. Life may not have a point, but it is upon us to give it the point we so choose. If that persons point was to race that is great, but I would think safety precautions could always be made to keep this person alive. That's why I said pointless, when I meant unnecessary, I'm sorry for my poor choice of words there. So let me reiterate that I meant, yeah and F1 guy might die because technology is going faster than safety, but if the car has been out for 50 some years, then by now there should be sufficient knowledge to keep the driver safe, without effecting the performance of the cars. Bruce Kennewell <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > No, Kai...it is NOT "pointless". It is no more pointless than dying in bed > from old age and senility, unable to control your bodily functions and > incapable of remembering the names of your offspring. > These people (amateur racing drivers) are involved in something that they > love doing and which they know can bring injury, or death, if somethinggoes

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> awry. The fact that they may die in pursuit of their enjoyment is no more > ridiculous than a professional racing driver dying whilst earning his > livelihood. They are bot doing something that they chose to do. > > Life is "pointless", mate. Death is simply the full-stop at the end of the > sentence. > > -- > Regards, > Bruce Kennewell, > Canberra, Australia. > --------------------------- > > Kai Fuller <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:aKQ55.229125$[email hidden]... > > you know, those cars weren't that safe when driven back then by the best > in > > motorsports of the time. > > > > I had always wondered what extra precautions are taken, so that it is > safer > > than what most claim to be the most dangerous time in motorsports. Now I > > don't know much about it, but I wasn't that surprised somehow to see > Bruce's > > post above. > > > > Can someone clear up the situation for me? I'm just concerned that these > > things are going to continue to happen. It's one think when a

professional > > F1 guy died at the peak of his sport, it's another thing when someonedies > > racing in a classic car festival race. It just seems to pointless. > > > > My condolences go out to the family indeed, and I hope we might get some > > answers. Was the pilot made unaware of the relative dangers by someoneor

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> > another? > > > > > > m.seery <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:gdQ55.1256$[email hidden]... > > > Sorry guys, this is a vent. This weekend was the festival of speed at > > > Goodwood. > > > > > > I opened a copy of the Daily Sun lying around at work today > > > > > > Tragically, one competitor was killed this weekend when his winged > (1969) > > > Lotus 49 Lost control on the finish straight and hit the finishing

post > at > > > 100mph. A marshall was also killed and another is fighting for hislife. > > > > > > In full Daily sun tradition, the bastards had a "Scoop" with a seriesof

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> > > photos showing the accident unfold from the time when the driver lost > > > control right up to (and including) the moment of impact !! > > > > > > They also reported that the car "Was the same 1969 model that Mario > > Andretti > > > drove" !! > > > > > > These bastards want taking out and shooting at dawn. > > > > > > My condolences to the bereaved. > > > > > > MS > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

And the fact, as stated that it was the Andretti Lotus! MS "Kevin Gavitt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Am165.12067$[email hidden]... > The reporting was pretty piss poor to if they identified the car as aLotus > 49. It was the 4wd 63. This is a SIMILAR car to the one that Andrettidrove > in practice at Indy. > >

Jeez you people take things so literally sometimes! MS "Todd Sorensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:TqT55.13267$[email hidden]... > So, because the photography was disturbing, you feel these people shouldbe

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> taken out and shot at dawn? Or did I misread what you typed? > > > > "m.seery" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:OLQ55.1327$[email hidden]... > > The reporting was not the problem Ken. It was the graphical nature of

the

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> > photography that was disturbing and I'm sure to many, distressing. > > > > MS > > "Ken McDaniel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:8j8khp$mao$[email hidden]... > > > Unfortunately Mark, people pay money to read about others tragedies. > Until > > > the public stops paying for this kind of reporting, these articles

will

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> > > continue. Perhaps a mass response to the editor from all who were > offended > > > at their work would be in order....... > > > -- > > > Ken > > > http://BovineRacing.com > > > [email hidden] > > > > > > > > > > > >

On Tue 27 Jun 2000 01:02:59pm, Bruce Kennewell wrote: >Yes...Australia, South Africa, New Zealand, to name but three. Ah, but did they actually *do* it? :-) >However, Vintage or Historic Racing in the USA is run in a somewhat >different manner which, in SOME cases, emasculates the performance >of the drivers. (Note that I say "SOME" cases.....not all.) The >attitude is, however, generally towards the "parade" or >"demonstration" type of racing rather than full-on competition.<snip> Presumably that's at least in part a result of the fear of crippling litigation. (On a similar point, I remember reading somewhere that the development of cricket in some parts of the US was being stymied by local parks' insistence that the grass should be at least 2 inches long, to avoid people slipping over and suing them.) -- David. (GPLRank handicap: +39.92) "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

They did it in 1967, Mark, and there has certainly been no change in the past 30 years. -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- m.seery <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:OLQ55.1327$[email hidden]... > The reporting was not the problem Ken. It was the graphical nature of the > photography that was disturbing and I'm sure to many, distressing. > > MS > "Ken McDaniel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8j8khp$mao$[email hidden]... > > Unfortunately Mark, people pay money to read about others tragedies. Until > > the public stops paying for this kind of reporting, these articles will > > continue. Perhaps a mass response to the editor from all who were offended > > at their work would be in order....... > > -- > > Ken > > http://BovineRacing.com > > [email hidden] > > > > > >

