"Deadzones are the most hideous disaster in racing games."

Every once in a while I go download every demo that looks interesting to me and try them all out. Got about ten yesterday and three started looking pretty good. I will probably buy Arena and SCGT. Swedish Touring Car Championship, on the other hand, I won't buy. Oddly enough, it is the one I want most. I was very impressed with the STCC playable demo. I am what could be considered a hard-core sim enthusiast. Always on the prowl for a new game. STCC's graphics blew me away right from the start. The track layout and curb and surface textures are very well done. The sounds are excellent. (Not usually so in games.) The physics - very much acceptable. A fun car to race around. I would buy it right now except for three minor errors which make it unenjoyable. 1. Forgivable - the AI are far too slow. Patchable, I would hope. 2. Forgivable - no tire sound in understeer. Even with the excuse that in real life you don't hear understeer skidding, (which is a false statement) in sim land we need to use sight and sound in unrealistic ways to compensate for lack of stimuli in other areas. 3. Unforgivable - no deadzone and slope settings. While the brake and throttle slopes are usable, the steering is hideous. The slope looks like this on my machine: 100-100-100-100-100-95-40-35-25-02-01-00-00-CENTER-00-00-01.... You get the point? I turn the wheel, the car doesn't turn. I turn some more, the car spins. This leads to anxiety and a complete lack of confidence. Thus, anticipation is moot. Either end of the spectrum would be slightly playable or at least adjustable with CTFJ3. But at this point it is too aggravating to try playing with. When are these clowns gonna learn?! All proper racing games should have complete controller adjustment. For an example, pick up Geoff Crammonds Grand Prix II. At the very least, all games should have controller screens that detailed. Without it, anyone who owns a wheel is off the list. Even the great GPL fell short in this area. I had to physically rebuild my pedals to make it playable. At least there's no deadzone. As far as I'm concerned anything with a deazone is garbage. MGPRS with Crammonds Advanced Controller Settings would probably be a really good game. But for a little effort, most companies will ruin a perfectly good title... :-( Too bad.... I would love to own STCC if it were a proper racing game. -- Mark "Deadzones are the most hideous disaster in racing games." Jeangerard New Mexico USA

On Wed, 2 Feb 2000 12:37:03 -0700, "Mark Jeangerard" SNIP SNIP It struck me the other day what a nice controller setup screen Viper Racing has. (I'm back to playing that ol' game >again<). It has settings for deadzone and range for all three axis. PLUS it has a nice feedback "thermometer" that allows you to see that you get the full throw for throttle/gas. Hit the throttle and the adjust range so that the thermometer just hits the top end. The only thing lacking is a better linearity adjustment. Now it's just a checkbox for Non-linear steering on/off. /petern

Right. Let me change that to "default deazones." I'm no programmer, but how hard could it be to make a -0- deadzone with a dial or slider to open it up if necessary. Programs like CTFJ3 can open one up, but not close one down. It just amazes me... some of the decisions manufacturers make. :-) -- Mark Jeangerard www.soundchaserweb.com New Mexico USA

I couldn't find a demo on that one. I have heard a lot about it though. I better start looking for it in the bargain bins. -- Mark Jeangerard www.soundchaserweb.com New Mexico USA

> When are these clowns gonna learn?! All proper racing games should have > complete controller adjustment. Designing good controls (for anything) requires some thought -- and in many (most?) cases controls are not designed but are merely an "after thought". Bad controls happen in real cars too (all the time<sigh>) and even in race cars. I was just at a race shop where they were building a new throttle pedal & linkage for the racing version of a very well known high powered sports car. The original equipment throttle pedal and linkage was so bad (kept the driver from putting the power down smoothly, etc.) that the new arrangement was worth a _lot_ in lap time. Part of the problem (imo) is that people are very adaptable, and if the drivers just "adapt" to the bad controls to the point where they can "get by", then there is never any feedback to the designers to do a better job. One place where real thought often goes into designing the controls is in aircraft, especially military aircraft. -- Doug Milliken Research Associates Inc.

I always have to give a little grin when I read your posts here, Mr. Milliken. To know that one of the minds that helped created *THE* book (I own a copy, BTW) is lurking here in this news group makes me happy. -Chris- PS: Have you ever played GPL? I'd be curious to know what your perception of its vehicle dynamics is.

