So, it has nothing to do with Bernie...

From the Gamezone interview with John Cook and Nod Court of GP3 (translated from German): GZ: Which different Multiplayer modes will it give in GP3? Nod: Apart from an option for modem direct connection one will be able to drive the play against each other in the local network with up to 16 players. <Snip> We do not support Internet Play however, because at the moment the network is unfortunately still too slow, in order to transmit all data in sufficient rate. John: We plan however to bring in the future each year out a new version <Snip>. If that should thus sometime be fast Internet enough, in order to be able to play Grand Prix Racing liquid, we will naturally integrate an on-line mode. I say "BAAHHH". That's a cop out. Internet play with fluidity IS possible. I wonder if they've even heard of VROC... --David Cook

Bollocks, I say lets boycott GP3 for such a reason. It's a shame that people will buy it just for offline racing, let's hope we will not. It's a shame that Microprose/Hasbro take decisions actually worse than Sierra sometimes, which is really pathetic... Geoff will fail for the first time if there is no online TCP/IP or IPX based racing, and I will be darn happy if it sinks for such reasons. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

[snip] Not sending the message you want to the publishers though, is it? All they will see is a failed *** racing simulation. From that they will deduce that *** racing simulations are not profitable and no more will be produced. Cutting off your nose to spite your face. S.

>Geoff will fail for the first time if there is no online TCP/IP or IPX based >racing, and I will be darn happy if it sinks for such reasons. If GPL had no net play would you still be driving it? I would. -- // rrev at mindspring dot com // s.p.u.t.u.m. - unit.26 // http://www.cabal.net

I wouldn't, as in the year 2000 I consider online community tools as important. The game physics would still be essential. I do not care about offline racing, nor how the artificial intelligence is. We are in the era of the internet, communication between people, exchange of data. It's pure BS by them to say that the network is not good enough for their game. Big corporations, people like ILM constantly use it with OC3's and even higher connections to constantly exchange data files between clients, so I doubt a simple TCP/IP packet has a problem. In fact, the NROS, VROC and WON.NET has proven it can be incredibly successful. The pure arrogance of Microprose/Hasbro/Geoff Crammond about the Internet is bollocks, and be sure that if they do not ship GP2 with accurate tools for multiplayer racing like the Papyrus racing series have now, I will be happy to see it fail. Papyrus has the game engine, and they have online community tools. From what I see, GP3 will only have the first point. I'll stick to Papyrus, they are good at doing both. Obviously, Geoff doesn't have a clue. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Of course, I will push my voice the biggest I can to Microprose/Hasbro/Geoff Crammond about that possible decision of having no online community tools (heck not even simple internet racing) in the year 2000. Geoff is not a god, nor he is perfect. If that interview is true, then it will be the biggest disappointment in the history of racing simulators. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Surely we can expect AI to become more Human as computers get faster? Hopefully they will be able to react to individual situations and be able to adopt strategys according to their position in each race? I think there is a huge potential to give the AI personality. Chris

But it has been stated that GP3 will support 16 player ipx based racing. This would indicate that it would be able to be played online with Kali. Whilst this is obviously not the best situation, it does mean that we will still be able to play online. Rafe Mc

> > If GPL had no net play would you still be driving it? > > I would. > I wouldn't, as in the year 2000 I consider online community tools as > important. The game physics would still be essential. I do not care about > offline racing, nor how the artificial intelligence is. We are in the era > of the internet, communication between people, exchange of data. It's pure > BS by them to say that the network is not good enough for their game. Big > corporations, people like ILM constantly use it with OC3's and even higher > connections to constantly exchange data files between clients, so I doubt a > simple TCP/IP packet has a problem. In fact, the NROS, VROC and WON.NET has > proven it can be incredibly successful. > The pure arrogance of Microprose/Hasbro/Geoff Crammond about the Internet is > bollocks, and be sure that if they do not ship GP2 with accurate tools for > multiplayer racing like the Papyrus racing series have now, I will be happy > to see it fail. > Papyrus has the game engine, and they have online community tools. > From what I see, GP3 will only have the first point. I'll stick to Papyrus, > they are good at doing both. Obviously, Geoff doesn't have a clue. I do not disagree with you in the least, but I do want to point out that Papy isn't the only company producing successful online racing titles -- on any given night, you can easily find 30 or so active DTR servers registered with GameSpy, proving that Ratbag also understands (and can successfully execute) online racing. I enjoy offline play, but as much as I like DTR's career mode, I find myself doing little more than practicing offline for online races and leagues. If Crammond fails to include Internet play in GP3, then he's going to miss the boat entirely, I'm afraid. -- JB Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

I've never seen the word IPX but simply LAN-based. It would be via a different protocol, no? Maybe Im wrong, would you care to see about this information where you've read it? -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I think you need to lighten up just a bit, here... Well, most people probably do - don't think you speak for the majority of sim racers. I doubt lack of internet play will impact GP3 sales as much as you seem to hope. Not really - high speed internet is not available *everywhere*, you know. And who knows what the state of thier network code is - this would be Geoff's first internet racer (Papyrus had the head start with NASCAR/Hawaii). I would *much* rather Microprose release the game sooner with LAN code only, and then offer internet play later, rather than delay the game. I haven't followed the development of GP3 closely enough to know, but if the "calculate every frame" model of Geoff's from F1GP and GP2 applies to GP3, it may *require* stable, fast, low latency connections to work. Who knows? Certainly not you or I. And guess how much they pay for those connections... Again, Papyrus has got a bit of a head start here. And GPL has gone through several patches to improve warping, clock-smashes, etc. Perhaps Microprose prefers a system that won't require intensive tuning and technical knowledge by end users to make work. Technically, *GPL* was a failure. I have a hard time talking seriously anyone who *wants* a product to fail. OK, except for Daikatana ;)... Kendt Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Quoted text (14 lines)