No, Kai...it is NOT "pointless". It is no more pointless than dying in bed from old age and senility, unable to control your bodily functions and incapable of remembering the names of your offspring. These people (amateur racing drivers) are involved in something that they love doing and which they know can bring injury, or death, if something goes awry. The fact that they may die in pursuit of their enjoyment is no more ridiculous than a professional racing driver dying whilst earning his livelihood. They are bot doing something that they chose to do. Life is "pointless", mate. Death is simply the full-stop at the end of the sentence. -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- Kai Fuller <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aKQ55.229125$[email hidden]... > you know, those cars weren't that safe when driven back then by the best in > motorsports of the time. > > I had always wondered what extra precautions are taken, so that it is safer > than what most claim to be the most dangerous time in motorsports. Now I > don't know much about it, but I wasn't that surprised somehow to see Bruce's > post above. > > Can someone clear up the situation for me? I'm just concerned that these > things are going to continue to happen. It's one think when a professional > F1 guy died at the peak of his sport, it's another thing when someone dies > racing in a classic car festival race. It just seems to pointless. > > My condolences go out to the family indeed, and I hope we might get some > answers. Was the pilot made unaware of the relative dangers by someone or > another? > > > m.seery <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:gdQ55.1256$[email hidden]... > > Sorry guys, this is a vent. This weekend was the festival of speed at > > Goodwood. > > > > I opened a copy of the Daily Sun lying around at work today > > > > Tragically, one competitor was killed this weekend when his winged (1969) > > Lotus 49 Lost control on the finish straight and hit the finishing post at > > 100mph. A marshall was also killed and another is fighting for his life. > > > > In full Daily sun tradition, the bastards had a "Scoop" with a series of > > photos showing the accident unfold from the time when the driver lost > > control right up to (and including) the moment of impact !! > > > > They also reported that the car "Was the same 1969 model that Mario > Andretti > > drove" !! > > > > These bastards want taking out and shooting at dawn. > > > > My condolences to the bereaved. > > > > MS > > > > > > > > > >

You are missing the point completely, Kai. They do what they do because they LOVE it and the cars they own and drive. More modern, safer, cars have little or no interest. They relate to the cars that were the stars of F1 (and other forms of motor-sport) when THEY were younger. Like myself. And like you might be in 30 years time...you'll relate more to what is NOW than what will be around in 2030. That's the way of the world, Kai. That's called the "generation gap". -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- Kai Fuller <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:h2T55.229499$[email hidden]... > I didn't intend to say these guys aren't good drivers, I'm just saying that > the best of the time died doing this, so even if these guys are as good as > Clark (which they might be, who knows if they got the chance in a time > warp...) but that they made major changes to F1 over the years to make it > much safer. It seems kind of lame to me to go back to a dangerous time just > for entertainments sake. Wouldn't these drivers be just as served by racing > newer safer cars? say based on the older cars? Do they at least have seat > belts now? > > > > John Fryatt <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8j8mhb$onq$[email hidden]... > > Well, I fully understand and agree with the reactions to the 'popular' > press > > coverage. They don't show too much interest in motor sport, until there's > a > > crash, then they're all over it. > > > > > It's one think when a professional > > > F1 guy died at the peak of his sport, it's another thing when someone > dies > > > racing in a classic car festival race. It just seems to pointless. > > > > On this point, I don't see the difference, to be honest. These people are > > not total amateurs who just happen to have an old F1 car lying around. > They > > are quite 'professional' in their own way. I don't think just anyone would > > be allowed to run their car at Goodwood. > > Motor sprit is dangerous, and all competitors know that. Their choice. You > > try to make things as safe as reasonably possible, but at the end of the > day > > it's a dangerous activity. Hell, life is a dangerous activity. > > > > Neverthe less a sad occasion at a great event (I was there) and my > > condolences also to the bereaved. > > > > John > > > > > > Kai Fuller <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:aKQ55.229125$[email hidden]... > > > you know, those cars weren't that safe when driven back then by the best > > in > > > motorsports of the time. > > > > > > I had always wondered what extra precautions are taken, so that it is > > safer > > > than what most claim to be the most dangerous time in motorsports. Now I > > > don't know much about it, but I wasn't that surprised somehow to see > > Bruce's > > > post above. > > > > > > Can someone clear up the situation for me? I'm just concerned that these > > > things are going to continue to happen. It's one think when a > professional > > > F1 guy died at the peak of his sport, it's another thing when someone > dies > > > racing in a classic car festival race. It just seems to pointless. > > > > > > My condolences go out to the family indeed, and I hope we might get some > > > answers. Was the pilot made unaware of the relative dangers by someone > or > > > another? > > > > > > > > > m.seery <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:gdQ55.1256$[email hidden]... > > > > Sorry guys, this is a vent. This weekend was the festival of speed at > > > > Goodwood. > > > > > > > > I opened a copy of the Daily Sun lying around at work today > > > > > > > > Tragically, one competitor was killed this weekend when his winged > > (1969) > > > > Lotus 49 Lost control on the finish straight and hit the finishing > post > > at > > > > 100mph. A marshall was also killed and another is fighting for his > life. > > > > > > > > In full Daily sun tradition, the bastards had a "Scoop" with a series > of > > > > photos showing the accident unfold from the time when the driver lost > > > > control right up to (and including) the moment of impact !! > > > > > > > > They also reported that the car "Was the same 1969 model that Mario > > > Andretti > > > > drove" !! > > > > > > > > These bastards want taking out and shooting at dawn. > > > > > > > > My condolences to the bereaved. > > > > > > > > MS > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Yes...Australia, South Africa, New Zealand, to name but three. However, Vintage or Historic Racing in the USA is run in a somewhat different manner which, in SOME cases, emasculates the performance of the drivers. (Note that I say "SOME" cases.....not all.) The attitude is, however, generally towards the "parade" or "demonstration" type of racing rather than full-on competition. Britain is without any shadow of a doubt the hub of the Universe when it comes to really competing in Vintage, Veteran and Historic motorcars and I for one applaud their attitude without any hesitation. One retired racer was asked his opinion some years ago on whether precious old cars should be raced or simply preserved as static displays. His response was without hesitation when he said something to the effect that they "Should be raced! They can always be repaired, rebuilt, restored". In the next breath the interviewer stated that the drivers couldn't always be repaired though. "That's not important....we HAVE to die one day. These cars don't". Just about sums it up from my way of looking at it. -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- David Buttery <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Tue 27 Jun 2000 02:05:45am, Kai Fuller wrote: > > >your right I've never seen it in person, so that's why I asked it > >all in a form of a question. Although I don't think it's worth it > >just for the fans, I think that if the driver wants to do it he > >should have all the right, and if fans want to watch that's great. > <snip> > > Believe me, those drivers aren't pressured into driving. No-one's > making them come to Goodwood. They do it because they love it. Anyone > who's been in the paddock at an occasion like this will have been > convinced of the sheer enjoyment they feel. > > The UK has the best classic/historic motorsport scene in the world, and > a lot of that is because of the enthusiasm of the people who matter. > Can you honestly see anything like Goodwood (either the Festival of > Speed or the circuit meeting) happening anywhere else? > > -- > David. (GPLRank handicap: +39.92) > "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, > really." > (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

