Try increasing the damping in the core.ini. That seems to have a big impact
on how the grass feels, as well as tire grip and some other effects. Don't
ask me why. It's weird.
This is what I'm currently using on my Act Labs wheel:
allow_force_feedback = 1 ; Use FF if device has it
force_feedback_damping = 300.000000 ; force feedback damping
coefficient
force_feedback_latency = 0.100000 ; force feedback latency (secs)
max_steering_torque = 450.000000 ; steering torque in N*in giving
max device force
****************************************************************************
> Marc Collins
> Computers will never equal humans until they make mistakes and
> blame them on other computers.
****************************************************************************
return your wheel.
Slot
> It has nothing to do with the damping settings...I can feel the grass just
> fine when I am turning the wheel. The effects are plenty strong when you
> adjust everything correctly. When the car is going straight, there is zero
giving
feels
> > and
> > > looks nice, has shifter and paddles (and even a set of redundant
> > > pedal/paddles under the shifter paddles) and buttons to use as shifter
> > > buttons, look left/right or whatever you want. Overall, not bad, except
> > for
> > > one colossal problem:
> > > Subtle FFB only works if you are turning the wheel!! With my Saitek/MS
> > > wheel, I could feel the grass at a GPL track as I drove over it--a nice
> > > subtle vibration that let you know you were on a rougher surface, but
> not
> > > wild canned stupidity like the grass in N3. Any way, these sorts of
> > subtle
> > > lighter forces were readily apparent regardless of what you were doing.
> > > With the Ferrari wheel, they can only be felt when you are turning the
> > > wheel--and they are there appropriately and feel fine. If I just drive
> > > straight across the same grass, there is no FFB whatsoever from the
> > surface.
> > > Of course, the grass is the easiest and fastest way to test this, but it
> > is
> > > happening all over the track whenever you are driving straight. Landing
> > > after a jump (at Mosport, e.g.) is a crucial place that this effect can
words,
> > is
> > > it a flaw of the IForce drivers or is it some hardware specific boner
> that
> > > Guillemot has committed? It is either specific to IForce, because the
> MS
> > > wheels don't have this problem, or it is Guillemot alone. If they could
> > > increase the steering resolution (double it) and fix this major
> oversight,
> > > the wheel would be worth double what they are charging....the rest of it
> > is
> > > that good.
> > > Marc.
> > > --
****************************************************************************
> > > Marc Collins
> > > Computers will never equal humans until they make mistakes and
> > > blame them on other computers.
****************************************************************************
Quoted text (20 lines)
> FFB. > Marc. > > Try increasing the damping in the core.ini. That seems to have a big > impact > > on how the grass feels, as well as tire grip and some other effects. > Don't > > ask me why. It's weird. > > This is what I'm currently using on my Act Labs wheel: > > allow_force_feedback = 1 ; Use FF if device has it > > force_feedback_damping = 300.000000 ; force feedback damping > > coefficient > > force_feedback_latency = 0.100000 ; force feedback latency (secs) > > max_steering_torque = 450.000000 ; steering torque in N*inQuoted text (14 lines)
> > max device force > > > Hi all, > > > After you get over the QC problems and the low resolution steering and > the > > > backward drivers (you need to set spring forces to 0 to get full FFB) > and > > > the fact that you can't find the blasted wheel in any stores, the > Ferrari > > > wheel ain't bad. The pedal resolution is excellent, it is sturdy,Quoted text (7 lines)
> > > throw you for a loop (I don't really care about driving across grass, > you > > > know). I don't even want to try to distract myself while going around > > > various courses attempting to figure out what is missing....but is > > annoying. > > > Do ACT Labs and Logitech wheels have this problem, too? In otherI know exactly what Marc means. Unless you turn the damping right up, going
in a straight line on the grass - even slowly - has no FF. Even slightly
turn the wheel and the FF kicks in!
Try it at monza.
Iain
GTX_SlotCar <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:Z2DA4.1854$[email hidden]...
just
> > fine when I am turning the wheel. The effects are plenty strong whenyou
(secs)
and
> > the
> > > > backward drivers (you need to set spring forces to 0 to get fullFFB)
shifter
but
> > not
> > > > wild canned stupidity like the grass in N3. Any way, these sorts of
> > > subtle
> > > > lighter forces were readily apparent regardless of what you were
> doing.
> > > > With the Ferrari wheel, they can only be felt when you are turningthe
> > > > wheel--and they are there appropriately and feel fine. If I just
> drive
> > > > straight across the same grass, there is no FFB whatsoever from the
> > > surface.
> > > > Of course, the grass is the easiest and fastest way to test this,but
grass,
> > you
> > > > know). I don't even want to try to distract myself while goingaround
boner
> > that
> > > > Guillemot has committed? It is either specific to IForce, becausethe
> > MS
> > > > wheels don't have this problem, or it is Guillemot alone. If they
> could
> > > > increase the steering resolution (double it) and fix this major
> > oversight,
> > > > the wheel would be worth double what they are charging....the restof
****************************************************************************
****************************************************************************
Quoted text (8 lines)
> return your wheel. > > Slot > > > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:v1CA4.75194$[email hidden]... > > It has nothing to do with the damping settings...I can feel the grassQuoted text (20 lines)
> > adjust everything correctly. When the car is going straight, there is > zero > > FFB. > > > > Marc. > > > > "Aubrey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:entXjgHk$GA.251@cpmsnbbsa05... > > > Try increasing the damping in the core.ini. That seems to have a big > > impact > > > on how the grass feels, as well as tire grip and some other effects. > > Don't > > > ask me why. It's weird. > > > > > > This is what I'm currently using on my Act Labs wheel: > > > > > > allow_force_feedback = 1 ; Use FF if device has it > > > force_feedback_damping = 300.000000 ; force feedback damping > > > coefficient > > > force_feedback_latency = 0.100000 ; force feedback latencyQuoted text (10 lines)
> > > max_steering_torque = 450.000000 ; steering torque in N*in > giving > > > max device force > > > > > > > > > Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:GkyA4.45912$[email hidden]... > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > After you get over the QC problems and the low resolution steeringQuoted text (8 lines)
> > and > > > > the fact that you can't find the blasted wheel in any stores, the > > Ferrari > > > > wheel ain't bad. The pedal resolution is excellent, it is sturdy, > feels > > > and > > > > looks nice, has shifter and paddles (and even a set of redundant > > > > pedal/paddles under the shifter paddles) and buttons to use asQuoted text (10 lines)
> > > > buttons, look left/right or whatever you want. Overall, not bad, > except > > > for > > > > one colossal problem: > > > > > > > > Subtle FFB only works if you are turning the wheel!! With my > Saitek/MS > > > > wheel, I could feel the grass at a GPL track as I drove over it--a > nice > > > > subtle vibration that let you know you were on a rougher surface,Quoted text (7 lines)
> it > > > is > > > > happening all over the track whenever you are driving straight. > Landing > > > > after a jump (at Mosport, e.g.) is a crucial place that this effect > can > > > > throw you for a loop (I don't really care about driving acrossQuoted text (7 lines)
> > > > various courses attempting to figure out what is missing....but is > > > annoying. > > > > > > > > Do ACT Labs and Logitech wheels have this problem, too? In other > words, > > > is > > > > it a flaw of the IForce drivers or is it some hardware specificQuoted text (11 lines)
> it > > > is > > > > that good. > > > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > >Quoted text (9 lines)
> > > > Marc Collins > > > > [email hidden] > > > > > > > > Computers will never equal humans until they make mistakes and > > > > blame them on other computers. > > > > > > > > > >Quoted text (9 lines)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >It has nothing to do with the damping settings...I can feel the grass just
fine when I am turning the wheel. The effects are plenty strong when you
adjust everything correctly. When the car is going straight, there is zero
FFB.
Marc.
> Try increasing the damping in the core.ini. That seems to have a big impact
> on how the grass feels, as well as tire grip and some other effects. Don't
the
> > backward drivers (you need to set spring forces to 0 to get full FFB) and
> > the fact that you can't find the blasted wheel in any stores, the Ferrari
not
you
that
> > Guillemot has committed? It is either specific to IForce, because the MS
> > wheels don't have this problem, or it is Guillemot alone. If they could
> > increase the steering resolution (double it) and fix this major oversight,
****************************************************************************
> > Marc Collins
> > Computers will never equal humans until they make mistakes and
> > blame them on other computers.
****************************************************************************
Quoted text (17 lines)
> ask me why. It's weird. > This is what I'm currently using on my Act Labs wheel: > allow_force_feedback = 1 ; Use FF if device has it > force_feedback_damping = 300.000000 ; force feedback damping > coefficient > force_feedback_latency = 0.100000 ; force feedback latency (secs) > max_steering_torque = 450.000000 ; steering torque in N*in giving > max device force > > Hi all, > > After you get over the QC problems and the low resolution steering andQuoted text (11 lines)
> > wheel ain't bad. The pedal resolution is excellent, it is sturdy, feels > and > > looks nice, has shifter and paddles (and even a set of redundant > > pedal/paddles under the shifter paddles) and buttons to use as shifter > > buttons, look left/right or whatever you want. Overall, not bad, except > for > > one colossal problem: > > Subtle FFB only works if you are turning the wheel!! With my Saitek/MS > > wheel, I could feel the grass at a GPL track as I drove over it--a nice > > subtle vibration that let you know you were on a rougher surface, butQuoted text (12 lines)
> > wild canned stupidity like the grass in N3. Any way, these sorts of > subtle > > lighter forces were readily apparent regardless of what you were doing. > > With the Ferrari wheel, they can only be felt when you are turning the > > wheel--and they are there appropriately and feel fine. If I just drive > > straight across the same grass, there is no FFB whatsoever from the > surface. > > Of course, the grass is the easiest and fastest way to test this, but it > is > > happening all over the track whenever you are driving straight. Landing > > after a jump (at Mosport, e.g.) is a crucial place that this effect can > > throw you for a loop (I don't really care about driving across grass,Quoted text (7 lines)
> > know). I don't even want to try to distract myself while going around > > various courses attempting to figure out what is missing....but is > annoying. > > Do ACT Labs and Logitech wheels have this problem, too? In other words, > is > > it a flaw of the IForce drivers or is it some hardware specific bonerQuoted text (7 lines)
> > the wheel would be worth double what they are charging....the rest of it > is > > that good. > > Marc. > > --The issue--please people-- is whether this is a Ferrari wheel-only
phenomenon. I haven't used an ActLabs wheel at all and I've only tinkered
with a Logitech. I only want to know whether this effects all IForce wheels
(in which case I'll avoid them like the plague) or just Guillemot's effort.
I don't need advice about whether I should return my (second) Ferrari wheel.
If Logitech had decent pedals and a shifter, only a moron would buy any
other wheel--unless it is plagued by the dead FFB in a straight-line
syndrome. If it is, then everyone who complains about the MS-based wheels
better do a bit more research. No, they are not as "smooth" as the
Logitech, but they at least produce the correct forces at the appropriate
points and times. I can make up my own mind about the trade-offs in one
wheel versus another.
Marc.
> I know exactly what Marc means. Unless you turn the damping right up, going
big
of
the
effect
****************************************************************************
> > > > > Marc Collins
> > > > > Computers will never equal humans until they make mistakes and
> > > > > blame them on other computers.
****************************************************************************
Quoted text (27 lines)
> in a straight line on the grass - even slowly - has no FF. Even slightly > turn the wheel and the FF kicks in! > Try it at monza. > Iain > > return your wheel. > > Slot > > > It has nothing to do with the damping settings...I can feel the grass > just > > > fine when I am turning the wheel. The effects are plenty strong when > you > > > adjust everything correctly. When the car is going straight, there is > > zero > > > FFB. > > > Marc. > > > > Try increasing the damping in the core.ini. That seems to have aQuoted text (48 lines)
> > > impact > > > > on how the grass feels, as well as tire grip and some other effects. > > > Don't > > > > ask me why. It's weird. > > > > This is what I'm currently using on my Act Labs wheel: > > > > allow_force_feedback = 1 ; Use FF if device has it > > > > force_feedback_damping = 300.000000 ; force feedback damping > > > > coefficient > > > > force_feedback_latency = 0.100000 ; force feedback latency > (secs) > > > > max_steering_torque = 450.000000 ; steering torque in N*in > > giving > > > > max device force > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > After you get over the QC problems and the low resolution steering > and > > > the > > > > > backward drivers (you need to set spring forces to 0 to get full > FFB) > > > and > > > > > the fact that you can't find the blasted wheel in any stores, the > > > Ferrari > > > > > wheel ain't bad. The pedal resolution is excellent, it is sturdy, > > feels > > > > and > > > > > looks nice, has shifter and paddles (and even a set of redundant > > > > > pedal/paddles under the shifter paddles) and buttons to use as > shifter > > > > > buttons, look left/right or whatever you want. Overall, not bad, > > except > > > > for > > > > > one colossal problem: > > > > > Subtle FFB only works if you are turning the wheel!! With my > > Saitek/MS > > > > > wheel, I could feel the grass at a GPL track as I drove over it--a > > nice > > > > > subtle vibration that let you know you were on a rougher surface, > but > > > not > > > > > wild canned stupidity like the grass in N3. Any way, these sortsQuoted text (8 lines)
> > > > subtle > > > > > lighter forces were readily apparent regardless of what you were > > doing. > > > > > With the Ferrari wheel, they can only be felt when you are turning > the > > > > > wheel--and they are there appropriately and feel fine. If I just > > drive > > > > > straight across the same grass, there is no FFB whatsoever fromQuoted text (8 lines)
> > > > surface. > > > > > Of course, the grass is the easiest and fastest way to test this, > but > > it > > > > is > > > > > happening all over the track whenever you are driving straight. > > Landing > > > > > after a jump (at Mosport, e.g.) is a crucial place that thisQuoted text (31 lines)
> > can > > > > > throw you for a loop (I don't really care about driving across > grass, > > > you > > > > > know). I don't even want to try to distract myself while going > around > > > > > various courses attempting to figure out what is missing....but is > > > > annoying. > > > > > Do ACT Labs and Logitech wheels have this problem, too? In other > > words, > > > > is > > > > > it a flaw of the IForce drivers or is it some hardware specific > boner > > > that > > > > > Guillemot has committed? It is either specific to IForce, because > the > > > MS > > > > > wheels don't have this problem, or it is Guillemot alone. If they > > could > > > > > increase the steering resolution (double it) and fix this major > > > oversight, > > > > > the wheel would be worth double what they are charging....the rest > of > > it > > > > is > > > > > that good. > > > > > Marc. > > > > > --The issue--please people-- is whether this is a Ferrari wheel-only
phenomenon. I haven't used an ActLabs wheel at all and I've only tinkered
with a Logitech. I only want to know whether this effects all IForce wheels
(in which case I'll avoid them like the plague) or just Guillemot's effort.
