LWFF or TSW steering wheel?

I'm thinking of a steering wheel upgrade and wonder whether it'd be better to invest in a force feedback wheel (LWFF, preferably) or a sturdy and smooth, but passive Thomas wheel. I've thought mainly of getting the TSW, but Allison Hine and many others say force feedback really enhances GPL and gives a better sense of what's happening. I'll use the wheel mainly with GPL, Papyrus' NASCAR sims, and a little Viper Racing. Also, I'm planning on either Thomas or Redline (http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/lakewood/Redline2.htm pedals so the ones included with the LWFF won't be a factor. -- ----------------------------------- Morgan Vincent Wooten http://members.tripod.com/~morganv/ -----------------------------------

Just know this - If you go with analog pedals plugged into your game port and a FF wheel in either serial or USB, you will only be able to use both at the same time in only 3 sims that I know of (RC2K, N3 & GPL). No one else see's both controllers simultaneously in their game setup options (again, that I am aware of). I own a TSW2 and an Act Labs Force RS. As we speak both units are at Thomas Enterprises being united. I'm also having my pedals upgraded with separate axes and a clutch. When I get everything back I'll have my FF wheel and TSW2 pedals (with clutch) all seen as one controller. Can't wait! --David Cook > I'm thinking of a steering wheel upgrade and wonder whether it'd be better to > invest in a force feedback wheel (LWFF, preferably) or a sturdy and smooth, but > passive Thomas wheel. I've thought mainly of getting the TSW, but Allison Hine > and many others say force feedback really enhances GPL and gives a better sense > of what's happening. I'll use the wheel mainly with GPL, Papyrus' NASCAR sims, > and a little Viper Racing. Also, I'm planning on either Thomas or Redline > (http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/lakewood/Redline2.htm) pedals so the ones included

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> with the LWFF won't be a factor. > -- > ----------------------------------- > Morgan Vincent Wooten > http://members.tripod.com/~morganv/ > -----------------------------------

I've had a TSW for about 2 years now, and it's a great wheel. However, Allison's site also convinced me to try a LWFF, which I just got a few days ago. My impressions? Excellent. Although I haven't gotten time to tweak the FF settings yet, I can already see how they add to the whole experience. The LWFF wheel has a nice feel to it, and I don't find the pedals as bad as some say (although the TSW pedals are vastly superior). Unfortunately, I'm running Win95, so right now USB installation for the LWFF isn't an option for me. However, I haven't noticed any framerate hit by using the LWFF and the serial port. One caveat if you're running Win95 and want to install this wheel (and this may only have applied to my funky system) -- installation was a PAIN until I got very good help from www.wingmanteam.com. In fact, I just got the FF to work for the first time last night (although when I just booted now, the LWFF didn't fire up -- I'll have to investigate). I guess the bottom line of what I'm saying is the LWFF really impressed me when it works. I think an ideal combo would be LWFF wheel on USB, and TSW pedals thru the gameport (if that would even work...). Hope this helps.

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> I'm thinking of a steering wheel upgrade and wonder whether it'd be better to > invest in a force feedback wheel (LWFF, preferably) or a sturdy and smooth, but > passive Thomas wheel. I've thought mainly of getting the TSW, but Allison Hine > and many others say force feedback really enhances GPL and gives a better sense > of what's happening. I'll use the wheel mainly with GPL, Papyrus' NASCAR sims, > and a little Viper Racing. Also, I'm planning on either Thomas or Redline > (http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/lakewood/Redline2.htm) pedals so the ones included > with the LWFF won't be a factor. > -- > ----------------------------------- > Morgan Vincent Wooten > http://members.tripod.com/~morganv/ > -----------------------------------

