Steering Wheel info

Anyone got a good source for wheels? Haven't been paying close enough attention....someone mentioned a TSW as quite good but what it in English? Looking for someplace online with a good selection to choose from and real info rathr than propaganda> Thanks (Don't use NO***in E-mail) You think in the storm we've found the eye of the calm.....Bill Mallonnee, Vigilantes Of Love

Everything the tsw site says is TRUTH. No bull. www.thomas-superwheel.com Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

[link lost in import] some reviews to look at there if you are intrerested.

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> Everything the tsw site says is TRUTH. No bull. > www.thomas-superwheel.com > > Anyone got a good source for wheels? > > Haven't been paying close enough attention....someone mentioned a TSW > as quite > > good but what it in English? > > Looking for someplace online with a good selection to choose from and > real info > > rathr than propaganda> > > Thanks > > (Don't use NO***in E-mail) > > You think in the storm we've found the eye of the calm.....Bill > Mallonnee, > > Vigilantes Of Love > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy.

From the site: " We have felt since the first mention of force-feedback that it would not become a beneficial part of sim racing." "We have been pleased in some ways to see that our impressions of force-feedback have been correct. To our knowledge there has yet to be a single postive review of a force-feedback steering wheel. " I love my TSW2 (modified+paddle shifters), but it's going to be upgraded to a LWFF shortly. I'm keeping the pedals :-). I also think TSW is a great company (incredibly good engineering- economical and user-friendly), but their refusal to acknowledge that FF is going to become a standard is troubling, and will do them in sooner or later. I honestly don't understand why they can't incorporate FF. Their mechanical skills would easily deal with the motor/linkage, and surely they could contract out the elctronics at a reasonable cost. There's a big market out there for a FF wheel that's not plastic, even at $500 for a basic wheel and up for top of the line features. bob

>>Everything the tsw site says is TRUTH. No bull. >> www.thomas-superwheel.com Their mechanical skills would easily deal with Thats just the problem, there is NO WAY we can offer any kind of TSW or TSW2 with FF for anywhere near $500.00. This is the reason why you dont see any high quality wheels with FF, it just isn feasible for a small company to do this. Obviously you dont have a clue about the cost of contracting electronic components, believe me there is no way a small company could ever afford it. We dont feel any pressure to offer FF since our sales steadily increase each year and many of these sales are from former FF owners who have realized that quality is more important than a gimmck. Trev

I could NEVER go back to a non force wheel either. I also think that the feel you get is with a good force wheel is helpful to drive with as it is more dynamic, and at its worst is certainly more realistic than a passive wheel.

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> Personally, Trev, I disagree with you here. In GPL FF is IMO NOT a gimmick > but a VERY helpful extra clue for car-behaviour. I would not want to go > back to a passive wheel. > GPL seems to be the exception though, about this. > > We dont feel any pressure to offer FF since our sales steadily increase > each > > year and many of these sales are from former FF owners who have realized > > that quality is more important than a gimmck. > > Trev

About 6 month's ago I ordered a wheel from SRC that I could meld with my LWFF to create a high quality Force Feedback wheel. I have yet to receive my wheel and can not even get them to reply to my emails.... Anyone looking into buying a wheel from SRC, BEWARE!!! That's another story though. I agree that from an engineering standpoint that it's intriguing. I think the way for any small company to go about this is to take the electronics from an existing product (Logitech, Microsoft, Act Labs) and then build a wheel around them. This will add the cost of a "parts" wheel to the cost of the final product, but I don't think that it's all that big of an issue for an individual looking for a top notch force feedback wheel. I wish I could help you out on sites that offer mechanical info, but there are not many to be found. I have ordered several catalogs from gear and motor companies. I know the parts are out there and these companies are willing to answer questions. I also have a catalog from a company that sells replacement Force Feedback wheels for arcade cabinets. The entire assembly is ~$500, but it's a hell of a unit with a monster motor. The problem is connecting it to a PC, again an existing 3rd party wheel would probably be needed. Any company that is interested in building a wheel, but would like to know of customer interest can sign me up. I asked all the biggies, Thomas, ECCI, SRC, and Ball Racing and only Ball Racing said they were still investigating. ECCI has developed a wheel, but state the cost is prohibitive in bringing it to market. I'd buy blue prints from them if I could, but I have not asked. If anyone else has any desire in exploring this issue, I'd like to hear -Andrew ps. I RECOMMEND ANYONE CONSIDERING A WHEEL FROM SRC (www.mindspring.com/~srcwheel) TO BE VERY, VERY CAREFUL. I know of at least two dissatisified customers, and another that went through the same situatiion that I am going through. He eventually received his wheel, but not without a fight. Any lawyers here that care to lend a hand?

