Revelations and heresy: GPL and Ford Racing

Okay, let's start off with the revelation -- with all the various talk about the longevity and overall goodness of GPL in recent threads, combined with the fact that I've been away from GPL for the past few months except for the occasional lap at the Glen or Mexico just to check out various graphics tweaks on my system, I decided to break out the old girl and do some laps. The amazing thing I noticed is how drastically different the game feels with the 1.2 patch. I installed the patch about the time I got heavily involved with DTR, and since FF doesn't really interest me, I quickly drifted away from GPL altogether. Today, though, I spent a significant amount of time with GPL, and the difference is amazing -- in short order, I was within a second of my own personal best at Mexico, but the ease with which I got there was amazing. Either DTR has made me a better driver, or the 1.2 patch has made GPL much more forgiving and driveable. I'm not using FF, BTW -- just my trusty old TSW2 *without* split-axis pedals. Mexico is a very demanding track, and, strangely enough for a guy who loves ovals so much, it's pretty much my favorite (that and the Glen would be my top two). Still, I found myself getting RIGHT into the game with no problems, and it felt GOOD -- far better than I remembered, in fact. After a afternoon's worth of wheel time in GPL, I have to say that if it had been released with whatever tweaks are contained in the 1.2 patch, it would have gone over MUCH better, IMO. I still think the learning curve is a bit high, and Papy could/should have made some concessions to make the game more accessible to the novice players (a difficulty slider like Ratbag included in DTR would have made a world of difference in the final sales figures, I would wager), but all in all, DTR truly IS the pinnacle of automotive simulations. That said, I really don't think that the GPL engine could be as successfully applied elsewhere. I have read posts where folks have complained about how "dead" N3 feels in comparison to GPL, and I fear that if a NASCAR sim (or even a CART, IRL, or modern F1 sim) was made using the GPL engine, it still wouldn't have that magic "feel" that we all love in GPL. The magic, I believe, comes from the responsiveness, nimbleness, and lightness of the cars being modeled, plus the fact that there are NO aero aids involved. The cars involved in the 1967 GP season are a far cry from anything before or since -- there's a purity involved with GPL that just won't be equalled for quite some time, I'm afraid. If N4 uses the GPL engine, a lot of people may be fairly disappionted, but it won't be the game engine's fault. I've mentioned DTR, and I really feel that the physics in DTR are pretty darn good -- maybe second only to GPL (and maybe Viper Racing). The difference is that the Stocks, Pro Stocks, and Late Model cars being modeled in DTR are VERY different automotive beasts than the 1967 GP cars being modeled in GPL. In fact, if the GPL engine was used as the basis for a modern Late Model dirt racing simulation, I think we would all be surprised at how much it would feel like the current incarnation of DTR. Maybe with N4 we'll have a chance to see if GPL's magic feel can be translated into modern-day racing machines, but I really believe that GPL's magic is unique. If you're into flight sims, just imagine if the Falcon 4.0 physics model was used as the basis for a B-2 bomber simulation -- the bottom line is that even if the end result was inherently good, it just wouldn't be the same, and it just might lack some of the "magic," if you will, that makes Falcon 4.0 the definitive combat simulator that it is. Okay, enough revelations. I'm beginning to even bore myself, so, now it's time for the heresy . . . After playing around with GPL for a while, I decided to fire up the Ford Racing demo that I'd installed a couple of nights ago. I played around with it a little when I installed it, and while I did find it to be pretty disappointing, it did manage to feel a bit more satisfying that the SoS demo, so I figured it warranted a second look just to determine how BAD it truly is. The heresy lies in the fact that, despite the