Why is the PDPI L4 gamecard not more popular?

It seems that this gamecard has been out for over a year, and it is a MASSIVE improvement for sim racing. (read all the reviews). Its pretty cheap now, so why do people stick to the jitter and slowness of the traditional gameports ? I always found games like INDYCAR 2 and some other racesims virtually undrivable on streetcircuits because the lack of precision with my T2 wheel (even with new pots and mega-hardware). GP2 was the only game that really responded fast to gameport input. U guys raceing ICR2 for years: just tell me how you did it? I raced NASCAR 2 and INDYCAR2 on the ovals a lot, but street circuits and even road circuits were unrealistically hard because of slow gameport input. (don't give me this 'racecars are hard to control nonsense' .. I know!) Even at slow speeds the cars react VERY slow.. Still there have been racing leagues out there for ICR2 all this time.... Amasing.

I used a CH Products gamecard 3 back in the earlier days with my T2. The gameports on some of the newer pci soundcards, like the Live and the MX300, are very, very good. Since adding my Live card, along with having a TSW2 now, I do not use a dedicated gamecard anymore, and don't see the need for one. Worked very well for me in N2, and also N3, GPL, and Legends. I'm not saying the PDPI isn't good, and perhaps if I had one just to compare to my Live's gameport I may see a difference, I couldn't imagine it being a lot though. -- Don Burnette Dburn in N3 and Legends

> I'm not saying the PDPI isn't good, and perhaps if I had one just to compare > to my Live's gameport I may see a difference, I couldn't imagine it being a > lot though. I have a Live!, I have a PDPI L4, and I have a TSW2. The difference (Live! or PDPI) isn't just a lot, it's ridiculous. The best way to illustrate it is this way. When you calibrate your wheel in any Papyrus sim, the slider will jitter around all the time. In fact, that's also true when you calibrate it in the Windows control applet. When you use a PDPI, it doesn't. I had a friend over once and I told him my wheel was broken. "Look," I said, "when I calibrate it, the thing doesn't move everywhere, it just sits still. It has to be broken." I was joking, but he frowned and started checking cables and such. Then I explained to him and he became very surly. He had his own, non-PDPI-driven system to go home to... I'm not saying there is a great difference in game play, though. Although it's mighty nice to race down the Ring's straight and not have to worry about jitter bringing you off course. But I am saying, the difference in performance is very great. The PDPI doesn't compare to any other gamecard on the market. And I also don't understand why it's not more popular. -Laurens de Jong, The Netherlands.

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>I used a CH Products gamecard 3 back in the earlier days with my T2. >The gameports on some of the newer pci soundcards, like the Live and the >MX300, are very, very good. Since adding my Live card, along with having a >TSW2 now, I do not use a dedicated gamecard anymore, and don't see the need >for one. Worked very well for me in N2, and also N3, GPL, and Legends. >I'm not saying the PDPI isn't good, and perhaps if I had one just to compare >to my Live's gameport I may see a difference, I couldn't imagine it being a >lot though.

Well, I've gone from a soundblaster port, to thrustmaster acm, to a PDPI. I bought the PDPI before I bought my SBlive, so I've never run it through there. Each of the OTHER upgrades I made showed *marked* improvement. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

> performance is very great. The PDPI doesn't compare to any other gamecard > on the market. And I also don't understand why it's not more popular. The thing I don't understand is, why do people still buy old-fashioned crapola wheels and joysticks with the dreaded pots. Personally I wont buy another game controller unless it has some kind of optic potentiometers. -- ..... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... ..... . . . "Don't argue with idiots. They drag you down to . . their level, then beat you with experience." . ..... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .....

dreaded pots... hmmm... i use $2*** smith jobbies... i.e. the cheapest around... they only last around 4 weeks, but, when u have a "crapola" wheel like mine (homemade) thats what u have to put up with to do the fastlaps :o)))) [link lost in import] ...pics of my wheel and pedals.... which alot of ppl on ras would not have seen yet :) But ppl on vroc would have seen. Just in case u didn't know, this wheel powered me to 3rd in the gpl champs league last season, only just behind the alien (greger) and the hotlap freak (wolfi :) ....mmm powered may not be the approriate word :o)))) Anyway, a pdpi and optical pots do not make a "huge" difference. I've owned many gamecards, and the sblive is on par with the pdpi, or the thrustmaster. Sure, they are a little smoother, but really, that doesn't make a huge difference to the laptimes. I should know... I can do WR laps when I feel like it :) But yeah, i get your point... thats the reason i made a wheel. The commercial wheels on the market aren't very good. Ian /\ But no hotlaps recently cause i'd rather get drunk or play quake :) /\ On Sun, 2 Jan 2000 17:32:41 +0200, Toni Lassila