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> > When are these clowns gonna learn?! All proper racing games > > should have complete controller adjustment. > Designing good controls (for anything) requires some thought -- > and in many (most?) cases controls are not designed but are > merely an "after thought". > Bad controls happen in real cars too (all the time<sigh>) and > even in race cars. I was just at a race shop where they were > building a new throttle pedal & linkage for the racing version > of a very well known high powered sports car. The original > equipment throttle pedal and linkage was so bad (kept the driver > from putting the power down smoothly, etc.) that the new > arrangement was worth a _lot_ in lap time. > Part of the problem (imo) is that people are very adaptable, > and if the drivers just "adapt" to the bad controls to the > point where they can "get by", then there is never any feedback > to the designers to do a better job. > One place where real thought often goes into designing the > controls is in aircraft, especially military aircraft. > -- Doug > Milliken Research Associates Inc.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

It's a lot of fun. I kind of lost interest, though, because while the cars are really fun to drive, the tracks are a bit arcadish. -Chris-

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> I couldn't find a demo on that one. I have heard a lot about > it though. I better start looking for it in the bargain bins. > -- > Mark Jeangerard > www.soundchaserweb.com > New Mexico USA > > It struck me the other day what a nice controller setup screen Viper > > Racing has. (I'm back to playing that ol' game >again<). > > It has settings for deadzone and range for all three axis. PLUS it

has > > a nice feedback "thermometer" that allows you to see that you get the > > full throw for throttle/gas. Hit the throttle and the adjust range so > > that the thermometer just hits the top end. > > The only thing lacking is a better linearity adjustment. Now it's just > > a checkbox for Non-linear steering on/off. > > /petern Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Yes... I've had exerienced that myself. The turbo MR2 and early turbo 300ZX come to mind. Impossible to heel toe either. I got an answer from the STCC people: <on deadzone and slope> 3. Yeah, sorry about that, we didn't think it was that important. We thought people used external programs like CTFJ3 or setup programs that came with their controller. Not sure why CTFJ3 doesn't work for you, we're making a very similar system for Rally Masters, checkout: http://www.simracingnews.com/rallymasters for info about the game. Regards, / Vidar Nygren Programmer Digital Illusions CE AB, P.o. Box 53160, S-400 15 Gothenburg Sweden (CTFJ3 doesn't work because my slope is like this: 100-100-100-100-100-95-40-35-25-02-01-00-00-CENTER-00-00-01.... ) That makes me think that they used one controller in testing. (sigh) > One place where real thought often goes into designing the controls is in > aircraft, especially military aircraft. > -- Doug > Milliken Research Associates Inc.

Couldn't agree more Mark. I even found this to be a problem in SCGT though not to the extent of some others. You could try CTFJ but I have found that it only works on some titles. Cheers, Andrew Every once in a while I go download every demo that looks interesting to me and try them all out. Got about ten yesterday and three started looking pretty good. I will probably buy Arena and SCGT. Swedish Touring Car Championship, on the other hand, I won't buy. Oddly enough, it is the one I want most. I was very impressed with the STCC playable demo. I am what could be considered a hard-core sim enthusiast. Always on the prowl for a new game. STCC's graphics blew me away right from the start. The track layout and curb and surface textures are very well done. The sounds are excellent. (Not usually so in games.) The physics - very much acceptable. A fun car to race around. I would buy it right now except for three minor errors which make it unenjoyable. 1. Forgivable - the AI are far too slow. Patchable, I would hope. 2. Forgivable - no tire sound in understeer. Even with the excuse that in real life you don't hear understeer skidding, (which is a false statement) in sim land we need to use sight and sound in unrealistic ways to compensate for lack of stimuli in other areas. 3. Unforgivable - no deadzone and slope settings. While the brake and throttle slopes are usable, the steering is hideous. The slope looks like this on my machine: 100-100-100-100-100-95-40-35-25-02-01-00-00-CENTER-00-00-01.... You get the point? I turn the wheel, the car doesn't turn. I turn some more, the car spins. This leads to anxiety and a complete lack of confidence. Thus, anticipation is moot. Either end of the spectrum would be slightly playable or at least adjustable with CTFJ3. But at this point it is too aggravating to try playing with. When are these clowns gonna learn?! All proper racing games should have complete controller adjustment. For an example, pick up Geoff Crammonds Grand Prix II. At the very least, all games should have controller screens that detailed. Without it, anyone who owns a wheel is off the list. Even the great GPL fell short in this area. I had to physically rebuild my pedals to make it playable. At least there's no deadzone. As far as I'm concerned anything with a deazone is garbage. MGPRS with Crammonds Advanced Controller Settings would probably be a really good game. But for a little effort, most companies will ruin a perfectly good title... Too bad.... I would love to own STCC if it were a proper racing game. -- Mark "Deadzones are the most hideous disaster in racing games." Jeangerard New Mexico USA

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> I always have to give a little grin when I read your posts here, Mr. > Milliken. To know that one of the minds that helped created *THE* book > (I own a copy, BTW) is lurking here in this news group makes me happy. > -Chris- > PS: Have you ever played GPL? I'd be curious to know what your > perception of its vehicle dynamics is.