I don't need advice about whether I should return my (second) Ferrari wheel.
If Logitech had decent pedals and a shifter, only a moron would buy any
other wheel--unless it is plagued by the dead FFB in a straight-line
syndrome. If it is, then everyone who complains about the MS-based wheels
better do a bit more research. No, they are not as "smooth" as the
Logitech, but they at least produce the correct forces at the appropriate
points and times. I can make up my own mind about the trade-offs in one
wheel versus another.
Marc.
"Iain Mackenzie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:_4HA4.74$[email hidden]...
> I know exactly what Marc means. Unless you turn the damping right up,going
big
of
the
effect
****************************************************************************
****************************************************************************
Quoted text (26 lines)
> in a straight line on the grass - even slowly - has no FF. Even slightly > turn the wheel and the FF kicks in! > Try it at monza. > Iain > GTX_SlotCar <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Z2DA4.1854$[email hidden]... > > return your wheel. > > > > Slot > > > > > > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:v1CA4.75194$[email hidden]... > > > It has nothing to do with the damping settings...I can feel the grass > just > > > fine when I am turning the wheel. The effects are plenty strong when > you > > > adjust everything correctly. When the car is going straight, there is > > zero > > > FFB. > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > "Aubrey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:entXjgHk$GA.251@cpmsnbbsa05... > > > > Try increasing the damping in the core.ini. That seems to have aQuoted text (48 lines)
> > > impact > > > > on how the grass feels, as well as tire grip and some other effects. > > > Don't > > > > ask me why. It's weird. > > > > > > > > This is what I'm currently using on my Act Labs wheel: > > > > > > > > allow_force_feedback = 1 ; Use FF if device has it > > > > force_feedback_damping = 300.000000 ; force feedback damping > > > > coefficient > > > > force_feedback_latency = 0.100000 ; force feedback latency > (secs) > > > > max_steering_torque = 450.000000 ; steering torque in N*in > > giving > > > > max device force > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:GkyA4.45912$[email hidden]... > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > > After you get over the QC problems and the low resolution steering > and > > > the > > > > > backward drivers (you need to set spring forces to 0 to get full > FFB) > > > and > > > > > the fact that you can't find the blasted wheel in any stores, the > > > Ferrari > > > > > wheel ain't bad. The pedal resolution is excellent, it is sturdy, > > feels > > > > and > > > > > looks nice, has shifter and paddles (and even a set of redundant > > > > > pedal/paddles under the shifter paddles) and buttons to use as > shifter > > > > > buttons, look left/right or whatever you want. Overall, not bad, > > except > > > > for > > > > > one colossal problem: > > > > > > > > > > Subtle FFB only works if you are turning the wheel!! With my > > Saitek/MS > > > > > wheel, I could feel the grass at a GPL track as I drove over it--a > > nice > > > > > subtle vibration that let you know you were on a rougher surface, > but > > > not > > > > > wild canned stupidity like the grass in N3. Any way, these sortsQuoted text (8 lines)
> > > > subtle > > > > > lighter forces were readily apparent regardless of what you were > > doing. > > > > > With the Ferrari wheel, they can only be felt when you are turning > the > > > > > wheel--and they are there appropriately and feel fine. If I just > > drive > > > > > straight across the same grass, there is no FFB whatsoever fromQuoted text (8 lines)
> > > > surface. > > > > > Of course, the grass is the easiest and fastest way to test this, > but > > it > > > > is > > > > > happening all over the track whenever you are driving straight. > > Landing > > > > > after a jump (at Mosport, e.g.) is a crucial place that thisQuoted text (36 lines)
> > can > > > > > throw you for a loop (I don't really care about driving across > grass, > > > you > > > > > know). I don't even want to try to distract myself while going > around > > > > > various courses attempting to figure out what is missing....but is > > > > annoying. > > > > > > > > > > Do ACT Labs and Logitech wheels have this problem, too? In other > > words, > > > > is > > > > > it a flaw of the IForce drivers or is it some hardware specific > boner > > > that > > > > > Guillemot has committed? It is either specific to IForce, because > the > > > MS > > > > > wheels don't have this problem, or it is Guillemot alone. If they > > could > > > > > increase the steering resolution (double it) and fix this major > > > oversight, > > > > > the wheel would be worth double what they are charging....the rest > of > > it > > > > is > > > > > that good. > > > > > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Quoted text (10 lines)
> > > > > Marc Collins > > > > > [email hidden] > > > > > > > > > > Computers will never equal humans until they make mistakes and > > > > > blame them on other computers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Quoted text (11 lines)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I don't know what else to say. I feel the feedback on the grass in a
straight line at Monza (and anywhere else). IMO, the Ferrari wheel is a
close copy (inside) of the Act Labs wheel (since Act came out first). Geez,
I don't want to get into legal trouble for saying this, so let me state
again. In My Opinion the similarities are a remarkable, um, coincidence.
The layouts are similar. The Act uses a slightly more powerful 7 pole motor,
Ferrari a 5 pole motor. The Act has wider pullies and belts with coarser
teeth and feels to be about 3 lbs heavier, though I can't figure out where
the weight comes from. The Act uses better bearings on the shaft, but also
has more drag, probably caused by the larger belts.
I-Force is most likely what you're feeling unless your second Ferrari wheel
is also defective, and based on what you're saying, it's either defective or
your hands are numb. All the I-Force wheels (in good working order) should
give similar interpretations of I-Force commands. As far as subtle ff and
turning the wheel goes, it's an electo-machanical thing. When the armature
is rotating you also feel the pull of the magnets as the arm rotates through
the magnetic fields, and you induce motion (assist the feedback). The
stronger the motor, the greater the increase in subtle ff, counteracted, of
course, by drag. So all things being equal, the Logitech should have a very
small increase in subtle ff as the wheel is rotated, the Ferrari a little
more, and the Act even more (except the added drag on the Act makes it less
noticable).
I guess the answer is that it's not a "Ferrari wheel-only phenomenon". I
also doubt that it's an I-Force phenomenon. It's more likely physical
phenomenon. I think the only thing you would gain from buying the Act Labs
wheel is a more sympathic tech support. I have nothing against Logitech
products. I'm typing on a Logi cordless now, have their cordless mouse, too.
My kids have their Internet keyboard and Mouseman+. In fact, we have several
Logi products in the house. The LWFF has definate merits. I realize that
people buy products for their own reasons, not mine. I have to assume that
when you make comments like "only a moron would buy...", it's done out of
frustration. I got help on ras to hookup my CH pedals with wheels. Tried it
for about 3 days and thought they felt very awkward. Yet look at all the
people who are happy with the setup. Maybe that or a MSFF is just the thing
for you. There's plenty of help on the net for building a stick shifter,
too. As far as returning your Ferrari wheel goes, all I meant is that if
it's not defective there are only 2 alternatives. Return it, or keep it and
live with it, but you don't seem very happy doing that.
Slot
"Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:8nNA4.79532$[email hidden]...
> The issue--please people-- is whether this is a Ferrari wheel-only
> phenomenon. I haven't used an ActLabs wheel at all and I've only tinkered
> with a Logitech. I only want to know whether this effects all IForcewheels
> (in which case I'll avoid them like the plague) or just Guillemot'seffort.
>
> I don't need advice about whether I should return my (second) Ferrariwheel.
grass
> > just
> > > > fine when I am turning the wheel. The effects are plenty strongwhen
> > you
> > > > adjust everything correctly. When the car is going straight, thereis
effects.
steering
> > and
> > > > the
> > > > > > backward drivers (you need to set spring forces to 0 to get full
> > FFB)
> > > > and
> > > > > > the fact that you can't find the blasted wheel in any stores,the
> > > > Ferrari
> > > > > > wheel ain't bad. The pedal resolution is excellent, it issturdy,
> > > feels
> > > > > and
> > > > > > looks nice, has shifter and paddles (and even a set of redundant
> > > > > > pedal/paddles under the shifter paddles) and buttons to use as
> > shifter
> > > > > > buttons, look left/right or whatever you want. Overall, notbad,
it--a
> > > nice
> > > > > > subtle vibration that let you know you were on a roughersurface,
> > but
> > > > not
> > > > > > wild canned stupidity like the grass in N3. Any way, thesesorts
> of
> > > > > subtle
> > > > > > lighter forces were readily apparent regardless of what you were
> > > doing.
> > > > > > With the Ferrari wheel, they can only be felt when you areturning
> > the
> > > > > > wheel--and they are there appropriately and feel fine. If Ijust
> > > drive
> > > > > > straight across the same grass, there is no FFB whatsoever from
> the
> > > > > surface.
> > > > > > Of course, the grass is the easiest and fastest way to testthis,
is
> > > > > annoying.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Do ACT Labs and Logitech wheels have this problem, too? Inother
> > > words,
> > > > > is
> > > > > > it a flaw of the IForce drivers or is it some hardware specific
> > boner
> > > > that
> > > > > > Guillemot has committed? It is either specific to IForce,because
> > the
> > > > MS
> > > > > > wheels don't have this problem, or it is Guillemot alone. Ifthey
> > > could
> > > > > > increase the steering resolution (double it) and fix this major
> > > > oversight,
> > > > > > the wheel would be worth double what they are charging....therest
****************************************************************************
****************************************************************************
Quoted text (29 lines)
> If Logitech had decent pedals and a shifter, only a moron would buy any > other wheel--unless it is plagued by the dead FFB in a straight-line > syndrome. If it is, then everyone who complains about the MS-based wheels > better do a bit more research. No, they are not as "smooth" as the > Logitech, but they at least produce the correct forces at the appropriate > points and times. I can make up my own mind about the trade-offs in one > wheel versus another. > > Marc. > > > "Iain Mackenzie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:_4HA4.74$[email hidden]... > > I know exactly what Marc means. Unless you turn the damping right up, > going > > in a straight line on the grass - even slowly - has no FF. Even slightly > > turn the wheel and the FF kicks in! > > Try it at monza. > > Iain > > GTX_SlotCar <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:Z2DA4.1854$[email hidden]... > > > return your wheel. > > > > > > Slot > > > > > > > > > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:v1CA4.75194$[email hidden]... > > > > It has nothing to do with the damping settings...I can feel theQuoted text (11 lines)
> > > zero > > > > FFB. > > > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > "Aubrey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:entXjgHk$GA.251@cpmsnbbsa05... > > > > > Try increasing the damping in the core.ini. That seems to have a > big > > > > impact > > > > > on how the grass feels, as well as tire grip and some otherQuoted text (20 lines)
> > > > Don't > > > > > ask me why. It's weird. > > > > > > > > > > This is what I'm currently using on my Act Labs wheel: > > > > > > > > > > allow_force_feedback = 1 ; Use FF if device has it > > > > > force_feedback_damping = 300.000000 ; force feedback damping > > > > > coefficient > > > > > force_feedback_latency = 0.100000 ; force feedback latency > > (secs) > > > > > max_steering_torque = 450.000000 ; steering torque in N*in > > > giving > > > > > max device force > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:GkyA4.45912$[email hidden]... > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > > > > After you get over the QC problems and the low resolutionQuoted text (7 lines)
> > > except > > > > > for > > > > > > one colossal problem: > > > > > > > > > > > > Subtle FFB only works if you are turning the wheel!! With my > > > Saitek/MS > > > > > > wheel, I could feel the grass at a GPL track as I drove overQuoted text (14 lines)
> > but > > > it > > > > > is > > > > > > happening all over the track whenever you are driving straight. > > > Landing > > > > > > after a jump (at Mosport, e.g.) is a crucial place that this > effect > > > can > > > > > > throw you for a loop (I don't really care about driving across > > grass, > > > > you > > > > > > know). I don't even want to try to distract myself while going > > around > > > > > > various courses attempting to figure out what is missing....butQuoted text (14 lines)
> > of > > > it > > > > > is > > > > > > that good. > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Quoted text (11 lines)
> > > > > > Marc Collins > > > > > > [email hidden] > > > > > > > > > > > > Computers will never equal humans until they make mistakes and > > > > > > blame them on other computers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Quoted text (13 lines)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Remember Mats Lofkvist's tests with the IForce Studio utility? Did you try
those? Both my (and his) Ferrari's failed the forces when going straight
are anywhere near the forces when turning tests he so cleverly devised.
What are your results on the ActLabs and the Ferrari?
Marc.
"GTX_SlotCar" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:lbPA4.1939$[email hidden]...
> I don't know what else to say. I feel the feedback on the grass in a
> straight line at Monza (and anywhere else). IMO, the Ferrari wheel is a
> close copy (inside) of the Act Labs wheel (since Act came out first).Geez,
> I don't want to get into legal trouble for saying this, so let me state
> again. In My Opinion the similarities are a remarkable, um, coincidence.
> The layouts are similar. The Act uses a slightly more powerful 7 polemotor,
> Ferrari a 5 pole motor. The Act has wider pullies and belts with coarser
> teeth and feels to be about 3 lbs heavier, though I can't figure out where
> the weight comes from. The Act uses better bearings on the shaft, but also
> has more drag, probably caused by the larger belts.
