I *hate* Mexico(GPL)

I just can't seem to get anything at this track. I'm trying to get ready for a league race there, and I'm *way* off the pace. I just ran 14 laps there, and could only get as fast as 1:52.3 My times were pretty consistent, so I figure I'm just doing the same thing(s) wrong almost every time. I'd be happy if I could run consistent 1:49's. That's still off the pace, but I've never even broken 1:50 before. If anyone could check out my laps and give suggestions, it would be much appreciated. I also included the setup that I used. ftp://141.211.234.112/mexprac10_12_03.zip (2mb) Thanks. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -2.4 MoGPL rank +302.38 ChallengeRank +54.48 MoC +743.77 Hist. +82.82 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Try it in N2003. Not nearly as frustrating (no more concrete-filled tires!). Easier to drive. Less filling. Tastes great, too! "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I just can't seem to get anything at this track. I'm trying to get readyfor a > league race there, and I'm *way* off the pace. I just ran 14 laps there,and > could only get as fast as 1:52.3 > My times were pretty consistent, so I figure I'm just doing the samething(s) > wrong almost every time. I'd be happy if I could run consistent 1:49's. > That's still off the pace, but I've never even broken 1:50 before. Ifanyone > could check out my laps and give suggestions, it would be muchappreciated. I

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> also included the setup that I used. > ftp://141.211.234.112/mexprac10_12_03.zip (2mb) > Thanks. > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > Member > Screamers Racing League > IICC League > GPLRank -2.4 MoGPL rank +302.38 > ChallengeRank +54.48 MoC +743.77 > Hist. +82.82 MoH in progress > N2k3 rank:in progress > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

I'm not any faster so I can't give driving tips, but what I would suggest is download a hotlap for the track and compare it to yours in GPLRA. This always seems to help me. Use the telemetry view to figure out where you are slower, then look at the race line view to see if your line is wrong, and finally go watch the replay in that area to see what he is doing different. Also merging your replay with the hotlap is a very useful way to see what is going on. You can use the time offset feature to try and get your lap to match up with the hotlap at the position at which you are interested. Very useful. "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I just can't seem to get anything at this track. I'm trying to get readyfor a > league race there, and I'm *way* off the pace. I just ran 14 laps there,and > could only get as fast as 1:52.3 > My times were pretty consistent, so I figure I'm just doing the samething(s) > wrong almost every time. I'd be happy if I could run consistent 1:49's. > That's still off the pace, but I've never even broken 1:50 before. Ifanyone > could check out my laps and give suggestions, it would be muchappreciated. I

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> also included the setup that I used. > ftp://141.211.234.112/mexprac10_12_03.zip (2mb) > Thanks. > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > Member > Screamers Racing League > IICC League > GPLRank -2.4 MoGPL rank +302.38 > ChallengeRank +54.48 MoC +743.77 > Hist. +82.82 MoH in progress > N2k3 rank:in progress > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

I also "hate" Mexico. I don't know what it is about this track, but I just can't find any kind of rythm, no matter how many laps I grind out. I always feel like I'm thinking about the next corner instead of just driving.... Oh well... Mike

In article <odmib.16158$[email hidden]>, "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> writes: >Try it in N2003. Not nearly as frustrating (no more concrete-filled >tires!). Easier to drive. Less filling. Tastes great, too! I never bought Noonan's converter... I'm a worse driver in NASCAR, remember? Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -2.4 MoGPL rank +302.38 ChallengeRank +54.48 MoC +743.77 Hist. +82.82 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>I'm not any faster so I can't give driving tips, but what I would suggest is >download a hotlap for the track and compare it to yours in GPLRA. This >always seems to help me. Use the telemetry view to figure out where you are >slower, then look at the race line view to see if your line is wrong, and >finally go watch the replay in that area to see what he is doing different. >Also merging your replay with the hotlap is a very useful way to see what is >going on. You can use the time offset feature to try and get your lap to >match up with the hotlap at the position at which you are interested. Very >useful.

You know, I've tried that in the past, and haven't been able to learn anything from it. All I see is that I'm slower EVERYWHERE. Part of the problem is not being able to hold the same line as others. Even in turns where I *am* on the same line, the other car brakes later, goes in faster, gets back in the gas faster, and is gone by the end of the next straight. So in the rare cases that I can see why the other car is faster, I still can't do it. Sigh...I guess I'll try again...(definition of insanity) Eldred - gotta search for all the hotlap sites again... :-( -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -2.4 MoGPL rank +302.38 ChallengeRank +54.48 MoC +743.77 Hist. +82.82 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On 12 Oct 2003 23:46:00 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: >I just can't seem to get anything at this track. I'm trying to get ready for a >league race there, and I'm *way* off the pace. I just ran 14 laps there, and >could only get as fast as 1:52.3 I'm not much better, running high 49's, but the places I seem to lose the most time are any left/right combo (such as the esses). There are a bunch of places where you need to compromise the entrance in order to carry enough speed through the next corner and onto the next straight Jason