I have THE book, too, and that is the exact same question I always wanted to ask the authors! Greetings, Gregor

I've just stumbled on this thread, but it's caught my interest because of a recent problem I'd been thinking about. For some time, I'd been having a fine time running ICR2 and GP2. Then, to make this machine more suitable for musical work here, I had to ditch the trusty old SB16 and I installed a Creative Labs/Ensoniq AudioPCI card. Sadly, this meant no more DOS sims. I have a TM NASCAR Sprint wheel, which I use in "paddle mode" (since the physical setup here isn't practical for setting up pedals, this was a good solution). It worked great in my Past Era of DOS with the sims I mentioned. Wanting a racing sim of some sort, I looked around and found NASCAR 1999 for $20. Not quite what I wanted, but cool, especially once I found and set up the TPTCC patch and converted ICR2 tracks to NR1999. The wheel works very well with that sim. I thought SCGT sounded great, and when I found it cheap at a local store, I was psyched. Took it home, installed it, almost puked. Was VERY glad I bought it cheap. It has good things about it, but the worst of the things that made me blow it off. I could NOT find any way of setting the control response in the game setup that would make it drivable. No matter how I set the sliders, it was like I had this big dead zone in the center of the steering, until I'd get to a certain wheel angle, then ZIP, the car would dart to the side. I gave up in disgust. I'd been checking stores here and there for a copy of CART racing, the w95 version of ICR2, and about a week ago I suddenly noticed on one of the sim websites an update patch to turn ICR2 into the w95 version. Hey! Yes! Great! I downloaded and ran the patch and it looked like I was set other than the funky palette problems with my converted tracks (N1 Atlanta and ICR1 Indy). Then I realized, wait, the steering isn't right. I tried recalibrating, but over a large angle in the center of the steering range, there was no response. Nothing. I'd turn the wheel and get nothing until suddenly it would kick in and dart. Whine and moan and bitch and back to NR1999/TPTCC again, which has no such problems. I could think it was a problem with the wheel itself or maybe (since I had changed soundcards) the gameport itself on the AudioPCI, except that NR1999 works fine. I thought perhaps maybe it was just the difference in the physics model and that the stockcar/touring car physics masked a problem that showed up with the more precise and nimble indycar/champcar, but going out on the track and experimenting showed that, no, in fact there was clean smooth response to my steering inputs in the very center of the steering range. I'm stumped. Any clues, anyone? Thanks, JLE

John Eagan <[email hidden]> wrote: [Dead zone steering problems snipped] > > I'm stumped. Any clues, anyone? > > Thanks, > JLE > See if you can't get hold of a copy of DXtweak.exe. It is a little program that will enable you to set your dead zone settings in directx. I used it to set my dead zones to zero and I was completely amazed at how much more control I had in GPL. You may be experiencing the same kind of problem. -Chris- PS: I'm sorry, but I don't have the link to where I picked it up. I know it's out there, though. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Just a guess as i havent run any of the Papy sims except GPL for a while, but is the controller setup in the game as a joystick or wheel ? I think it changes the linearity if you select joystick which can make it feel like a large deadzone. -- Ian Parker [email hidden] UKGPL League http://members.xoom.com/ukgpl == John Eagan <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I've just stumbled on this thread, but it's caught my interest because > of a recent problem I'd been thinking about. > > For some time, I'd been having a fine time running ICR2 and GP2. Then, > to make this machine more suitable for musical work here, I had to ditch > the trusty old SB16 and I installed a Creative Labs/Ensoniq AudioPCI > card. Sadly, this meant no more DOS sims. > > I have a TM NASCAR Sprint wheel, which I use in "paddle mode" (since the > physical setup here isn't practical for setting up pedals, this was a > good solution). It worked great in my Past Era of DOS with the sims I > mentioned. Wanting a racing sim of some sort, I looked around and found > NASCAR 1999 for $20. Not quite what I wanted, but cool, especially once > I found and set up the TPTCC patch and converted ICR2 tracks to NR1999. > The wheel works very well with that sim. > > I thought SCGT sounded great, and when I found it cheap at a local > store, I was psyched. Took it home, installed it, almost puked. Was VERY > glad I bought it cheap. It has good things about it, but the worst of > the things that made me blow it off. I could NOT find any way of setting > the control response in the game setup that would make it drivable. No > matter how I set the sliders, it was like I had this big dead zone in > the center of the steering, until I'd get to a certain wheel angle, then > ZIP, the car would dart to the side. I gave up in disgust. > > I'd been checking stores here and there for a copy of CART racing, the > w95 version of ICR2, and about a week ago I suddenly noticed on one of > the sim websites an update patch to turn ICR2 into the w95 version. Hey! > Yes! Great! I downloaded and ran the patch and it looked like I was set > other than the funky palette problems with my converted tracks (N1 > Atlanta and ICR1 Indy). Then I realized, wait, the steering isn't right. > I tried recalibrating, but over a large angle in the center of the > steering range, there was no response. Nothing. I'd turn the wheel and > get nothing until suddenly it would kick in and dart. Whine and moan and > bitch and back to NR1999/TPTCC again, which has no such problems. > > I could think it was a problem with the wheel itself or maybe (since I > had changed soundcards) the gameport itself on the AudioPCI, except that > NR1999 works fine. I thought perhaps maybe it was just the difference in > the physics model and that the stockcar/touring car physics masked a > problem that showed up with the more precise and nimble > indycar/champcar, but going out on the track and experimenting showed > that, no, in fact there was clean smooth response to my steering inputs > in the very center of the steering range. > > I'm stumped. Any clues, anyone? > > Thanks, > JLE