>>Bollocks, I say lets boycott GP3 for such a reason. It's a shame that >>people will buy it just for offline racing, let's hope we will not. It's a >>shame that Microprose/Hasbro take decisions actually worse than Sierra >>sometimes, which is really pathetic... >>Geoff will fail for the first time if there is no online TCP/IP or IPX based >>racing, and I will be darn happy if it sinks for such reasons. >But it has been stated that GP3 will support 16 player ipx based >racing. This would indicate that it would be able to be played online >with Kali. Whilst this is obviously not the best situation, it does >mean that we will still be able to play online. >Rafe Mc

Did anyoen else notice, that it is 4-16 player lan????? wtf?> I mean, some of us do have *** lan's at home, but wtf has 4 PC's??????????? This is a complete joke! Z. Please remove my_pants when replying.

>Not sending the message you want to the publishers though, is it? All they >will see is a failed *** racing simulation. From that they will deduce >that *** racing simulations are not profitable and no more will be >produced. >Cutting off your nose to spite your face. Unless we tell them NOW, "If GP3 does not support on line multiplayer, I will not buy it". Don McCorkle

> >Cutting off your nose to spite your face. > Unless we tell them NOW, "If GP3 does not support on line multiplayer, I will > not buy it". > Don McCorkle GP3 is so far into it's pre-production life, there is really NO Way they could add features at this time without inducing another long wait. If they haven't gotten the message by now, then it's tooooooo late. dave henrie

Have to admit that I was very dissappointed with the tone of the recent interview with Geoff Crammond. He seemed totally disinterested about all the work done by individuals who created all manner of brilliant add-ons for FREE to make GP2 the success it was. Seems he has taken the same stance with regard to internet racing. I have yet to get into online racing myself (too nervous about screwing things up for others ...) but he is showing a certain lack of foresight by his comments regarding it so far. Peter Hooper > > If GPL had no net play would you still be driving it? > > I would. > I wouldn't, as in the year 2000 I consider online community tools as > important. The game physics would still be essential. I do not care about > offline racing, nor how the artificial intelligence is. We are in the era > of the internet, communication between people, exchange of data. It's pure > BS by them to say that the network is not good enough for their game. Big > corporations, people like ILM constantly use it with OC3's and even higher > connections to constantly exchange data files between clients, so I doubt a > simple TCP/IP packet has a problem. In fact, the NROS, VROC and WON.NET has > proven it can be incredibly successful. > The pure arrogance of Microprose/Hasbro/Geoff Crammond about the Internet is > bollocks, and be sure that if they do not ship GP2 with accurate tools for > multiplayer racing like the Papyrus racing series have now, I will be happy > to see it fail. > Papyrus has the game engine, and they have online community tools. > From what I see, GP3 will only have the first point. I'll stick to Papyrus,

Quoted text (8 lines)

> they are good at doing both. Obviously, Geoff doesn't have a clue. > -- > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Did a bit of a search, but i can't seem to find where it was that I read that it would be IPX based. Someone else had also mentioned KALI as well. So I can't say whether that was a guess or based on fact. But what other LAN protocol would they use? IPX for LANs, TCP/IP for internet is pretty standard, why go for something else. And Geoff may design the system to work with KALI, knowing that the online community will be able to hook up for online ***, produce tools like winvroc, etc. as addons. I'm sure that Geoff and others would like to incorporate native online play, but are restricted by the FIA licensing issues. That is why they come out with comments like: "We do not support Internet Play however, because at the moment the network is unfortunately still too slow, in order to transmit all data in sufficient rate." That is just trying to justify it to the *** world, without specifically mentioning the terms of the FIA licensing and bagging Bernie, Mosley, etc. I'm sure there would be some kind of a***in fine print, which wouldn't allow Geoff to mention the real reasons behind the internet multiplay issue. My thoughts anyway... Rafe Mc

On Sat, 12 Feb 2000 00:08:44 -0000, "Peter Hooper" >Have to admit that I was very dissappointed with the tone of the recent >interview with Geoff Crammond. I assume you mean the one in PC Gamer (UK). <snip> He can hardly say publicly that the third-party stuff is better than Microprose's. And he can't in all honesty say he's opposed to third-party development, can he? Think about it... ;-) -- David. "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

Quoted text (17 lines)

>[snip] >> Bollocks, I say lets boycott GP3 for such a reason. It's a shame that >> people will buy it just for offline racing, let's hope we will not. It's >a >> shame that Microprose/Hasbro take decisions actually worse than Sierra >> sometimes, which is really pathetic... >> Geoff will fail for the first time if there is no online TCP/IP or IPX >based >> racing, and I will be darn happy if it sinks for such reasons. >Not sending the message you want to the publishers though, is it? All they >will see is a failed *** racing simulation. From that they will deduce >that *** racing simulations are not profitable and no more will be >produced. >Cutting off your nose to spite your face. >S.

Sounds like a no-win situation. Not very encouraging... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Quoted text (8 lines)

>Did anyoen else notice, that it is 4-16 player lan????? >wtf?> >I mean, some of us do have *** lan's at home, but wtf has 4 >PC's??????????? >This is a complete joke!

I do. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

I must have missed something. How can the FIA allow the game itself, but say "You can't play against other humans"? Is that really LEGAL?!? Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

I have absolutely no idea as to what their reasons are, but there is nothing illegal about them putting any kind of conditions they like on their sacred license. Just not very nice, that's all. I can only speculate that there is a hidden agenda (there always is with Bernie and the FIA) that they want to develop the only internet based F1 racing. Probably charge per race, something like that. Money, money, money.... Rafe Mc

No, but they probably saw Nascar 3 on WON and came up with thier decision... -larry