My experience with FF is that it's VERY cool at first, and then -- for me -- it becomes just a gimmicky distraction. I appreciate a solid-feeling controller -- if the wheel in my hands doesn't feel like it's as sturdy as the wheel in my car, then it feels like a toy for me, and this is where EVERY FF wheel I've laid hands on comes up short. The TSW and TSW2 wheels feel like they could have been pulled from a real car -- I can lean on them, pound on them in frustration, and even prop my feet on them without having to worry about how delicate they are. THIS is my #1 grip against FF wheels at this point, and it may contribute to my feeling that FF is just a gimmick at this point. I will say that I haven't yet tried FF with GPL, but based on my experiences with Viper (EXCELLENT FF), SCGT (mediocre), and NFS (mediocre driving simulation to begin with), I remain unimpressed with FF at this point -- enough so that I haven't felt it worth my while to see what all the fuss is about GPL. I "feel" enough through the visual interface, and the leather-and-suede wrapped steering wheel on my TSW2 feels plenty real enough in GPL for me. I think the bottom line is that anybody who is thinking about buying a FF wheel should try one out at great length before they buy, lest they find themselves suffering buyer's remorse early on, then knocking on TSW's or ECCI's door a year or so down the road when the plastic wears thin. <G> Just my $0.02. -- JB impressed me when it pedals thru the

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> gameport (if that would even work...). > Hope this helps. > > I'm thinking of a steering wheel upgrade and wonder whether it'd be

better to > > invest in a force feedback wheel (LWFF, preferably) or a sturdy and smooth, but > > passive Thomas wheel. I've thought mainly of getting the TSW, but Allison Hine > > and many others say force feedback really enhances GPL and gives a better sense > > of what's happening. I'll use the wheel mainly with GPL, Papyrus' NASCAR sims, > > and a little Viper Racing. Also, I'm planning on either Thomas or Redline > > (http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/lakewood/Redline2.htm) pedals so the ones included

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> > with the LWFF won't be a factor. > > -- > > ----------------------------------- > > Morgan Vincent Wooten > > http://members.tripod.com/~morganv/ > > -----------------------------------

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

My experience is exactly the opposite. I had a plastic non-FF wheel then "upgraded" to one of the heavy, steel, high school shop class wheels and was very disappointed. Fortunately, the manufacturer lived up to their satisfaction guarantee so I got a refund and bought a LWFF wheel. The difference is unbelievable. At first it was not "very cool", it took some getting used to, and a lot of tweaking of the settings (thanks Alison) to get it to feel right. Now I wouldn't trade my LWFF for even a hyperstimulator if the hyperstim didn't have FF. If you just download your setups off the internet and run hotlaps, then a standard wheel might be the best choice. But for feeling what the car is doing in order to make changes, or when required to run the unpreferred line in traffic, FF is the way to go IMHO. > My experience with FF is that it's VERY cool at first, and then -- for > me -- it becomes just a gimmicky distraction. I appreciate a > solid-feeling controller -- if the wheel in my hands doesn't feel like > it's as sturdy as the wheel in my car, then it feels like a toy for me, > and this is where EVERY FF wheel I've laid hands on comes up short. The

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> TSW and TSW2 wheels feel like they could have been pulled from a real > car -- I can lean on them, pound on them in frustration, and even prop > my feet on them without having to worry about how delicate they are. > THIS is my #1 grip against FF wheels at this point, and it may > contribute to my feeling that FF is just a gimmick at this point. > I will say that I haven't yet tried FF with GPL, but based on my > experiences with Viper (EXCELLENT FF), SCGT (mediocre), and NFS > (mediocre driving simulation to begin with), I remain unimpressed with > FF at this point -- enough so that I haven't felt it worth my while to > see what all the fuss is about GPL. I "feel" enough through the

visual

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> interface, and the leather-and-suede wrapped steering wheel on my TSW2 > feels plenty real enough in GPL for me. > I think the bottom line is that anybody who is thinking about buying a > FF wheel should try one out at great length before they buy, lest they > find themselves suffering buyer's remorse early on, then knocking on > TSW's or ECCI's door a year or so down the road when the plastic wears > thin. <G> > Just my $0.02. > -- JB > > I've had a TSW for about 2 years now, and it's a great wheel. > However, Allison's > > site also convinced me to try a LWFF, which I just got a few days

ago. > > My impressions? Excellent. Although I haven't gotten time to tweak > the FF > > settings yet, I can already see how they add to the whole experience.