One thing that might help is to look at the benchmark instead of a lap that is 6 seconds faster. I did a quick comparison between the benchmark and your fastest lap and it appears like you could improve your time by working on the entrance to the first part of the esses (look at the line, Arnao practically straightlines it), and by powering out onto the back straight better, which again is largely line. Not that I can do any better, this is just what I could see from GPLRA. Just isolate those two things and work on them and forget about the rest, see if it helps. "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > You know, I've tried that in the past, and haven't been able to learnanything > from it. All I see is that I'm slower EVERYWHERE. Part of the problem isnot > being able to hold the same line as others. Even in turns where I *am* onthe > same line, the other car brakes later, goes in faster, gets back in thegas > faster, and is gone by the end of the next straight. So in the rare casesthat

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> I can see why the other car is faster, I still can't do it. > Sigh...I guess I'll try again...(definition of insanity) > > Eldred - gotta search for all the hotlap sites again... :-( > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > Member > Screamers Racing League > IICC League > GPLRank -2.4 MoGPL rank +302.38 > ChallengeRank +54.48 MoC +743.77 > Hist. +82.82 MoH in progress > N2k3 rank:in progress > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I just can't seem to get anything at this track. I'm trying to get readyfor a > league race there, and I'm *way* off the pace. I just ran 14 laps there,and > could only get as fast as 1:52.3 > My times were pretty consistent, so I figure I'm just doing the samething(s) > wrong almost every time. I'd be happy if I could run consistent 1:49's. > That's still off the pace, but I've never even broken 1:50 before. Ifanyone > could check out my laps and give suggestions, it would be muchappreciated. I > also included the setup that I used. > ftp://141.211.234.112/mexprac10_12_03.zip (2mb) Concentrate on your corner exit speed. There are several places, most notably your line through the tight right-hander before the hairpin, where your entry line severely compromises your exit speed. At Mexico there are several 'combination' corners. You need to treat the pair (or sequence) of corners as one unit, and be prepared to compromise your line through the first corner to give you a better exit from the last, and therefore maintain a higher average speed down the following straight. In the case of the S just before the hairpin, hug the left side as you exit the first, sweeping left-hander, and turn in to a late apex for the tight right-hander. You should be able to accelerate through the second corner and carry more speed up the straight to the hairpin. This also applies to the long series of esses, and you may find it helpful to study an 'alien' lap to see the line they take. You may not be able to match their speed, but you can use their line to good effect. Remember the most important corners are the ones leading onto a straight. As far as your setup is concerned it's definitely an alien setup ;-) Change the diff from 60/45/3 (way too stiff imo) to 60/45/1 (reduce the clutches) and give it another go. You should find that you can plant the gas a little more easily out of the corners. If you find that the back end now wants to step out too much when you lift off the gas, try 60/30/1. If it doesn't step out enough, try 60/60/1 or even 60/85/1 (I use this). Finally, disable the low-speed steering help and try to get used to a quicker steering ratio. Yours is currently set to 14:1. You need at least 12:1 to make it round the hairpin without the steering aid. I use 10:1. With the looser diff this should be easier to control, so get the diff right first. Malc.

Hooray....another "Mexico City" hater! :) Since the day I first tried this circuit (when was that....1998?) I have steered clear of it. Even when running a season championship against the AI, I have usually crashed within the first quarter of the race....and always into a bloody concrete tyre! Bruce. "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I just can't seem to get anything at this track.

> I just can't seem to get anything at this track. I'm trying to get readyfor a > league race there, and I'm *way* off the pace. I just ran 14 laps there,and > could only get as fast as 1:52.3 > My times were pretty consistent, so I figure I'm just doing the samething(s) > wrong almost every time. I'd be happy if I could run consistent 1:49's. > That's still off the pace, but I've never even broken 1:50 before. Ifanyone > could check out my laps and give suggestions, it would be muchappreciated. I > also included the setup that I used. > ftp://141.211.234.112/mexprac10_12_03.zip (2mb) > Thanks. > > Eldred First corner and last corner are very important, concentrate on them for a bit...brake late and try to take the speed with you into the turn. And dont go to fast throught the twistys, its easy to lose speed by goping faster than you should.

You CAN'T be a worse driver in N2003! Not on the road circuits, anyway. The Cup cars, at least, are far more forgiving - you can get as out of shape as a Dali watch and still save it. GPL requires far greater car control, concentration, and dedication. IMO. "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <odmib.16158$[email hidden]>, "Steve Smith" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Try it in N2003. Not nearly as frustrating (no more concrete-filled > >tires!). Easier to drive. Less filling. Tastes great, too! > > I never bought Noonan's converter... I'm a worse driver in NASCAR,

remember?

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> > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > Member > Screamers Racing League > IICC League > GPLRank -2.4 MoGPL rank +302.38 > ChallengeRank +54.48 MoC +743.77 > Hist. +82.82 MoH in progress > N2k3 rank:in progress > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 10:31:53 +0100, "Dan_Leach" <[email hidden]> wrote: >First corner and last corner are very important, concentrate on them for a >bit...brake late and try to take the speed with you into the turn. >And dont go to fast throught the twistys, its easy to lose speed by goping >faster than you should. > Even the CART guys yesterday took it easy through there (one of the few parts of the track which remain nearly identical to the 60's config.). John DiFool

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>Concentrate on your corner exit speed. There are several places, most >notably your line through the tight right-hander before the hairpin, where >your entry line severely compromises your exit speed. > >At Mexico there are several 'combination' corners. You need to treat the >pair (or sequence) of corners as one unit, and be prepared to compromise >your line through the first corner to give you a better exit from the last, >and therefore maintain a higher average speed down the following straight. >In the case of the S just before the hairpin, hug the left side as you exit >the first, sweeping left-hander, and turn in to a late apex for the tight >right-hander. You should be able to accelerate through the second corner and >carry more speed up the straight to the hairpin.