> I-Force is most likely what you're feeling unless your second Ferrariwheel
> is also defective, and based on what you're saying, it's either defectiveor
> your hands are numb. All the I-Force wheels (in good working order) should
> give similar interpretations of I-Force commands. As far as subtle ff and
> turning the wheel goes, it's an electo-machanical thing. When the armature
> is rotating you also feel the pull of the magnets as the arm rotatesthrough
> the magnetic fields, and you induce motion (assist the feedback). The
> stronger the motor, the greater the increase in subtle ff, counteracted,of
> course, by drag. So all things being equal, the Logitech should have avery
> small increase in subtle ff as the wheel is rotated, the Ferrari a little
> more, and the Act even more (except the added drag on the Act makes itless
> noticable).
> I guess the answer is that it's not a "Ferrari wheel-only phenomenon". I
> also doubt that it's an I-Force phenomenon. It's more likely physical
> phenomenon. I think the only thing you would gain from buying the Act Labs
> wheel is a more sympathic tech support. I have nothing against Logitech
> products. I'm typing on a Logi cordless now, have their cordless mouse,too.
> My kids have their Internet keyboard and Mouseman+. In fact, we haveseveral
> Logi products in the house. The LWFF has definate merits. I realize that
> people buy products for their own reasons, not mine. I have to assume that
> when you make comments like "only a moron would buy...", it's done out of
> frustration. I got help on ras to hookup my CH pedals with wheels. Triedit
> for about 3 days and thought they felt very awkward. Yet look at all the
> people who are happy with the setup. Maybe that or a MSFF is just thething
> for you. There's plenty of help on the net for building a stick shifter,
> too. As far as returning your Ferrari wheel goes, all I meant is that if
> it's not defective there are only 2 alternatives. Return it, or keep itand
tinkered
wheels
> > better do a bit more research. No, they are not as "smooth" as the
> > Logitech, but they at least produce the correct forces at theappropriate
slightly
there
a
it
> > > > > > force_feedback_damping = 300.000000 ; force feedbackdamping
> > > > > > coefficient
> > > > > > force_feedback_latency = 0.100000 ; force feedbacklatency
> > > (secs)
> > > > > > max_steering_torque = 450.000000 ; steering torque inN*in
full
redundant
were
from
straight.
going
> > > around
> > > > > > > various courses attempting to figure out what ismissing....but
specific
major
****************************************************************************
****************************************************************************
Quoted text (10 lines)
> live with it, but you don't seem very happy doing that. > > Slot > > > > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8nNA4.79532$[email hidden]... > > The issue--please people-- is whether this is a Ferrari wheel-only > > phenomenon. I haven't used an ActLabs wheel at all and I've onlyQuoted text (10 lines)
> > with a Logitech. I only want to know whether this effects all IForce > wheels > > (in which case I'll avoid them like the plague) or just Guillemot's > effort. > > > > I don't need advice about whether I should return my (second) Ferrari > wheel. > > If Logitech had decent pedals and a shifter, only a moron would buy any > > other wheel--unless it is plagued by the dead FFB in a straight-line > > syndrome. If it is, then everyone who complains about the MS-basedQuoted text (11 lines)
> > points and times. I can make up my own mind about the trade-offs in one > > wheel versus another. > > > > Marc. > > > > > > "Iain Mackenzie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:_4HA4.74$[email hidden]... > > > I know exactly what Marc means. Unless you turn the damping right up, > > going > > > in a straight line on the grass - even slowly - has no FF. EvenQuoted text (19 lines)
> > > turn the wheel and the FF kicks in! > > > Try it at monza. > > > Iain > > > GTX_SlotCar <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:Z2DA4.1854$[email hidden]... > > > > return your wheel. > > > > > > > > Slot > > > > > > > > > > > > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:v1CA4.75194$[email hidden]... > > > > > It has nothing to do with the damping settings...I can feel the > grass > > > just > > > > > fine when I am turning the wheel. The effects are plenty strong > when > > > you > > > > > adjust everything correctly. When the car is going straight,Quoted text (9 lines)
> is > > > > zero > > > > > FFB. > > > > > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > > > "Aubrey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:entXjgHk$GA.251@cpmsnbbsa05... > > > > > > Try increasing the damping in the core.ini. That seems to haveQuoted text (10 lines)
> > big > > > > > impact > > > > > > on how the grass feels, as well as tire grip and some other > effects. > > > > > Don't > > > > > > ask me why. It's weird. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is what I'm currently using on my Act Labs wheel: > > > > > > > > > > > > allow_force_feedback = 1 ; Use FF if device hasQuoted text (13 lines)
> > > > giving > > > > > > max device force > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > news:GkyA4.45912$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After you get over the QC problems and the low resolution > steering > > > and > > > > > the > > > > > > > backward drivers (you need to set spring forces to 0 to getQuoted text (10 lines)
> > > FFB) > > > > > and > > > > > > > the fact that you can't find the blasted wheel in any stores, > the > > > > > Ferrari > > > > > > > wheel ain't bad. The pedal resolution is excellent, it is > sturdy, > > > > feels > > > > > > and > > > > > > > looks nice, has shifter and paddles (and even a set ofQuoted text (22 lines)
> > > > > > > pedal/paddles under the shifter paddles) and buttons to use as > > > shifter > > > > > > > buttons, look left/right or whatever you want. Overall, not > bad, > > > > except > > > > > > for > > > > > > > one colossal problem: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subtle FFB only works if you are turning the wheel!! With my > > > > Saitek/MS > > > > > > > wheel, I could feel the grass at a GPL track as I drove over > it--a > > > > nice > > > > > > > subtle vibration that let you know you were on a rougher > surface, > > > but > > > > > not > > > > > > > wild canned stupidity like the grass in N3. Any way, these > sorts > > of > > > > > > subtle > > > > > > > lighter forces were readily apparent regardless of what youQuoted text (8 lines)
> > > > doing. > > > > > > > With the Ferrari wheel, they can only be felt when you are > turning > > > the > > > > > > > wheel--and they are there appropriately and feel fine. If I > just > > > > drive > > > > > > > straight across the same grass, there is no FFB whatsoeverQuoted text (8 lines)
> > the > > > > > > surface. > > > > > > > Of course, the grass is the easiest and fastest way to test > this, > > > but > > > > it > > > > > > is > > > > > > > happening all over the track whenever you are drivingQuoted text (8 lines)
> > > > Landing > > > > > > > after a jump (at Mosport, e.g.) is a crucial place that this > > effect > > > > can > > > > > > > throw you for a loop (I don't really care about driving across > > > grass, > > > > > you > > > > > > > know). I don't even want to try to distract myself whileQuoted text (8 lines)
> is > > > > > > annoying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do ACT Labs and Logitech wheels have this problem, too? In > other > > > > words, > > > > > > is > > > > > > > it a flaw of the IForce drivers or is it some hardwareQuoted text (10 lines)
> > > boner > > > > > that > > > > > > > Guillemot has committed? It is either specific to IForce, > because > > > the > > > > > MS > > > > > > > wheels don't have this problem, or it is Guillemot alone. If > they > > > > could > > > > > > > increase the steering resolution (double it) and fix thisQuoted text (18 lines)
> > > > > oversight, > > > > > > > the wheel would be worth double what they are charging....the > rest > > > of > > > > it > > > > > > is > > > > > > > that good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Quoted text (12 lines)
> > > > > > > Marc Collins > > > > > > > [email hidden] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Computers will never equal humans until they make mistakes and > > > > > > > blame them on other computers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Quoted text (15 lines)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >OK, I've just tried the same thing with my old SC&T Ultimate Per4mer - and
this is a wheel that has SERIOUS FF effects - and the exact same effect
occurs. The forces going on to the grass and with one wheel on are very
strong, but going in a straight line with both wheels on the grass and the
wheel dead centre, there is NO FF at all.
It must be an IForce thing then - nothing to do with the Ferrari wheel.
Iain
Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:8VPA4.46665$[email hidden]...
> Remember Mats Lofkvist's tests with the IForce Studio utility? Did youtry
coincidence.
> > The layouts are similar. The Act uses a slightly more powerful 7 pole
> motor,
> > Ferrari a 5 pole motor. The Act has wider pullies and belts with coarser
> > teeth and feels to be about 3 lbs heavier, though I can't figure outwhere
> > the weight comes from. The Act uses better bearings on the shaft, butalso
> > has more drag, probably caused by the larger belts.
> > I-Force is most likely what you're feeling unless your second Ferrari
> wheel
> > is also defective, and based on what you're saying, it's eitherdefective
> or
> > your hands are numb. All the I-Force wheels (in good working order)should
> > give similar interpretations of I-Force commands. As far as subtle ffand
> > turning the wheel goes, it's an electo-machanical thing. When thearmature
little
> > more, and the Act even more (except the added drag on the Act makes it
> less
> > noticable).
> > I guess the answer is that it's not a "Ferrari wheel-only phenomenon". I
> > also doubt that it's an I-Force phenomenon. It's more likely physical
> > phenomenon. I think the only thing you would gain from buying the ActLabs
> > wheel is a more sympathic tech support. I have nothing against Logitech
> > products. I'm typing on a Logi cordless now, have their cordless mouse,
> too.
> > My kids have their Internet keyboard and Mouseman+. In fact, we have
> several
> > Logi products in the house. The LWFF has definate merits. I realizethat
> > people buy products for their own reasons, not mine. I have to assumethat
> > when you make comments like "only a moron would buy...", it's done outof
any
one
up,
have
has
stores,
as
my
across
If
> > they
> > > > > could
> > > > > > > > increase the steering resolution (double it) and fix this
> major
> > > > > > oversight,
> > > > > > > > the wheel would be worth double what they arecharging....the
****************************************************************************
> > > > > > > > Marc Collins
> > > > > > > > [email hidden]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Computers will never equal humans until they make mistakesand
****************************************************************************
Quoted text (14 lines)
> those? Both my (and his) Ferrari's failed the forces when going straight > are anywhere near the forces when turning tests he so cleverly devised. > What are your results on the ActLabs and the Ferrari? > > Marc. > > "GTX_SlotCar" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:lbPA4.1939$[email hidden]... > > I don't know what else to say. I feel the feedback on the grass in a > > straight line at Monza (and anywhere else). IMO, the Ferrari wheel is a > > close copy (inside) of the Act Labs wheel (since Act came out first). > Geez, > > I don't want to get into legal trouble for saying this, so let me state > > again. In My Opinion the similarities are a remarkable, um,Quoted text (8 lines)
> > is rotating you also feel the pull of the magnets as the arm rotates > through > > the magnetic fields, and you induce motion (assist the feedback). The > > stronger the motor, the greater the increase in subtle ff, counteracted, > of > > course, by drag. So all things being equal, the Logitech should have a > very > > small increase in subtle ff as the wheel is rotated, the Ferrari aQuoted text (28 lines)
> > frustration. I got help on ras to hookup my CH pedals with wheels. Tried > it > > for about 3 days and thought they felt very awkward. Yet look at all the > > people who are happy with the setup. Maybe that or a MSFF is just the > thing > > for you. There's plenty of help on the net for building a stick shifter, > > too. As far as returning your Ferrari wheel goes, all I meant is that if > > it's not defective there are only 2 alternatives. Return it, or keep it > and > > live with it, but you don't seem very happy doing that. > > > > Slot > > > > > > > > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:8nNA4.79532$[email hidden]... > > > The issue--please people-- is whether this is a Ferrari wheel-only > > > phenomenon. I haven't used an ActLabs wheel at all and I've only > tinkered > > > with a Logitech. I only want to know whether this effects all IForce > > wheels > > > (in which case I'll avoid them like the plague) or just Guillemot's > > effort. > > > > > > I don't need advice about whether I should return my (second) Ferrari > > wheel. > > > If Logitech had decent pedals and a shifter, only a moron would buyQuoted text (7 lines)
> > > other wheel--unless it is plagued by the dead FFB in a straight-line > > > syndrome. If it is, then everyone who complains about the MS-based > wheels > > > better do a bit more research. No, they are not as "smooth" as the > > > Logitech, but they at least produce the correct forces at the > appropriate > > > points and times. I can make up my own mind about the trade-offs inQuoted text (8 lines)
> > > wheel versus another. > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > > "Iain Mackenzie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:_4HA4.74$[email hidden]... > > > > I know exactly what Marc means. Unless you turn the damping rightQuoted text (32 lines)
> > > going > > > > in a straight line on the grass - even slowly - has no FF. Even > slightly > > > > turn the wheel and the FF kicks in! > > > > Try it at monza. > > > > Iain > > > > GTX_SlotCar <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:Z2DA4.1854$[email hidden]... > > > > > return your wheel. > > > > > > > > > > Slot > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:v1CA4.75194$[email hidden]... > > > > > > It has nothing to do with the damping settings...I can feel the > > grass > > > > just > > > > > > fine when I am turning the wheel. The effects are plenty strong > > when > > > > you > > > > > > adjust everything correctly. When the car is going straight, > there > > is > > > > > zero > > > > > > FFB. > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > > > > > "Aubrey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > news:entXjgHk$GA.251@cpmsnbbsa05... > > > > > > > Try increasing the damping in the core.ini. That seems toQuoted text (11 lines)
> a > > > big > > > > > > impact > > > > > > > on how the grass feels, as well as tire grip and some other > > effects. > > > > > > Don't > > > > > > > ask me why. It's weird. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is what I'm currently using on my Act Labs wheel: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > allow_force_feedback = 1 ; Use FF if deviceQuoted text (26 lines)
> it > > > > > > > force_feedback_damping = 300.000000 ; force feedback > damping > > > > > > > coefficient > > > > > > > force_feedback_latency = 0.100000 ; force feedback > latency > > > > (secs) > > > > > > > max_steering_torque = 450.000000 ; steering torque in > N*in > > > > > giving > > > > > > > max device force > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > > news:GkyA4.45912$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After you get over the QC problems and the low resolution > > steering > > > > and > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > backward drivers (you need to set spring forces to 0 to get > full > > > > FFB) > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > the fact that you can't find the blasted wheel in anyQuoted text (9 lines)
> > the > > > > > > Ferrari > > > > > > > > wheel ain't bad. The pedal resolution is excellent, it is > > sturdy, > > > > > feels > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > looks nice, has shifter and paddles (and even a set of > redundant > > > > > > > > pedal/paddles under the shifter paddles) and buttons to useQuoted text (8 lines)
> > > > shifter > > > > > > > > buttons, look left/right or whatever you want. Overall, not > > bad, > > > > > except > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > one colossal problem: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subtle FFB only works if you are turning the wheel!! WithQuoted text (37 lines)
> > > > > Saitek/MS > > > > > > > > wheel, I could feel the grass at a GPL track as I drove over > > it--a > > > > > nice > > > > > > > > subtle vibration that let you know you were on a rougher > > surface, > > > > but > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > wild canned stupidity like the grass in N3. Any way, these > > sorts > > > of > > > > > > > subtle > > > > > > > > lighter forces were readily apparent regardless of what you > were > > > > > doing. > > > > > > > > With the Ferrari wheel, they can only be felt when you are > > turning > > > > the > > > > > > > > wheel--and they are there appropriately and feel fine. If I > > just > > > > > drive > > > > > > > > straight across the same grass, there is no FFB whatsoever > from > > > the > > > > > > > surface. > > > > > > > > Of course, the grass is the easiest and fastest way to test > > this, > > > > but > > > > > it > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > happening all over the track whenever you are driving > straight. > > > > > Landing > > > > > > > > after a jump (at Mosport, e.g.) is a crucial place that this > > > effect > > > > > can > > > > > > > > throw you for a loop (I don't really care about drivingQuoted text (23 lines)
> > > > grass, > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > know). I don't even want to try to distract myself while > going > > > > around > > > > > > > > various courses attempting to figure out what is > missing....but > > is > > > > > > > annoying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do ACT Labs and Logitech wheels have this problem, too? In > > other > > > > > words, > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > it a flaw of the IForce drivers or is it some hardware > specific > > > > boner > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > Guillemot has committed? It is either specific to IForce, > > because > > > > the > > > > > > MS > > > > > > > > wheels don't have this problem, or it is Guillemot alone.Quoted text (17 lines)
> > rest > > > > of > > > > > it > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > that good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Quoted text (9 lines)
> > > > > > > > blame them on other computers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Quoted text (17 lines)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Thanks for the helpful reply...you can also test by just driving straight
across grass...although it's the feeling of one or two wheels off the tarmac
that is most helpful in GPL. It's fine when you cut a corner, because you
can feel it as the wheel is inevitably turning. On a straight-away, you get
nothing. Another major problem that results from this "effect" is a lack of
feedback when you land after a jump. And of course, in GPL, only the
suicidal jump and turn at the same time :)
Is the Ultimate Per4mer really an IForce wheel? I didn't pay much attention
to it when it was in the stores.