Trevor Thomas wrote: > > You pretty well sum up my own feelings toward FF, I dont find it of any > value to someone who is serious about PC racing. Oh, I'm not serious enough about it? What about Alison Hine? > We own a LWFF and I've done > hours of testing it against one of our passive wheels, I dont see any > improvement in lap times or speed with the FF and if anything it'll be > slightly slower but not by a real margin. (to quote Cisko) Duh. Do you not understand the discussion of consistency v. top lap times, or do you willfully choose to ignore it? > Still this is neither here nor there, the FF devotees will continue to feel > that it is "Way Cool Man" and the serious racers will still buy passive > products so its all a waste of time discussing it :). Thanks for stereotyping (and insulting) all of us. You are really earning a lot of respect. Just keep repeating to yourself, "it's just a gimmick, it's just a gimmick". I now really believe you are simply incapable of properly implementing FF. -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

OMG .....Trevor Im a very serious sim racer...and you know if you cant feel anything from the wheel when you drive then I guarantee that you arent one of the better drivers out there! Pat Dotson <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Trevor Thomas wrote: > > > > You pretty well sum up my own feelings toward FF, I dont find it of any > > value to someone who is serious about PC racing. > > Oh, I'm not serious enough about it? What about > Alison Hine? > > > We own a LWFF and I've done > > hours of testing it against one of our passive wheels, I dont see any > > improvement in lap times or speed with the FF and if anything it'll be > > slightly slower but not by a real margin. > > (to quote Cisko) Duh. > > Do you not understand the discussion of consistency > v. top lap times, or do you willfully choose to > ignore it? > > > Still this is neither here nor there, the FF devotees will continue to

feel

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> > that it is "Way Cool Man" and the serious racers will still buy passive > > products so its all a waste of time discussing it :). > > Thanks for stereotyping (and insulting) all of us. > You are really earning a lot of respect. Just > keep repeating to yourself, "it's just a gimmick, > it's just a gimmick". > > I now really believe you are simply incapable of > properly implementing FF. > > -- > Pat Dotson > IMPACT Motorsports > http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

I think you are lying to protect your own interests Thomas. Or you have never really used FF with a sim that implements it well. Or maybe both. ;) Trevor Thomas <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:87k8f4$p59$[email hidden]...

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> > mad wrote in message <87k1s1$29ik$[email hidden]>... > >Hi all > > > >I to think FF is a gimmick !! > >I got a LWFF and was slower then with my homebuild. > >After 1 month the logi went bad and I got a refund from logitech ( it > >couldn't be repaired ) > >By that time I approched the times I did with my homebuild. > >I took my homebuild again and improved my times the same day . > >So if I had stayed with my homebuild I would have been quicker now > >People say " you have to get used to the feeling " that may be true but I > >think you will be quicker without FF > >( I practised 1 month to become almost as quick ) > >I can't prove this but Greger Hutu is so fast with a thrustmaster F1

non

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> >FF ) > >I think if FF would be quicker Greger would have got one !! > > > >My two cents > > > >Madhouse > > > > > You pretty well sum up my own feelings toward FF, I dont find it of any > value to someone who is serious about PC racing. We own a LWFF and I've

done > hours of testing it against one of our passive wheels, I dont see any > improvement in lap times or speed with the FF and if anything it'll be > slightly slower but not by a real margin. > > I just dont care for FF personally and IMO the only thing even remotely > realistic about it is the wheel jerking when you hit something, this isonly > true if you have hit in such a way that a front wheel would have actually > come into contact with something. This is also unrealistic though in thatit > occurs in any impact with anything else. > > In driving a real racecar I'd estimate that 85% of what a driver feels is > through the seat of the pants and the other 15% is visual, very seldom is > anything felt through the wheel itself that has anything to do withactually > turning fast laps. Of course I realize that FF wheel makers have toprovide > something of "value?" for the money and since the wheel is their onlymethod > of doing so, they overemphasize effects. > > Still this is neither here nor there, the FF devotees will continue tofeel

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> that it is "Way Cool Man" and the serious racers will still buy passive > products so its all a waste of time discussing it :). > > Trev > > > > Trev > >

Cheesh....didn't realize that I would open up this can-o-worms but it's very interesting anyway. For the record, since the original post I ordered a NASCAR Pro Digital. I did find the Thomas site and was impressed but it looked a bit above my price range....and I am too impatient to wait.....sorry! Also....I wasn't in the least bit interested in FF! Having driven a stock car in my youth I know it would take a lot more than anything they can put itno a steering wheel clamped to my desk to be realistic.....maybe they should include a 5 point harness with the FF wheels... Just hope the Pro Digital isn't a bust..... Thanks for all the input. (Don't use NOCRAP in E-mail) You think in the storm we've found the eye of the calm.....Bill Mallonnee, Vigilantes Of Love

Of course he is Ronnie. If anyone looks to a guy that makes his living selling non-force feedback wheels for an objective opinion on FF they are being foolish. I wouldn't expect him to say "wow, the ACT Labs wheel feels great" <G>, and it doesn't surprise me at all to see him throwing the "toy" and "gimmick" descriptions around. The ECCI and Hyperstim guys do the same thing. The writing is on the wall for their products, so they are telling us it is nothing but graffiti. If they don't figure out a way to do force feedback they might as well switch to making pedal upgrade kits - which could be very lucrative. "Ronnie Bigwhip" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:OCPttbPc$GA.241@cpmsnbbsa02... > I think you are lying to protect your own interests Thomas. Or youhave > never really used FF with a sim that implements it well. Or maybeboth. ;)

