GPL: How to brake without split asix controler?

Dear All, In an effort to improve my laptimes, I've been examining where I'm slower compared to you hotshots out there. No surprises - I'm earlier on the brakes and later on the throttle. I'm having some success at getting earlier on the throttle. The breakthrough came when I realised that the throttle is an analogue device, and I don't have to go from throttle feathered to throttle full open in a fraction of a nanosecond. Duh. The braking is proving less easy to improve. I'm using a thrustmaster sprint wheel which cannot have the pedals in spit axis mode, so I cannot follow any of the advice for trail braking. At present braking technique is to lose all the speed I need in a straight line, then turn into the corner, then add power gradually as I pass the apex. Looking at replays, people seem to be able to lose speed consistently all the way to the apex. Whenever I try this, I always lose the rear end of the car in uncontrollable oversteer. Any hints? If it helps, I'm concentrating (still! - after having the full game over a year) on the same tracks as were in the demo. I've got down to 1:29.7 in the Lotus at Monza and a best of 1:07.5 in the Ferrari at the Glen. Thanks for any help! Ian Ian Riches Bedford, UK ------

Just a thought, could you not get split axis by using the paddle for braking and the accell pedal? Might be hard to train the body to do so. . . SLG

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>Dear All, >In an effort to improve my laptimes, I've been examining where I'm slower >compared to you hotshots out there. No surprises - I'm earlier on the >brakes and later on the throttle. >I'm having some success at getting earlier on the throttle. The >breakthrough came when I realised that the throttle is an analogue device, >and I don't have to go from throttle feathered to throttle full open in a >fraction of a nanosecond. Duh. >The braking is proving less easy to improve. I'm using a thrustmaster >sprint wheel which cannot have the pedals in spit axis mode, so I cannot >follow any of the advice for trail braking. At present braking technique is >to lose all the speed I need in a straight line, then turn into the corner, >then add power gradually as I pass the apex. Looking at replays, people >seem to be able to lose speed consistently all the way to the apex. >Whenever I try this, I always lose the rear end of the car in uncontrollable >oversteer. >Any hints? >If it helps, I'm concentrating (still! - after having the full game over a >year) on the same tracks as were in the demo. I've got down to 1:29.7 in >the Lotus at Monza and a best of 1:07.5 in the Ferrari at the Glen. >Thanks for any help! >Ian >Ian Riches >Bedford, UK >------

(All spelling errors are intentional and are there to show new and improved ways of spelling old words. Grammatical errors are due to too many English classes/teachers)

Not really an answer to your question but : 1st try not to switch cars too often.. 2nd read few things here : http://www.uio.no/~asgeirn/Racing/frames.html Cheers, -- Oli BeoRocket Racing http://www.beorocket.co.yu/

Steve, I have thought of that and tried it. Just can't get used to it - and it ruins all sense of immersion for me. I also find it had to steer accurately (and GPL *needs* to be steered accurately) when operating the paddles. Ian Ian Riches Bedford, UK ------

Here's the best tip you'll ever get: Buy a decent wheel with some split-axis pedals :) Andre

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>Any hints? >If it helps, I'm concentrating (still! - after having the full game over a >year) on the same tracks as were in the demo. I've got down to 1:29.7 in >the Lotus at Monza and a best of 1:07.5 in the Ferrari at the Glen. >Thanks for any help! >Ian >Ian Riches >Bedford, UK >------

you are refering to trailbraking here. this is a technique which needs quite some skill and a lot of practice to be done effectively. braking goes like this: press the brake pedal at the braking point until you hear a bit squeeling (a bit!!). make sure your wheels don't lock up! if the squeeling gets too loud or your wheels lock up: release the brake until the squeeling disappears and adjust the braking pressure this way. when you reach the turn-in point, release the brakes a abit (not completely), turn in and while you go for the apex, release the brakes more and more while turning more. shortly before the apex start applying throttle and aim for an soft, little squeeling exit. monza is good to practice trailbraking, especially the 1st lesmo and the parabolica. Lio

Thanks, Oli, that's really helpful. Ian Ian Riches Bedford, UK ------

> Here's the best tip you'll ever get: Buy a decent wheel with some > split-axis pedals :) i have the same wheel mentioned earlier (TM Formula Sprint over here in the UK). it was a fairly simple operation to hack the internal wiring about a bit with a soldering iron to give me a three axis wheel: steering, brakes, and the loud pedal. so, you now know what to do when your guarantee runs out! martin.