Marc.
"Iain Mackenzie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:mKQA4.796$[email hidden]...
straight
a
> > > close copy (inside) of the Act Labs wheel (since Act came out first).
> > Geez,
> > > I don't want to get into legal trouble for saying this, so let mestate
> > > again. In My Opinion the similarities are a remarkable, um,
> coincidence.
> > > The layouts are similar. The Act uses a slightly more powerful 7 pole
> > motor,
> > > Ferrari a 5 pole motor. The Act has wider pullies and belts withcoarser
counteracted,
I
> > > also doubt that it's an I-Force phenomenon. It's more likely physical
> > > phenomenon. I think the only thing you would gain from buying the Act
> Labs
> > > wheel is a more sympathic tech support. I have nothing againstLogitech
> > > products. I'm typing on a Logi cordless now, have their cordlessmouse,
Tried
> > it
> > > for about 3 days and thought they felt very awkward. Yet look at allthe
> > > people who are happy with the setup. Maybe that or a MSFF is just the
> > thing
> > > for you. There's plenty of help on the net for building a stickshifter,
> > > too. As far as returning your Ferrari wheel goes, all I meant is thatif
> > > it's not defective there are only 2 alternatives. Return it, or keepit
IForce
> > > wheels
> > > > (in which case I'll avoid them like the plague) or just Guillemot's
> > > effort.
> > > >
> > > > I don't need advice about whether I should return my (second)Ferrari
the
> > > grass
> > > > > just
> > > > > > > fine when I am turning the wheel. The effects are plentystrong
in
get
use
> as
> > > > > shifter
> > > > > > > > > buttons, look left/right or whatever you want. Overall,not
over
these
> > > sorts
> > > > of
> > > > > > > > subtle
> > > > > > > > > lighter forces were readily apparent regardless of whatyou
> > were
> > > > > > doing.
> > > > > > > > > With the Ferrari wheel, they can only be felt when you are
> > > turning
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > wheel--and they are there appropriately and feel fine. IfI
test
this
In
****************************************************************************
****************************************************************************
Quoted text (13 lines)
> OK, I've just tried the same thing with my old SC&T Ultimate Per4mer - and > this is a wheel that has SERIOUS FF effects - and the exact same effect > occurs. The forces going on to the grass and with one wheel on are very > strong, but going in a straight line with both wheels on the grass and the > wheel dead centre, there is NO FF at all. > It must be an IForce thing then - nothing to do with the Ferrari wheel. > Iain > > Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8VPA4.46665$[email hidden]... > > Remember Mats Lofkvist's tests with the IForce Studio utility? Did you > try > > those? Both my (and his) Ferrari's failed the forces when goingQuoted text (9 lines)
> > are anywhere near the forces when turning tests he so cleverly devised. > > What are your results on the ActLabs and the Ferrari? > > > > Marc. > > > > "GTX_SlotCar" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:lbPA4.1939$[email hidden]... > > > I don't know what else to say. I feel the feedback on the grass in a > > > straight line at Monza (and anywhere else). IMO, the Ferrari wheel isQuoted text (20 lines)
> > > teeth and feels to be about 3 lbs heavier, though I can't figure out > where > > > the weight comes from. The Act uses better bearings on the shaft, but > also > > > has more drag, probably caused by the larger belts. > > > I-Force is most likely what you're feeling unless your second Ferrari > > wheel > > > is also defective, and based on what you're saying, it's either > defective > > or > > > your hands are numb. All the I-Force wheels (in good working order) > should > > > give similar interpretations of I-Force commands. As far as subtle ff > and > > > turning the wheel goes, it's an electo-machanical thing. When the > armature > > > is rotating you also feel the pull of the magnets as the arm rotates > > through > > > the magnetic fields, and you induce motion (assist the feedback). The > > > stronger the motor, the greater the increase in subtle ff,Quoted text (9 lines)
> > of > > > course, by drag. So all things being equal, the Logitech should have a > > very > > > small increase in subtle ff as the wheel is rotated, the Ferrari a > little > > > more, and the Act even more (except the added drag on the Act makes it > > less > > > noticable). > > > I guess the answer is that it's not a "Ferrari wheel-only phenomenon".Quoted text (10 lines)
> > too. > > > My kids have their Internet keyboard and Mouseman+. In fact, we have > > several > > > Logi products in the house. The LWFF has definate merits. I realize > that > > > people buy products for their own reasons, not mine. I have to assume > that > > > when you make comments like "only a moron would buy...", it's done out > of > > > frustration. I got help on ras to hookup my CH pedals with wheels.Quoted text (13 lines)
> > and > > > live with it, but you don't seem very happy doing that. > > > > > > Slot > > > > > > > > > > > > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:8nNA4.79532$[email hidden]... > > > > The issue--please people-- is whether this is a Ferrari wheel-only > > > > phenomenon. I haven't used an ActLabs wheel at all and I've only > > tinkered > > > > with a Logitech. I only want to know whether this effects allQuoted text (36 lines)
> > > wheel. > > > > If Logitech had decent pedals and a shifter, only a moron would buy > any > > > > other wheel--unless it is plagued by the dead FFB in a straight-line > > > > syndrome. If it is, then everyone who complains about the MS-based > > wheels > > > > better do a bit more research. No, they are not as "smooth" as the > > > > Logitech, but they at least produce the correct forces at the > > appropriate > > > > points and times. I can make up my own mind about the trade-offs in > one > > > > wheel versus another. > > > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > > > > > "Iain Mackenzie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:_4HA4.74$[email hidden]... > > > > > I know exactly what Marc means. Unless you turn the damping right > up, > > > > going > > > > > in a straight line on the grass - even slowly - has no FF. Even > > slightly > > > > > turn the wheel and the FF kicks in! > > > > > Try it at monza. > > > > > Iain > > > > > GTX_SlotCar <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:Z2DA4.1854$[email hidden]... > > > > > > return your wheel. > > > > > > > > > > > > Slot > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > news:v1CA4.75194$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > It has nothing to do with the damping settings...I can feelQuoted text (34 lines)
> > > when > > > > > you > > > > > > > adjust everything correctly. When the car is going straight, > > there > > > is > > > > > > zero > > > > > > > FFB. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Aubrey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > > news:entXjgHk$GA.251@cpmsnbbsa05... > > > > > > > > Try increasing the damping in the core.ini. That seems to > have > > a > > > > big > > > > > > > impact > > > > > > > > on how the grass feels, as well as tire grip and some other > > > effects. > > > > > > > Don't > > > > > > > > ask me why. It's weird. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is what I'm currently using on my Act Labs wheel: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > allow_force_feedback = 1 ; Use FF if device > has > > it > > > > > > > > force_feedback_damping = 300.000000 ; force feedback > > damping > > > > > > > > coefficient > > > > > > > > force_feedback_latency = 0.100000 ; force feedback > > latency > > > > > (secs) > > > > > > > > max_steering_torque = 450.000000 ; steering torqueQuoted text (14 lines)
> > N*in > > > > > > giving > > > > > > > > max device force > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > > > news:GkyA4.45912$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After you get over the QC problems and the low resolution > > > steering > > > > > and > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > backward drivers (you need to set spring forces to 0 toQuoted text (14 lines)
> > full > > > > > FFB) > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > the fact that you can't find the blasted wheel in any > stores, > > > the > > > > > > > Ferrari > > > > > > > > > wheel ain't bad. The pedal resolution is excellent, it is > > > sturdy, > > > > > > feels > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > looks nice, has shifter and paddles (and even a set of > > redundant > > > > > > > > > pedal/paddles under the shifter paddles) and buttons toQuoted text (9 lines)
> > > bad, > > > > > > except > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > one colossal problem: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subtle FFB only works if you are turning the wheel!! With > my > > > > > > Saitek/MS > > > > > > > > > wheel, I could feel the grass at a GPL track as I droveQuoted text (7 lines)
> > > it--a > > > > > > nice > > > > > > > > > subtle vibration that let you know you were on a rougher > > > surface, > > > > > but > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > wild canned stupidity like the grass in N3. Any way,Quoted text (7 lines)
> > > just > > > > > > drive > > > > > > > > > straight across the same grass, there is no FFB whatsoever > > from > > > > the > > > > > > > > surface. > > > > > > > > > Of course, the grass is the easiest and fastest way toQuoted text (8 lines)
> > > this, > > > > > but > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > happening all over the track whenever you are driving > > straight. > > > > > > Landing > > > > > > > > > after a jump (at Mosport, e.g.) is a crucial place thatQuoted text (15 lines)
> > > > effect > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > throw you for a loop (I don't really care about driving > across > > > > > grass, > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > know). I don't even want to try to distract myself while > > going > > > > > around > > > > > > > > > various courses attempting to figure out what is > > missing....but > > > is > > > > > > > > annoying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do ACT Labs and Logitech wheels have this problem, too?Quoted text (38 lines)
> > > other > > > > > > words, > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > it a flaw of the IForce drivers or is it some hardware > > specific > > > > > boner > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > Guillemot has committed? It is either specific to IForce, > > > because > > > > > the > > > > > > > MS > > > > > > > > > wheels don't have this problem, or it is Guillemot alone. > If > > > they > > > > > > could > > > > > > > > > increase the steering resolution (double it) and fix this > > major > > > > > > > oversight, > > > > > > > > > the wheel would be worth double what they are > charging....the > > > rest > > > > > of > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > that good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Quoted text (15 lines)
> > > > > > > > > Marc Collins > > > > > > > > > [email hidden] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Computers will never equal humans until they make mistakes > and > > > > > > > > > blame them on other computers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Quoted text (19 lines)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Ya, I tried the tests. Had to turn the Direction to 90� first at any
magnitude to feel anything. Also, I wasn't convinced that the test actually
proved dynamic range at all. He used a very low frequency which of course
doesn't transmit well at lower magnitudes or volumes (which is what this
really is). That's why you have a Bass Boost (Loudness on some) on your
stereo amplifier that kicks off at higher volume settings. So I used a
higher frequency and of course ended up feeling the waves at a much lower
magnitude than he did. But that was part of his point, right? How low you
can set the magnitude and still feel it (regardless of the frequency).
Still, I don't see dynamic range in this at all (no offense to Mats). When
you turn the wheel (motor) you collide with the wave pulses as each armature
pole passes by the magnets, so the force is stronger. Well, I won't go on
about this.
Oh, the wheels felt almost identical. I'd bet that the Act wheel with it's
slightly stronger motor would feel lower amplitudes when stationary in time
as the wheel loosens up.Turning the wheel was a little different, not much,
probably because it has a 7 pole armature where the Ferrari has 5.
Slot
"Iain Mackenzie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:mKQA4.796$5
[email hidden]...
straight
a
> > > close copy (inside) of the Act Labs wheel (since Act came out first).
> > Geez,
> > > I don't want to get into legal trouble for saying this, so let mestate
> > > again. In My Opinion the similarities are a remarkable, um,
> coincidence.