unanimous agreement here from others that it truly does stink, I think it truly may have some potential. True, the sounds suck, but if you look through the game folders you'll find that they use a single WAV file for the engine sound, which would be easy enough to change. Now, granted, you would still be stuck with a single engine sound for all the cars, but a patch could surely be developed that would point to different sound files for each different car in the game. The way I see it, this "single engine note" problem is on a par with SCGT's "single dashboard for all cars" faux pas. The dashboard issue brings up the second major failing, IMO -- the lack of an in-car view is a MAJOR problem, but, still, it seems like this could be taken care of in a patch. All that's needed is a new camera angle (easy to do), dash overlay graphics (equally simple), and you're driving from the right view, which would be a major improvement. Of course, while the folks at Empire are *** the folks at Elite to develop a decent patch, they might want ask for a joystick tuning feature, too. Viper Racing still has the best joystick tuning capability bar none, but even something as simplistic as what's included in SCGT would be a great improvement. This is the one area where Ford Racing really falls down, IMO (besides sound and driving view, that is) -- the steering has too large of a dead-zone, and it feels too non-linear off-center for me. Then again, a lot of that could be the driving view -- I've NEVER been able to master the chase view, so it could just be me. Now, all of this may sound like I'm out in left field, but the REAL heresy is yet to come -- based on my wheel time in Ford Racing after playing around with GPL, I have to say that even though I really don't like the steering response, the engine sounds, or the driving view, I do think that Ford Racing seems to have a much better physics model than NFS3 or NFS/HS, and it may be as good or better than SCGT, and (here's the REAL stretch), it just MIGHT be nearly as good as Viper Racing (and therein lies the heresy). Even as it is, I really think I like the Ford Racing demo better than I did the entire Andretti Racing game, but, then again, that's not really saying much, is it? The reason I think there may be hope for Ford Racing is this: Imagine if the Viper Racing physics engine was used to model a relatively- benign 135-hp Dodge Neon with front wheel drive instead of a fire- breathing Viper, then imagine yourself in chase view mode with the game's default controller tuning values, and I think that the end result might feel quite a bit like the Puma in the Ford Racing demo. Sure, there's no damage in the game, but the car seems to handle quite a bit more realisticly than the cars in NFS, and the physics model seems to be sound based on the fact that I've seen the car tip on 2 wheels in a fairly realistic manner after clipping a wall or another car under the right circumstances. In this regard, the Ford Racing physics model seems like it might be a little better than the GT3 physics model in SCGT, which seems to have either too much traction or too much gravity to allow for the type of "tippy"-ness that would be found in a relatively-modest car like a Ford Puma. So, can the "Friends of Elite" were to come out with a patch that would add individual sounds for each of the vehicles modeled, plus an in-car view with proper dashboard displays for each vehicle, AND a controller calibration/tuning utility, THEN I think the Ford Racing game might be able to rank up there with the likes of SCGT, Viper Racing, and Dirt Track Racing, rather than reside in the Hall of Shame with titles like Spirit Of Speed. So, is anybody from Ford, Elite, or Empire listening? If so, give us some glimmer of hope -- and give us a patch to cure some of these ills. What's needed isn't earth-shattering or show-stopping -- it WOULD take a small miracle (like, say, a complete re-write of the code) to make SoS halfway decent, but all that Ford Racing needs is a few tweaks, I daresay, in order to put it in very good company indeed. Okay, that's enough for now -- anybody else have any thoughts on this? -- JB Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