Then I'd have to go a lot slower in the lefthander...

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>This also applies to the long series of esses, and you may find it helpful >to study an 'alien' lap to see the line they take. You may not be able to >match their speed, but you can use their line to good effect. > >Remember the most important corners are the ones leading onto a straight. > > >As far as your setup is concerned it's definitely an alien setup ;-)

Really? I've driven Ehnstrom's setups before. I used his Watkins setup for second place finishes on two consecutive nights. I guess it's just specific tracks with a specific driving style. >Change the diff from 60/45/3 (way too stiff imo) to 60/45/1 (reduce the >clutches) and give it another go. You should find that you can plant the gas >a little more easily out of the corners. If you find that the back end now >wants to step out too much when you lift off the gas, try 60/30/1. If it >doesn't step out enough, try 60/60/1 or even 60/85/1 (I use this). Yuck, setup changes? I think I've built a mental block against mucking with the setups, because I've never been able to improve anything. >Finally, disable the low-speed steering help and try to get used to a >quicker steering ratio. Yours is currently set to 14:1. You need at least >12:1 to make it round the hairpin without the steering aid. I use 10:1. With >the looser diff this should be easier to control, so get the diff right >first. I forgot all about the steering hack. I believe I'd disabled that before my drive crashed. I'll have to remember to check that when I get home... Thanks. I'll see what I can do. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -2.4 MoGPL rank +302.38 ChallengeRank +54.48 MoC +743.77 Hist. +82.82 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

> >First corner and last corner are very important, concentrate on them for a >bit...brake late and try to take the speed with you into the turn. >And dont go to fast throught the twistys, its easy to lose speed by goping >faster than you should. I'm already braking as late as I can without crashing... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -2.4 MoGPL rank +302.38 ChallengeRank +54.48 MoC +743.77 Hist. +82.82 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

>The Cup cars, at least, are far more forgiving - you can get as out of shape >as a Dali watch and still save it. That's a great line!<g> I don't believe it, but it's damn funny... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -2.4 MoGPL rank +302.38 ChallengeRank +54.48 MoC +743.77 Hist. +82.82 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"EldredP" wrote...

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> I just can't seem to get anything at this track. I'm trying > to get ready for a league race there, and I'm *way* off the > pace. I just ran 14 laps there, and could only get as fast > as 1:52.3 > My times were pretty consistent, so I figure I'm just doing > the same thing(s) wrong almost every time. I'd be happy if > I could run consistent 1:49's.

That's a big leap in laptime. You'll be more comfortable trying to get late 1m50's - low 1m51's > That's still off the pace, but I've never even broken 1:50 > before. If anyone could check out my laps and give > suggestions, it would be much appreciated. I also included > the setup that I used. > ftp://141.211.234.112/mexprac10_12_03.zip (2mb) > Thanks. The quick fix is to use the Lotus. It's just a lot easier to go quickly at Mexico in it, due to it's great handling and punchy V8 engine. I've looked at your laps and, basically, you're not doing a lot wrong IMO. You're just spending at least half of your time chasing the car rather than attacking the circuit. Make no mistake, if you want to take the Ferrari below 1m50s, you're going to have to attack the circuit. It's a bit like the instructions for flying from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: you have to throw the car at the concrete tyres and, at the last possible moment, miss. The setup you included is rubbish, for the simple reason it's not allowing you to go as fast as you want. It has you braking earlier and slowing more than you think you should be doing and it doesn't allow you to get into the gas when you want. In the laps it's clear that every time you try to push a section the car either overrotates or twitches as you get on the gas. This setup is hampering you, not helping you. At Mexico I find it easier to have a fairly stable setup and just carry the car a little when necessary, than to have a finely honed setup wich gets really out of shape if something unexpected happens. My setup is just my basic setup for the Ferrari with softer anti-roll bars and the cambers and tyre pressures adjusted for the circuit. Anyhow, haven't got much time to get into details with you at the moment, so I did a couple sample laps and included the setup I'm using here: http://users.skynet.be/bs175993/MEXICO_LAPS.zip It's been a long time since I've driven the Ferrari at Mexico, so a couple errors crept in, but I think you'll get the general idea... any tips on breaking into 1m48's appreciated. As you can see, I'm more or less doing what you to, only more decisively. More like: "Go there!" instead of "this way, little more... that's it, now... whoa!". <g> Jan. =---

Bruce Kennewell wrote:

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> Hooray....another "Mexico City" hater! :) > > Since the day I first tried this circuit (when was that....1998?) I have > steered clear of it. > Even when running a season championship against the AI, I have usually > crashed within the first quarter of the race....and always into a bloody > concrete tyre!