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> The LWFF > > wheel has a nice feel to it, and I don't find the pedals as bad as > some say > > (although the TSW pedals are vastly superior). > > Unfortunately, I'm running Win95, so right now USB installation for > the LWFF isn't > > an option for me. However, I haven't noticed any framerate hit by > using the LWFF > > and the serial port. > > One caveat if you're running Win95 and want to install this wheel

(and > this may > > only have applied to my funky system) -- installation was a PAIN until

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> I got very > > good help from www.wingmanteam.com. In fact, I just got the FF to > work for the > > first time last night (although when I just booted now, the LWFF > didn't fire up -- > > I'll have to investigate). > > I guess the bottom line of what I'm saying is the LWFF really > impressed me when it > > works. I think an ideal combo would be LWFF wheel on USB, and TSW > pedals thru the > > gameport (if that would even work...). > > Hope this helps. > > > I'm thinking of a steering wheel upgrade and wonder whether it'd

be > better to > > > invest in a force feedback wheel (LWFF, preferably) or a sturdy and

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> smooth, but > > > passive Thomas wheel. I've thought mainly of getting the TSW, but > Allison Hine > > > and many others say force feedback really enhances GPL and gives a > better sense > > > of what's happening. I'll use the wheel mainly with GPL, Papyrus' > NASCAR sims, > > > and a little Viper Racing. Also, I'm planning on either Thomas or > Redline > > > (http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/lakewood/Redline2.htm) pedals so the > ones included > > > with the LWFF won't be a factor. > > > -- > > > ----------------------------------- > > > Morgan Vincent Wooten > > > http://members.tripod.com/~morganv/ > > > ----------------------------------- > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

>If you don't mind my asking, what does Thomas Enterprises charge to "merge" the >Force RS wheel with their pedals? Do they do this with other wheels such as the >LWFF? We probably could do this, the best thing for you to do is email Dave Jr and Thats one reason why we have such a good rep in the PC racing community, some others are durability and service :). Trev

>I own a TSW2 and an Act Labs Force RS. As we speak both units are at Thomas >Enterprises being united. I'm also having my pedals upgraded with separate >axes and a clutch. When I get everything back I'll have my FF wheel and >TSW2 pedals (with clutch) all seen as one controller. David, I think you'll notice a big difference when you get your rig back :) after having seen the inside of the pedals you sent, I'm amazed that anyone would dare to sell such a poor quality thing! No wonder you dont like them. How do you get any degree of fine control from something like this? Trev

I don't know anybody who has tried the FF in GPL, and not *loved* it. I certainly do. I make easily 75% less crashes because of the feedback. I tried a few other games with FF, but I liked none of the FF-effects of them. So give GPL a try, it's a whole different ballgame. It is NOT distracting in GPL, it only helps. I agree however on the somewhat fragile feel of the wheels, I wish TSW would make a solid steel wheel with the Logitech FF device in it, or something like that.

