Just Got GPL - First Impressions!

Car control in GPL is very difficult to start with, but it gets easier the more you practice. The trick is to learn the speed/braking thresholds beyond which the car will spin or under/oversteer off the track. You will also need to spend quite a lot of time learning the tracks and the best racing line through various corners. Concentrate on one track to start with. People's opinions vary re: which is the best track for beginners: Spa, Watkins Glen and Monza are the most frequently recommended. It's definitely not a game you can become proficient at in the first few weeks. It's going to take a _lot_ of practice. That said, if you're only getting 6 or 7 fps, there is absolutely no way you're going to be able to control the car. I don't know what kind of system you're running the game on, but it is definitely worth looking into upgrading your video card. A 3Dfx or Rendition based card is best, since GPL was written specifically for these cards. If your budget is a bit tight, the Voodoo Banshee is a good, affordable card. S. > I received GPL in the mail yesterday. I installed it and read some of the > two books that came with it. First thing that I noticed is that when you > slide through the corners it sure seems realistic. It makes me want to lean > over to one side in my chair! The only problem is it seems like all I can do > is slide and slide and slide! So I get to the 90 at the Glen and find that > lap after lap with the trainer I can't make the corner. I did find that I > actually had better luck in a race practice without the trainer. > Another thing that I have notice is that it seems that the steering is too > touchy. I have the steering lock set to 20:1 and to max non-linear and have > recalibrated the wheel a few times. (B.T.W. its a homemade wheel, but works > well with all of my other sims. I should be getting my new Force RS soon) > Lastly is the frame rates. I am using software mode as It is my > understanding that my ATI Rage Pro card won't work with GPL. At first I was > seeing frame rate of about 6. I downloaded the 1.2 patch from Pappy and now > I get about 7fps. I tried turning off many of the details and found that > only added about 1fps. So I max out at about 8fps. The weird part is that > the graphics seem very fluid and responsive even with everything turned on. > So what does all the above sound about normal? Is the steering always this > touchy? Is playing with setups at this point going to make much difference?

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> I am thinking not as probably the best thing that I can do is to learn the > driving line first. Any suggestions about how I can improve the frame rate > until I can get a new video card? > All in all, I can see where this is going to be ***ive. Maybe I can't > keep it on the track too well, but when I can it sure is fun! > Wheels Down! > Ed

I received GPL in the mail yesterday. I installed it and read some of the two books that came with it. First thing that I noticed is that when you slide through the corners it sure seems realistic. It makes me want to lean over to one side in my chair! The only problem is it seems like all I can do is slide and slide and slide! So I get to the 90 at the Glen and find that lap after lap with the trainer I can't make the corner. I did find that I actually had better luck in a race practice without the trainer. Another thing that I have notice is that it seems that the steering is too touchy. I have the steering lock set to 20:1 and to max non-linear and have recalibrated the wheel a few times. (B.T.W. its a homemade wheel, but works well with all of my other sims. I should be getting my new Force RS soon) Lastly is the frame rates. I am using software mode as It is my understanding that my ATI Rage Pro card won't work with GPL. At first I was seeing frame rate of about 6. I downloaded the 1.2 patch from Pappy and now I get about 7fps. I tried turning off many of the details and found that only added about 1fps. So I max out at about 8fps. The weird part is that the graphics seem very fluid and responsive even with everything turned on. So what does all the above sound about normal? Is the steering always this touchy? Is playing with setups at this point going to make much difference? I am thinking not as probably the best thing that I can do is to learn the driving line first. Any suggestions about how I can improve the frame rate until I can get a new video card? All in all, I can see where this is going to be ***ive. Maybe I can't keep it on the track too well, but when I can it sure is fun! Wheels Down! Ed