[SNIP] OMIGOSH -- MAJOR typo! I *meant* to say "GPL truly IS the pinnacle of automotive simulations." DTR may be runner-up (tied with Viper Racing), but I DO think that GPL has the edge. Not by a huge margin, mind you, and if Ratbag continues to improve upon the DTR physics engine, they could be true contenders, but as it stands, GPL *is* still top dog, even in my book. -- JB Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

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>[SNIP] >> I still think the learning curve is a bit high, and Papy could/should >> have made some concessions to make the game more accessible to the >> novice players (a difficulty slider like Ratbag included in DTR would >> have made a world of difference in the final sales figures, I would >> wager), but all in all, DTR truly IS the pinnacle of automotive >> simulations. >OMIGOSH -- MAJOR typo! I *meant* to say "GPL truly IS the pinnacle of >automotive simulations." DTR may be runner-up (tied with Viper >Racing), but I DO think that GPL has the edge. Not by a huge margin, >mind you, and if Ratbag continues to improve upon the DTR physics >engine, they could be true contenders, but as it stands, GPL *is* still >top dog, even in my book.

The Ayatollah has lifted the fatwa on you life, John. :-) Martin Long Live Nigel Mansell!

In article <86e8m1$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] wrote:

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> Okay, let's start off with the revelation -- with all the various talk > about the longevity and overall goodness of GPL in recent threads, > combined with the fact that I've been away from GPL for the past few > months except for the occasional lap at the Glen or Mexico just to > check out various graphics tweaks on my system, I decided to break out > the old girl and do some laps. The amazing thing I noticed is how > drastically different the game feels with the 1.2 patch. I installed > the patch about the time I got heavily involved with DTR, and since FF > doesn't really interest me, I quickly drifted away from GPL > altogether. > Today, though, I spent a significant amount of time with GPL, and the > difference is amazing -- in short order, I was within a second of my > own personal best at Mexico, but the ease with which I got there was > amazing. Either DTR has made me a better driver, or the 1.2 patch has > made GPL much more forgiving and driveable. I'm not using FF, BTW -- > just my trusty old TSW2 *without* split-axis pedals. Mexico is a very > demanding track, and, strangely enough for a guy who loves ovals so > much, it's pretty much my favorite (that and the Glen would be my top > two). Still, I found myself getting RIGHT into the game with no > problems, and it felt GOOD -- far better than I remembered, in fact. > After a afternoon's worth of wheel time in GPL, I have to say that if > it had been released with whatever tweaks are contained in the 1.2 > patch, it would have gone over MUCH better, IMO. > I still think the learning curve is a bit high, and Papy could/should > have made some concessions to make the game more accessible to the > novice players (a difficulty slider like Ratbag included in DTR would > have made a world of difference in the final sales figures, I would > wager), but all in all, DTR truly IS the pinnacle of automotive > simulations. > That said, I really don't think that the GPL engine could be as > successfully applied elsewhere. I have read posts where folks have > complained about how "dead" N3 feels in comparison to GPL, and I fear > that if a NASCAR sim (or even a CART, IRL, or modern F1 sim) was made > using the GPL engine, it still wouldn't have that magic "feel" that we > all love in GPL. The magic, I believe, comes from the responsiveness, > nimbleness, and lightness of the cars being modeled, plus the fact

that

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> there are NO aero aids involved. The cars involved in the 1967 GP > season are a far cry from anything before or since -- there's a purity > involved with GPL that just won't be equalled for quite some time, I'm > afraid. If N4 uses the GPL engine, a lot of people may be fairly > disappionted, but it won't be the game engine's fault. > I've mentioned DTR, and I really feel that the physics in DTR are > pretty darn good -- maybe second only to GPL (and maybe Viper Racing). > The difference is that the Stocks, Pro Stocks, and Late Model cars > being modeled in DTR are VERY different automotive beasts than the

1967

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> GP cars being modeled in GPL. In fact, if the GPL engine was used as > the basis for a modern Late Model dirt racing simulation, I think we > would all be surprised at how much it would feel like the current > incarnation of DTR. > Maybe with N4 we'll have a chance to see if GPL's magic feel can be > translated into modern-day racing machines, but I really believe that > GPL's magic is unique. If you're into flight sims, just imagine if

the

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> Falcon 4.0 physics model was used as the basis for a B-2 bomber > simulation -- the bottom line is that even if the end result was > inherently good, it just wouldn't be the same, and it just might lack > some of the "magic," if you will, that makes Falcon 4.0 the definitive > combat simulator that it is. > Okay, enough revelations. I'm beginning to even bore myself, so, now > it's time for the heresy . . . > After playing around with GPL for a while, I decided to fire up the > Ford Racing demo that I'd installed a couple of nights ago. I played > around with it a little when I installed it, and while I did find it

to

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> be pretty disappointing, it did manage to feel a bit more satisfying > that the SoS demo, so I figured it warranted a second look just to > determine how BAD it truly is. > The heresy lies in the fact that, despite the unanimous agreement here > from others that it truly does stink, I think it truly may have some > potential. True, the sounds suck, but if you look through the game > folders you'll find that they use a single WAV file for the engine > sound, which would be easy enough to change. Now, granted, you would > still be stuck with a single engine sound for all the cars, but a

patch > could surely be developed that would point to different sound files for > each different car in the game. The way I see it, this "single engine > note" problem is on a par with SCGT's "single dashboard for all cars" > faux pas. > The dashboard issue brings up the second major failing, IMO -- the lack > of an in-car view is a MAJOR problem, but, still, it seems like this > could be taken care of in a patch. All that's needed is a new camera > angle (easy to do), dash overlay graphics (equally simple), and you're > driving from the right view, which would be a major improvement. > Of course, while the folks at Empire are flogging the folks at Elite to