Ah, well, you see you're doing it wrong, mate. :) I know exactly why you hit that tyre, and what you need to do to not hit it or any other! It's very simple, you need to borrow a technique from back country skiing. A noob BC skier, you see, will at some stage -have- to ski in-between trees. If he is lucky, he will told the first golden rule about skiing in these conditions. If he isn't told, you see, he will very soon find himself rather untidily wrapped around one! If I'm with a beginner, I never tell 'em until after their first bit of tree luv. I usually get them to follow me on the first pitch, making sure I take a shallow line, thus ensuring a low speed impact. I then ski off, effortlessly threading myself in-between the evergreens, all the time waiting for the tell-tale sounds of small twigs snapping, followed by the thud of human flesh against tree bark, ending with the rattle of skis as they separate from their owner, and, of course, the odd naughty word. Oh the joy of skiing through trees! Anyway, never, ever look at the trees you are skiing between, for, like a giant magnet, they will pull you to them... with the inevitable result. No, dear boy, you must look at the GAPS between them! Then you will be drawn to them, and not the wood! So at Mex, don't look at the rubber, look at the line -through- the corner, and enjoy Mexico for the excellent track it is! Now go and record 50 laps, post the reply in the binary, and if it's not done by sunrise, I'll cut your ball off! -- Gerry Aitken ...and a friend shall lose a friend's hammer. - Book of Cyril, chapter 6, verse 16 This e-mail has been scanned for all known viruses by a fish called Colin.

In article <[email hidden]>, EldredP <[email hidden]> writes

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>I just can't seem to get anything at this track. I'm trying to get ready for a >league race there, and I'm *way* off the pace. I just ran 14 laps there, and >could only get as fast as 1:52.3 >My times were pretty consistent, so I figure I'm just doing the same thing(s) >wrong almost every time. I'd be happy if I could run consistent 1:49's. >That's still off the pace, but I've never even broken 1:50 before. If anyone >could check out my laps and give suggestions, it would be much >appreciated. I >also included the setup that I used.

Hi Eldred, Just checked out your laps and also tried out the Ferrari setup you included, using 9 laps of fuel for my laps. If you were running with all that fuel then that ain't bad. A couple of areas where you may find a little more time: The first long right-hander you change down to 3rd pretty early. I was able to change down to 4th only and then carry the speed through until I changed quickly down to 2nd from 4th at the same time you were changing down to 2nd. The last 180 degree right-hander before the S/F line. Point your car well inside the driving line shown, almost towards the first tyre, and then let the car drift back up through the corner so that it ends up on the driving line. Also try using 4th when accelerating out of the corner. I found that using 3rd caused the car to over-rotate (something this setup does quite easily) when accelerating. Using 4th prevents this from happening which should allow you to be much faster out of the corner ready for the long straight. One thing I noticed with this setup, as already mentioned, was that it does over-rotate quite easily once you've lifted off the throttle and you're turning in. To stop this over-rotation, just blip the throttle when you feel the car doing this. Not too much. This should help in corners such as the first where taking a lot of speed in and trying to get the car turning in so that it stays on the driving line can cause a lot of oversteer. Just hold a little throttle, whilst still braking to stop yourself drifting too wide, and hopefully the car should stay pointing in the right direction. One general point. This track seems to have plenty of corners where an early turn in helps (well inside the driving line), and then letting the car drift a little as you apply the throttle. HTH PS: I was able to go only a little bit quicker. Certainly not under 1:50 though. -- Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :) GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77

I tried the setup and found it to be a bit too loose under exit power. This might also because I haven't driven GPL in a looong time. Anyway, I changed the diff to 85/45 like many of my old race setups used to be and immediately got 1:48's because I didn't need to fight the car so much. This might make the potential of the setup slower but will make it easier to drive and actually result in better times for many I think. In T1 you can break a lot later as long as you don't switch gears lower too early as this will make car hard to control even with good simultaneous brake and power. Taking the chicane and a few of the corners in 2nd in stead of 1st gear will also make exit easier and you will get rid of oversteer from rear wheel locking when you get off the power. Also break early for the hairpin and take it tighter. Turn in early into corners on the "mickey mouse" section and keep closer to the inside of the turns. Turn in early as you do after the "tyres" but be patient to apply power or you will get understeer and push too wide and have to get off the throttle. Sometimes driving the corners slower will make you able to attack the short straights between them better. Also try driving the last corner in 4th instead of 3rd and you will be able to stand on the trottle earlier without fighting power oversteer... Kari "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I just can't seem to get anything at this track. I'm trying to get readyfor a > league race there, and I'm *way* off the pace. I just ran 14 laps there,and > could only get as fast as 1:52.3 > My times were pretty consistent, so I figure I'm just doing the samething(s) > wrong almost every time. I'd be happy if I could run consistent 1:49's. > That's still off the pace, but I've never even broken 1:50 before. Ifanyone > could check out my laps and give suggestions, it would be muchappreciated. I

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> also included the setup that I used. > ftp://141.211.234.112/mexprac10_12_03.zip (2mb) > Thanks. > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > Member > Screamers Racing League > IICC League > GPLRank -2.4 MoGPL rank +302.38 > ChallengeRank +54.48 MoC +743.77 > Hist. +82.82 MoH in progress > N2k3 rank:in progress > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On 13 Oct 2003 17:01:19 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: >Then I'd have to go a lot slower in the lefthander... Exactly. There are several places like that at Mexico, where taking the first turn more slowly than seems correct will give you a better laptime than going in fast will because you will have a better line through the next corner and onto the ensuing straight. Jason

>Blush!< "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > >The Cup cars, at least, are far more forgiving - you can get as out ofshape