I would try the openGL patch. It works with nvidia cards and might work with the ati (well, it wouldn't hurt to try). Good luck with the game. I just got it about a week and a half ago and have improved greatly (i have a fast computer and a FF wheel so I think that helps). Right now I'm struggling with the Brabham because I like the solid workingman nature of the beast but I find it very hard to drive fast. I was hitting low 9's and a few high 8's at the Glen (and plenty of 10's--consistency lacking just a tad) with the Brab and just couldn't go any faster. I decided to break things up with the Lotus and got a lucky new PB of 1.07.20. That is about a second better than my previous PB and more that 1.5 better than my PB in the Brab. Go figure. If you are serious about continuing with the sim and want to improve your experience let me know. I've got an old Voodoo card (4M) that if I can find I'll be happy to send to you (if you live near enough so postage is cheap--I'm in LA area) (no promises, I have to find the damn card and then hope it works). I think if you can get the GL patch working it will give better performance than the Voodoo though which is pretty ancient tech. Chris >I received GPL in the mail yesterday. I installed it and read some of the >two books that came with it. First thing that I noticed is that when you >slide through the corners it sure seems realistic. It makes me want to lean >over to one side in my chair! The only problem is it seems like all I can do

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>is slide and slide and slide! So I get to the 90 at the Glen and find that >lap after lap with the trainer I can't make the corner. I did find that I >actually had better luck in a race practice without the trainer. >Another thing that I have notice is that it seems that the steering is too >touchy. I have the steering lock set to 20:1 and to max non-linear and have >recalibrated the wheel a few times. (B.T.W. its a homemade wheel, but works >well with all of my other sims. I should be getting my new Force RS soon) >Lastly is the frame rates. I am using software mode as It is my >understanding that my ATI Rage Pro card won't work with GPL. At first I was >seeing frame rate of about 6. I downloaded the 1.2 patch from Pappy and now >I get about 7fps. I tried turning off many of the details and found that >only added about 1fps. So I max out at about 8fps. The weird part is that >the graphics seem very fluid and responsive even with everything turned on. >So what does all the above sound about normal? Is the steering always this >touchy? Is playing with setups at this point going to make much difference? >I am thinking not as probably the best thing that I can do is to learn the >driving line first. Any suggestions about how I can improve the frame rate >until I can get a new video card? >All in all, I can see where this is going to be ***ive. Maybe I can't >keep it on the track too well, but when I can it sure is fun! >Wheels Down! >Ed

Hi, I have an old Hercules Thriller 3D card. If you have an AGP port and would like the card, I can send it to you for $20. I used to get 36 fps in GPL with a PII-300 at 800x600 with all the details on and no AI cars present. The AI would slow down things quite a bit if there was more than one of them in front of me. It *IS* a Rendition card, but it's 2D/3D. I still like the look of the graphics of that card better than the V3 I bought. -Chris- > I received GPL in the mail yesterday. I installed it and read some of the > two books that came with it. First thing that I noticed is that when you > slide through the corners it sure seems realistic. It makes me want to lean > over to one side in my chair! The only problem is it seems like all I can do > is slide and slide and slide! So I get to the 90 at the Glen and find that > lap after lap with the trainer I can't make the corner. I did find that I > actually had better luck in a race practice without the trainer. > Another thing that I have notice is that it seems that the steering is too > touchy. I have the steering lock set to 20:1 and to max non-linear and have > recalibrated the wheel a few times. (B.T.W. its a homemade wheel, but works > well with all of my other sims. I should be getting my new Force RS soon) > Lastly is the frame rates. I am using software mode as It is my > understanding that my ATI Rage Pro card won't work with GPL. At first I was > seeing frame rate of about 6. I downloaded the 1.2 patch from Pappy and now > I get about 7fps. I tried turning off many of the details and found that > only added about 1fps. So I max out at about 8fps. The weird part is that > the graphics seem very fluid and responsive even with everything turned on. > So what does all the above sound about normal? Is the steering always this > touchy? Is playing with setups at this point going to make much difference? > I am thinking not as probably the best thing that I can do is to learn the > driving line first. Any suggestions about how I can improve the frame rate > until I can get a new video card? > All in all, I can see where this is going to be ***ive. Maybe I can't > keep it on the track too well, but when I can it sure is fun! > Wheels Down! > Ed Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

says... Everybody does this to start with. You must slow down a *lot* more than you think, especially for slow 1st gear corners like the 90. You'll feel like you're crawling round, but you won't spin off. Then *gradually* increase the speed a tiny amount each lap. You'll start to hear the tire squeal through your speakers, and this gives you an idea of the limit. Don't try and decrease your lap time in big chunks, just a little bit at a time. - Michael

ar control in GPL is very difficult to start with, but it gets easier the more you practice. The trick is to learn the speed/braking thresholds Having a split axis pedal system helps immensely. Rik Anthrax - - "trust the government?? what are you, some kind of moron?"