www.wingmanteam.com, under 'gadgets' I believe. Andre

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>[Dead zone steering problems snipped] >> I'm stumped. Any clues, anyone? >> Thanks, >> JLE >See if you can't get hold of a copy of DXtweak.exe. It is a little >program that will enable you to set your dead zone settings in >directx. I used it to set my dead zones to zero and I was completely >amazed at how much more control I had in GPL. You may be experiencing >the same kind of problem. >-Chris- >PS: I'm sorry, but I don't have the link to where I picked it up. I >know it's out there, though. >Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ >Before you buy.

Thanks (and thanks also to Andre for the link). I've just downloaded it, and will give that a try later today when I get a chance. JLE

In ICR2 patched to become a w95 version, as I'm now running, the only option in that respect is to use linear steering or not. I have it set to linear. It's strange, though. While your thought on this is logical, the problem I'm experiencing is not so much that the response is slower in the middle range (like it is with certain sims where you have a "non-linear" setting), but, rather, it's like there is NOTHING happening in the center of the range, until you get about 5-10 degrees of input cranked into the wheel, and then suddenly it's like there you are with the front wheels instantly pointed that way. It's damn near impossible to drive that way, and incredibly aggravating. I've gone back and tried it again now and then when I've thought "God, I miss driving that, maybe I can get used to it". Nope. It's awful. The best analogy I can make is that it's like driving a car that has completely worn out steering linkage, or a steering rack that has the teeth in the middle of the rack shorn off or something. JLE

Check out http://home.att.net/~stickworks/swdownld.html for a utility called: CTFJV320.ZIP It lets you tweak a bunch of stuff including the deadzone and the linearity of the steering axis response. Very cool. Regards, Zenon Zenon Holtz ACT LABS Ltd. "Everything else is just a toy" (tm) http://www.act-labs.com

Zenon- Thanks for the suggestion (just read this, I'm trying to catch up on some reading). I did go and grab CTFJ 3.20 some days ago, but it didn't seem to solve my problem at all. It's really strange. The wheel works fine in NR1999, worked great in DOS ICR2 and GP2, but not the patched to win95 ICR2. I've given up on it unless some other new information pops up. JLE

Thats because windows has a deadzone hardcoded into direct X. ctfj doesn't fix this. Go to the Logitech site and look for a program called DXtweek. this "supposedly" reduces the DirectX deadzone. dave henrie

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> Zenon- > Thanks for the suggestion (just read this, I'm trying to catch up on > some reading). > I did go and grab CTFJ 3.20 some days ago, but it didn't seem to solve > my problem at all. It's really strange. The wheel works fine in NR1999, > worked great in DOS ICR2 and GP2, but not the patched to win95 ICR2. > I've given up on it unless some other new information pops up. > JLE

Deadzone can be great and bad... You are more apt to be going straight down the track with a large deadzone. But little more difficult to drive.. DW

DXtweek doesn't help, either. Actually, I'm not sure, does ICR2/w95 even use DirectX? I've noticed that NR1999 has an option to use either DirectX or Papyrus drivers for the controller, and the w95 patched ICR2 has no such option. I had a similar problem with SCGT (which I tossed aside), making that undrivable also, so I keep wondering if it's a problem with the wheel (TM NASCAR Sprint) or the gameport on my sound card (Creative Labs/Ensoniq AudioPCI), but I keep coming back to the fact that everything seems fine running NR1999. JLE