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> > Here's the best tip you'll ever get: Buy a decent wheel with some > > split-axis pedals :) > i have the same wheel mentioned earlier (TM Formula Sprint over here > in the UK). it was a fairly simple operation to hack the internal > wiring about a bit with a soldering iron to give me a three axis > wheel: steering, brakes, and the loud pedal. > so, you now know what to do when your guarantee runs out! > martin.

Martin, Care to share how you did this? I haven't held a soldering iron since my eletronics 'O'-level, but I can still probably work out which end is which. I seem to remember one end gets very hot - that soon teaches me :-) Thanks, Ian Ian Riches Bedford, UK ------

I'm certain this will be declared heresy. IMO you CAN effectively trail brake with single axis. Just keep the brake applied as you turn in. Ease off gradually but not full off. It takes a bit of practice to get right but works a treat. IMO the split axis (axes?) only adds the ability to modulate the throttle while the brake is applied to balance the car through the corner. Probably also makes getting back on power faster.

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> > > Here's the best tip you'll ever get: Buy a decent wheel with some > > > split-axis pedals :) > > i have the same wheel mentioned earlier (TM Formula Sprint over here > > in the UK). it was a fairly simple operation to hack the internal > > wiring about a bit with a soldering iron to give me a three axis > > wheel: steering, brakes, and the loud pedal. > > so, you now know what to do when your guarantee runs out! > > martin. > Martin, > Care to share how you did this? I haven't held a soldering iron

since my > eletronics 'O'-level, but I can still probably work out which end is which.

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> I seem to remember one end gets very hot - that soon teaches me :-) > Thanks, > Ian > Ian Riches > Bedford, UK > ------

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

> The braking is proving less easy to improve. I'm using a thrustmaster > sprint wheel which cannot have the pedals in spit axis mode, so I cannot > follow any of the advice for trail braking. One quick correction - you can trail brake using only your right foot. Trail braking just refers to turning in with the brakes still pressed and then gradually coming off them in the turn. Now doing this without swapping ends is another story. Dave Ewing -- ***************************************************** David A. Ewing *****************************************************

You don't have to have a split axis to trail brake. Trail braking is just braking as you turn without losing the rear end. Being able to feather the throttle as you do it improves the transition from brake to throttle but is not essential to being able to trail brake. On Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:14:17 -0000, "Ian Riches"

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>> Just a thought, could you not get split axis by using the paddle for >> braking and the accell pedal? Might be hard to train the body to do >> so. . . >> SLG >Steve, >I have thought of that and tried it. Just can't get used to it - and it >ruins all sense of immersion for me. I also find it had to steer accurately >(and GPL *needs* to be steered accurately) when operating the paddles. >Ian >Ian Riches >Bedford, UK >------

To email me remove the "u"s

> I'm certain this will be declared heresy. IMO you CAN effectively > trail brake with single axis. Just keep the brake applied as you turn > in. Ease off gradually but not full off. Not heretical at all. In fact, I believe this is how Jim Clark did it. Dave Ewing -- ***************************************************** David A. Ewing *****************************************************

GTX_SlotCar wrote: > Actually, trail braking doesn't mean you actually have to use the brake. Huh? -- ***************************************************** David A. Ewing Xilinx Boulder [email hidden] *****************************************************