Trying to control the car at 8 fps probably means that there are at least 125 milliseconds (1000/8) between control motion and you perceiving the results. This is only one of the lags in the system, there are more as well as the time it takes the vehicle to respond dynamically to the control inputs also enters into controllability. Aircraft get bad marks from test pilots when those lags get over around 150 ms. You are most of the way to this rule of thumb already just with the low frame rate. Too much lag makes any piloted vehicle, sim or real, prone to Pilot Induced Oscillations (PIO) - possibly what you describe as steering being too touchy. You won't get the proper experience from the sim unless you can get a reasonable frame rate. If you consider upgrading, aim for 36 frames per sec. (and get back 97 ms of that lag ;) > Another thing that I have notice is that > it seems that the steering is too touchy. > I downloaded the 1.2 patch from Pappy and now > I get about 7fps. I tried turning off many of the details and found that > only added about 1fps. So I max out at about 8fps. -- Matthew V. Jessick Motorsims Vehicle Dynamics Engineer (972)910-8866 Ext.125, Fax: (972)910-8216

Split Axis is a very subjective issue. For my driving style going from a split axis setup to a non-split axis made little to no difference at all in lap times or feel. Mitch

Welcome to paradise... or hell, depending on your frame of mind :o) A few things.... 1) Hardware: you need high fps, whatever it takes. Sadly the best way's to get a V3 card, but an old V1 or V2 will sit happily next to your ATI. PITA to have to spend more money either way, but it's worth it. In the mean time turn off all the detail and run at the lowest res. It'll look like something from 1985 but fps are your Best Friend. Use ALT F to show you what you're actually getting, and use as few AI drivers as possible... they eat processor power. 2) I have my steering set to 1:20 on all setups, with the linearity slider almost all the way over to the left. I think that's the linear end, found things much more controllable like this (with a wheel or a joystick). 3) Dump the trainer! I learned from scratch in the F1 cars. I know many people like the lower spec cars but I think learning with them can confuse your reactions and make the learning curve steeper. Use the Coventry if you want an "easy" start and don't get too bogged down wading through piles of setups. It can be a "Holy Grail" type experience, with lots of searching, not a lot of finding, and plenty of Holy Hand Grenades along the way. Having said that, there are some great, stable setups out there (eg Alison's Ferrari), I'm just saying that time spent messing about with them could be time spend slowly building up track time at this stage. 4) Drive slowly at 1st. Very slowly. I learned most tracks in 2nd or 3rd gear... Mexico, Monaco, and the Ring in 1st or 2nd. It can be a bit boring, but nowhere near as frustrating as going off on every corner :-) 5) visit VROC.net and get WinVROC installed. You won't be in any condition to race much for a while, but there's usually someone around there who can help you with any GPL questions. Evening times in the States and Europe are best. Hope this helps a bit. Andrew McP

Chris, I tried the OpenGl patch and my frame rate actually droped to 1.67!!!!! Yikes! I tried turning off every thing and making all of the suggested changes to the core.ini. By turning everthing off and going to lowest resolution in software mode, I was getting about 20fps. At lowest res. it looks like beta version of pong. I did turn some better laps like this. Would have been really good if I could have seen the track. I think the bottom line is that the ATI rage pro that came with my Compaq is a poor idea of a joke. It has a AMD K6-2 at 380Mhz. I just hope that it pays off if I do drop some money into this machine and buy a new video card. Thank you for the offer of the card, but I live in PA so the shipping would probably be a few bucks. I think I'll just wait till the new 3Dfx cards hit the store shelves and then look for a good bargain. Thank you for the Ideas. Ed > I would try the openGL patch. It works with nvidia cards and might work with > the ati (well, it wouldn't hurt to try). Good luck with the game. I just got > it about a week and a half ago and have improved greatly (i have a fast > computer and a FF wheel so I think that helps). Right now I'm struggling > with the Brabham because I like the solid workingman nature of the beast but > I find it very hard to drive fast. I was hitting low 9's and a few high 8's > at the Glen (and plenty of 10's--consistency lacking just a tad) with the > Brab and just couldn't go any faster. I decided to break things up with the > Lotus and got a lucky new PB of 1.07.20. That is about a second better than > my previous PB and more that 1.5 better than my PB in the Brab. Go figure. > If you are serious about continuing with the sim and want to improve your > experience let me know. I've got an old Voodoo card (4M) that if I can find