> > > The layouts are similar. The Act uses a slightly more powerful 7 pole
> > motor,
> > > Ferrari a 5 pole motor. The Act has wider pullies and belts withcoarser
counteracted,
I
> > > also doubt that it's an I-Force phenomenon. It's more likely physical
> > > phenomenon. I think the only thing you would gain from buying the Act
> Labs
> > > wheel is a more sympathic tech support. I have nothing againstLogitech
> > > products. I'm typing on a Logi cordless now, have their cordlessmouse,
Tried
> > it
> > > for about 3 days and thought they felt very awkward. Yet look at allthe
> > > people who are happy with the setup. Maybe that or a MSFF is just the
> > thing
> > > for you. There's plenty of help on the net for building a stickshifter,
> > > too. As far as returning your Ferrari wheel goes, all I meant is thatif
> > > it's not defective there are only 2 alternatives. Return it, or keepit
IForce
> > > wheels
> > > > (in which case I'll avoid them like the plague) or just Guillemot's
> > > effort.
> > > >
> > > > I don't need advice about whether I should return my (second)Ferrari
the
> > > grass
> > > > > just
> > > > > > > fine when I am turning the wheel. The effects are plentystrong
in
get
use
> as
> > > > > shifter
> > > > > > > > > buttons, look left/right or whatever you want. Overall,not
over
these
> > > sorts
> > > > of
> > > > > > > > subtle
> > > > > > > > > lighter forces were readily apparent regardless of whatyou
> > were
> > > > > > doing.
> > > > > > > > > With the Ferrari wheel, they can only be felt when you are
> > > turning
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > wheel--and they are there appropriately and feel fine. IfI
test
this
In
****************************************************************************
****************************************************************************
Quoted text (13 lines)
> OK, I've just tried the same thing with my old SC&T Ultimate Per4mer - and > this is a wheel that has SERIOUS FF effects - and the exact same effect > occurs. The forces going on to the grass and with one wheel on are very > strong, but going in a straight line with both wheels on the grass and the > wheel dead centre, there is NO FF at all. > It must be an IForce thing then - nothing to do with the Ferrari wheel. > Iain > > Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8VPA4.46665$[email hidden]... > > Remember Mats Lofkvist's tests with the IForce Studio utility? Did you > try > > those? Both my (and his) Ferrari's failed the forces when goingQuoted text (9 lines)
> > are anywhere near the forces when turning tests he so cleverly devised. > > What are your results on the ActLabs and the Ferrari? > > > > Marc. > > > > "GTX_SlotCar" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:lbPA4.1939$[email hidden]... > > > I don't know what else to say. I feel the feedback on the grass in a > > > straight line at Monza (and anywhere else). IMO, the Ferrari wheel isQuoted text (20 lines)
> > > teeth and feels to be about 3 lbs heavier, though I can't figure out > where > > > the weight comes from. The Act uses better bearings on the shaft, but > also > > > has more drag, probably caused by the larger belts. > > > I-Force is most likely what you're feeling unless your second Ferrari > > wheel > > > is also defective, and based on what you're saying, it's either > defective > > or > > > your hands are numb. All the I-Force wheels (in good working order) > should > > > give similar interpretations of I-Force commands. As far as subtle ff > and > > > turning the wheel goes, it's an electo-machanical thing. When the > armature > > > is rotating you also feel the pull of the magnets as the arm rotates > > through > > > the magnetic fields, and you induce motion (assist the feedback). The > > > stronger the motor, the greater the increase in subtle ff,Quoted text (9 lines)
> > of > > > course, by drag. So all things being equal, the Logitech should have a > > very > > > small increase in subtle ff as the wheel is rotated, the Ferrari a > little > > > more, and the Act even more (except the added drag on the Act makes it > > less > > > noticable). > > > I guess the answer is that it's not a "Ferrari wheel-only phenomenon".Quoted text (10 lines)
> > too. > > > My kids have their Internet keyboard and Mouseman+. In fact, we have > > several > > > Logi products in the house. The LWFF has definate merits. I realize > that > > > people buy products for their own reasons, not mine. I have to assume > that > > > when you make comments like "only a moron would buy...", it's done out > of > > > frustration. I got help on ras to hookup my CH pedals with wheels.Quoted text (13 lines)
> > and > > > live with it, but you don't seem very happy doing that. > > > > > > Slot > > > > > > > > > > > > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:8nNA4.79532$[email hidden]... > > > > The issue--please people-- is whether this is a Ferrari wheel-only > > > > phenomenon. I haven't used an ActLabs wheel at all and I've only > > tinkered > > > > with a Logitech. I only want to know whether this effects allQuoted text (36 lines)
> > > wheel. > > > > If Logitech had decent pedals and a shifter, only a moron would buy > any > > > > other wheel--unless it is plagued by the dead FFB in a straight-line > > > > syndrome. If it is, then everyone who complains about the MS-based > > wheels > > > > better do a bit more research. No, they are not as "smooth" as the > > > > Logitech, but they at least produce the correct forces at the > > appropriate > > > > points and times. I can make up my own mind about the trade-offs in > one > > > > wheel versus another. > > > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > > > > > "Iain Mackenzie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:_4HA4.74$[email hidden]... > > > > > I know exactly what Marc means. Unless you turn the damping right > up, > > > > going > > > > > in a straight line on the grass - even slowly - has no FF. Even > > slightly > > > > > turn the wheel and the FF kicks in! > > > > > Try it at monza. > > > > > Iain > > > > > GTX_SlotCar <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:Z2DA4.1854$[email hidden]... > > > > > > return your wheel. > > > > > > > > > > > > Slot > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > news:v1CA4.75194$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > It has nothing to do with the damping settings...I can feelQuoted text (34 lines)
> > > when > > > > > you > > > > > > > adjust everything correctly. When the car is going straight, > > there > > > is > > > > > > zero > > > > > > > FFB. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Aubrey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > > news:entXjgHk$GA.251@cpmsnbbsa05... > > > > > > > > Try increasing the damping in the core.ini. That seems to > have > > a > > > > big > > > > > > > impact > > > > > > > > on how the grass feels, as well as tire grip and some other > > > effects. > > > > > > > Don't > > > > > > > > ask me why. It's weird. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is what I'm currently using on my Act Labs wheel: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > allow_force_feedback = 1 ; Use FF if device > has > > it > > > > > > > > force_feedback_damping = 300.000000 ; force feedback > > damping > > > > > > > > coefficient > > > > > > > > force_feedback_latency = 0.100000 ; force feedback > > latency > > > > > (secs) > > > > > > > > max_steering_torque = 450.000000 ; steering torqueQuoted text (14 lines)
> > N*in > > > > > > giving > > > > > > > > max device force > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > > > news:GkyA4.45912$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After you get over the QC problems and the low resolution > > > steering > > > > > and > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > backward drivers (you need to set spring forces to 0 toQuoted text (14 lines)
> > full > > > > > FFB) > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > the fact that you can't find the blasted wheel in any > stores, > > > the > > > > > > > Ferrari > > > > > > > > > wheel ain't bad. The pedal resolution is excellent, it is > > > sturdy, > > > > > > feels > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > looks nice, has shifter and paddles (and even a set of > > redundant > > > > > > > > > pedal/paddles under the shifter paddles) and buttons toQuoted text (9 lines)
> > > bad, > > > > > > except > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > one colossal problem: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subtle FFB only works if you are turning the wheel!! With > my > > > > > > Saitek/MS > > > > > > > > > wheel, I could feel the grass at a GPL track as I droveQuoted text (7 lines)
> > > it--a > > > > > > nice > > > > > > > > > subtle vibration that let you know you were on a rougher > > > surface, > > > > > but > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > wild canned stupidity like the grass in N3. Any way,Quoted text (7 lines)
> > > just > > > > > > drive > > > > > > > > > straight across the same grass, there is no FFB whatsoever > > from > > > > the > > > > > > > > surface. > > > > > > > > > Of course, the grass is the easiest and fastest way toQuoted text (8 lines)
> > > this, > > > > > but > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > happening all over the track whenever you are driving > > straight. > > > > > > Landing > > > > > > > > > after a jump (at Mosport, e.g.) is a crucial place thatQuoted text (15 lines)
> > > > effect > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > throw you for a loop (I don't really care about driving > across > > > > > grass, > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > know). I don't even want to try to distract myself while > > going > > > > > around > > > > > > > > > various courses attempting to figure out what is > > missing....but > > > is > > > > > > > > annoying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do ACT Labs and Logitech wheels have this problem, too?Quoted text (38 lines)
> > > other > > > > > > words, > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > it a flaw of the IForce drivers or is it some hardware > > specific > > > > > boner > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > Guillemot has committed? It is either specific to IForce, > > > because > > > > > the > > > > > > > MS > > > > > > > > > wheels don't have this problem, or it is Guillemot alone. > If > > > they > > > > > > could > > > > > > > > > increase the steering resolution (double it) and fix this > > major > > > > > > > oversight, > > > > > > > > > the wheel would be worth double what they are > charging....the > > > rest > > > > > of > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > that good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Quoted text (15 lines)
> > > > > > > > > Marc Collins > > > > > > > > > [email hidden] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Computers will never equal humans until they make mistakes > and > > > > > > > > > blame them on other computers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Quoted text (19 lines)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >The Ultimate Per4mer is very definitely a IForce wheel. Check out a review
at http://www.force-1.com/. It has very strong FF effects and is very well
constructed. It has however one big problem, and that is the angle it sits
at on your desk! It really is quite unbearable and feels almost 45 degrees!
That is the only reason that I went testing out various other wheels finally
getting the Guillemot. Also, SC&T no longer support PC as they were losing
money.
Iain
Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:22SA4.80068$[email hidden]...
> Thanks for the helpful reply...you can also test by just driving straight
> across grass...although it's the feeling of one or two wheels off thetarmac
> that is most helpful in GPL. It's fine when you cut a corner, because you
> can feel it as the wheel is inevitably turning. On a straight-away, youget
> nothing. Another major problem that results from this "effect" is a lackof
> feedback when you land after a jump. And of course, in GPL, only the
> suicidal jump and turn at the same time :)
>
> Is the Ultimate Per4mer really an IForce wheel? I didn't pay muchattention
and
> > this is a wheel that has SERIOUS FF effects - and the exact same effect
> > occurs. The forces going on to the grass and with one wheel on are very
> > strong, but going in a straight line with both wheels on the grass andthe
you
> > try
> > > those? Both my (and his) Ferrari's failed the forces when going
> straight
> > > are anywhere near the forces when turning tests he so cleverlydevised.
is
> a
> > > > close copy (inside) of the Act Labs wheel (since Act came outfirst).
> > > Geez,
> > > > I don't want to get into legal trouble for saying this, so let me
> state
> > > > again. In My Opinion the similarities are a remarkable, um,
> > coincidence.
> > > > The layouts are similar. The Act uses a slightly more powerful 7pole
> > > motor,
> > > > Ferrari a 5 pole motor. The Act has wider pullies and belts with
> coarser
> > > > teeth and feels to be about 3 lbs heavier, though I can't figure out
> > where
> > > > the weight comes from. The Act uses better bearings on the shaft,but
> > also
> > > > has more drag, probably caused by the larger belts.
> > > > I-Force is most likely what you're feeling unless your secondFerrari
ff
> > and
> > > > turning the wheel goes, it's an electo-machanical thing. When the
> > armature
> > > > is rotating you also feel the pull of the magnets as the arm rotates
> > > through
> > > > the magnetic fields, and you induce motion (assist the feedback).The
> > > > stronger the motor, the greater the increase in subtle ff,
> counteracted,
> > > of
> > > > course, by drag. So all things being equal, the Logitech should havea
> > > very
> > > > small increase in subtle ff as the wheel is rotated, the Ferrari a
> > little
> > > > more, and the Act even more (except the added drag on the Act makesit
> > > less
> > > > noticable).
> > > > I guess the answer is that it's not a "Ferrari wheel-onlyphenomenon".
> I
> > > > also doubt that it's an I-Force phenomenon. It's more likelyphysical
> > > > phenomenon. I think the only thing you would gain from buying theAct
assume
> > that
> > > > when you make comments like "only a moron would buy...", it's doneout
the
> > > thing
> > > > for you. There's plenty of help on the net for building a stick
> shifter,
> > > > too. As far as returning your Ferrari wheel goes, all I meant isthat
Guillemot's
> > > > effort.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't need advice about whether I should return my (second)
> Ferrari
> > > > wheel.
> > > > > If Logitech had decent pedals and a shifter, only a moron wouldbuy
> > any
> > > > > other wheel--unless it is plagued by the dead FFB in astraight-line
> > > > > syndrome. If it is, then everyone who complains about theMS-based
> > > wheels
> > > > > better do a bit more research. No, they are not as "smooth" asthe
> > > > > Logitech, but they at least produce the correct forces at the
> > > appropriate
> > > > > points and times. I can make up my own mind about the trade-offsin
right
straight,
other
device
resolution
is
With
are
> > > > turning
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > wheel--and they are there appropriately and feel fine.If
> I
> > > > just
> > > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > > > straight across the same grass, there is no FFBwhatsoever
while
IForce,
> > > > because
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > MS
> > > > > > > > > > wheels don't have this problem, or it is Guillemotalone.