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> My experience with FF is that it's VERY cool at first, and then -- for > me -- it becomes just a gimmicky distraction. I appreciate a > solid-feeling controller -- if the wheel in my hands doesn't feel like > it's as sturdy as the wheel in my car, then it feels like a toy for me, > and this is where EVERY FF wheel I've laid hands on comes up short. The > TSW and TSW2 wheels feel like they could have been pulled from a real > car -- I can lean on them, pound on them in frustration, and even prop > my feet on them without having to worry about how delicate they are. > THIS is my #1 grip against FF wheels at this point, and it may > contribute to my feeling that FF is just a gimmick at this point. > I will say that I haven't yet tried FF with GPL, but based on my > experiences with Viper (EXCELLENT FF), SCGT (mediocre), and NFS > (mediocre driving simulation to begin with), I remain unimpressed with > FF at this point -- enough so that I haven't felt it worth my while to > see what all the fuss is about GPL. I "feel" enough through the visual > interface, and the leather-and-suede wrapped steering wheel on my TSW2 > feels plenty real enough in GPL for me. > I think the bottom line is that anybody who is thinking about buying a > FF wheel should try one out at great length before they buy, lest they > find themselves suffering buyer's remorse early on, then knocking on > TSW's or ECCI's door a year or so down the road when the plastic wears > thin. <G> > Just my $0.02. > -- JB > > I've had a TSW for about 2 years now, and it's a great wheel. > However, Allison's > > site also convinced me to try a LWFF, which I just got a few days ago. > > My impressions? Excellent. Although I haven't gotten time to tweak > the FF > > settings yet, I can already see how they add to the whole experience. > The LWFF > > wheel has a nice feel to it, and I don't find the pedals as bad as > some say > > (although the TSW pedals are vastly superior). > > Unfortunately, I'm running Win95, so right now USB installation for > the LWFF isn't > > an option for me. However, I haven't noticed any framerate hit by > using the LWFF > > and the serial port. > > One caveat if you're running Win95 and want to install this wheel (and > this may > > only have applied to my funky system) -- installation was a PAIN until > I got very > > good help from www.wingmanteam.com. In fact, I just got the FF to > work for the > > first time last night (although when I just booted now, the LWFF > didn't fire up -- > > I'll have to investigate). > > I guess the bottom line of what I'm saying is the LWFF really > impressed me when it > > works. I think an ideal combo would be LWFF wheel on USB, and TSW > pedals thru the > > gameport (if that would even work...). > > Hope this helps. > > > I'm thinking of a steering wheel upgrade and wonder whether it'd be > better to > > > invest in a force feedback wheel (LWFF, preferably) or a sturdy and > smooth, but > > > passive Thomas wheel. I've thought mainly of getting the TSW, but > Allison Hine > > > and many others say force feedback really enhances GPL and gives a > better sense > > > of what's happening. I'll use the wheel mainly with GPL, Papyrus' > NASCAR sims, > > > and a little Viper Racing. Also, I'm planning on either Thomas or > Redline > > > (http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/lakewood/Redline2.htm) pedals so the > ones included > > > with the LWFF won't be a factor. > > > -- > > > ----------------------------------- > > > Morgan Vincent Wooten > > > http://members.tripod.com/~morganv/ > > > ----------------------------------- > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy.

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> My experience with FF is that it's VERY cool at first, and then -- for > me -- it becomes just a gimmicky distraction. I appreciate a > solid-feeling controller -- if the wheel in my hands doesn't feel like > it's as sturdy as the wheel in my car, then it feels like a toy for me, > and this is where EVERY FF wheel I've laid hands on comes up short. The > TSW and TSW2 wheels feel like they could have been pulled from a real > car -- I can lean on them, pound on them in frustration, and even prop > my feet on them without having to worry about how delicate they are. > THIS is my #1 grip against FF wheels at this point, and it may > contribute to my feeling that FF is just a gimmick at this point. > I will say that I haven't yet tried FF with GPL, but based on my > experiences with Viper (EXCELLENT FF), SCGT (mediocre), and NFS > (mediocre driving simulation to begin with), I remain unimpressed with > FF at this point -- enough so that I haven't felt it worth my while to > see what all the fuss is about GPL. I "feel" enough through the visual > interface, and the leather-and-suede wrapped steering wheel on my TSW2 > feels plenty real enough in GPL for me.

If you did take the effort to try FF in all sims why not also have a try with GPL? Can't figure that one out. I can say you're really missing out something!! I've tried several titles with FF and they indeed are not really impressive, GPL however is a total different story: It is absolutely the first title who brought FF to another level. Well I suppose you're already convinced off the contrary so why bother......... Jan.

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> David, I think you'll notice a big difference when you get your rig back :) > after having seen the inside of the pedals you sent, I'm amazed that anyone > would dare to sell such a poor quality thing! No wonder you dont like them. > How do you get any degree of fine control from something like this? > Trev

LOL - I didn't. I never used them - until recently I played around with NFS-High Stakes, and with that game you just keep it floored anyways so it didn't matter. Since GPL FF I've been using my TSW2 pedals in my game port as controller #1 with the Act Labs wheel in the USB as controller #2. I REALLY appreciate what you guys are doing for me. An excellent testimony to your level of customer service :) --David Cook