Certainly are in Australia. But then, simply because they are not paid doesn't make them any the less skilled. We have an army of unpaid volunteers who have saved lives and property hundreds of times over. They're members of the various Bushfire Brigades who protect us in the summer months. Then we have the State Emergency Services, also heavily manned by volunteers. -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- John Fryatt <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8j9u20$e1d$[email hidden]... > John, > > Yes, you are quite right. I do understand about marshals, as I know a couple > of people who have done some in the past. It isn't the 'glamorous' role of > the driver, but without it you couldn't really have any sensible motorsport. > > Incidentally, is this a British thing? Are marshals unpaid amateurs (*) in > other countries? > > All the best, John > > > > * - amateur in the positive sense of doing something for the love of it, not > for money. > > > John Booker <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > John Fryatt <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:8j8mhb$onq$[email hidden]... > > > Well, I fully understand and agree with the reactions to the 'popular' > > press > > > coverage. They don't show too much interest in motor sport, until > there's > > a > > > crash, then they're all over it. > > > > > > > It's one think when a professional > > > > F1 guy died at the peak of his sport, it's another thing when someone > > dies > > > > racing in a classic car festival race. It just seems to pointless. > > > > > > On this point, I don't see the difference, to be honest. These people > are > > > not total amateurs who just happen to have an old F1 car lying around. > > They > > > are quite 'professional' in their own way. I don't think just anyone > would > > > be allowed to run their car at Goodwood. > > > Motor sprit is dangerous, and all competitors know that. Their choice. > You > > > try to make things as safe as reasonably possible, but at the end of the > > day > > > it's a dangerous activity. Hell, life is a dangerous activity. > > > > > > Neverthe less a sad occasion at a great event (I was there) and my > > > condolences also to the bereaved. > > > > Yeah, mine too, but lets not forget the two officials and thier families. > > We marshals do NOT get paid, and are there for the love of hte sport, very > > much the unsung heros and in situations like this, totally forgotten. We > > accept that motorsport is dangerous by no one wants or expects this type > of > > accident to occur. > > > > John Booker. > > -- > > Member of Victorian Flagmarshalling Team > > CAMS Accredited Official F3 O3 U3 > > Produciton crewmember of In Pit Lane, Channel 31, Melbourne > > AKA The man with the green flag when Lowndes rotated at Calder > > > > > >

"m.seery" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:yV965.8054$[email hidden]... > And the fact, as stated that it was the Andretti Lotus! They stated it was the SAME car? Not the same TYPE of car? I mean, after all, the reason Andretti only drove it in practice was because the wheels fell off the damn thing and it scattered itself, and nearly Andretti as well, across half of Indiana. Rindt's did the same, and Lotus was then banned from the track for the year. So it couldn't have been the same actual car that Andretti drove. That car ceased to exist in May of 1969. Oh BOY did it cease to exist!

> All I'm saying is that wouldn't it be fairly easy to add some simplesafety > features without effecting the look and feel of the cars too much? Sure, seat belts and fire bottles. They add those where they don't already exist. Beyond that, no , it isn't easy. It also can effectively cost millions of dollars, depending on the car, to go farther than that even if it's possible. In any case, that wouldn't have helped anyone in this particular accident.

"Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Yes...Australia, South Africa, New Zealand, to name but three. > > However, Vintage or Historic Racing in the USA is run in a somewhat > different manner which, in SOME cases, emasculates the performance of the > drivers. (Note that I say "SOME" cases.....not all.) The attitude is, > however, generally towards the "parade" or "demonstration" type of racing > rather than full-on competition.

This used to be the case some years ago, but really isn't any longer. Even Brian Redman made the point a couple of years ago that vintage racing in the US has turned into serious racing.

> So let me reiterate that I meant, yeah and F1 guy might die because > technology is going faster than safety, but if the car has been out for 50 > some years, then by now there should be sufficient knowledge to keep the > driver safe, without effecting the performance of the cars. No. Today's cars are safer because they are newer and incorporate all that we know now. You can't go back to a 50 year old car and "add" the safety stuff. You would have to replace the entire car with a newer one.

(snip) I'm a little more concerned about giving the most I can to improve humanity through my own actions. (unsnip) Very noble of you, Kai. Whilst I certainly don't envy your devotion to this cause or even wish to emulate it I certainly do respect your aims. However, having seen my mother die a lingering death, when she expressed a wish to "go quickly" some years before, whilst still with full faculties, I have no wish whatsoever to die in bed an old man. And the last thing that will concern me is whether I've improved humanity or not. I want to die suddenly, preferably enjoying something that I love doing. To whither away as a burden on my family and those looking after me is NOT my desire. -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- Kai Fuller <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Tr765.281108$[email hidden]... > ok off-topic here... > > I disagree Bruce. > > If you die in bed a old man, the means you've contributed as much to > society as your body would allow. It may not be an ideal end personally, but > I'm a little more concerned about giving the most I can to improve humanity > through my own actions. > > Life may not have a point, but it is upon us to give it the point we so > choose. If that persons point was to race that is great, but I would think > safety precautions could always be made to keep this person alive. That's > why I said pointless, when I meant unnecessary, I'm sorry for my poor choice > of words there. > > So let me reiterate that I meant, yeah and F1 guy might die because > technology is going faster than safety, but if the car has been out for 50 > some years, then by now there should be sufficient knowledge to keep the > driver safe, without effecting the performance of the cars. > > Bruce Kennewell <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > No, Kai...it is NOT "pointless". It is no more pointless than dying in bed > > from old age and senility, unable to control your bodily functions and > > incapable of remembering the names of your offspring. > > These people (amateur racing drivers) are involved in something that they > > love doing and which they know can bring injury, or death, if something > goes > > awry. The fact that they may die in pursuit of their enjoyment is no more > > ridiculous than a professional racing driver dying whilst earning his > > livelihood. They are bot doing something that they chose to do. > > > > Life is "pointless", mate. Death is simply the full-stop at the end of the > > sentence. > > > > -- > > Regards, > > Bruce Kennewell, > > Canberra, Australia. > > --------------------------- > > > > Kai Fuller <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:aKQ55.229125$[email hidden]... > > > you know, those cars weren't that safe when driven back then by the best > > in > > > motorsports of the time. > > > > > > I had always wondered what extra precautions are taken, so that it is > > safer > > > than what most claim to be the most dangerous time in motorsports. Now I > > > don't know much about it, but I wasn't that surprised somehow to see > > Bruce's > > > post above. > > > > > > Can someone clear up the situation for me? I'm just concerned that these > > > things are going to continue to happen. It's one think when a > professional > > > F1 guy died at the peak of his sport, it's another thing when someone > dies > > > racing in a classic car festival race. It just seems to pointless. > > > > > > My condolences go out to the family indeed, and I hope we might get some > > > answers. Was the pilot made unaware of the relative dangers by someone > or > > > another? > > > > > > > > > m.seery <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:gdQ55.1256$[email hidden]... > > > > Sorry guys, this is a vent. This weekend was the festival of speed at > > > > Goodwood. > > > > > > > > I opened a copy of the Daily Sun lying around at work today > > > > > > > > Tragically, one competitor was killed this weekend when his winged > > (1969) > > > > Lotus 49 Lost control on the finish straight and hit the finishing > post > > at > > > > 100mph. A marshall was also killed and another is fighting for his > life. > > > > > > > > In full Daily sun tradition, the bastards had a "Scoop" with a series > of > > > > photos showing the accident unfold from the time when the driver lost > > > > control right up to (and including) the moment of impact !! > > > > > > > > They also reported that the car "Was the same 1969 model that Mario > > > Andretti > > > > drove" !! > > > > > > > > These bastards want taking out and shooting at dawn. > > > > > > > > My condolences to the bereaved. > > > > > > > > MS > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

"Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Uno momento, por favour! > Are we talking about the Lotus Type 63 or the Lotus Type 64? > We're talking the bad reporting that led to a claim the car that was involved in the crash at Goodwood was a 49 that Andretti drove. Since such is not the case who the hell knows WHAT we're talking about here. Andretti did, of course, drive a 49 in a Grand Prix. But the car that was involved in the accident at Goodwood was a variant of the car Andretti drove, and wrecked in practice, at Indy. Since the initial reporting is, shall we say, fucked, we arn't ever going to have a logical conversation about it. Which was part of the point that started this whole thread :)

Ah well, yes, we do, in fact, tend to look ascance at actually rubbing fenders in vintage cars.