> > If
> > > > they
> > > > > > > could
> > > > > > > > > > increase the steering resolution (double it) and fixthis
****************************************************************************
> > > > > > > > > > Marc Collins
> > > > > > > > > > [email hidden]
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Computers will never equal humans until they makemistakes
****************************************************************************
Quoted text (8 lines)
> to it when it was in the stores. > > Marc. > > > "Iain Mackenzie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:mKQA4.796$[email hidden]... > > OK, I've just tried the same thing with my old SC&T Ultimate Per4mer -Quoted text (7 lines)
> > wheel dead centre, there is NO FF at all. > > It must be an IForce thing then - nothing to do with the Ferrari wheel. > > Iain > > > > Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:8VPA4.46665$[email hidden]... > > > Remember Mats Lofkvist's tests with the IForce Studio utility? DidQuoted text (8 lines)
> > > What are your results on the ActLabs and the Ferrari? > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > "GTX_SlotCar" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:lbPA4.1939$[email hidden]... > > > > I don't know what else to say. I feel the feedback on the grass in a > > > > straight line at Monza (and anywhere else). IMO, the Ferrari wheelQuoted text (7 lines)
> > > wheel > > > > is also defective, and based on what you're saying, it's either > > defective > > > or > > > > your hands are numb. All the I-Force wheels (in good working order) > > should > > > > give similar interpretations of I-Force commands. As far as subtleQuoted text (11 lines)
> > Labs > > > > wheel is a more sympathic tech support. I have nothing against > Logitech > > > > products. I'm typing on a Logi cordless now, have their cordless > mouse, > > > too. > > > > My kids have their Internet keyboard and Mouseman+. In fact, we have > > > several > > > > Logi products in the house. The LWFF has definate merits. I realize > > that > > > > people buy products for their own reasons, not mine. I have toQuoted text (7 lines)
> > of > > > > frustration. I got help on ras to hookup my CH pedals with wheels. > Tried > > > it > > > > for about 3 days and thought they felt very awkward. Yet look at all > the > > > > people who are happy with the setup. Maybe that or a MSFF is justQuoted text (19 lines)
> if > > > > it's not defective there are only 2 alternatives. Return it, or keep > it > > > and > > > > live with it, but you don't seem very happy doing that. > > > > > > > > Slot > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:8nNA4.79532$[email hidden]... > > > > > The issue--please people-- is whether this is a Ferrari wheel-only > > > > > phenomenon. I haven't used an ActLabs wheel at all and I've only > > > tinkered > > > > > with a Logitech. I only want to know whether this effects all > IForce > > > > wheels > > > > > (in which case I'll avoid them like the plague) or justQuoted text (9 lines)
> > one > > > > > wheel versus another. > > > > > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Iain Mackenzie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:_4HA4.74$[email hidden]... > > > > > > I know exactly what Marc means. Unless you turn the dampingQuoted text (25 lines)
> > up, > > > > > going > > > > > > in a straight line on the grass - even slowly - has no FF. Even > > > slightly > > > > > > turn the wheel and the FF kicks in! > > > > > > Try it at monza. > > > > > > Iain > > > > > > GTX_SlotCar <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > news:Z2DA4.1854$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > return your wheel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Slot > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > > news:v1CA4.75194$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > It has nothing to do with the damping settings...I can feel > the > > > > grass > > > > > > just > > > > > > > > fine when I am turning the wheel. The effects are plenty > strong > > > > when > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > adjust everything correctly. When the car is goingQuoted text (15 lines)
> > > there > > > > is > > > > > > > zero > > > > > > > > FFB. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Aubrey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > > > news:entXjgHk$GA.251@cpmsnbbsa05... > > > > > > > > > Try increasing the damping in the core.ini. That seems to > > have > > > a > > > > > big > > > > > > > > impact > > > > > > > > > on how the grass feels, as well as tire grip and someQuoted text (7 lines)
> > > > effects. > > > > > > > > Don't > > > > > > > > > ask me why. It's weird. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is what I'm currently using on my Act Labs wheel: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > allow_force_feedback = 1 ; Use FF ifQuoted text (20 lines)
> > has > > > it > > > > > > > > > force_feedback_damping = 300.000000 ; force feedback > > > damping > > > > > > > > > coefficient > > > > > > > > > force_feedback_latency = 0.100000 ; force feedback > > > latency > > > > > > (secs) > > > > > > > > > max_steering_torque = 450.000000 ; steering torque > in > > > N*in > > > > > > > giving > > > > > > > > > max device force > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > > > > news:GkyA4.45912$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After you get over the QC problems and the lowQuoted text (13 lines)
> > > > steering > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > backward drivers (you need to set spring forces to 0 to > get > > > full > > > > > > FFB) > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > the fact that you can't find the blasted wheel in any > > stores, > > > > the > > > > > > > > Ferrari > > > > > > > > > > wheel ain't bad. The pedal resolution is excellent, itQuoted text (17 lines)
> > > > sturdy, > > > > > > > feels > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > looks nice, has shifter and paddles (and even a set of > > > redundant > > > > > > > > > > pedal/paddles under the shifter paddles) and buttons to > use > > as > > > > > > shifter > > > > > > > > > > buttons, look left/right or whatever you want. Overall, > not > > > > bad, > > > > > > > except > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > one colossal problem: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subtle FFB only works if you are turning the wheel!!Quoted text (20 lines)
> > my > > > > > > > Saitek/MS > > > > > > > > > > wheel, I could feel the grass at a GPL track as I drove > over > > > > it--a > > > > > > > nice > > > > > > > > > > subtle vibration that let you know you were on a rougher > > > > surface, > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > wild canned stupidity like the grass in N3. Any way, > these > > > > sorts > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > subtle > > > > > > > > > > lighter forces were readily apparent regardless of what > you > > > were > > > > > > > doing. > > > > > > > > > > With the Ferrari wheel, they can only be felt when youQuoted text (21 lines)
> > > from > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > surface. > > > > > > > > > > Of course, the grass is the easiest and fastest way to > test > > > > this, > > > > > > but > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > happening all over the track whenever you are driving > > > straight. > > > > > > > Landing > > > > > > > > > > after a jump (at Mosport, e.g.) is a crucial place that > this > > > > > effect > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > > throw you for a loop (I don't really care about driving > > across > > > > > > grass, > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > > know). I don't even want to try to distract myselfQuoted text (17 lines)
> > > going > > > > > > around > > > > > > > > > > various courses attempting to figure out what is > > > missing....but > > > > is > > > > > > > > > annoying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do ACT Labs and Logitech wheels have this problem, too? > In > > > > other > > > > > > > words, > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > it a flaw of the IForce drivers or is it some hardware > > > specific > > > > > > boner > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > Guillemot has committed? It is either specific toQuoted text (23 lines)
> > > major > > > > > > > > oversight, > > > > > > > > > > the wheel would be worth double what they are > > charging....the > > > > rest > > > > > > of > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > that good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Quoted text (12 lines)
> > and > > > > > > > > > > blame them on other computers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Quoted text (21 lines)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >You can probably explain to me (us) what is happening that affects the wheel
as it gets broken in. I have heard many talk about the ActLabs feeling
different as the belts wear-in or something. Is this going to happen to the
Ferrari? What will/should happen? I certainly cannot tell any difference
yet in mine.
Thanks,
Marc.
P.S., Mats tests just illustrated to me that the wheel had decent response
to low-level forces, but that they there was a big difference between the
smallest force you could feel with the wheel still compared to if it was
turning. This seems to precisely mirror the situation in GPL. I believe
that if you could implement such a test on a MS-based wheel, you would not
experience the disparity--the smallest forces can be felt equally (although
maybe not so smoothly) whether the wheel is turning or stationary. I have
no idea why IForce would intentionally design things this way???? Any
ideas?
"GTX_SlotCar" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:OfSA4.2035$[email hidden]...
> Ya, I tried the tests. Had to turn the Direction to 90� first at any
> magnitude to feel anything. Also, I wasn't convinced that the testactually
armature
> pole passes by the magnets, so the force is stronger. Well, I won't go on
> about this.
> Oh, the wheels felt almost identical. I'd bet that the Act wheel with it's
> slightly stronger motor would feel lower amplitudes when stationary intime
> as the wheel loosens up.Turning the wheel was a little different, notmuch,
and
> > this is a wheel that has SERIOUS FF effects - and the exact same effect
> > occurs. The forces going on to the grass and with one wheel on are very
> > strong, but going in a straight line with both wheels on the grass andthe
you
> > try
> > > those? Both my (and his) Ferrari's failed the forces when going
> straight
> > > are anywhere near the forces when turning tests he so cleverlydevised.
is
> a
> > > > close copy (inside) of the Act Labs wheel (since Act came outfirst).
> > > Geez,
> > > > I don't want to get into legal trouble for saying this, so let me
> state
> > > > again. In My Opinion the similarities are a remarkable, um,
> > coincidence.
> > > > The layouts are similar. The Act uses a slightly more powerful 7pole
> > > motor,
> > > > Ferrari a 5 pole motor. The Act has wider pullies and belts with
> coarser
> > > > teeth and feels to be about 3 lbs heavier, though I can't figure out
> > where
> > > > the weight comes from. The Act uses better bearings on the shaft,but
> > also
> > > > has more drag, probably caused by the larger belts.
> > > > I-Force is most likely what you're feeling unless your secondFerrari
ff
> > and
> > > > turning the wheel goes, it's an electo-machanical thing. When the
> > armature
> > > > is rotating you also feel the pull of the magnets as the arm rotates
> > > through
> > > > the magnetic fields, and you induce motion (assist the feedback).The
> > > > stronger the motor, the greater the increase in subtle ff,
> counteracted,
> > > of
> > > > course, by drag. So all things being equal, the Logitech should havea
> > > very
> > > > small increase in subtle ff as the wheel is rotated, the Ferrari a
> > little
> > > > more, and the Act even more (except the added drag on the Act makesit
> > > less
> > > > noticable).
> > > > I guess the answer is that it's not a "Ferrari wheel-onlyphenomenon".
> I
> > > > also doubt that it's an I-Force phenomenon. It's more likelyphysical
> > > > phenomenon. I think the only thing you would gain from buying theAct
assume
> > that
> > > > when you make comments like "only a moron would buy...", it's doneout
the
> > > thing
> > > > for you. There's plenty of help on the net for building a stick
> shifter,
> > > > too. As far as returning your Ferrari wheel goes, all I meant isthat
Guillemot's
> > > > effort.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't need advice about whether I should return my (second)
> Ferrari
> > > > wheel.
> > > > > If Logitech had decent pedals and a shifter, only a moron wouldbuy
> > any
> > > > > other wheel--unless it is plagued by the dead FFB in astraight-line
> > > > > syndrome. If it is, then everyone who complains about theMS-based
> > > wheels
> > > > > better do a bit more research. No, they are not as "smooth" asthe
> > > > > Logitech, but they at least produce the correct forces at the
> > > appropriate
> > > > > points and times. I can make up my own mind about the trade-offsin
right
straight,
other
device
resolution
is
With
are
> > > > turning
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > wheel--and they are there appropriately and feel fine.If
> I
> > > > just
> > > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > > > straight across the same grass, there is no FFBwhatsoever
while
IForce,
> > > > because
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > MS
> > > > > > > > > > wheels don't have this problem, or it is Guillemotalone.