>My experience with FF is that it's VERY cool at first, and then -- for >me -- it becomes just a gimmicky distraction JB, I agree with your asessment of FF, we have a Logitech unit and when I first tried it I thought "this is kinda cool" well it didnt take long for that to wear thin :( I hate the disconnected feeling you get and the perception of delay between wheel movement and car movement. Another thing that bugs me is the "wheel goes slack" when the front wheels start to slide, anyone who has driven a real car in the snow or on gravel knows that this just doesnt happen. The only way you know when you are pushing is visible, you sure dont have your wheel suddenly become disconnected<g>. I'm sure this'll get the FF devotees fired up but I really dont care, I'm just expressing my personal feelings on the subject. Trev

> Another thing that bugs me is the "wheel goes slack" when the front wheels > start to slide, anyone who has driven a real car in the snow or on gravel > knows that this just doesnt happen. The only way you know when you are > pushing is visible, you sure dont have your wheel suddenly become > disconnected<g>. You should try karting or something where the steering wheel is more directly connected to the tires than in your daily-commute (sp?) car. When the tires lose traction, the steering wheel is much easier to move.

> > My experience with FF is that it's VERY cool at first, and then -- for > > me -- it becomes just a gimmicky distraction. I appreciate a > > solid-feeling controller -- if the wheel in my hands doesn't feel like > > it's as sturdy as the wheel in my car, then it feels like a toy for me, > > and this is where EVERY FF wheel I've laid hands on comes up short. The > > TSW and TSW2 wheels feel like they could have been pulled from a real > > car -- I can lean on them, pound on them in frustration, and even prop

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> > my feet on them without having to worry about how delicate they are. > > THIS is my #1 grip against FF wheels at this point, and it may > > contribute to my feeling that FF is just a gimmick at this point. > > I will say that I haven't yet tried FF with GPL, but based on my > > experiences with Viper (EXCELLENT FF), SCGT (mediocre), and NFS > > (mediocre driving simulation to begin with), I remain unimpressed

with > > FF at this point -- enough so that I haven't felt it worth my while to > > see what all the fuss is about GPL. I "feel" enough through the visual > > interface, and the leather-and-suede wrapped steering wheel on my TSW2 > > feels plenty real enough in GPL for me. > If you did take the effort to try FF in all sims why not also have a >try with GPL? Simple: Because the wheel was hooked up and in use when I had those sims installed. It's been mothballed for quite a while now -- it was on loan to a friend when the GPL 1.2 patch came out, and once I got it back, I was too busy with DTR to mess around with hooking up the wheel on the computer that has GPL installed. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

I'm not positive, but I think Trev has some experience with real Late Models, and if so, then he already knows what "directly connected" and "disconnected" feels like in a high-performance, non-street-going automobile. <G> -- JB > > Another thing that bugs me is the "wheel goes slack" when the front wheels > > start to slide, anyone who has driven a real car in the snow or on gravel > > knows that this just doesnt happen. The only way you know when you are

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> > pushing is visible, you sure dont have your wheel suddenly become > > disconnected<g>. > You should try karting or something where the steering wheel is > more directly connected to the tires than in your daily-commute > (sp?) car. When the tires lose traction, the steering wheel is much > easier to move.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

> I'm not positive, but I think Trev has some experience with real Late > Models, and if so, then he already knows what "directly connected" and > "disconnected" feels like in a high-performance, non-street-going > automobile. <G> Maybe he does, but shouldn't a tire which has lost traction be easier to turn? Seems to me that it would move a lot more freely...

On Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:05:10 -0600, "Trevor Thomas" >Another thing that bugs me is the "wheel goes slack" when the front wheels >start to slide, anyone who has driven a real car in the snow or on gravel >knows that this just doesnt happen. The only way you know when you are >pushing is visible, you sure dont have your wheel suddenly become >disconnected<g>. If you don't feel slack in real car when your front wheels starts to slide, it's probably because you have power steering and front wheel drive. Try a manual steering RWD car and you'll get slack when slip angle gets beyond several degrees. This is especially true when braking. regards, WL

>I'm not positive, but I think Trev has some experience with real Late >Models, and if so, then he already knows what "directly connected" and >"disconnected" feels like in a high-performance, non-street-going >automobile. <G> >-- JB JB, this is what I base my opinion of FF on, its a far cry from reality and if anything a detriment to precision control IMO :). Trev