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> > Trevor Thomas <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:87k8f4$p59$[email hidden]... > > > > mad wrote in message <87k1s1$29ik$[email hidden]>... > > >Hi all > > > > > >I to think FF is a gimmick !! > > >I got a LWFF and was slower then with my homebuild. > > >After 1 month the logi went bad and I got a refund from logitech

( it > > >couldn't be repaired ) > > >By that time I approched the times I did with my homebuild. > > >I took my homebuild again and improved my times the same day . > > >So if I had stayed with my homebuild I would have been quickernow > > >People say " you have to get used to the feeling " that may betrue but I > > >think you will be quicker without FF > > >( I practised 1 month to become almost as quick ) > > >I can't prove this but Greger Hutu is so fast with a thrustmasterF1

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> non > > >FF ) > > >I think if FF would be quicker Greger would have got one !! > > > > > >My two cents > > > > > >Madhouse > > > > > > > > > You pretty well sum up my own feelings toward FF, I dont find it

of any > > value to someone who is serious about PC racing. We own a LWFF andI've > done > > hours of testing it against one of our passive wheels, I dont seeany > > improvement in lap times or speed with the FF and if anythingit'll be > > slightly slower but not by a real margin. > > > > I just dont care for FF personally and IMO the only thing evenremotely > > realistic about it is the wheel jerking when you hit something,this is > only > > true if you have hit in such a way that a front wheel would haveactually > > come into contact with something. This is also unrealistic thoughin that > it > > occurs in any impact with anything else. > > > > In driving a real racecar I'd estimate that 85% of what a driverfeels is > > through the seat of the pants and the other 15% is visual, veryseldom is > > anything felt through the wheel itself that has anything to dowith > actually > > turning fast laps. Of course I realize that FF wheel makers haveto > provide > > something of "value?" for the money and since the wheel is theironly > method > > of doing so, they overemphasize effects. > > > > Still this is neither here nor there, the FF devotees willcontinue to > feel > > that it is "Way Cool Man" and the serious racers will still buypassive

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> > products so its all a waste of time discussing it :). > > > > Trev > > > > > > > > Trev > > > > > >

Trevor Thomas <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:87iaa8$lvk$[email hidden]... > Thats just the problem, there is NO WAY we can offer any kind of TSW orTSW2 > with FF for anywhere near $500.00. This is the reason why you dont see any > high quality wheels with FF, it just isn feasible for a small company todo > this. > > Obviously you dont have a clue about the cost of contracting electronic > components, believe me there is no way a small company could ever affordit. > > We dont feel any pressure to offer FF since our sales steadily increaseeach > year and many of these sales are from former FF owners who have realized > that quality is more important than a gimmck. > > Trev Trev, I replied to several of your posts regarding FF as a gimmick. I not only find it a real aid, but it adds a great deal to the overall driving experience in GPL. Perhaps if you found a way to produce a FF wheel for $500,you just might change your opinion. Joel Willstein [email hidden]

Personally, Trev, I disagree with you here. In GPL FF is IMO NOT a gimmick but a VERY helpful extra clue for car-behaviour. I would not want to go back to a passive wheel. GPL seems to be the exception though, about this.

I'd probably gut a LWFF just to do a prototype to see what the response of a focus group of customers would be to the combo... This whole FF thing has got me intrigued from an engineering standpoint. Are there any websites that document the software interface and touch on mechanical considerations? Regards, Brett C. Cammack That's Racing! Motorsports Pompano Beach, FL

Hi all I to think FF is a gimmick !! I got a LWFF and was slower then with my homebuild. After 1 month the logi went bad and I got a refund from logitech ( it couldn't be repaired ) By that time I approched the times I did with my homebuild. I took my homebuild again and improved my times the same day . So if I had stayed with my homebuild I would have been quicker now People say " you have to get used to the feeling " that may be true but I think you will be quicker without FF ( I practised 1 month to become almost as quick ) I can't prove this but Greger Hutu is so fast with a thrustmaster F1 ( non FF ) I think if FF would be quicker Greger would have got one !! My two cents Madhouse

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> >>Everything the tsw site says is TRUTH. No bull. > >> www.thomas-superwheel.com > Their mechanical skills would easily deal with > >the motor/linkage, and surely they could contract out the elctronics > >at a reasonable cost. There's a big market out there for a FF wheel > >that's not plastic, even at $500 for a basic wheel and up for top of > >the line features. > > bob > Thats just the problem, there is NO WAY we can offer any kind of TSW or

TSW2 > with FF for anywhere near $500.00. This is the reason why you dont see any > high quality wheels with FF, it just isn feasible for a small company to do > this. > Obviously you dont have a clue about the cost of contracting electronic > components, believe me there is no way a small company could ever afford it. > We dont feel any pressure to offer FF since our sales steadily increase each > year and many of these sales are from former FF owners who have realized > that quality is more important than a gimmck. > Trev

mad wrote in message <87k1s1$29ik$[email hidden]>...