I don't think that's why Americans aren't getting into cricket... Perhaps it's that the grass has to be less than 2 inches... Perhaps it's the same reason Formula 1 Soccer, Rugby and Australian Rules futbol hasn't caught on over here... We already have enough sports as it is. Baseball, Football, Basketball, Hockey, Tennis, Golf, American racing, Boxing, Olympic sports, all the new extreme sports, more and more soccer. I think we can do without cricket. David Buttery <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Tue 27 Jun 2000 01:02:59pm, Bruce Kennewell wrote: > > >Yes...Australia, South Africa, New Zealand, to name but three. > > Ah, but did they actually *do* it? :-) > > >However, Vintage or Historic Racing in the USA is run in a somewhat > >different manner which, in SOME cases, emasculates the performance > >of the drivers. (Note that I say "SOME" cases.....not all.) The > >attitude is, however, generally towards the "parade" or > >"demonstration" type of racing rather than full-on competition. > <snip> > > Presumably that's at least in part a result of the fear of crippling > litigation. (On a similar point, I remember reading somewhere that the > development of cricket in some parts of the US was being stymied by > local parks' insistence that the grass should be at least 2 inches > long, to avoid people slipping over and suing them.) > > -- > David. (GPLRank handicap: +39.92) > "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, > really." > (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

On 29 Jun 2000 00:28:40 GMT, [email hidden] (David Buttery) mangled uncounted electrons thus: >On Wed 28 Jun 2000 09:48:45pm, Kai Fuller wrote: > ><snip> >>I think we can do without cricket. > >Sorry, I don't understand. No-one can live without cricket. :-) Indeed! Well said, that man! Martin D. Pay Of course if America does take up cricket they'll probably beat us at it... just like everyone else does ATM... :(

On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:41:47 +1000, "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> mangled uncounted electrons thus: >I think that the entire WORLD can do without cricket, Kai! :-) Thou speakest heresy!!! Martin D. Pay Are we sufficiently off-topic yet? ^_^

On Wed 28 Jun 2000 09:48:45pm, Kai Fuller wrote: <snip> >I think we can do without cricket. Sorry, I don't understand. No-one can live without cricket. :-) -- David. (GPLRank handicap: +39.92) "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

On Wed 28 Jun 2000 04:23:02pm, Kevin Gavitt wrote: >Ah well, yes, we do, in fact, tend to look ascance at actually rubbing >fenders in vintage cars. But they're vintage *racing* cars! If you're going to race them, you can't expect never to dent the damn things. -- David. (GPLRank handicap: +39.92) "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

I'm not sure why they invoke those types of regulations, David. Maybe you're correct about the litigation but I have a feeling that the desire to mollycoddle the machinery (and possibly the drivers) plays a part as well. -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- David Buttery <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Tue 27 Jun 2000 01:02:59pm, Bruce Kennewell wrote: > > >Yes...Australia, South Africa, New Zealand, to name but three. > > Ah, but did they actually *do* it? :-) > > >However, Vintage or Historic Racing in the USA is run in a somewhat > >different manner which, in SOME cases, emasculates the performance > >of the drivers. (Note that I say "SOME" cases.....not all.) The > >attitude is, however, generally towards the "parade" or > >"demonstration" type of racing rather than full-on competition. > <snip> > > Presumably that's at least in part a result of the fear of crippling > litigation. (On a similar point, I remember reading somewhere that the > development of cricket in some parts of the US was being stymied by > local parks' insistence that the grass should be at least 2 inches > long, to avoid people slipping over and suing them.) > > -- > David. (GPLRank handicap: +39.92) > "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, > really." > (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

Uno momento, por favour! Are we talking about the Lotus Type 63 or the Lotus Type 64? -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- Kevin Gavitt <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Gwe65.14397$[email hidden]... > > "m.seery" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:yV965.8054$[email hidden]... > > And the fact, as stated that it was the Andretti Lotus! > > > They stated it was the SAME car? Not the same TYPE of car? > > I mean, after all, the reason Andretti only drove it in practice was because > the wheels fell off the damn thing and it scattered itself, and nearly > Andretti as well, across half of Indiana. Rindt's did the same, and Lotus > was then banned from the track for the year. > > So it couldn't have been the same actual car that Andretti drove. That car > ceased to exist in May of 1969. Oh BOY did it cease to exist! > >