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> develop a decent patch, they might want ask for a joystick tuning > feature, too. Viper Racing still has the best joystick tuning > capability bar none, but even something as simplistic as what's > included in SCGT would be a great improvement. This is the one area > where Ford Racing really falls down, IMO (besides sound and driving > view, that is) -- the steering has too large of a dead-zone, and it > feels too non-linear off-center for me. Then again, a lot of that > could be the driving view -- I've NEVER been able to master the chase > view, so it could just be me. > Now, all of this may sound like I'm out in left field, but the REAL > heresy is yet to come -- based on my wheel time in Ford Racing after > playing around with GPL, I have to say that even though I really don't > like the steering response, the engine sounds, or the driving view, I > do think that Ford Racing seems to have a much better physics model > than NFS3 or NFS/HS, and it may be as good or better than SCGT, and > (here's the REAL stretch), it just MIGHT be nearly as good as Viper > Racing (and therein lies the heresy). Even as it is, I really think I > like the Ford Racing demo better than I did the entire Andretti Racing > game, but, then again, that's not really saying much, is it? > The reason I think there may be hope for Ford Racing is this: Imagine > if the Viper Racing physics engine was used to model a relatively- > benign 135-hp Dodge Neon with front wheel drive instead of a fire- > breathing Viper, then imagine yourself in chase view mode with the > game's default controller tuning values, and I think that the end > result might feel quite a bit like the Puma in the Ford Racing demo. > Sure, there's no damage in the game, but the car seems to handle quite > a bit more realisticly than the cars in NFS, and the physics model > seems to be sound based on the fact that I've seen the car tip on 2 > wheels in a fairly realistic manner after clipping a wall or another > car under the right circumstances. In this regard, the Ford Racing > physics model seems like it might be a little better than the GT3 > physics model in SCGT, which seems to have either too much traction or > too much gravity to allow for the type of "tippy"-ness that would be > found in a relatively-modest car like a Ford Puma. > So, can the "Friends of Elite" were to come out with a patch that

would

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> add individual sounds for each of the vehicles modeled, plus an in-car > view with proper dashboard displays for each vehicle, AND a controller > calibration/tuning utility, THEN I think the Ford Racing game might be > able to rank up there with the likes of SCGT, Viper Racing, and Dirt > Track Racing, rather than reside in the Hall of Shame with titles like > Spirit Of Speed. > So, is anybody from Ford, Elite, or Empire listening? If so, give us > some glimmer of hope -- and give us a patch to cure some of these > ills. What's needed isn't earth-shattering or show-stopping -- it > WOULD take a small miracle (like, say, a complete re-write of the

code)

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> to make SoS halfway decent, but all that Ford Racing needs is a few > tweaks, I daresay, in order to put it in very good company indeed. > Okay, that's enough for now -- anybody else have any thoughts on this? > -- JB > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

>IMO the physics model of DTR is highly overestimated! >Racing those banked tracks in DTR is much easier than in NASCAR3 Uhh.. I'll have some of what you're smoking. Try turning DTR's physics to 100% and report your findings. LOL -- * rrev at mindspring dot com *

IMO the physics model of DTR is highly overestimated! Racing those banked tracks in DTR is much easier than in NASCAR3 and the AI just sucks there. Not to mention the poor grafical implementation of the car movements... Or does this mean that Late Models are easier to drive than NASCARs ;-? CU Zolli

: The heresy lies in the fact that, despite the unanimous agreement here : from others that it truly does stink, I think it truly may have some : potential. True, the sounds suck, but if you look through the game In the same spirit, the writers at PC Games in Germany tried to find some sort of fun in this little stinker (they gave it about 60% in the review). They showed a humourous series of screenshots showing them doing an "elk test" in a Ford Ka. Right-left-whoa Nelly, over we go! for those in North America who don't know, the whole "elk test" fuss came up about two years ago when a Swedish magazine found that Mercedes' new baby, the egg-shaped A-class small car, would tip over if put through a mid-speed, yet very ***, lane change. this was the so called "elk test", as it seems the Swedes spend a lot of time avoiding elks. (Fomr my experience in Northern Ontario, I would say Transport Canada needs to introduce a moose test). After that magazine's report, the rest of the European automotive press went on a feeding frenzy, tipping over every small car they could find. Stephen

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> [SNIP] >> I still think the learning curve is a bit high, and Papy could/should >> have made some concessions to make the game more accessible to the >> novice players (a difficulty slider like Ratbag included in DTR would >> have made a world of difference in the final sales figures, I would >> wager), but all in all, DTR truly IS the pinnacle of automotive >> simulations. > OMIGOSH -- MAJOR typo! I *meant* to say "GPL truly IS the pinnacle of > automotive simulations." DTR may be runner-up (tied with Viper > Racing), but I DO think that GPL has the edge. Not by a huge margin, > mind you, and if Ratbag continues to improve upon the DTR physics > engine, they could be true contenders, but as it stands, GPL *is* still > top dog, even in my book. > -- JB > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy.