David Ewing <[email hidden]> wrote: : [email hidden] wrote: :> I'm certain this will be declared heresy. IMO you CAN effectively :> trail brake with single axis. Just keep the brake applied as you turn :> in. Ease off gradually but not full off. : Not heretical at all. In fact, I believe this is how Jim Clark did it. Almost certainly true because Clark was so amazingly light on brakes. Apparently Hill had to have his brakes replaces after every race, Clark had them replaced half way through the season because the team were embarrased he was still using the same ones. -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

Actually, trail braking doesn't mean you actually have to use the brake. Slot

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> > I'm certain this will be declared heresy. IMO you CAN effectively > > trail brake with single axis. Just keep the brake applied as you turn > > in. Ease off gradually but not full off. > Not heretical at all. In fact, I believe this is how Jim Clark did it. > Dave Ewing > -- > ***************************************************** > David A. Ewing > *****************************************************

> Actually, trail braking doesn't mean you actually have to use the brake. what do you use instead? motor braking? I don't recommend motor braking - it's just like adjusting your brake-bias a lot to the rear - you just don't want this as the cars understeers if you are lucky and spins when it loose grip at the backend if you're not ... Lio

I hate it when I can't find old URLs. There was an excellent series on this by a (real) GT3 driver, including quizes about entering compound corners etc. based on Viper Racing tracks. One thing he warned about was abusing trail braking. There is a time to use it, but not often. I remember this well because I used it extensively in MTM2. He did a good job explaining trail braking, and yes, it doesn't actually mean you have to apply brakes. One quote from him that I'll never forget, "the fastest way to go slow is to brake too late". You're going into the corner kinda hot. The idea is to aid in setting your car's angle for a faster exit or the next corner. Slot

With single axis, applying brake when the gas is applied is the same as letting your foot off the gas. You are simply turning down the potentiometer. You need split axis to apply both forces at the same time. You may feel you have better control by applying the brake and gas at the same time, but its no different as far as the signal being sent to the game. As I said, trail braking doesn't mean you actually have to apply the brake, and in fact, you are not. But you are still trail braking. (trail decelerating) With split axis you can apply both forces at the same time. I'm sure you know the advantages to that. Slot

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> > Actually, trail braking doesn't mean you actually have to use the brake. > Huh? > -- > ***************************************************** > David A. Ewing > *****************************************************

It will only be an advantage if you trailbrake or drive with the left foot on the brake pedal...

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>With single axis, applying brake when the gas is applied is the same as >letting your foot off the gas. You are simply turning down the >potentiometer. You need split axis to apply both forces at the same time. >You may feel you have better control by applying the brake and gas at the >same time, but its no different as far as the signal being sent to the game. >As I said, trail braking doesn't mean you actually have to apply the brake, >and in fact, you are not. But you are still trail braking. (trail >decelerating) >With split axis you can apply both forces at the same time. I'm sure you >know the advantages to that. >Slot >> > Actually, trail braking doesn't mean you actually have to use the brake. >> Huh? >> -- >> ***************************************************** >> David A. Ewing >> *****************************************************

this technique is ok for rally cars, but you have to be very skilled to use it with these old grand prix cars. I tried this late braking and sliding technique at the hugenholtzbocht/zandvoort in GPL lately and when it works, you really gain half a second, but it only works right every some laps ... Lio

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>> Here's the best tip you'll ever get: Buy a decent wheel with some >> split-axis pedals :) >i have the same wheel mentioned earlier (TM Formula Sprint over here >in the UK). it was a fairly simple operation to hack the internal >wiring about a bit with a soldering iron to give me a three axis >wheel: steering, brakes, and the loud pedal. >so, you now know what to do when your guarantee runs out!

Huh? I thought Thrustmaster Formula Sprint had separate axis already. Check it out by defining your own settings in Control Panel for three-axis joystick; brake and throttle pedals work on separate axis. It's the Thrustmaster's driver software that combines them on y-axis. (I may be wrong; it's been some time I used my TM, but I think I got separate axis on both Sprint w/CH Pedals and with Sprint pedals). -- /sami nurmela