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>On Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:05:10 -0600, "Trevor Thomas" >If you don't feel slack in real car when your front wheels starts to >slide, it's probably because you have power steering and front wheel >drive. >Try a manual steering RWD car and you'll get slack when slip angle >gets beyond several degrees. This is especially true when braking. >regards, >WL

I'm using my personal experience of driving a real stock car on dirt as my frame of reference. In any case it really doesnt matter as its just an opinion, I'm not trying to convince anyone to give up thier FF equipment just because I dont happen to like it :). Trev

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> >I'm not positive, but I think Trev has some experience with real Late > >Models, and if so, then he already knows what "directly connected" and > >"disconnected" feels like in a high-performance, non-street-going > >automobile. <G> > JB, this is what I base my opinion of FF on, its a far cry from reality and > if anything a detriment to precision control IMO :).

Why don't the two of you come and race me and Alison. Then we'll see whose controls are detrimental :). -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

I have the Logitech Formula Force....Id like to get in on that race with my detrimental controller too!!!! ;) > > >I'm not positive, but I think Trev has some experience with real Late > > >Models, and if so, then he already knows what "directly connected" and > > >"disconnected" feels like in a high-performance, non-street-going > > >automobile. <G> > > JB, this is what I base my opinion of FF on, its a far cry from reality and

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> > if anything a detriment to precision control IMO :). > Why don't the two of you come and race me and > Alison. Then we'll see whose controls are > detrimental :). > -- > Pat Dotson > IMPACT Motorsports > http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

On Fri, 4 Feb 2000 17:17:47 -0600, "Trevor Thomas" >I'm using my personal experience of driving a real stock car on dirt as my >frame of reference. In any case it really doesnt matter as its just an >opinion, I'm not trying to convince anyone to give up thier FF equipment >just because I dont happen to like it :). Based on a lot of personal experience with competition karting and SCCA sports car racing, I've got to say that I didn't consider the sensations I received through a Logitech wheel any sort of close approximation to actually driving a race car (closer to the gokart, actually), but I can observe that it does add to the game as without FF you are physically quite isolated from the experience of driving the car and must rely exclusively on visual perception and some limited sounds. With FF, you get some more input with which you can effect better control of the car (at least I'm grateful for the additional tactile input). Until they come up with $200.00 sim***pits with 3-axis motion, the FF units are a terrific bang for the buck if you're serious about your sim racing. Just my two cents... Regards, Brett C. Cammack That's Racing! Motorsports Pompano Beach, FL

Uh huh... Um... I think you start sliding and lose control of the fronts... That seems normal to me. None of which surprise me at all. Duh. I suspect the ECCI fellas have the same "personal feelings on the subject". -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

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> I will say that I haven't yet tried FF with GPL, but based on my > experiences with Viper (EXCELLENT FF), SCGT (mediocre), and NFS > (mediocre driving simulation to begin with), I remain unimpressed with > FF at this point -- enough so that I haven't felt it worth my while to > see what all the fuss is about GPL. I "feel" enough through the visual > interface, and the leather-and-suede wrapped steering wheel on my TSW2 > feels plenty real enough in GPL for me. > > I think the bottom line is that anybody who is thinking about buying a > FF wheel should try one out at great length before they buy, lest they > find themselves suffering buyer's remorse early on, then knocking on > TSW's or ECCI's door a year or so down the road when the plastic wears > thin. <G> > > Just my $0.02. > > -- JB

John, I felt the same way as you did. I even ordered a TSW2. Then the patch came out for gpl with FF. I purchased a MSFF just to check it out,since it had a 30 days to return it. Well, the FF in gpl is like no other sim. You can feel the car getting light, loading up, and what a 4 wheel drift really feels like. These factors not only make the sim more realistic, but it helps you to drive with more control. The bottom line was that I still have the MSFF wheel and canceled my TSW2. I haven't had second thoughts yet. I even hooked up my old T2, and couldn't even drive my Ferrari with any kind of control. And yes, I understand quite well that the TSW wheels are most likely a life time investment while the MSFF wheel isn't. In fact, I only expect it to last 2 years or so until the next generation of FF wheels hits the market. Afterall, are you using the same motherboard,cpu,and graphics card that you had 2 years ago? I really don't think so. Joel Willstein [email hidden]