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> I'll be happy to send to you (if you live near enough so postage is > cheap--I'm in LA area) (no promises, I have to find the damn card and then > hope it works). I think if you can get the GL patch working it will give > better performance than the Voodoo though which is pretty ancient tech. > Chris > >I received GPL in the mail yesterday. I installed it and read some of

the > >two books that came with it. First thing that I noticed is that when you > >slide through the corners it sure seems realistic. It makes me want to lean > >over to one side in my chair! The only problem is it seems like all I can > do > >is slide and slide and slide! So I get to the 90 at the Glen and find that > >lap after lap with the trainer I can't make the corner. I did find that I > >actually had better luck in a race practice without the trainer. > >Another thing that I have notice is that it seems that the steering is too > >touchy. I have the steering lock set to 20:1 and to max non-linear and have > >recalibrated the wheel a few times. (B.T.W. its a homemade wheel, but works > >well with all of my other sims. I should be getting my new Force RS soon) > >Lastly is the frame rates. I am using software mode as It is my > >understanding that my ATI Rage Pro card won't work with GPL. At first I was > >seeing frame rate of about 6. I downloaded the 1.2 patch from Pappy and now > >I get about 7fps. I tried turning off many of the details and found that > >only added about 1fps. So I max out at about 8fps. The weird part is that > >the graphics seem very fluid and responsive even with everything turned on. > >So what does all the above sound about normal? Is the steering always this > >touchy? Is playing with setups at this point going to make much difference? > >I am thinking not as probably the best thing that I can do is to learn the > >driving line first. Any suggestions about how I can improve the frame rate

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> >until I can get a new video card? > >All in all, I can see where this is going to be ***ive. Maybe I can't > >keep it on the track too well, but when I can it sure is fun! > >Wheels Down! > >Ed

On Fri, 11 Feb 2000 05:27:34 GMT, "Ed Carpenter" >I received GPL in the mail yesterday. <remainder snipped> Good start! If you've read the manuals, I really hope you're American - that "Four-Wheel Drift" book is practically incomprehensible to us Brits - who the hell is Alois Ruf? ;-) First thing - frame rate. Get a Voodoo card right now (Renditions are great for GPL, but mostly unsupported elsewhere). And turn off some of the graphics - you don't need everything in your mirrors, for example. I started off on a P133, getting 12fps max. These days I get 36fps, and the difference is incredible. I can almost guarantee you'll go a *lot* faster. And you'll have no reason to use that horrible F10 'arcade' view. Cars - I ignored all the recommendations, and jumped straight in at the deep end with the F1 Lotus. It takes time, but once you can drive that one well, you should be able to learn the others pretty quickly. Quite a few people recommend the Cooper, but I've never got on it with at all. Horrible car. (BTW, everyone tends to refer to 'Cooper' and 'Honda' and 'F2', not 'Coventry' and 'Murasama' and 'Advanced Trainer' - Papy may stick to a legal fiction, but we generally don't.) Tracks - the Glen is by no means an easy track. IMHO, Spa is the place to learn. It's fast, it's challenging, it's hilly, it's chicane-free, it's exhilarating, it's great. And you can have some superb races there, too. I also like Silverstone, which is a *fantastic* place for racing, but I'm something of a voice in the wilderness there. And you should also learn Monza, if only because everyone else does.You'll probably end up considerably better at some tracks than others - for example, I've done a 1:29 at Silverstone, but can't break 9:10 at the Ring. Setups - you can get pretty decent times with a low fuel load, the default setups, and lots of practice. By the time you're good enough to notice the difference, which setup you choose will be in large part a matter of personal preference. James Pickup's setups have worked very well for me. Racing - don't try 19 AI cars. The frame rate goes through the floor and you'll almost certainly crash (or, maybe more likely, be crashed into :-) ). I find about 9 AI cars is reasonable (and, since you're using v1.2, they'll be a good spread of abilities). It is practically impossible to catch the front-runners off the startline, so don't worry about that. You're a lot closer to the car in front than you think you are. If the top of your cowling is just touching the bottom of your quarry's wheels, you're about a car's length behind. And if you're racing at Spa, remember to hold the clutch at the start! Online - apparently, this is unbeatable. Go to www.vroc.net for details - it's all free. I say "apparently" because I've given up on it myself - over 100 attempts, a new USB modem, countless tweaks to the core.ini file, three different ISPs and every conceivable connection setting, and I've *never* got further than a "Reconnect Now?" message (except for one time when I got a "Race Length:?????" message - then a "Reconnect Now?"). I've never got myself inside the car! It must be evil British Telecom... :-( So I'm sticking to hotlapping and racing against the AI, which is really not at all bad. And GPL very nearly didn't have an internet capability at all, so I've still got the core of the game. Addons - GPL has a load of setups, tweaks, new cars etc that you can download - all completely unofficial, and none the worse for that. The best place to look for these is The US Pits, at www.theuspits.com. Latest from there is a completely new track - the Oesterreichring. Extremely impressive. I'd advise not installing addons until you know your way around the GPL folder - I got caught out that way and had to reinstall it. Whatever, GPL is a fabulous game, and it'll consume great chunks of your life. Whether you want it to doesn't matter - it will. Have fun! -- David. "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