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>Hi all > >I to think FF is a gimmick !! >I got a LWFF and was slower then with my homebuild. >After 1 month the logi went bad and I got a refund from logitech ( it >couldn't be repaired ) >By that time I approched the times I did with my homebuild. >I took my homebuild again and improved my times the same day . >So if I had stayed with my homebuild I would have been quicker now >People say " you have to get used to the feeling " that may be true but I >think you will be quicker without FF >( I practised 1 month to become almost as quick ) >I can't prove this but Greger Hutu is so fast with a thrustmaster F1 ( non >FF ) >I think if FF would be quicker Greger would have got one !! > >My two cents > >Madhouse >

You pretty well sum up my own feelings toward FF, I dont find it of any value to someone who is serious about PC racing. We own a LWFF and I've done hours of testing it against one of our passive wheels, I dont see any improvement in lap times or speed with the FF and if anything it'll be slightly slower but not by a real margin. I just dont care for FF personally and IMO the only thing even remotely realistic about it is the wheel jerking when you hit something, this is only true if you have hit in such a way that a front wheel would have actually come into contact with something. This is also unrealistic though in that it occurs in any impact with anything else. In driving a real racecar I'd estimate that 85% of what a driver feels is through the seat of the pants and the other 15% is visual, very seldom is anything felt through the wheel itself that has anything to do with actually turning fast laps. Of course I realize that FF wheel makers have to provide something of "value?" for the money and since the wheel is their only method of doing so, they overemphasize effects. Still this is neither here nor there, the FF devotees will continue to feel that it is "Way Cool Man" and the serious racers will still buy passive products so its all a waste of time discussing it :). Trev Trev

Brett Cammack wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

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>I'd probably gut a LWFF just to do a prototype to see what the >response of a focus group of customers would be to the combo... > >This whole FF thing has got me intrigued from an engineering >standpoint. Are there any websites that document the software >interface and touch on mechanical considerations? > >Regards, >Brett C. Cammack >That's Racing! Motorsports >Pompano Beach, FL

If you are thinking of taking components from a commercial product and installing them in a product you intend to sell, I hope you have a good lawyer and a ton of money, you'll need it<g>! Trev

AndrewS wrote in message ... > >I agree that from an engineering standpoint that it's intriguing. I think >the way for any small company to go about this is to take the electronics >from an existing product (Logitech, Microsoft, Act Labs) and then build a >wheel around them. This will add the cost of a "parts" wheel to the costof >the final product, but I don't think that it's all that big of an issue for >an individual looking for a top notch force feedback wheel. > Andrew, does the word "Patented" mean anything to you :)? I dont think Logitech or any other wheel maker would be overjoyed by finding out that someone had taken their design and incorporated it into another commercial product without permission or compensation do you<g>! Trev

You can say all you want about FF and regular wheels. The future is FF, if you don't change with the times you will sink in a few years. Trustme. Trevor Thomas wrote:

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> mad wrote in message <87k1s1$29ik$[email hidden]>... > >Hi all > > > >I to think FF is a gimmick !! > >I got a LWFF and was slower then with my homebuild. > >After 1 month the logi went bad and I got a refund from logitech ( it > >couldn't be repaired ) > >By that time I approched the times I did with my homebuild. > >I took my homebuild again and improved my times the same day . > >So if I had stayed with my homebuild I would have been quicker now > >People say " you have to get used to the feeling " that may be true but I > >think you will be quicker without FF > >( I practised 1 month to become almost as quick ) > >I can't prove this but Greger Hutu is so fast with a thrustmaster F1 ( non > >FF ) > >I think if FF would be quicker Greger would have got one !! > > > >My two cents > > > >Madhouse > > > > You pretty well sum up my own feelings toward FF, I dont find it of any > value to someone who is serious about PC racing. We own a LWFF and I've done > hours of testing it against one of our passive wheels, I dont see any > improvement in lap times or speed with the FF and if anything it'll be > slightly slower but not by a real margin. > > I just dont care for FF personally and IMO the only thing even remotely > realistic about it is the wheel jerking when you hit something, this is only > true if you have hit in such a way that a front wheel would have actually > come into contact with something. This is also unrealistic though in that it > occurs in any impact with anything else. > > In driving a real racecar I'd estimate that 85% of what a driver feels is > through the seat of the pants and the other 15% is visual, very seldom is > anything felt through the wheel itself that has anything to do with actually > turning fast laps. Of course I realize that FF wheel makers have to provide > something of "value?" for the money and since the wheel is their only method > of doing so, they overemphasize effects. > > Still this is neither here nor there, the FF devotees will continue to feel > that it is "Way Cool Man" and the serious racers will still buy passive > products so its all a waste of time discussing it :). > > Trev > > Trev