Trevor Thomas <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:87d17j$d7g$[email hidden]... snip

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> Another thing that bugs me is the "wheel goes slack" when the front wheels > start to slide, anyone who has driven a real car in the snow or on gravel > knows that this just doesnt happen. The only way you know when you are > pushing is visible, you sure dont have your wheel suddenly become > disconnected<g>. > > I'm sure this'll get the FF devotees fired up but I really dont care, I'm > just expressing my personal feelings on the subject. > > Trev

Trev, You're sure intitled to your opinion, but I don't agree with it. GPL without FF just isn't worth the effort or time for me. And that's my opinion. Joel Willstein [email hidden]

Pat Dotson <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Trevor Thomas wrote: > > [email hidden] wrote in message <87dt9t$kpu$[email hidden]>... > > >I'm not positive, but I think Trev has some experience with real Late > > >Models, and if so, then he already knows what "directly connected" and > > >"disconnected" feels like in a high-performance, non-street-going > > >automobile. <G> > > > > JB, this is what I base my opinion of FF on, its a far cry from reality

and

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> > if anything a detriment to precision control IMO :). > > > Why don't the two of you come and race me and > Alison. Then we'll see whose controls are > detrimental :). > > -- > Pat Dotson > IMPACT Motorsports > http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

Pat, I would really like to join in on this one. Afterall, you would need a MSFF wheel user. Joel Willstein [email hidden]

OK Trevor, how about your plans to implement (good) FF. The recent discussion with another wheel-supplier left the impression, that they overslept. Now they claim that FF isn't ripe for a good implementation, IMO BS. See you Jens On Fri, 4 Feb 2000 07:41:56 -0600, "Trevor Thomas" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >[email hidden] wrote in message <87dt9t$kpu$[email hidden]>... >>I'm not positive, but I think Trev has some experience with real Late >>Models, and if so, then he already knows what "directly connected" and >>"disconnected" feels like in a high-performance, non-street-going >>automobile. <G> >> >>-- JB > > >JB, this is what I base my opinion of FF on, its a far cry from reality and >if anything a detriment to precision control IMO :). > >Trev >

--------------------------------------------- [email hidden] Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address Visit my webpage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ for some serious stuff concerning: Radio controlled airplanes Racing simulation, esp. GPL Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor

OK Trevor, how about your plans to implement (good) FF. The recent discussion with another wheel-supplier left the impression, that they overslept. Now they claim that FF isn't ripe for a good implementation, IMO BS. See you Jens

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>>I'm not positive, but I think Trev has some experience with real Late >>Models, and if so, then he already knows what "directly connected" and >>"disconnected" feels like in a high-performance, non-street-going >>automobile. <G> >>-- JB >JB, this is what I base my opinion of FF on, its a far cry from reality and >if anything a detriment to precision control IMO :). >Trev

--------------------------------------------- Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address Visit my webpage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ for some serious stuff concerning: Radio controlled airplanes Racing simulation, esp. GPL Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor

I a agree with Pierre. I have done some gokart racing myself, and I used to hate the long fast corners because they would beat you up. And when the kart was pushing the steering was much lighter. ....think about it... when the front wheels have grip, they "want" to point straight if you're turning. Once the wheels loose grip and start sliding (iow, you loose static friction), the force of the wheels "wanting" to point straight out is much lower. Dave. ------------------------------------- Team Cooper Cup online racing series http://www.geocities.com/teamcoopercup [email hidden] [email hidden] (Pierre Robitaille) wrote in <[email hidden]>:

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>[email hidden] wrote: >> >> I'm not positive, but I think Trev has some experience with real Late >> Models, and if so, then he already knows what "directly connected" and >> "disconnected" feels like in a high-performance, non-street-going >> automobile. <G> > >Maybe he does, but shouldn't a tire which has lost traction be >easier to turn? Seems to me that it would move a lot more >freely... >