When I was messing about on a low spec PC I found the skid marks had to be left on otherwise the lack of textures etc left me fairly disoriented. Andrew McP

***. What ISP you using? Even with Freeserve (which I don't often use) I had some acceptable races. You're not on some remote Scottish mountain are you? 150 miles of 2-strand bell wire linking you to the nearest exchange manned by an elderly busy-body trying to listen in to your net connection :-) Generally if WinVROC reports pings less than 300 I can be fairly sure of a solid (touch wood (that's a UK wood, not a US willy!)) connection. 200 or less and I'm generally guaranteed a good race unless the server gets confused by a million people trying to squeeze on. Another famous reason for poor connections is phone line extensions... but you'd see this reflected in low connect speeds (eg 9600 instead of 48000 or more) and generally lousy net performance. If you get good DL speeds (4+k/s) then the only other thing I can think of is some *** networking protocol thing. I had some weird probs when I was messing about networking my 2 PCs... gave up in the end. Shame to be missing out on the fun though...and the T1 crashes and the "sorry I shunted you up the arse, came as a complete surprise when you braked for that hairpin which I couldn't see because I was right up your arse" type conversations. Andrew McP

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> Car control in GPL is very difficult to start with, but it gets easier the > more you practice. The trick is to learn the speed/braking thresholds > beyond which the car will spin or under/oversteer off the track. You will > also need to spend quite a lot of time learning the tracks and the best > racing line through various corners. Concentrate on one track to start > with. People's opinions vary re: which is the best track for beginners: > Spa, Watkins Glen and Monza are the most frequently recommended. > It's definitely not a game you can become proficient at in the first few > weeks. It's going to take a _lot_ of practice. > That said, if you're only getting 6 or 7 fps, there is absolutely no way > you're going to be able to control the car. I don't know what kind of > system you're running the game on, but it is definitely worth looking into > upgrading your video card. A 3Dfx or Rendition based card is best, since > GPL was written specifically for these cards. If your budget is a bit > tight, the Voodoo Banshee is a good, affordable card. > S. > > I received GPL in the mail yesterday. I installed it and read some of the > > two books that came with it. First thing that I noticed is that when you > > slide through the corners it sure seems realistic. It makes me want to > lean > > over to one side in my chair! The only problem is it seems like all I can > do > > is slide and slide and slide! So I get to the 90 at the Glen and find that > > lap after lap with the trainer I can't make the corner. I did find that I > > actually had better luck in a race practice without the trainer. > > Another thing that I have notice is that it seems that the steering is too > > touchy. I have the steering lock set to 20:1 and to max non-linear and > have > > recalibrated the wheel a few times. (B.T.W. its a homemade wheel, but > works > > well with all of my other sims. I should be getting my new Force RS soon) > > Lastly is the frame rates. I am using software mode as It is my > > understanding that my ATI Rage Pro card won't work with GPL. At first I > was > > seeing frame rate of about 6. I downloaded the 1.2 patch from Pappy and > now > > I get about 7fps. I tried turning off many of the details and found that > > only added about 1fps. So I max out at about 8fps. The weird part is that > > the graphics seem very fluid and responsive even with everything turned > on. > > So what does all the above sound about normal? Is the steering always this > > touchy? Is playing with setups at this point going to make much > difference? > > I am thinking not as probably the best thing that I can do is to learn the > > driving line first. Any suggestions about how I can improve the frame rate > > until I can get a new video card? > > All in all, I can see where this is going to be ***ive. Maybe I can't > > keep it on the track too well, but when I can it sure is fun! > > Wheels Down! > > Ed