Odd that you should say that, Kevin. Allow me to quote from a recent edition of the great US periodical, "Vintage Motorsport", the May/June 2000 issue, actually. Coincidentally, it features Brian Redman on the cover, in fact! However, it isn't his words to which I refer. It's actually a letter from a chap who lives in Covina, CA (which is, I assume, California?). He refers to the last Monterey Historic meeting, at which Stirling Moss competed. (Note: I use the word "competed" in the true sense!) Apparently Stirling became a little TOO competitive and the result was that he was chided by the authorities after a bingle occurred. His response was that he did "only what comes naturally to a professional race driver". The letter-writer takes umbrage at that statement by Mr. Moss and, in the last few sentences of his letter, we get to the heart of the matter. I quote in full:- "I do believe that they [professional drivers] must lower themselves to our level and adhere to the rules that we all must abide by in vintage racing in the US (as opposed to England where a little fender, or "wing" bashing seems to be acceptable). Thus I say again that SOME (lthough by that letter it may appear MOST) Vintage or Historic racing in the USA is NOT full-on competitive in the true sense or spirit of the word. -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- Kevin Gavitt <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:mze65.14399$[email hidden]... > > "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Yes...Australia, South Africa, New Zealand, to name but three. > > > > However, Vintage or Historic Racing in the USA is run in a somewhat > > different manner which, in SOME cases, emasculates the performance of the > > drivers. (Note that I say "SOME" cases.....not all.) The attitude is, > > however, generally towards the "parade" or "demonstration" type of racing > > rather than full-on competition. > > This used to be the case some years ago, but really isn't any longer. Even > Brian Redman made the point a couple of years ago that vintage racing in the > US has turned into serious racing. > >

I can't live without baseball. :) The perfect game indeed, where the pitchers don't all have to throw exactly the same, and the batters don't look like a 5 year old dinking the ball. David Buttery <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Wed 28 Jun 2000 09:48:45pm, Kai Fuller wrote: > > <snip> > >I think we can do without cricket. > > Sorry, I don't understand. No-one can live without cricket. :-) > > -- > David. (GPLRank handicap: +39.92) > "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, > really." > (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

Little bastards keep me up all night sometimes!

LOL! Thanks, Kevin. I think the car that was involved in the incident was a Lotus 64, the same TYPE as driven by Andretti at Indy in 1969. If there was a Lotus Type 63 then it must've been designed for a class other than F1 or Indy. -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- Kevin Gavitt <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2Jo65.15396$[email hidden]... > > "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Uno momento, por favour! > > Are we talking about the Lotus Type 63 or the Lotus Type 64? > > > > We're talking the bad reporting that led to a claim the car that was > involved in the crash at Goodwood was a 49 that Andretti drove. > > Since such is not the case who the hell knows WHAT we're talking about here. > > Andretti did, of course, drive a 49 in a Grand Prix. But the car that was > involved in the accident at Goodwood was a variant of the car Andretti > drove, and wrecked in practice, at Indy. > > Since the initial reporting is, shall we say, fucked, we arn't ever going to > have a logical conversation about it. > > Which was part of the point that started this whole thread :) > >

"Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> LOL! > > Thanks, Kevin. > I think the car that was involved in the incident was a Lotus 64, the same > TYPE as driven by Andretti at Indy in 1969. > > If there was a Lotus Type 63 then it must've been designed for a class

other > than F1 or Indy. > AH! I see. Nope, I've got you this time. You're wrong :) I'm looking at a picture of a 63 right now, which was the car that crashed at Goodwood, and is the F1 variant of the type 64 Indy car. The F1 version precedes the Indy car version because development of it started roughly just after the turbine car of '68. When the turbine was banned from Indy the 63 changed into the 64 for the oval, since it was designed from the outset to take a conventional ICE.

"Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > That was exactly what Mr. Moss thought, David. :-) Actually we dent them quite a bit over here. Even write them off on occasion. It happens, and we colonials have come to accept that as a part of racing and now race them hard. It's when someone ELSE dents your car that the feathers get ruffled. So I guess vintage racing here, compared to England, would be similar to racing the AI offline in GPL compared to racing real people online. Online, because of warp and lag, you don't race quite as close, and not quite as agressively, as you would against the AI, or a real person on a LAN.

Bruce, I didn't detect any jingoism in Kevin's post at all. He clearly was saying that it was okay to ding your own car (i.e., crash it) but it was not okay to have someone (regardless of race, creed, color, nationality, political affiliation, IQ, shoesize, GPLRank ....) crash into you. Dave Ewing Bruce Kennewell wrote:

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> Odd....so you're saying that it's okay for Americans to ding their own cars > but if a foreigner races with you and dings a car he's a meany? > > > > Kevin Gavitt <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:BoJ65.18159$[email hidden]... > > > > It's when someone ELSE dents your car that the feathers get ruffled. > ***************************************************** > David A. Ewing > Xilinx Boulder [email hidden] > ***************************************************** >

On Thu 29 Jun 2000 11:21:07pm, Martin D. Pay wrote: <snip> >Of course if America does take up cricket they'll probably beat >us at it... just like everyone else does ATM... :( Latest from Lord's - England 50/5... -- David. (GPLRank handicap: +39.92) "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (David Buttery) writes:

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>On Wed 28 Jun 2000 09:48:45pm, Kai Fuller wrote: > ><snip> >>I think we can do without cricket. > >Sorry, I don't understand. No-one can live without cricket. :-) >

I dunno...I'm doing just FINE...<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +70.45 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