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> >as a Dali watch and still save it. > > That's a great line!<g> I don't believe it, but it's damn funny... > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > Member > Screamers Racing League > IICC League > GPLRank -2.4 MoGPL rank +302.38 > ChallengeRank +54.48 MoC +743.77 > Hist. +82.82 MoH in progress > N2k3 rank:in progress > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, Gerry Aitken <[email hidden]> writes: >Now go and record 50 laps, post the reply in the binary, and if it's not >done by sunrise, I'll cut your ball off! Wow - I'm glad he was talking to you and not me, Bruce...<g> Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -2.4 MoGPL rank +302.38 ChallengeRank +54.48 MoC +743.77 Hist. +82.82 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <6F51ZCA5$wi$[email hidden]>, Peter Ives <[email hidden]> writes: >The first long right-hander you change down to 3rd pretty early. I was >able to change down to 4th only and then carry the speed through until I >changed quickly down to 2nd from 4th at the same time you were changing >down to 2nd. Without spinning the car? Hmm...me needs more practice, then.

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>The last 180 degree right-hander before the S/F line. Point your car >well inside the driving line shown, almost towards the first tyre, and >then let the car drift back up through the corner so that it ends up on >the driving line. Also try using 4th when accelerating out of the >corner. I found that using 3rd caused the car to over-rotate (something >this setup does quite easily) when accelerating. Using 4th prevents >this from happening which should allow you to be much faster out of the >corner ready for the long straight.

I'm only in 4th before I get to that turn. If I didn't downshift, the car would bog down. Either that, or I'd be going too fast because I couldn't just my speed with a lower-pitch engine note. I've had problems with that before - leave it in a gear higher to lower wheelspin, then find it impossible to get the right speed.

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>One thing I noticed with this setup, as already mentioned, was that it >does over-rotate quite easily once you've lifted off the throttle and >you're turning in. To stop this over-rotation, just blip the throttle >when you feel the car doing this. Not too much. This should help in >corners such as the first where taking a lot of speed in and trying to >get the car turning in so that it stays on the driving line can cause a >lot of oversteer. Just hold a little throttle, whilst still braking to >stop yourself drifting too wide, and hopefully the car should stay >pointing in the right direction.

As Jan said, I should probably leave this setup behind... >One general point. This track seems to have plenty of corners where an >early turn in helps (well inside the driving line), and then letting the >car drift a little as you apply the throttle. It has to be my perception of the track. At Rouen, I always turn in too EARLY. This one(and Silverstone), I guess I turn in too late. I wonder what's going on here...? Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -2.4 MoGPL rank +302.38 ChallengeRank +54.48 MoC +743.77 Hist. +82.82 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <T4Cib.75715$[email hidden]>, "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>"EldredP" wrote... >> I just can't seem to get anything at this track. I'm trying >> to get ready for a league race there, and I'm *way* off the >> pace. I just ran 14 laps there, and could only get as fast >> as 1:52.3 >> My times were pretty consistent, so I figure I'm just doing >> the same thing(s) wrong almost every time. I'd be happy if >> I could run consistent 1:49's. > >That's a big leap in laptime. You'll be more comfortable trying to get late >1m50's - low 1m51's >

Well, my PB is a 1:50.05 before(long ago), but I don't know what setup I used.I went back to an AH setup later yesterday and ran 52's fairly consistently, with 2 or 3 51's. 49's are still my goal, and it's less than a second faster than my PB.

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>> That's still off the pace, but I've never even broken 1:50 >> before. If anyone could check out my laps and give >> suggestions, it would be much appreciated. I also included >> the setup that I used. >> ftp://141.211.234.112/mexprac10_12_03.zip (2mb) >> Thanks. > >The quick fix is to use the Lotus. It's just a lot easier to go quickly at >Mexico in it, due to it's great handling and punchy V8 engine. > >I've looked at your laps and, basically, you're not doing a lot wrong IMO. >You're just spending at least half of your time chasing the car rather than >attacking the circuit.

That's normal at ANY track...

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>Make no mistake, if you want to take the Ferrari below 1m50s, you're going >to have to attack the circuit. It's a bit like the instructions for flying >from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: you have to throw the car at the >concrete tyres and, at the last possible moment, miss. > >The setup you included is rubbish, for the simple reason it's not allowing >you to go as fast as you want.

Then they're ALL rubbish!<g> >It has you braking earlier and slowing more >than you think you should be doing and it doesn't allow you to get into the >gas when you want. In the laps it's clear that every time you try to push a >section the car either overrotates or twitches as you get on the gas. This >setup is hampering you, not helping you. Everyone says that the 'stable' setups are slow - you need the twitchy setups to get the speed. Now it sounds like you're saying the opposite... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -2.4 MoGPL rank +302.38 ChallengeRank +54.48 MoC +743.77 Hist. +82.82 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Bruce Kennewell wrote: > Hooray....another "Mexico City" hater! :) Oh well, I don't think they're too hard to find, I suspect the majority of drivers don't really like this track (myself included even if I finally got negative there). > Since the day I first tried this circuit (when was that....1998?) I have > steered clear of it. It wouldn't be so bad if these tyres weren't there and the esses were smoothed way out. Then it could've been quite fun, actually... But alas, some daft designer decided otherwise. Gimme Reims over Mexico any day! ;) Regards, Rudy (GPLRank -11)

jason moyer wrote: >>Then I'd have to go a lot slower in the lefthander... > Exactly. There are several places like that at Mexico, where taking > the first turn more slowly than seems correct will give you a better Yeah, I found I was faster (well, 1:49.5ish) after hopping from Eagle into Lotus and then just keeping it in 1st and staying to the inside in a lot of the Esses instead of trying to wrestle it through in as high a gear as possible... Regards, Rudy (GPLRank -11)