Ed, Steve is right on the money on this one. Even a year ago, it took two 12meg Voodoo Two cards running in SLI to run at 1024x768. Think about how long a year is in game time, it's like a dog where each of his years is seven human years. Heck, I just about wore out one machine just on the demo, and then the Red Ferrari skin came out.... here we go again<ggg.> Remember, this was just the demo, no-one had ever seen anything like GPL before! The sim was _WAY_ ahead of its time <ggg.> Remember too, the early posts of Alison and the others racing online. Well, my laddie, they must have had pretty good connections. Don't take this wrong, I have nothing but the upmost respect for Alison and the entire team at Papy. I'm just making a point that times have changed. To this day, with all the advances in gear and confusers, it still gives a good workout. I have been away for a short while, but see that nothing has changed <ggg.> GPL is still the most demanding and no, Nascar3 did not use the GPL physics engine! Good luck, all the best Mike -- Michael S. Davis Creative Media-Works Computer/Audio/Video Convergence "from Creative minds spring Creative solutions." http://www.creativemedia-works.com Member, International Webmasters Association http://iwanet.org

On Sat, 12 Feb 2000 09:57 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), >> I've *never* got further than a "Reconnect Now?" message >***. What ISP you using? I'm using btclick, which is fine for other multiplayer stuff. Nope, I'm in Worcestershire - but right at the far end of my estate from the junction box. The exchange is about a mile and a half away. This is the thing. A ping of sub 300 is practically unheard of for me. Sometimes I'm lucky to get 350. I know this is what's causing the problems, I just don't know what to do about it. No networking here, and I've used Enditall, so I'm not running some resource-guzzling app in the background. I practically always get on at 44k (and yes, I've tried going down to 28k for VROC). My phone line's not an extension, it's a second line put in just for internet use (that BT Together thing). T1 crashes I can get vs the AI - I can always shout at the screen :-) I've decided that every time I change something on my PC (hw or sw), I'll have another go. One day it might work... probably when cable or affordable ADSL (hah!) eventually reaches me :-) -- David. "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

>I received GPL in the mail yesterday. I installed it and read some of the >two books that came with it. I bought a used copy that came with one book: _Four Wheel Drift_. Is the other book essential? --Jon

> >I received GPL in the mail yesterday. I installed it and read some of the > >two books that came with it. > I bought a used copy that came with one book: _Four Wheel Drift_. Is > the other book essential? AFAIR the manual just concerns installation, how to run the game, technical stuff, troubleshooting etc. I may be wrong. regards -- http://ianhill.tripod.com Please visit www.thehungersite.com today!

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> >I received GPL in the mail yesterday. I installed it and read some of the > >two books that came with it. > I bought a used copy that came with one book: _Four Wheel Drift_. Is > the other book essential? > --Jon

Not really. You got the one that matters. -- /Chuck Kandler #70 /ChuckK on Won.net & WinVROC /K&S Racing http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 /The box said "Windows 0x5f or better", so I installed LINUX!

I'd try a few free ISPs if I were you. Haven't used BTClick myself. Don't hold your breath. I've started to contemplated ISDN even though I think it's wildly overpriced ie by now it should be the standard. I resent BT wringing every penny they can out of the market... and I resent the fact that I'm cracking even more :-) Andrew McP

: On Sat, 12 Feb 2000 09:57 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), :>Generally if WinVROC reports pings less than 300 I can be fairly sure of a :>solid (touch wood (that's a UK wood, not a US willy!)) connection. 200 or :>less and I'm generally guaranteed a good race unless the server gets :>confused by a million people trying to squeeze on. : This is the thing. A ping of sub 300 is practically unheard of for me. : Sometimes I'm lucky to get 350. I know this is what's causing the : problems, I just don't know what to do about it. I had this problem using a USB external modem from ModularTech which was cheap but added about 100-150 onto ping times and made on-line *** impossible. Had to change modems. -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/