> > If
> > > > they
> > > > > > > could
> > > > > > > > > > increase the steering resolution (double it) and fixthis
****************************************************************************
> > > > > > > > > > Marc Collins
> > > > > > > > > > [email hidden]
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Computers will never equal humans until they makemistakes
****************************************************************************
Quoted text (9 lines)
> proved dynamic range at all. He used a very low frequency which of course > doesn't transmit well at lower magnitudes or volumes (which is what this > really is). That's why you have a Bass Boost (Loudness on some) on your > stereo amplifier that kicks off at higher volume settings. So I used a > higher frequency and of course ended up feeling the waves at a much lower > magnitude than he did. But that was part of his point, right? How low you > can set the magnitude and still feel it (regardless of the frequency). > Still, I don't see dynamic range in this at all (no offense to Mats). When > you turn the wheel (motor) you collide with the wave pulses as eachQuoted text (10 lines)
> probably because it has a 7 pole armature where the Ferrari has 5. > > Slot > > > > "Iain Mackenzie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:mKQA4.796$5 > [email hidden]... > > OK, I've just tried the same thing with my old SC&T Ultimate Per4mer -Quoted text (7 lines)
> > wheel dead centre, there is NO FF at all. > > It must be an IForce thing then - nothing to do with the Ferrari wheel. > > Iain > > > > Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:8VPA4.46665$[email hidden]... > > > Remember Mats Lofkvist's tests with the IForce Studio utility? DidQuoted text (8 lines)
> > > What are your results on the ActLabs and the Ferrari? > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > "GTX_SlotCar" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:lbPA4.1939$[email hidden]... > > > > I don't know what else to say. I feel the feedback on the grass in a > > > > straight line at Monza (and anywhere else). IMO, the Ferrari wheelQuoted text (7 lines)
> > > wheel > > > > is also defective, and based on what you're saying, it's either > > defective > > > or > > > > your hands are numb. All the I-Force wheels (in good working order) > > should > > > > give similar interpretations of I-Force commands. As far as subtleQuoted text (11 lines)
> > Labs > > > > wheel is a more sympathic tech support. I have nothing against > Logitech > > > > products. I'm typing on a Logi cordless now, have their cordless > mouse, > > > too. > > > > My kids have their Internet keyboard and Mouseman+. In fact, we have > > > several > > > > Logi products in the house. The LWFF has definate merits. I realize > > that > > > > people buy products for their own reasons, not mine. I have toQuoted text (7 lines)
> > of > > > > frustration. I got help on ras to hookup my CH pedals with wheels. > Tried > > > it > > > > for about 3 days and thought they felt very awkward. Yet look at all > the > > > > people who are happy with the setup. Maybe that or a MSFF is justQuoted text (19 lines)
> if > > > > it's not defective there are only 2 alternatives. Return it, or keep > it > > > and > > > > live with it, but you don't seem very happy doing that. > > > > > > > > Slot > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:8nNA4.79532$[email hidden]... > > > > > The issue--please people-- is whether this is a Ferrari wheel-only > > > > > phenomenon. I haven't used an ActLabs wheel at all and I've only > > > tinkered > > > > > with a Logitech. I only want to know whether this effects all > IForce > > > > wheels > > > > > (in which case I'll avoid them like the plague) or justQuoted text (9 lines)
> > one > > > > > wheel versus another. > > > > > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Iain Mackenzie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:_4HA4.74$[email hidden]... > > > > > > I know exactly what Marc means. Unless you turn the dampingQuoted text (25 lines)
> > up, > > > > > going > > > > > > in a straight line on the grass - even slowly - has no FF. Even > > > slightly > > > > > > turn the wheel and the FF kicks in! > > > > > > Try it at monza. > > > > > > Iain > > > > > > GTX_SlotCar <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > news:Z2DA4.1854$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > return your wheel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Slot > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > > news:v1CA4.75194$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > It has nothing to do with the damping settings...I can feel > the > > > > grass > > > > > > just > > > > > > > > fine when I am turning the wheel. The effects are plenty > strong > > > > when > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > adjust everything correctly. When the car is goingQuoted text (15 lines)
> > > there > > > > is > > > > > > > zero > > > > > > > > FFB. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Aubrey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > > > news:entXjgHk$GA.251@cpmsnbbsa05... > > > > > > > > > Try increasing the damping in the core.ini. That seems to > > have > > > a > > > > > big > > > > > > > > impact > > > > > > > > > on how the grass feels, as well as tire grip and someQuoted text (7 lines)
> > > > effects. > > > > > > > > Don't > > > > > > > > > ask me why. It's weird. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is what I'm currently using on my Act Labs wheel: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > allow_force_feedback = 1 ; Use FF ifQuoted text (20 lines)
> > has > > > it > > > > > > > > > force_feedback_damping = 300.000000 ; force feedback > > > damping > > > > > > > > > coefficient > > > > > > > > > force_feedback_latency = 0.100000 ; force feedback > > > latency > > > > > > (secs) > > > > > > > > > max_steering_torque = 450.000000 ; steering torque > in > > > N*in > > > > > > > giving > > > > > > > > > max device force > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > > > > news:GkyA4.45912$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After you get over the QC problems and the lowQuoted text (13 lines)
> > > > steering > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > backward drivers (you need to set spring forces to 0 to > get > > > full > > > > > > FFB) > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > the fact that you can't find the blasted wheel in any > > stores, > > > > the > > > > > > > > Ferrari > > > > > > > > > > wheel ain't bad. The pedal resolution is excellent, itQuoted text (17 lines)
> > > > sturdy, > > > > > > > feels > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > looks nice, has shifter and paddles (and even a set of > > > redundant > > > > > > > > > > pedal/paddles under the shifter paddles) and buttons to > use > > as > > > > > > shifter > > > > > > > > > > buttons, look left/right or whatever you want. Overall, > not > > > > bad, > > > > > > > except > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > one colossal problem: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subtle FFB only works if you are turning the wheel!!Quoted text (20 lines)
> > my > > > > > > > Saitek/MS > > > > > > > > > > wheel, I could feel the grass at a GPL track as I drove > over > > > > it--a > > > > > > > nice > > > > > > > > > > subtle vibration that let you know you were on a rougher > > > > surface, > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > wild canned stupidity like the grass in N3. Any way, > these > > > > sorts > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > subtle > > > > > > > > > > lighter forces were readily apparent regardless of what > you > > > were > > > > > > > doing. > > > > > > > > > > With the Ferrari wheel, they can only be felt when youQuoted text (21 lines)
> > > from > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > surface. > > > > > > > > > > Of course, the grass is the easiest and fastest way to > test > > > > this, > > > > > > but > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > happening all over the track whenever you are driving > > > straight. > > > > > > > Landing > > > > > > > > > > after a jump (at Mosport, e.g.) is a crucial place that > this > > > > > effect > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > > throw you for a loop (I don't really care about driving > > across > > > > > > grass, > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > > know). I don't even want to try to distract myselfQuoted text (17 lines)
> > > going > > > > > > around > > > > > > > > > > various courses attempting to figure out what is > > > missing....but > > > > is > > > > > > > > > annoying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do ACT Labs and Logitech wheels have this problem, too? > In > > > > other > > > > > > > words, > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > it a flaw of the IForce drivers or is it some hardware > > > specific > > > > > > boner > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > Guillemot has committed? It is either specific toQuoted text (23 lines)
> > > major > > > > > > > > oversight, > > > > > > > > > > the wheel would be worth double what they are > > charging....the > > > > rest > > > > > > of > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > that good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Quoted text (12 lines)
> > and > > > > > > > > > > blame them on other computers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Quoted text (21 lines)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >"Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> writes:
It is not by design as in 'desired behaviour', it is just an effect
from having to design with a tolerable price in mind combined with
the fact that most consumers believe that stronger forces are
equivalent to better forces. A cheap and strong engine is likely
to be very notchy and a very notchy engine implies high static
friction in the wheel. High static friction in turn hides subtle
forces when the wheel is stationary.
If it were not for the pedals I would have bought the logitech wheel
to begin with since it seems to be a lot smoother. I.e. its forces are
weaker, but the internal friction is even smaller so when you add
things up it is capable of sending more information to the driver.
(Kind of like it being easier to hear what someone is whispering in
a quite room than it is to hear what someone is screaming in a bar.
It is not signal strength that counts but signal to noise ratio.)
> "GTX_SlotCar" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:OfSA4.2035$[email hidden]...
> > Ya, I tried the tests. Had to turn the Direction to 90� first at any
> > magnitude to feel anything.
Not very suprising since most ff wheels are not capable of
generating forwards - aft forces :-)
> > Also, I wasn't convinced that the test actually
> > proved dynamic range at all. He used a very low frequency which of course
> > doesn't transmit well at lower magnitudes or volumes (which is what this
> > really is). That's why you have a Bass Boost (Loudness on some) on your
> > stereo amplifier that kicks off at higher volume settings.
The frequency has not much to do with it, use whatever frequency(s) that
match the signals you want to percieve in the game. Few of the signals
I want from the game are high frequency, hence I used 10Hz for the tests.
(Of course for the complete test you have to test the ratio between the
strongest force available and the weakest force you can feel at
1/ a large number of frequencies and
2/ both with a moving wheel and with a stationary wheel.)
And loudness isn't there to compensate for a lousy frequency curve
in your amplifier, it is there to compensate for variation sensitivity
of the human ear at different sound levels and frequencies. Afaik, my hands
don't have that kind of non linear sensitivy to force input at different
force levels and frequencies.
> > [snip]
> > Still, I don't see dynamic range in this at all (no offense to Mats). When
> > you turn the wheel (motor) you collide with the wave pulses as each
> > armature pole passes by the magnets, so the force is stronger.
> > [snip]
You don't mean this is a good thing I hope? I'd rather have a ff wheel
that is transmitting the force programmed by the game to my hands instead
of adding friction, notches and other kinds of distorsions that makes
it feel much less like the wheel of a real life car.
_
Mats Lofkvist
[email hidden]
Quoted text (9 lines)
> P.S., Mats tests just illustrated to me that the wheel had decent response > to low-level forces, but that they there was a big difference between the > smallest force you could feel with the wheel still compared to if it was > turning. This seems to precisely mirror the situation in GPL. I believe > that if you could implement such a test on a MS-based wheel, you would not > experience the disparity--the smallest forces can be felt equally (although > maybe not so smoothly) whether the wheel is turning or stationary. I have > no idea why IForce would intentionally design things this way???? Any > ideas?Of course your points are all excellent Mats. I, too, would have bought the
Logitech if it had pedals suitable for GPL and a proper shifter. Do you
know for sure that it does not suffer from this problem? Someone mentioned
another IForce wheel that acts like the Ferrari and Slot claims the ActLabs
works that way too. Would it just be the lower friction in the Logi (which
it certainly has!!!) that would make the difference?
Marc.
"Mats Lofkvist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> writes:
>
> > P.S., Mats tests just illustrated to me that the wheel had decentresponse
> > to low-level forces, but that they there was a big difference betweenthe
> > smallest force you could feel with the wheel still compared to if it was
> > turning. This seems to precisely mirror the situation in GPL. Ibelieve
> > that if you could implement such a test on a MS-based wheel, you wouldnot
> > experience the disparity--the smallest forces can be felt equally(although
> > maybe not so smoothly) whether the wheel is turning or stationary. Ihave
course
> > > doesn't transmit well at lower magnitudes or volumes (which is whatthis
> > > really is). That's why you have a Bass Boost (Loudness on some) onyour
hands
> don't have that kind of non linear sensitivy to force input at different
> force levels and frequencies.
>
> > > [snip]
> > > Still, I don't see dynamic range in this at all (no offense to Mats).When
Quoted text (30 lines)
> > no idea why IForce would intentionally design things this way???? Any > > ideas? > > It is not by design as in 'desired behaviour', it is just an effect > from having to design with a tolerable price in mind combined with > the fact that most consumers believe that stronger forces are > equivalent to better forces. A cheap and strong engine is likely > to be very notchy and a very notchy engine implies high static > friction in the wheel. High static friction in turn hides subtle > forces when the wheel is stationary. > > If it were not for the pedals I would have bought the logitech wheel > to begin with since it seems to be a lot smoother. I.e. its forces are > weaker, but the internal friction is even smaller so when you add > things up it is capable of sending more information to the driver. > (Kind of like it being easier to hear what someone is whispering in > a quite room than it is to hear what someone is screaming in a bar. > It is not signal strength that counts but signal to noise ratio.) > > > > "GTX_SlotCar" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:OfSA4.2035$[email hidden]... > > > Ya, I tried the tests. Had to turn the Direction to 90� first at any > > > magnitude to feel anything. > > Not very suprising since most ff wheels are not capable of > generating forwards - aft forces :-) > > > > Also, I wasn't convinced that the test actually > > > proved dynamic range at all. He used a very low frequency which ofQuoted text (14 lines)
> > > stereo amplifier that kicks off at higher volume settings. > > The frequency has not much to do with it, use whatever frequency(s) that > match the signals you want to percieve in the game. Few of the signals > I want from the game are high frequency, hence I used 10Hz for the tests. > > (Of course for the complete test you have to test the ratio between the > strongest force available and the weakest force you can feel at > 1/ a large number of frequencies and > 2/ both with a moving wheel and with a stationary wheel.) > > And loudness isn't there to compensate for a lousy frequency curve > in your amplifier, it is there to compensate for variation sensitivity > of the human ear at different sound levels and frequencies. Afaik, myQuoted text (12 lines)
> > > you turn the wheel (motor) you collide with the wave pulses as each > > > armature pole passes by the magnets, so the force is stronger. > > > [snip] > > You don't mean this is a good thing I hope? I'd rather have a ff wheel > that is transmitting the force programmed by the game to my hands instead > of adding friction, notches and other kinds of distorsions that makes > it feel much less like the wheel of a real life car. > > _ > Mats Lofkvist > [email hidden]In time, the steering shaft loosens (unfortunately), the belts stretch and
the edges become slightly polished (glazed) from rubbing on the sides of the
pulleys, and everything in general gets looser and smoother. When I first
got the wheel, the shaft had no play. Now it can rock about 1/8" total. When
it was new, I could cock the wheel, set default spring as low as 25% (don't
remember exactly, but more than 20%) click 'always on', and the wheel would
barely center. Now it centers at 9%. The effects I felt at 1800 torque in
GPL I can now feel at 2000, which is why my settings have changed. Of
course, setting it to 2000 means I don't feel the motor pull (notches) as
much. This isn't a bad thing as long as the shaft doesn't get too loose.
But they take quite a pounding. In actuality, my Ferrari wheel, without FF
but with default spring on, is now smoother than my non-FF EXL500 wheel. The
thing is, it's like the way the government takes away your rights, little
bit by little bit, and you never realize it's happening. If it weren't for
the spring test and the fact that I have other wheels that I've been
continuously comparing, I might not even notice that the wheel was looser.
I'm sure that if you had a new Ferrari wheel with you now, you could feel
the difference between that and your old one. The Act Labs Force RS had
wider pulleys and belts, and a larger gear pitch (bigger teeth), and a
stronger motor which contribute to it's drag (resistence). It also has good
bearings on the shaft. It's not loosening up as fast as the Ferrari did, but
I have heard one instance where someone complained about the shaft getting
loose. It was one of the first units Act put out. I have put white lithium
grease on the side of the belts where they ride on the inner edge of the
pulleys, and this cut down on drag a bit. I can see the next question
coming, so I'll answer it now. 21% from the right and 19% from the left
(default spring to get to top center on the Act Labs wheel). I noticed that
the Ferrari wheel started feeling smoother after about 20 to 25 hours of
use, and was getting nice at 50 to 60 hours. The Force RS is taking longer,
as I would expect because of the bearing and width of the belts.
I'm sure the MS wheel, if it could work in I-Force as you suggest, would
respond the same way to weak forces and turning the wheel. It's physics, not
a wheel or I-Force thing. I think what would really make us (you, me and
everyone else) happy is if all the game programmers would use I-Force in the
programming and let us manipulate it with I-Force Studio to our liking.
That's the whole point of it. We could crank up the effects we want. MGPRS2
does this, I think, and so do a few others.
Slot
"Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:OBhB4.50264$[email hidden]...
> You can probably explain to me (us) what is happening that affects thewheel
> as it gets broken in. I have heard many talk about the ActLabs feeling
> different as the belts wear-in or something. Is this going to happen tothe
(although
course
> > doesn't transmit well at lower magnitudes or volumes (which is what this
> > really is). That's why you have a Bass Boost (Loudness on some) on your
> > stereo amplifier that kicks off at higher volume settings. So I used a
> > higher frequency and of course ended up feeling the waves at a muchlower
> > magnitude than he did. But that was part of his point, right? How lowyou
> > can set the magnitude and still feel it (regardless of the frequency).
> > Still, I don't see dynamic range in this at all (no offense to Mats).When
> > you turn the wheel (motor) you collide with the wave pulses as each
> armature
> > pole passes by the magnets, so the force is stronger. Well, I won't goon
> > about this.
> > Oh, the wheels felt almost identical. I'd bet that the Act wheel withit's
effect
> > > occurs. The forces going on to the grass and with one wheel on arevery
> > > strong, but going in a straight line with both wheels on the grass and
> the
> > > wheel dead centre, there is NO FF at all.