Than was NOT my intent. Re-read my message. The idea was, for minimum dollars, create a SINGLE mule wheel with force feedback to see if a focus group of your regular customers would respond positively to the added feature in your product. If the response was strong enough, and they said they would pay enough for the add-on, you could likely cost-justify the capital investment in producing such a product. As far as Logitech giving a rats behind if you bought their units at wholesale, cannabalized them to install the FF gear in your own units, I doubt it. They made their money when you bought the product from them. I suspect that you are too much the "boutique" business to be considered a serious competitor (particularly price-wise). I am not demeaning your efforts at the least, simply observing that they probably shipped more wheels to CompUSA last month than TSW has sold since the doors opened. You could also likely OEM the guts from them, although your volume wouldn't give you much of a break on price, but if your customers really demanded the feature (considering you are a premium equipment provider and charge accordingly) you could cover the cost of including it and maintaining a position of being "state of art" with the big boys. Heck, Logitech would probably love it if you touted their FF gear as being the best and that's why you use it in your premium controllers. Reputation is everything and you've got a good one which with they would benefit from the association. Regards, Brett C. Cammack That's Racing! Motorsports Pompano Beach, FL

Trevor Thomas wrote: > > You pretty well sum up my own feelings toward FF, I dont find it of any > value to someone who is serious about PC racing. Better duck... :)

Hi Thomas Since we seem to think about the same about our racing wheels I have a little question for you Do you think a good potmeter is beter then a digital one ?? There are a few IC's ( xicor , dallas ) who deliver a " analog " resistance value to the gameport They do that in 100 or 256 steps for a resistance of 100K Ohm linear You can provide the steps for these IC's through optical way ( same as used in mouse ) The advantage is the pots can never ware out ( I use bourns but have to change every 3 months ) So I'am looking for a solution. I can start to use spectrol or go for the digital version ( homebuild :) I would like to know your thoughts on this. If I didn't make my racing wheel then I would buy a thomas version !! But I enjoy building and disigning my own very much !! ( about four years now ) If my wheel is done I look and play with it and I am very pleased with it But then I regret that it's finished and start to think what else I can improve :) So buying a thomas will never happen I think THX in advance Madhouse Trevor Thomas <[email hidden]> schreef in berichtnieuws 87k8f4$p59$[email hidden]...

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> > mad wrote in message <87k1s1$29ik$[email hidden]>... > >Hi all > > > >I to think FF is a gimmick !! > >I got a LWFF and was slower then with my homebuild. > >After 1 month the logi went bad and I got a refund from logitech ( it > >couldn't be repaired ) > >By that time I approched the times I did with my homebuild. > >I took my homebuild again and improved my times the same day . > >So if I had stayed with my homebuild I would have been quicker now > >People say " you have to get used to the feeling " that may be true but I > >think you will be quicker without FF > >( I practised 1 month to become almost as quick ) > >I can't prove this but Greger Hutu is so fast with a thrustmaster F1

non

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> >FF ) > >I think if FF would be quicker Greger would have got one !! > > > >My two cents > > > >Madhouse > > > > > You pretty well sum up my own feelings toward FF, I dont find it of any > value to someone who is serious about PC racing. We own a LWFF and I've

done > hours of testing it against one of our passive wheels, I dont see any > improvement in lap times or speed with the FF and if anything it'll be > slightly slower but not by a real margin. > > I just dont care for FF personally and IMO the only thing even remotely > realistic about it is the wheel jerking when you hit something, this isonly > true if you have hit in such a way that a front wheel would have actually > come into contact with something. This is also unrealistic though in thatit > occurs in any impact with anything else. > > In driving a real racecar I'd estimate that 85% of what a driver feels is > through the seat of the pants and the other 15% is visual, very seldom is > anything felt through the wheel itself that has anything to do withactually > turning fast laps. Of course I realize that FF wheel makers have toprovide > something of "value?" for the money and since the wheel is their onlymethod > of doing so, they overemphasize effects. > > Still this is neither here nor there, the FF devotees will continue tofeel

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> that it is "Way Cool Man" and the serious racers will still buy passive > products so its all a waste of time discussing it :). > > Trev > > > > Trev > >

Brett Cammack <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Than was NOT my intent. Re-read my message. The idea was, for > minimum dollars, create a SINGLE mule wheel with force feedback to see > if a focus group of your regular customers would respond positively to > the added feature in your product. If the response was strong enough, > and they said they would pay enough for the add-on, you could likely > cost-justify the capital investment in producing such a product. > > As far as Logitech giving a rats behind if you bought their units at > wholesale, cannabalized them to install the FF gear in your own units, > I doubt it. They made their money when you bought the product from > them. I suspect that you are too much the "boutique" business to be > considered a serious competitor (particularly price-wise). I am not > demeaning your efforts at the least, simply observing that they > probably shipped more wheels to CompUSA last month than TSW has sold > since the doors opened. > > You could also likely OEM the guts from them, although your volume > wouldn't give you much of a break on price, but if your customers > really demanded the feature (considering you are a premium equipment > provider and charge accordingly) you could cover the cost of including > it and maintaining a position of being "state of art" with the big > boys. Heck, Logitech would probably love it if you touted their FF > gear as being the best and that's why you use it in your premium > controllers. Reputation is everything and you've got a good one which > with they would benefit from the association. > > Regards, > Brett C. Cammack > That's Racing! Motorsports > Pompano Beach, FL