EldredP wrote: > Everyone says that the 'stable' setups are slow - you need the twitchy setups > to get the speed. Now it sounds like you're saying the opposite... He's right, stable needn't be slower, although it depends on driving style (and alien DNA). Remember those setups I sent you? These I found better because they were *stable* and handled well without losing speed bigtime, thus making me faster around most tracks. (Today I adapted a stable setup to the Ferrari, tried it on Silverstone because I just hadn't got that car negative there and to my surprise bumped my pb down to an 1:28.6, just because it handled well enough to allow good early exits and such.) Regards, Rudy (GPLRank -11)

Well I guess I am in the minority, I love this track. And I'm dog slow here, so if I can love it anybody can. As one of the announcers said during Sunday's Mexican CART race, it's the Mexican Suzuka. It has everything - a long straight, an intense technical section, and a high speed banked turn. I think people just hate it because they get too hung up on laptime. Forget about laptime for a while and just drive it, it's a blast. "Ruud Dingemans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bmfuhk$h5g$[email hidden]...

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> Bruce Kennewell wrote: > > > Hooray....another "Mexico City" hater! :) > > Oh well, I don't think they're too hard to find, I suspect the majority > of drivers don't really like this track (myself included even if I > finally got negative there). > > > > Since the day I first tried this circuit (when was that....1998?) I have > > steered clear of it. > > It wouldn't be so bad if these tyres weren't there and the esses were > smoothed way out. Then it could've been quite fun, actually... But alas, > some daft designer decided otherwise. > > Gimme Reims over Mexico any day! ;) > > Regards, Rudy > (GPLRank -11) >

Haqsau wrote: > Well I guess I am in the minority, I love this track. And I'm dog slow > here, so if I can love it anybody can. Yeah but Haqs, it's because you're dog slow you're lovin' it - like any track, it only gets to you when you need to drive it FAST ;) (And boy, Mexico bites bigtime in that particular department.) > I think people just hate it because they get too hung up on laptime. Forget > about laptime for a while and just drive it, it's a blast. Yep... we're simracers, I'm trying like heck to stay ahead of the other guy in the Esses, but heck let's forget about laptimes and go enjoy the scenery <g> >>>Hooray....another "Mexico City" hater! :) Regards, Rudy (GPLRank -11)

I have found that if I stop thinking about laptime and just drive a track as smoothly as I can for as many laps as I can stand, that my speed gradually gets faster. I have set PB's this way. Although probably not at Mexico. Still, I think the only part that is not fun is turn 1, the rest of it is great. Plus if you decide that you hate a track you are creating a mental block for yourself. Decide that you love it and I think you will get more positive results. "Ruud Dingemans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bmilga$k21$[email hidden]... > > Yep... we're simracers, I'm trying like heck to stay ahead of the other > guy in the Esses, but heck let's forget about laptimes and go enjoy the > scenery <g> >

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <6F51ZCA5$wi$[email hidden]>, Peter Ives > <[email hidden]> writes: > It has to be my perception of the track. At Rouen, I always turn in tooEARLY. > This one(and Silverstone), I guess I turn in too late. I wonder what'sgoing > on here...? That's the crappy default racing line on the track - I find I follow them rather than take the line I know is fastest - Kinda like the tree analogy from Gerry Aitken above... David Corless --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.525 / Virus Database: 322 - Release Date: 9/10/2003

In article <[email hidden]>, "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> writes: >Plus if you decide that you hate a track you are creating a mental >block for yourself. Decide that you love it and I think you will get more >positive results. Disagree. I've had fun races there, don't get me wrong. But it hasn't increased my speed one bit. I absolutely love Kyalami - I still suck at it... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -2.4 MoGPL rank +302.38 ChallengeRank +54.48 MoC +743.77 Hist. +82.82 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> writes: >Well I guess I am in the minority, I love this track. And I'm dog slow >here, so if I can love it anybody can. As one of the announcers said during >Sunday's Mexican CART race, it's the Mexican Suzuka. It has everything - a >long straight, an intense technical section, and a high speed banked turn. >I think people just hate it because they get too hung up on laptime. Forget >about laptime for a while and just drive it, it's a blast. <slaps Haqsau with a trout> :-) I *have* to worry about laptimes - I'm second-to-last on my league's practice timesheets. If I have to drive 35 laps bring that far off the pace that does NOT bode well for a fun night... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -2.4 MoGPL rank +302.38 ChallengeRank +54.48 MoC +743.77 Hist. +82.82 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <grljb.14$[email hidden]>, "David Corless" <david.corless.no.spam[@]utseduau> writes:

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>"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> In article <6F51ZCA5$wi$[email hidden]>, Peter Ives >> <[email hidden]> writes: > >> It has to be my perception of the track. At Rouen, I always turn in too >EARLY. >> This one(and Silverstone), I guess I turn in too late. I wonder what's >going >> on here...? > >That's the crappy default racing line on the track - I find I follow them >rather than take the line I know is fastest - Kinda like the tree analogy >from Gerry Aitken above...