I think that the entire WORLD can do without cricket, Kai! :-) -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- Kai Fuller <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:owt65.242484$[email hidden]... > I don't think that's why Americans aren't getting into cricket... Perhaps > it's that the grass has to be less than 2 inches... > > Perhaps it's the same reason Formula 1 Soccer, Rugby and Australian Rules > futbol hasn't caught on over here... We already have enough sports as it is. > Baseball, Football, Basketball, Hockey, Tennis, Golf, American racing, > Boxing, Olympic sports, all the new extreme sports, more and more soccer. I > think we can do without cricket. > > David Buttery <[email hidden]> wrote in > message news:[email hidden]... > > On Tue 27 Jun 2000 01:02:59pm, Bruce Kennewell wrote: > > > > >Yes...Australia, South Africa, New Zealand, to name but three. > > > > Ah, but did they actually *do* it? :-) > > > > >However, Vintage or Historic Racing in the USA is run in a somewhat > > >different manner which, in SOME cases, emasculates the performance > > >of the drivers. (Note that I say "SOME" cases.....not all.) The > > >attitude is, however, generally towards the "parade" or > > >"demonstration" type of racing rather than full-on competition. > > <snip> > > > > Presumably that's at least in part a result of the fear of crippling > > litigation. (On a similar point, I remember reading somewhere that the > > development of cricket in some parts of the US was being stymied by > > local parks' insistence that the grass should be at least 2 inches > > long, to avoid people slipping over and suing them.) > > > > -- > > David. (GPLRank handicap: +39.92) > > "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, > > really." > > (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh) > >

That was exactly what Mr. Moss thought, David. :-) -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- David Buttery <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Wed 28 Jun 2000 04:23:02pm, Kevin Gavitt wrote: > > >Ah well, yes, we do, in fact, tend to look ascance at actually rubbing > >fenders in vintage cars. > > But they're vintage *racing* cars! If you're going to race them, you > can't expect never to dent the damn things. > > -- > David. (GPLRank handicap: +39.92) > "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, > really." > (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

> ><snip> > >>I think we can do without cricket. > > > >Sorry, I don't understand. No-one can live without cricket. :-) Little bastards keep me up all night sometimes!

<snip> Latest from Lord's - England 50/5... -- David. (GPLRank handicap: +39.92) "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

Aah! Okay on that. Strange, but the book by Andrew Ferguson ("Team Lotus - The Indianapolis Years") makes no mention of the Type 63.......or if it does then it's buried deep within a short phrase somewhere! :-) Thanks for the clarification. -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- Kevin Gavitt <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ijJ65.18156$[email hidden]... > > "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > LOL! > > > > Thanks, Kevin. > > I think the car that was involved in the incident was a Lotus 64, the same > > TYPE as driven by Andretti at Indy in 1969. > > > > If there was a Lotus Type 63 then it must've been designed for a class > other > > than F1 or Indy. > > > > AH! I see. Nope, I've got you this time. You're wrong :) > > I'm looking at a picture of a 63 right now, which was the car that crashed > at Goodwood, and is the F1 variant of the type 64 Indy car. > > The F1 version precedes the Indy car version because development of it > started roughly just after the turbine car of '68. When the turbine was > banned from Indy the 63 changed into the 64 for the oval, since it was > designed from the outset to take a conventional ICE. > >

Odd....so you're saying that it's okay for Americans to ding their own cars but if a foreigner races with you and dings a car he's a meany? A bit like the childhood situation of "Get outta MY sandpit.....I don't wanna play with YOU anymore!" -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- Kevin Gavitt <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:BoJ65.18159$[email hidden]... > > "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > That was exactly what Mr. Moss thought, David. :-) > > Actually we dent them quite a bit over here. Even write them off on > occasion. It happens, and we colonials have come to accept that as a part > of racing and now race them hard. > > It's when someone ELSE dents your car that the feathers get ruffled. > > So I guess vintage racing here, compared to England, would be similar to > racing the AI offline in GPL compared to racing real people online. > > Online, because of warp and lag, you don't race quite as close, and not > quite as agressively, as you would against the AI, or a real person on a > LAN. > >

Even later from Lords. West Indies 49 all out <G> MS "David Buttery" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Thu 29 Jun 2000 11:21:07pm, Martin D. Pay wrote: > > <snip> > >Of course if America does take up cricket they'll probably beat > >us at it... just like everyone else does ATM... :( > > Latest from Lord's - England 50/5... > > -- > David. (GPLRank handicap: +39.92) > "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, > really." > (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

I played the blasted game from the time that I could hold a bat until the time that I was allowed to actually CHOOSE what I wanted to do. I immediately opted out of cricket!! I found it BORING.....upper case, 72-point print! But that's just me....obviously there are those who adore the game, which is perfectly fine. I just get fed up when cricket pushes motor-racing to a 3:00 AM television time-slot! :-) -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- Martin D. Pay <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:41:47 +1000, "Bruce Kennewell" > <[email hidden]> mangled uncounted electrons thus: > > >I think that the entire WORLD can do without cricket, Kai! :-) > > Thou speakest heresy!!! > > Martin D. Pay > Are we sufficiently off-topic yet? ^_^

cricket?...way, WAY to violent for me....... sudesh "Martin D. Pay" wrote:

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> > On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:41:47 +1000, "Bruce Kennewell" > <[email hidden]> mangled uncounted electrons thus: > > >I think that the entire WORLD can do without cricket, Kai! :-) > > Thou speakest heresy!!! > > Martin D. Pay > Are we sufficiently off-topic yet? ^_^

On Fri 30 Jun 2000 07:38:53pm, m.seery wrote: >Even later from Lords. > >West Indies 49 all out <G><snip> 49? It was 54 when I looked - have they been docked runs? -- David. (GPLRank handicap: +30.02) "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