GPL let most people see the truth (including me). That they're good drivers but they're not Jim Clark. Most of the people like to beat the best and then they think they're good. For them it's good to have such a wheelchair (slider). But most of the people don't like to confronted with the truth everyday. I've accepted the truth to duel with the best drivers in that era. Jo Bonnier, Cris Irwin and so on. Greetings Olaf

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> On Mon, 24 Jan 2000 02:53:49 +0100, "Zolli" > >IMO the physics model of DTR is highly overestimated! > >Racing those banked tracks in DTR is much easier than in NASCAR3 > Uhh.. I'll have some of what you're smoking. Try turning DTR's > physics to 100% and report your findings. > LOL > -- > * rrev at mindspring dot com *

I hate to defend Zolli's narrow-minded view, Ed, but he did say "those banked track in DTR" -- if he's referring to Oldero, for example, I'd kind of have to agree that it can be somewhat simple to go fast there. Still, I think that Oldero is still more difficult to go fast on than Talladega is in NASCAR, for example, so I can't say that I agree with him. Then there are the REALLY tough tracks like Stuart . . . <G> DTR rocks, and falls just a tiny bit short of ruling. Still, it commands more of my attention than anything else right now. -- JB Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

The little A-class Mercedes is also known by the endearing nickname "V?lt-klasse" in Sweden. And that's only funny to our Swedish readers. A tip-top car, otherwise... /petern

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>: The heresy lies in the fact that, despite the unanimous agreement here >: from others that it truly does stink, I think it truly may have some >: potential. True, the sounds suck, but if you look through the game >In the same spirit, the writers at PC Games in Germany tried to find some >sort of fun in this little stinker (they gave it about 60% in the >review). They showed a humourous series of screenshots showing them doing >an "elk test" in a Ford Ka. Right-left-whoa Nelly, over we go! >for those in North America who don't know, the whole "elk test" fuss came >up about two years ago when a Swedish magazine found that Mercedes' new >baby, the egg-shaped A-class small car, would tip over if put through a >mid-speed, yet very ***, lane change. this was the so called "elk >test", as it seems the Swedes spend a lot of time avoiding elks. (Fomr my >experience in Northern Ontario, I would say Transport Canada needs to >introduce a moose test). After that magazine's report, the rest of the >European automotive press went on a feeding frenzy, tipping over every >small car they could find. >Stephen

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>> On Mon, 24 Jan 2000 02:53:49 +0100, "Zolli" >> >IMO the physics model of DTR is highly overestimated! >> >Racing those banked tracks in DTR is much easier than in NASCAR3 >> Uhh.. I'll have some of what you're smoking. Try turning DTR's >> physics to 100% and report your findings. >> LOL >I hate to defend Zolli's narrow-minded view, Ed, but he did say "those >banked track in DTR" -- if he's referring to Oldero, for example, I'd >kind of have to agree that it can be somewhat simple to go fast there. >Still, I think that Oldero is still more difficult to go fast on than >Talladega is in NASCAR, for example, so I can't say that I agree with >him.

John, that was my point, exactly. Oldero, is (much) more difficult than Talladega in N3, for example. At least it is for me... ;) I think that DTR is a fine little sim. If it had video replay, and engine sound that was more in-tune with the RPMs of the engine, it would be nigh on perfect, in my opinion.. -- * rrev at mindspring dot com *

Hi Ed, everything is set to 100%, physics and AI Exactly JB, I'm referring to the higher banked tracks, on some of which you can almost race like on tarmac. Talladega is indeed more easy, as it is so wide that you don't have to use the brakes. I had in mind the shorter tracks like Martinsville etc... I don't understand what should be narrow-minded with my view, I just don't like that hyping up the physics model of DTR to the GPL level. Enough said now, let's get back to playing DTR... CU Zolli

: The little A-class Mercedes is also known by the endearing nickname : "Valt-klasse" in Sweden. And that's only funny to our Swedish readers. : A tip-top car, otherwise... It's funny how the shape grows on you, isn't it? When the A-class first appeared in Switzerland, I thought it was the strangest looking thing, but slowly I've grown to like it, although I wouldn't buy one myself at the price. Maybe it's because the Smart car came along and made everything else look normal! Stephen