No, I mean that I always turn early(inside) of the line that *is* there - Silverstone I'm always turning late(outside). Even though I'm really trying to hit it in both cases. That's just something about the way I see those tracks. Nevermind if the line is good or bad. Although my teammate just told me that the line in the esses sucks, which I didn't know before. Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -2.4 MoGPL rank +302.38 ChallengeRank +54.48 MoC +743.77 Hist. +82.82 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

<ducks trout> Often practice time is more productive if you forget about lap time and have a little fun with it. Sometimes concentrating on rhythm or smoothness will allow you to learn some things that you wouldn't learn otherwise, because your brain doesn't process data as well when you are tense or trying really hard. You learn things about the track and the line by playing with it and enjoying it. "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > <slaps Haqsau with a trout> :-) > > I *have* to worry about laptimes - I'm second-to-last on my league'spractice > timesheets. If I have to drive 35 laps bring that far off the pace thatdoes

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> NOT bode well for a fun night... > > Eldred > -- > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > Member > Screamers Racing League > IICC League > GPLRank -2.4 MoGPL rank +302.38 > ChallengeRank +54.48 MoC +743.77 > Hist. +82.82 MoH in progress > N2k3 rank:in progress > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP wrote: > Silverstone I'm always turning late(outside). Even though I'm really trying to > hit it in both cases. That's just something about the way I see those tracks. I noticed I hit the first lefthander at Silver better (in GPL) if I turned in at the point where the groove gets dark. The other ones I think I mainly look at the inside curbs, far away - when they turn white, I turn in and aim almost straight for 'em. Huge amounts of toe-out helped too. Turns in great. (Maybe I lose a bit on the straights but since timely turn-in is so important on tracks like Silver and Zandvoort I can certainly live with that.) Regards, Rudy (GPLRank -11)

"EldredP" wrote... > > <snip> > > Well, my PB is a 1:50.05 before(long ago), but I don't know what > setup I used. I went back to an AH setup later yesterday and ran > 52's fairly consistently, with 2 or 3 51's. 49's are still my > goal, and it's less than a second faster than my PB. Fair enough... how come you did not build on the setup that gave you your PB, tho'? > > <snip> > That's normal at ANY track... No it's not. "You don't have to put up with an ill-handling racecar." -Carrol Smith. > > <snip> > Then they're ALL rubbish! <g> Possibly, yes. It's clear you're dealing with a set of problems that is alien to your average simracer. Until you get a setup where you can truly say the limiting factor is your driving as opposed to the car not being adapted to your driving there is no way you can make a decision to the effect of "if I change the car like this, I might be able to take turn X like that and go faster". Not being able to drive supposedly fast setup Y is no reason to change your driving. Unless you can link a particular difference in approach to a setting change on the car, you're never going to move away from chasing the car/setup. It's a two way deal... it starts with defining where the car is stopping you from making a positive driving change. Then you determine which setting might help you accomplish the desired change and how, coincidingly, you have to change your approach to make it show up on the clock. Then you go out and try it for a number of laps (10 is a good mark for your average length track) and evaluate the change in itself, but also how it affects the other sections of the track. Conclusions from this testing session will lead you to new ideas and changes and so on and so forth. This is the fascinating thing about "true" sims... the learning never stops. Working one track can give you an insight on how you like your car to handle and this can be used to great effect on other tracks as you strive to get a minimum difference in feel using a minimum difference in settin at any given track. A change that only works at one track is worth keeping in mind for that venue, but I feel one should strive for a basic chassis setup which varies very little across venues. Familiarity is the key to speed. > > <snip> > Everyone says that the 'stable' setups are slow - you need the > twitchy setups to get the speed. Now it sounds like you're > saying the opposite... Speed is not really related to setup, setup only permits you to reach your true speed. Like I said, it's an evolutionary process. You should always drive the setup that allows you to push to reach your best speed at this moment in time. Then you change the setup so you can reach it without exerting yourself lap after lap. In the same way it's not fun to drive a too twitchy setup for 35 laps, it's no fun driving your guts out for just to get where you can be for 35 laps either. Speed is something you need to have "on tap" for when you need it, but racing should be all about sustainably cruising at a pace you can, without question, keep up for the distance. It's a gradual thing... after a while it will become a chore to carry the stable setup around at speed, so you move to a slightly more twitchy one to make going fast sligthly easier and, after a while this becomes the comfortable one which is a chore to carry around the track and so on and so forth. The one thing you can't do is to go from setup A, which you can push to do laptime X, to setup C which allows someone else to do laptime Z. You will be slower using setup C, because tried to skip setup B which does laptime Y. You can cut corners on the track, but you can't cut corners in driver/setup development. Jan. =---

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>> Well, my PB is a 1:50.05 before(long ago), but I don't know what >> setup I used. I went back to an AH setup later yesterday and ran >> 52's fairly consistently, with 2 or 3 51's. 49's are still my >> goal, and it's less than a second faster than my PB. > >Fair enough... how come you did not build on the setup that gave you your >PB, tho'? >

One, I wouldn't have a CLUE what to change - no setup skill. Two, I lost ALL my setups when my drive crashed... :-(

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>> > <snip> >> That's normal at ANY track... > >No it's not. "You don't have to put up with an ill-handling >racecar." -Carrol Smith. > >> > <snip> >> Then they're ALL rubbish! <g> > >Possibly, yes. It's clear you're dealing with a set of problems that is >alien to your average simracer. Until you get a setup where you can truly >say the limiting factor is your driving as opposed to the car not being >adapted to your driving there is no way you can make a decision to the >effect of "if I change the car like this, I might be able to take turn X >like that and go faster".