Brett, I been following this thread, and have even added my 2 cents twice to it. But you're way off base. TSW would end up in civil court for patent violations and huge fines that would most likely bankrupt the company. No company would let someone use their technology without paying for it. They certainly wouldn't take the position that since TSW feels that their FF is the best, they bought the wheels at wholesale, then used the parts. Every single sim producer has to pay for the rights to tracks, drivers likenesses, cars, engines, tires, etc. If you're going to make a buck, then they want their share. Like it or not, that's how it works in the real world. That's why Pocono isn't in Nascar3. How many Daytonas are there? Look at the deals that Eccelstone wants for every piece of F1. You can't even do internet racing without paying for him for it. So the bottom line as Trev said is that they either design their own, pay for the rights, or stay out of the FF market. Which btw isn't all that big to start with. Joel Willstein [email hidden]

> Andrew, does the word "Patented" mean anything to you :)? I dont think > Logitech or any other wheel maker would be overjoyed by finding out that > someone had taken their design and incorporated it into another commercial > product without permission or compensation do you<g>! > > Trev Why would they care, they've sold a wheel? When I purchase a LWFF I then have the right to do whatever I want with it. I can't resell their technology, but I can take parts out of it and install it and use it elsewhere. I'm not talking about stealing their technology, but simply using the parts. -Andrew Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

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> I just dont care for FF personally and IMO the only thing even remotely > realistic about it is the wheel jerking when you hit something, this is only > true if you have hit in such a way that a front wheel would have actually > come into contact with something. This is also unrealistic though in that it > occurs in any impact with anything else. > > In driving a real racecar I'd estimate that 85% of what a driver feels is > through the seat of the pants and the other 15% is visual, very seldom is > anything felt through the wheel itself that has anything to do with actually > turning fast laps. Of course I realize that FF wheel makers have to provide > something of "value?" for the money and since the wheel is their only method > of doing so, they overemphasize effects. > > Still this is neither here nor there, the FF devotees will continue to feel > that it is "Way Cool Man" and the serious racers will still buy passive > products so its all a waste of time discussing it :). > > Trev

I really have a hard time understanding your attitude towards FF. The computers we use and the devices we connect to them are used to simulate a sport. I find it hard to argue that using FF does not help simulate the sport more closely. Obviously there is currently not cost effective method to provide G forces, panoramic views and fear to the sim racer. There is a simple way to "simulate" road feel and that is through force feedback. Many games may not implement it as well as it should be, but that does not imply that it's worthless. I have another problem with your agument towards FF, and that is that you're faster without FF. This is really quite silly. I've never assumed that FF would make me a faster or better driver, but it does increase my enjoyment of the sport. I've never seen a review or any product hype that touts FF as decreasing lap times. In fact, I fail to see how adding any amount of realism to any sport should decrease the times or increase the scores. If I was playing football, I sure as hell would be better if someone wasn't pounding on me. If I was driving to the hoop, I'd have a better chance of scoring if I wasn't hacked. And if I was trying to turn a sub one minute lap at Daytona, I would be able to do it much better without G forces. Obviously you don't enjoy FF and have no intention of implementing it in your wheels. Your company doesn't have the resources to pull it off, but that doesn't mean it's worthless. If I were you, I'd stick with touting the benefits of the TSW and quit with the negative press towards something you can't offer. It comes off as somewhat petty. I know that's not your intent, but that's my impression. -Andrew Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Ronnie Bigwhip wrote in message ... > I think you are lying to protect your own interests Thomas. Or you have >never really used FF with a sim that implements it well. Or maybe both. ;) Well Ron, just think whatever you want because it doesnt matter at all to me, you wont change my opinion on the FF issue. As usual this is turning into the usual RAS "I'm right, you're wrong" kind of deal and so I plan no more comment on the issue. One other thing, I'm not the one in charge of Thomas Enterprises and I dont make decisions on which products we do or do not produce, FYI. Trev

Yes but you have to keep in mind that cars themselves are not patented heavily. If you investigate the Immersion Licensing agreements, and their patents, you quickly realize that they have a "total monopoly" on FF for use with home gaming. I would stay away from trying to "resell" a FF wheel derived from other wheel manufacturer's parts... because it probably won't be the wheel manufacturers that take you to court... it would be Immersion. You simply CANNOT produce a FF wheel, sell it publicly, and NOT pay Immersion for licensing. It's not "their technology" that they have patented... it's "FF for the home gaming industry" that they have patented. So you can still create your own FF technology for use in home gaming... but ya still have to pay Immersion for the right to use your own technology in home gaming. Even Microsoft had to pay Immersion a licensing fee for their own implementation a few years back. Now they have just adopted the Immersion technology because their monopoly extended into the mainstream wheel manufacturers, and the support soon followed in games. It's not as easy as you may think... you'd think that Microsoft with all their legal prowess would have found a loophole if there was one. You can also bet that they already looked. Cheers, Shumi Tinker <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:6don4.23$[email hidden]... > Interesting you suggest that. Keeping it in the vehicle arena, whathappens > to say those who take a VW, strip the body of it and use the running gear&