> > > It must be an IForce thing then - nothing to do with the Ferrariwheel.
a
out
order)
rotates
have
> a
> > > > very
> > > > > small increase in subtle ff as the wheel is rotated, the Ferrari a
> > > little
> > > > > more, and the Act even more (except the added drag on the Actmakes
have
> > > > several
> > > > > Logi products in the house. The LWFF has definate merits. Irealize
all
keep
wheel-only
> > > > > > phenomenon. I haven't used an ActLabs wheel at all and I'veonly
trade-offs
Even
feel
to
feedback
> > > > damping
> > > > > > > > > > coefficient
> > > > > > > > > > force_feedback_latency = 0.100000 ; forcefeedback
> > > > latency
> > > > > > > (secs)
> > > > > > > > > > max_steering_torque = 450.000000 ; steeringtorque
message
to
it
to
> > use
> > > as
> > > > > > > shifter
> > > > > > > > > > > buttons, look left/right or whatever you want.Overall,
drove
> > over
> > > > > it--a
> > > > > > > > nice
> > > > > > > > > > > subtle vibration that let you know you were on arougher
what
that
> > this
> > > > > > effect
> > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > throw you for a loop (I don't really care aboutdriving
too?
****************************************************************************
****************************************************************************
Quoted text (13 lines)
> Ferrari? What will/should happen? I certainly cannot tell any difference > yet in mine. > > Thanks, > > Marc. > > P.S., Mats tests just illustrated to me that the wheel had decent response > to low-level forces, but that they there was a big difference between the > smallest force you could feel with the wheel still compared to if it was > turning. This seems to precisely mirror the situation in GPL. I believe > that if you could implement such a test on a MS-based wheel, you would not > experience the disparity--the smallest forces can be felt equallyQuoted text (12 lines)
> maybe not so smoothly) whether the wheel is turning or stationary. I have > no idea why IForce would intentionally design things this way???? Any > ideas? > > > > "GTX_SlotCar" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:OfSA4.2035$[email hidden]... > > Ya, I tried the tests. Had to turn the Direction to 90� first at any > > magnitude to feel anything. Also, I wasn't convinced that the test > actually > > proved dynamic range at all. He used a very low frequency which ofQuoted text (16 lines)
> > slightly stronger motor would feel lower amplitudes when stationary in > time > > as the wheel loosens up.Turning the wheel was a little different, not > much, > > probably because it has a 7 pole armature where the Ferrari has 5. > > > > Slot > > > > > > > > "Iain Mackenzie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:mKQA4.796$5 > > [email hidden]... > > > OK, I've just tried the same thing with my old SC&T Ultimate Per4mer - > and > > > this is a wheel that has SERIOUS FF effects - and the exact sameQuoted text (18 lines)
> > > Iain > > > > > > Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:8VPA4.46665$[email hidden]... > > > > Remember Mats Lofkvist's tests with the IForce Studio utility? Did > you > > > try > > > > those? Both my (and his) Ferrari's failed the forces when going > > straight > > > > are anywhere near the forces when turning tests he so cleverly > devised. > > > > What are your results on the ActLabs and the Ferrari? > > > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > "GTX_SlotCar" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:lbPA4.1939$[email hidden]... > > > > > I don't know what else to say. I feel the feedback on the grass inQuoted text (16 lines)
> > > > > straight line at Monza (and anywhere else). IMO, the Ferrari wheel > is > > a > > > > > close copy (inside) of the Act Labs wheel (since Act came out > first). > > > > Geez, > > > > > I don't want to get into legal trouble for saying this, so let me > > state > > > > > again. In My Opinion the similarities are a remarkable, um, > > > coincidence. > > > > > The layouts are similar. The Act uses a slightly more powerful 7 > pole > > > > motor, > > > > > Ferrari a 5 pole motor. The Act has wider pullies and belts with > > coarser > > > > > teeth and feels to be about 3 lbs heavier, though I can't figureQuoted text (12 lines)
> > > where > > > > > the weight comes from. The Act uses better bearings on the shaft, > but > > > also > > > > > has more drag, probably caused by the larger belts. > > > > > I-Force is most likely what you're feeling unless your second > Ferrari > > > > wheel > > > > > is also defective, and based on what you're saying, it's either > > > defective > > > > or > > > > > your hands are numb. All the I-Force wheels (in good workingQuoted text (7 lines)
> > > should > > > > > give similar interpretations of I-Force commands. As far as subtle > ff > > > and > > > > > turning the wheel goes, it's an electo-machanical thing. When the > > > armature > > > > > is rotating you also feel the pull of the magnets as the armQuoted text (7 lines)
> > > > through > > > > > the magnetic fields, and you induce motion (assist the feedback). > The > > > > > stronger the motor, the greater the increase in subtle ff, > > counteracted, > > > > of > > > > > course, by drag. So all things being equal, the Logitech shouldQuoted text (17 lines)
> it > > > > less > > > > > noticable). > > > > > I guess the answer is that it's not a "Ferrari wheel-only > phenomenon". > > I > > > > > also doubt that it's an I-Force phenomenon. It's more likely > physical > > > > > phenomenon. I think the only thing you would gain from buying the > Act > > > Labs > > > > > wheel is a more sympathic tech support. I have nothing against > > Logitech > > > > > products. I'm typing on a Logi cordless now, have their cordless > > mouse, > > > > too. > > > > > My kids have their Internet keyboard and Mouseman+. In fact, weQuoted text (11 lines)
> > > that > > > > > people buy products for their own reasons, not mine. I have to > assume > > > that > > > > > when you make comments like "only a moron would buy...", it's done > out > > > of > > > > > frustration. I got help on ras to hookup my CH pedals with wheels. > > Tried > > > > it > > > > > for about 3 days and thought they felt very awkward. Yet look atQuoted text (10 lines)
> > the > > > > > people who are happy with the setup. Maybe that or a MSFF is just > the > > > > thing > > > > > for you. There's plenty of help on the net for building a stick > > shifter, > > > > > too. As far as returning your Ferrari wheel goes, all I meant is > that > > if > > > > > it's not defective there are only 2 alternatives. Return it, orQuoted text (11 lines)
> > it > > > > and > > > > > live with it, but you don't seem very happy doing that. > > > > > > > > > > Slot > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:8nNA4.79532$[email hidden]... > > > > > > The issue--please people-- is whether this is a FerrariQuoted text (24 lines)
> > > > tinkered > > > > > > with a Logitech. I only want to know whether this effects all > > IForce > > > > > wheels > > > > > > (in which case I'll avoid them like the plague) or just > Guillemot's > > > > > effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't need advice about whether I should return my (second) > > Ferrari > > > > > wheel. > > > > > > If Logitech had decent pedals and a shifter, only a moron would > buy > > > any > > > > > > other wheel--unless it is plagued by the dead FFB in a > straight-line > > > > > > syndrome. If it is, then everyone who complains about the > MS-based > > > > wheels > > > > > > better do a bit more research. No, they are not as "smooth" as > the > > > > > > Logitech, but they at least produce the correct forces at the > > > > appropriate > > > > > > points and times. I can make up my own mind about theQuoted text (14 lines)
> in > > > one > > > > > > wheel versus another. > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Iain Mackenzie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > news:_4HA4.74$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > I know exactly what Marc means. Unless you turn the damping > right > > > up, > > > > > > going > > > > > > > in a straight line on the grass - even slowly - has no FF.Quoted text (14 lines)
> > > > slightly > > > > > > > turn the wheel and the FF kicks in! > > > > > > > Try it at monza. > > > > > > > Iain > > > > > > > GTX_SlotCar <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > > news:Z2DA4.1854$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > return your wheel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Slot > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > > > news:v1CA4.75194$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > It has nothing to do with the damping settings...I canQuoted text (19 lines)
> > the > > > > > grass > > > > > > > just > > > > > > > > > fine when I am turning the wheel. The effects are plenty > > strong > > > > > when > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > adjust everything correctly. When the car is going > straight, > > > > there > > > > > is > > > > > > > > zero > > > > > > > > > FFB. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Aubrey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > > > > > news:entXjgHk$GA.251@cpmsnbbsa05... > > > > > > > > > > Try increasing the damping in the core.ini. That seemsQuoted text (17 lines)
> > > have > > > > a > > > > > > big > > > > > > > > > impact > > > > > > > > > > on how the grass feels, as well as tire grip and some > other > > > > > effects. > > > > > > > > > Don't > > > > > > > > > > ask me why. It's weird. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is what I'm currently using on my Act Labs wheel: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > allow_force_feedback = 1 ; Use FF if > device > > > has > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > force_feedback_damping = 300.000000 ; forceQuoted text (7 lines)
> > in > > > > N*in > > > > > > > > giving > > > > > > > > > > max device force > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote inQuoted text (9 lines)
> > > > > > > > > > news:GkyA4.45912$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After you get over the QC problems and the low > resolution > > > > > steering > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > backward drivers (you need to set spring forces to 0Quoted text (9 lines)
> > get > > > > full > > > > > > > FFB) > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > the fact that you can't find the blasted wheel in any > > > stores, > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > Ferrari > > > > > > > > > > > wheel ain't bad. The pedal resolution is excellent,Quoted text (7 lines)
> is > > > > > sturdy, > > > > > > > > feels > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > looks nice, has shifter and paddles (and even a set of > > > > redundant > > > > > > > > > > > pedal/paddles under the shifter paddles) and buttonsQuoted text (11 lines)
> > not > > > > > bad, > > > > > > > > except > > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > one colossal problem: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subtle FFB only works if you are turning the wheel!! > With > > > my > > > > > > > > Saitek/MS > > > > > > > > > > > wheel, I could feel the grass at a GPL track as IQuoted text (9 lines)
> > > > > surface, > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > wild canned stupidity like the grass in N3. Any way, > > these > > > > > sorts > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > subtle > > > > > > > > > > > lighter forces were readily apparent regardless ofQuoted text (27 lines)
> > you > > > > were > > > > > > > > doing. > > > > > > > > > > > With the Ferrari wheel, they can only be felt when you > are > > > > > turning > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > wheel--and they are there appropriately and feel fine. > If > > I > > > > > just > > > > > > > > drive > > > > > > > > > > > straight across the same grass, there is no FFB > whatsoever > > > > from > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > surface. > > > > > > > > > > > Of course, the grass is the easiest and fastest way to > > test > > > > > this, > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > happening all over the track whenever you are driving > > > > straight. > > > > > > > > Landing > > > > > > > > > > > after a jump (at Mosport, e.g.) is a crucial placeQuoted text (13 lines)
> > > across > > > > > > > grass, > > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > > > know). I don't even want to try to distract myself > while > > > > going > > > > > > > around > > > > > > > > > > > various courses attempting to figure out what is > > > > missing....but > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > annoying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do ACT Labs and Logitech wheels have this problem,Quoted text (44 lines)
> > In > > > > > other > > > > > > > > words, > > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > it a flaw of the IForce drivers or is it some hardware > > > > specific > > > > > > > boner > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > Guillemot has committed? It is either specific to > IForce, > > > > > because > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > MS > > > > > > > > > > > wheels don't have this problem, or it is Guillemot > alone. > > > If > > > > > they > > > > > > > > could > > > > > > > > > > > increase the steering resolution (double it) and fix > this > > > > major > > > > > > > > > oversight, > > > > > > > > > > > the wheel would be worth double what they are > > > charging....the > > > > > rest > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > that good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Quoted text (18 lines)
> > > > > > > > > > > Marc Collins > > > > > > > > > > > [email hidden] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Computers will never equal humans until they make > mistakes > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > blame them on other computers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Quoted text (23 lines)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Hi Mats,
> If it were not for the pedals I would have bought the logitech wheel
> to begin with since it seems to be a lot smoother. I.e. its forces are
> weaker, but the internal friction is even smaller so when you add
I think you may find that it feels notchy too. Some people have said so on
here. I'm not talking about the zipper feeling of the Ferrari belt, but the
notchiness that you feel turning the wheel under a load. Also, it has quite
a bit of friction because the steel cords are so tight. That's why Gmot and
Act went with the belts. I went to Best Buy this afternoon and gave a couple
cranks on the wheel of a LWFF. Of course it was new and didn't have power
on, but there was drag and it was not as smooth as the Ferrari wheel.
> Not very suprising since most ff wheels are not capable of
> generating forwards - aft forces :-)
Right, I didn't map my y-axis to my x-axis so I had to set the direction to
90�. I should have just said this instead. Sorry.
> And loudness isn't there to compensate for a lousy frequency curve
> in your amplifier, it is there to compensate for variation sensitivity
> of the human ear at different sound levels and frequencies.
I don't think I (didn't mean to) implied that a loudness control compensated
for a lousy frequency response. Bass Boost usually does just what it says,
and Loudness generally boosts both low and high frequencies where our
hearing range drops off.
>Afaik, my hands
> don't have that kind of non linear sensitivy to force input at different
> force levels and frequencies.
Actually, they do Mats. Your whole body tissue does, not just your ear
drums.
>
> > > [snip]
> > > Still, I don't see dynamic range in this at all (no offense to Mats).When
Of course I don't mean it's good. It happens, that's all. And I think we'd
all like to have a FF wheel without friction or notchiness. I don't know how
we could get rid of the friction, Mats, except maybe use as few pulleys as
possible, or stronger, thinner belts and spring loaded tension. Maybe even
gears, like the MSFF, only a much higher pitch. The motor could be made
smoother with more poles in the armature. I can feel the difference between
the Force RS motor with 7 poles and the Ferrari with 5. Maybe if we could
get up into the 20s it might hardly be noticable. More poles would also help
in feeling subtle FF at low amplitudes without turning the wheel. With fewer
poles, the small voltage from subtle feedback applied to the motor isn't
enough to start the armature. I suppose you could also use a form of
'momentum' control like the MRC model railroad transformers have, emitting
small pulses to start the motor.
We can hope!
Slot