Sorry about that -- forgot the <G> after the narrow-minded remark. FWIW, I do think that DTR pretty much does as good of a job modeling late models on dirt as GPL does in modeling 1967 F1 machines on asphalt. This is why I rank DTR up there with GPL and Viper Racing, and ahead of others like SCGT. Ah! Then we ARE in agreement! <G> ;-) -- JB Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

SNIP The WHAT? Pics, please. /petern

: SNIP :>Maybe it's because the Smart car came along and made everything :>else look normal! :> :>Stephen : The WHAT? : Pics, please. : /petern www.smart.com Stephen

snip

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> Now, all of this may sound like I'm out in left field, but the REAL > heresy is yet to come -- based on my wheel time in Ford Racing after > playing around with GPL, I have to say that even though I really don't > like the steering response, the engine sounds, or the driving view, I > do think that Ford Racing seems to have a much better physics model > than NFS3 or NFS/HS, and it may be as good or better than SCGT, and > (here's the REAL stretch), it just MIGHT be nearly as good as Viper > Racing (and therein lies the heresy). Even as it is, I really think I > like the Ford Racing demo better than I did the entire Andretti Racing > game, but, then again, that's not really saying much, is it?

snip Man, you really had a lot on your mind John, but I managed to get though it, eventually :-), and while I happen to think that the FORD racing demo is something of the worst I've played to date, I happen to agree with you, the best thing about it is actually the physics bit, it's everything ELSE in it that sucks and pulls it down to it's incredibly low level I even managed to put on a decent four wheel drift a couple of times, go in too fast lift and turn to get the rear end to step out and then floor the throttle again, for a few seconds you can actually imagine a drift, but expecting people to pay for this game as it is now with rotten sound and not exactly stellar Gfx, setups that suck and a power curve in the engine (Puma in the demo) that is beyond belief, couple that with extremely slow AI and cars that only vaguely remind of a FORD Puma, is beyond me really, but as you said, the car *handling* bit isn't all that bad Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy

[SNIP] LOL! ROTFPP! That is the BEST run-on sentence I've seen in a LONG time -- and definitely a worthy response to my LOOOOONG-winded post! <G> Thanks for addressing the Ford Racing portion, rather than the GPL portion -- everybody and their second cousin seems to jump on a GPL reference, but I was equally interested in responses about Ford Racing. I really feel that one well-executed patch could truly elevate this game, but I fear we'll never see it, which is a shame for the sim community in general. -- JB Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

> LOL! ROTFPP! That is the BEST run-on sentence I've seen in a LONG > time -- and definitely a worthy response to my LOOOOONG-winded post! <G> Geez, everybody seems to be "complaining" about my long sentences lately, guess I'll have to make a fast working committee and look into the problem one day.... BTW, ROTFPP, wtf is that ? I see a lot of "bad" sims lately,*** Johnson's V8 (which is really a shame since we've never seen a good, or even not-bad, sim for this series), the STCC thing, which wasn't "bad" bad, but it certainly isn't ground braking in any way, SOS1937 etc, the few really good sims are few and far between these days, even Papy released a rehash of their rather ancient Nascar sim, and although I'm sure I'll enjoy it in MP once we get a decent dedicated server provider, playing it against the AI is no fun Is this a sign of how it's going to be in the times to come ? Yes I know about DTR, but that was a racing series with no interest to me, so even though I quite enjoyed the sim as such, I quickly grew tired of it due to having absolutely no interest in the series it represented, which is my loss I guess And then to see FORD put their name on the box of this latest thingy we discussed above.....I'm no FORD fan, but FORD has done an incredible amount of good for real racing all over the world, they have had strong factory teams but have also had the good sense to properly support the privateers, on all levels, so when the time came to put their logo on a game box, they chose this one ??? Please, someone, tell me I'm wrong, this is a true nightmare :-) On the other hand, Ratbag *did* come along as a breath of fresh air, and although as I previously mentioned didn't care much for the racing series they chose, they at least went their own way and did something besides F1, CART and Nascar, and people in the know, including one of my teammates in Team Mirage, tells me they did a fairly good job of it as well, so it isn't all bad, next up for something that hasn't been done before, "Skip Barber Racing", well, how bad can it bee :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy

Fork out the $20 (best deal in software anywhere), apply the patch, apply the sound patch, turn up the physics model, turn up the opponent AI, then tell me that this game sucks. Lots of fun for a cheap game. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.