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> engine with a new fibre glass top and sell them (commercially) ? > Same concept surely and I can't see them being taken to court anywhere. > > Tinker > > Trevor Thomas wrote in message <87k8f5$p59$[email hidden]>... > > > >Brett Cammack wrote in message > ><[email hidden]>... > >>I'd probably gut a LWFF just to do a prototype to see what the > >>response of a focus group of customers would be to the combo... > >> > >>This whole FF thing has got me intrigued from an engineering > >>standpoint. Are there any websites that document the software > >>interface and touch on mechanical considerations? > >> > >>Regards, > >>Brett C. Cammack > >>That's Racing! Motorsports > >>Pompano Beach, FL > > > >If you are thinking of taking components from a commercial product and > >installing them in a product you intend to sell, I hope you have a good > >lawyer and a ton of money, you'll need it<g>! > > > >Trev > > > > > >

"Tracey A Miller" <[email hidden]> wrote > If they don't figure out a way to do force feedback they might as well > switch to making pedal upgrade kits - which could be very lucrative. LOL! I would really like to see the long-time plan of those 3 companies. To the eyes of now a majority of simracers, Force Feedback is not a gimmick anymore, and of course, those people are the market for quality wheels. And yes it's normal psychology that those companies won't promote concurrential products. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Tinker <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:6don4.23$[email hidden]... > Interesting you suggest that. Keeping it in the vehicle arena, whathappens > to say those who take a VW, strip the body of it and use the running gear& > engine with a new fibre glass top and sell them (commercially) ? > Same concept surely and I can't see them being taken to court anywhere. > > Tinker In your example, a VW was purchased (somewhere along the way) to make this enhanced product possible. If you are planing on purchasing the LWFF enhancing it, and reselling, then you should be fine.

Andrew, You're missing the point here. You as a consumer can buy anything you want, then take it about and use the parts in any way you want for your OWN personal use. You don't have the legal right to do that with products that you will sell without getting a license from the original maker Like it or not, it's the law. Joel Willstein

Interesting you suggest that. Keeping it in the vehicle arena, what happens to say those who take a VW, strip the body of it and use the running gear & engine with a new fibre glass top and sell them (commercially) ? Same concept surely and I can't see them being taken to court anywhere. Tinker Trevor Thomas wrote in message <87k8f5$p59$[email hidden]>...

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> >Brett Cammack wrote in message ><[email hidden]>... >>I'd probably gut a LWFF just to do a prototype to see what the >>response of a focus group of customers would be to the combo... >> >>This whole FF thing has got me intrigued from an engineering >>standpoint. Are there any websites that document the software >>interface and touch on mechanical considerations? >> >>Regards, >>Brett C. Cammack >>That's Racing! Motorsports >>Pompano Beach, FL > >If you are thinking of taking components from a commercial product and >installing them in a product you intend to sell, I hope you have a good >lawyer and a ton of money, you'll need it<g>! > >Trev > >

Maybe Papyrus' GPL FF patch will be the undoing of TSW and ECCI? Well... I remember not that long ago Papyrus had a similar "gimmick" stance on FF. From all the talk around here, they seem to have done a fine job with it in the GPL patch. Not so well in N3, the difference being the physics model, so if N4 will really incorporate a GPL-like model I would think FF will be excellent in it as well. If that's the case, you will see many more new FF owners. My point... the users gave their opinion, Papy did their research, and put in their hard work to give the users what they wanted. I recently ordered my Act Labs Force RS, with RS shifter. For the past few years, I had thought about putting aside money to buy a TSW or ECCI wheel someday, but am now glad I didn't. Even if I don't get a split second faster on any tracks in any sims, the immersion factor that FF will surely give me will be just what I'm looking for. I'm looking forward to getting some kind of feel for the road and car via the forces in the wheel. I would logically think that I will develop more consistent fast laps due to this new road/car feel. The next big step for FF will be a feel for the road and car through the pedals. If someone can successfully manage that it would immediately garner my attention. Oh Trev... you probably should have just told us that TSW has decided against implementing FF at this time and left it at that. It's rare that a company would make an "opinion statement" on a public forum and not be slapped around for it. Unfortunately, companies/businesses aren't allowed to have opinions. Dave Ericson MomoBoy online JDB Racing