Oops. That was 49 with one to go.......... MS "David Buttery" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Fri 30 Jun 2000 07:38:53pm, m.seery wrote: > > >Even later from Lords. > > > >West Indies 49 all out <G> > <snip> > > 49? It was 54 when I looked - have they been docked runs? > > -- > David. (GPLRank handicap: +30.02) > "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, > really." > (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

I can understand that. There were two years that were a bit on the dark side for Lotus at Indy. '64 wasn't *directly* Chapman's fault. He did make the tire choice though. '69 was Chapman's fault. The front hub carriers on the cars weren't up to the loads imposed by 4WD. Both Andretti and Rindt had a front wheel come off at speed. I remember an interview with A.J. Foyt where he said the single greatest bit of driving he ever saw was Rindt taking what little control he had over his car and diliberately putting it into the wall in as controlled a manner as possible. Havn't you even seen footage of Andretti's crash? The one that leaves him sitting in the middle of the track, in just his seat, and NOTHING left of the car? That was the 64. They were banned from the track before qualifying and thus many histories skip them. If you've got, or can get hold of, a copy of Setright's Grand Prix 1906-1972 you'll find a brief treatment of it. The autobiography that Andretti wrote shortly after his Indy win in his short track car deals with it, as do many Andretti bios.

I think what is necessary here, David, is to read the race report that led to the chap lodge the complaint about Sir Stirling. It was a "racing incident", not a deliberate attempt by Moss to play Destruction Derby with the so-called "opposition". Moss was racing. -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- David Ewing <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Bruce, > > I didn't detect any jingoism in Kevin's post at all. He clearly was saying > that it was okay to ding your own car (i.e., crash it) but it was not okay to > have someone (regardless of race, creed, color, nationality, political > affiliation, IQ, shoesize, GPLRank ....) crash into you. > > Dave Ewing > > Bruce Kennewell wrote: > > > Odd....so you're saying that it's okay for Americans to ding their own cars > > but if a foreigner races with you and dings a car he's a meany? > > > > > > > > Kevin Gavitt <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:BoJ65.18159$[email hidden]... > > > > > > It's when someone ELSE dents your car that the feathers get ruffled. > > > ***************************************************** > > David A. Ewing > > Xilinx Boulder [email hidden] > > ***************************************************** > > >

Thanks for the information, Kevin. The "Team Lotus" book certainly covers the 1969 period in depth, (including the STP and the Ford involvements) and the Type 64, but, as I mentioned, there is no reference to the Type 63 whatsoever. (I double-checked!) -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- > > Aah! Okay on that. Strange, but the book by Andrew Ferguson ("Team > Lotus - > > The Indianapolis Years") makes no mention of the Type 63.......or if it > does > > then it's buried deep within a short phrase somewhere! :-) > > Thanks for the clarification. > I can understand that. There were two years that were a bit on the dark side > for Lotus at Indy. > '64 wasn't *directly* Chapman's fault. He did make the tire choice though. > '69 was Chapman's fault. The front hub carriers on the cars weren't up to > the loads imposed by 4WD. Both Andretti and Rindt had a front wheel come off > at speed. > I remember an interview with A.J. Foyt where he said the single greatest bit > of driving he ever saw was Rindt taking what little control he had over his > car and diliberately putting it into the wall in as controlled a manner as > possible. > Havn't you even seen footage of Andretti's crash? The one that leaves him > sitting in the middle of the track, in just his seat, and NOTHING left of > the car? That was the 64. > They were banned from the track before qualifying and thus many histories > skip them. > If you've got, or can get hold of, a copy of Setright's Grand Prix 1906-1972 > you'll find a brief treatment of it. The autobiography that Andretti wrote > shortly after his Indy win in his short track car deals with it, as do many > Andretti bios.

Wish I had a scanner. I'd zap you couple of B&W pics. As I recall, I can't come up with a source at the moment, all my old R&Ts and half my books are in boxes at the moment, it only ran at Silverstone. Rindt drove it in practice and refused to have anything more to do with it. I belive, but don't quote me on this one, that Ken Miles actually drove it in the race and retired. The car was never seen on a racetrack again as all development switched to the 72 in order to keep Rindt happy.

Well, if you CAN ever get some scans done...even some OCR of the text, I'd be most grateful. In the meantime I'll see if I can dig something up from other sources. -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- Kevin Gavitt <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:u_N75.30505$[email hidden]... > > "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Thanks for the information, Kevin. > > The "Team Lotus" book certainly covers the 1969 period in depth, > (including > > the STP and the Ford involvements) and the Type 64, but, as I mentioned, > > there is no reference to the Type 63 whatsoever. (I double-checked!) > > > > > > -- > > Regards, > > Bruce Kennewell, > > Canberra, Australia. > > --------------------------- > > Wish I had a scanner. I'd zap you couple of B&W pics. As I recall, I can't > come up with a source at the moment, all my old R&Ts and half my books are > in boxes at the moment, it only ran at Silverstone. Rindt drove it in > practice and refused to have anything more to do with it. I belive, but > don't quote me on this one, that Ken Miles actually drove it in the race and > retired. > > The car was never seen on a racetrack again as all development switched to > the 72 in order to keep Rindt happy. > >