Every change I've ever made to a setup made it worse. Changing it in the opposite direction makes it worse as well. Say the value for a particular setting is 4. If I change it to 5, it's worse. If I then change it to 3, it's also worse. Setting it back to 4 puts me back where I started. In other words, I've never been able to make a change to a setup that made it any better for me, short of steering ratio or brake bias... That's been a constant in every sim I've played(ICR, Nx, GPL, F1x), and I'm not quite sure why that happens.

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>This is the fascinating thing about "true" sims... the learning never stops. >Working one track can give you an insight on how you like your car to handle >and this can be used to great effect on other tracks as you strive to get a >minimum difference in feel using a minimum difference in settin at any given >track. A change that only works at one track is worth keeping in mind for >that venue, but I feel one should strive for a basic chassis setup which >varies very little across venues. Familiarity is the key to speed. > >> > <snip> >> Everyone says that the 'stable' setups are slow - you need the >> twitchy setups to get the speed. Now it sounds like you're >> saying the opposite... > >Speed is not really related to setup, setup only permits you to reach your >true speed. Like I said, it's an evolutionary process. You should always >drive the setup that allows you to push to reach your best speed at this >moment in time. Then you change the setup so you can reach it without >exerting yourself lap after lap. In the same way it's not fun to drive a too >twitchy setup for 35 laps, it's no fun driving your guts out for just to get >where you can be for 35 laps either. Speed is something you need to have "on >tap" for when you need it, but racing should be all about sustainably >cruising at a pace you can, without question, keep up for the distance. > >It's a gradual thing... after a while it will become a chore to carry the >stable setup around at speed, so you move to a slightly more twitchy one to >make going fast sligthly easier and, after a while this becomes the >comfortable one which is a chore to carry around the track and so on and so >forth.

Chore, meaning what - boring? >The one thing you can't do is to go from setup A, which you can push to do >laptime X, to setup C which allows someone else to do laptime Z. You will be >slower using setup C, because tried to skip setup B which does laptime Y. >You can cut corners on the track, but you can't cut corners in driver/setup >development. But setup C just may be better for you than setup B. I assume that if I try a bunch of different setups, one will stand out as better and easier to drive for my style. That may be A, C, or X. It just depends on when I stop looking...<g> Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -2.4 MoGPL rank +302.38 ChallengeRank +54.48 MoC +743.77 Hist. +82.82 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <LmHjb.82650$[email hidden]>, Jan Verschueren <[email hidden]> writes

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> > >The one thing you can't do is to go from setup A, which you can push to do >laptime X, to setup C which allows someone else to do laptime Z. You will >be >slower using setup C, because tried to skip setup B which does laptime Y. >You can cut corners on the track, but you can't cut corners in driver/setup >development. >

Funny thing that. When I used to race GPL using a joystick I could do just that. My lap times were ok, but not brilliant and no matter what I used to do, setup-wise, to improve my laptimes, it just didn't make any difference. As soon as I would download a hotshoe setup my laptimes would improve quite significantly. I recall getting hold of one for Kyalami where my previous PB was something like 1:20.1. I then went out on the track just to get a feel for the setup and put in a 1:19.67 within 3 laps and it didn't even feel like I was pushing. And this would happen time and time again, track after track. Get hold of a hotshoe setup (any one, it didn't seem to make much difference) and my laptimes would immediately tumble. Since I've gone over to using a wheel, and considering that I already have plenty of fast setups for each track with which I tried using the wheel, but I can't seem to repeat that anymore. Now my laptimes improvements are evolutionary instead of revolutionary. Oh well! :) -- Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :) GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > One, I wouldn't have a CLUE what to change - no setup skill. Yes you do, I and several other people gave you suggestions. There is no difference between you using someone else's setup and you changing the setup yourself to a particular set of values. As far as your Mexico setup was concerned I recommended that you change the number of clutches from 3 to 1. You may not drive any faster, but it should be alot easier to drive, therefore you will make fewer mistakes, therefore your laptimes will improve. Would you prefer it if I just took the setup you posted, made the change & mailed it to you? Then you would have 'someone else's' setup ;-) Malc.

In article <BpWjb.11727$[email hidden]>, "Malc" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>As far as your Mexico setup was concerned I recommended that you change >the number of clutches from 3 to 1. You may not drive any faster, but it >should be alot easier to drive, therefore you will make fewer mistakes, >therefore your laptimes will improve. > >Would you prefer it if I just took the setup you posted, made the change & >mailed it to you? Then you would have 'someone else's' setup ;-)

Hehe... Yeah, and someone else also suggested scrapping that setup altogether... Haven't had time to do any testing since, dammit. Stupid classes... :-( Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Member Screamers Racing League IICC League GPLRank -2.4 MoGPL rank +302.38 ChallengeRank +54.48 MoC +743.77 Hist. +82.82 MoH in progress N2k3 rank:in progress Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 20:04:52 +0100, Gerry Aitken wrote: > Ah, well, you see you're doing it wrong, mate. :) Great post, thanks Gary! Submitted to a.h.b-o-u 8-D Cheers, uwe -- mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox) Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61