Brett Cammack wrote: > I WAS > REALLY ONLY SUGGESTING THAT IF TSW WANTED TO KNOW WHAT THEIR CUSTOMERS > THOUGHT OF A FF PRODUCT THEY COULD MOCK SOMETHING UP FOR CHEAP AND > FIND OUT EASILY. Not so fast there..... There is a large difference between jury-rigging a setup and delivering a well-tested and implemented product. Sure Thomas could do a mock up, and maybe pick up a few pre-sales to boot. But the R&D required to mix and match off-the-shelf components and have them really "match" (and perform reliably) is far beyond the means of your average backyard tinkerer. Thomas would need to procure a _team_ of engineers at great expense, payable upfront. Then, the initial batch volume would need to be high enough to increase the "economies of scale" for production, and decrease the cost of the B.O.M. such that a competitive street price could be offered. It's not that Thomas couldn't do it. It's just that you guy's EXPECT Thomas to be born with the ability to merely snap his fingers and produce a 7-figure financial package for R&D/ start up. Rick

On Mon, 7 Feb 2000 11:46:03 -0400, "Joel Willstein" >No >company would let someone use their technology without paying for it. Amusing. You speak as if they hijacked a truck full of them or something. Distributor cost is twice their cost to produce, market and support. Retail price is twice distributor cost. Logitech makes their nut whether somebody buys 'em and cannabalizes them for parts or makes an artificial reef out of them. Have you asked them? There's a surprising amount of ego in this business. What does that have to do with steel, plastic and silicon? Is the hardware inside a LWFF wheel something famous that has marketing rights? Is it singular and unique, readily identifiable by name or image? That's what's licensed, not bits of material nobody sees. Certainly there are patents, etc. As someone else pointed out, there's somebody who has a patent on FF technology for computer *** and that might be considered as an issue, however, Logitech has the license and the FF hardware was made and sold by them and they do have a license and a portion of the procedes of the sale went to the license holder. Are you a patent attorney? Involved in the upper eschelon of deal-making in the high-tech industry? If so, please present your particulars regarding the foundations of your pronouncements on the subject. My observations are predecated on a quarter-century of experience in the computer/high-tech industry and are a first-order approximation of what might be possible based on everything I've assimilated in experiencing how business is done in that arena. Logitech is either in business to make money or they're idiots and I doubt the latter is true. If you put money in their coffers and do not pose a threat to their revenue stream you have little to concern yourself. By all means it is sensible to have dialog with them before commiting to a business plan, but when all is said and done... I WAS REALLY ONLY SUGGESTING THAT IF TSW WANTED TO KNOW WHAT THEIR CUSTOMERS THOUGHT OF A FF PRODUCT THEY COULD MOCK SOMETHING UP FOR CHEAP AND FIND OUT EASILY. Market research is pretty damned important if you don't know. Regards, Brett C. Cammack That's Racing! Motorsports Pompano Beach, FL

Sorry but I just can't agree here. I too thought the FF stuff was just a gimmick but then decided to try it out and took the plunge and bought a MSFF in December. !!AWESOME!! is the only way I can describe how I felt about it after a very short time.... The feedback is definately a big help in determining what is happening with the car and as well as now putting in faster lap times I am also much more consistent than I ever was before. I have also now got a LWFF and am equally impressed with this product.... I certainly wouldn't go back to a non-FF device now except if it was as a temporary measure if anything ever goes wrong with my 2 FF setups. I admit to now being a 'FF devotee' but would also consider myself to be a serious racer as well, I don't see why there has to be a distinction between the two. Peter Hooper Trevor Thomas <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:87k8f4$p59$[email hidden]... > > You pretty well sum up my own feelings toward FF, I dont find it of any > value to someone who is serious about PC racing. We own a LWFF and I'vedone > hours of testing it against one of our passive wheels, I dont see any > improvement in lap times or speed with the FF and if anything it'll be > slightly slower but not by a real margin. > > I just dont care for FF personally and IMO the only thing even remotely > realistic about it is the wheel jerking when you hit something, this isonly > true if you have hit in such a way that a front wheel would have actually > come into contact with something. This is also unrealistic though in thatit > occurs in any impact with anything else. > > In driving a real racecar I'd estimate that 85% of what a driver feels is > through the seat of the pants and the other 15% is visual, very seldom is > anything felt through the wheel itself that has anything to do withactually > turning fast laps. Of course I realize that FF wheel makers have toprovide > something of "value?" for the money and since the wheel is their onlymethod > of doing so, they overemphasize effects. > > Still this is neither here nor there, the FF devotees will continue tofeel

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> that it is "Way Cool Man" and the serious racers will still buy passive > products so its all a waste of time discussing it :). > > Trev > > > > Trev > >

I could do it in a weekend with a Sherline lathe and mill and it would look like it came from the factory that way. Regards, Brett C. Cammack That's Racing! Motorsports Pompano Beach, FL

That's where I felt that Treavor and other like-minded sim'mers were missing the point. No, it doesn't give you a perfectly correct simulation of what you feel through the wheel of a race car, but it give you some tactile feedback which is desparately lacking from driving sims at present. I wish I could feel what the car was doing with my ***and inner ear, but I *can't*, so I'm darned glad to have some more cues to help me even if they aren't "correct". Regards, Brett C. Cammack That's Racing! Motorsports Pompano Beach, FL