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>> performance is very great. The PDPI doesn't compare to any other gamecard >> on the market. And I also don't understand why it's not more popular. >The thing I don't understand is, why do people still buy old-fashioned >crapola wheels and joysticks with the dreaded pots. Personally I wont buy >another game controller unless it has some kind of optic potentiometers. >-- > ..... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... ..... > . . > . "Don't argue with idiots. They drag you down to . > . their level, then beat you with experience." . > ..... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .....

>dreaded pots... hmmm... i use $2*** smith jobbies... i.e. the >cheapest around... >they only last around 4 weeks, but, when u have a "crapola" wheel like >mine (homemade) thats what u have to put up with to do the fastlaps I'm surprised you only get 4 weeks out of those pots. I use the*** Smith pots in my RRC units and they have been lasting for months. Nigel -- Redline Race Controls http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/lakewood/Redline2.htm Nigel of Lakewood Motorsports Hamilton New Zealand

I think a lot of people have switched to USB wheels, and that would be one reason for it. I've found that the difference between gameport as USB is night and day as far as the jitters are concerned, and less CPU utilization is just a bonus. -- Scott Moore Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com] Powersims http://www.powersims.com

I have both the SB live and the PDPI (in different computers). The PDPI is absolutely jitter free but unfortunately it is limited to a resolution of 8 bits (range 0-255, with my wheel the usable range is ~50-200). The SB live jitters slightly but have better resolution (GPL calibration shows ~50-400, and the jitter actually improves the percieved resolution somewhat beyond that). When driving in GPL, my subjective feel is that the resolution limitation of the PDPI makes the SB live as good or even better. On a slowish computer the PDPI might be better though (because of the lower overhead). _ Mats Lofkvist

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> I used a CH Products gamecard 3 back in the earlier days with my T2. > The gameports on some of the newer pci soundcards, like the Live and the > MX300, are very, very good. Since adding my Live card, along with having a > TSW2 now, I do not use a dedicated gamecard anymore, and don't see the need > for one. Worked very well for me in N2, and also N3, GPL, and Legends. > I'm not saying the PDPI isn't good, and perhaps if I had one just to compare > to my Live's gameport I may see a difference, I couldn't imagine it being a > lot though. > -- > Don Burnette > Dburn in N3 and Legends > > It seems that this gamecard has been out for over a year, and it is a > > MASSIVE improvement for sim racing. (read all the reviews). > > Its pretty cheap now, so why do people stick to the jitter and slowness of > > the traditional gameports ?

The PDPI L4 card doesn't support digital devices. So if you have a digital FFB wheel you're out of luck. > > performance is very great. The PDPI doesn't compare to any other gamecard

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> > on the market. And I also don't understand why it's not more popular. > The thing I don't understand is, why do people still buy old-fashioned > crapola wheels and joysticks with the dreaded pots. Personally I wont buy > another game controller unless it has some kind of optic potentiometers. > -- > ..... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... ..... > . . > . "Don't argue with idiots. They drag you down to . > . their level, then beat you with experience." . > ..... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .....

What I enjoy most with the PDPI card is that I never have to recalibrate. /Chrille, hates hazzle

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>It seems that this gamecard has been out for over a year, and it is a >MASSIVE improvement for sim racing. (read all the reviews). >Its pretty cheap now, so why do people stick to the jitter and slowness of >the traditional gameports ? >I always found games like INDYCAR 2 and some other racesims virtually >undrivable on streetcircuits because the lack of precision with my T2 wheel >(even with new pots and mega-hardware). GP2 was the only game that really >responded fast to gameport input. >U guys raceing ICR2 for years: just tell me how you did it? >I raced NASCAR 2 and INDYCAR2 on the ovals a lot, but street circuits and >even road circuits were unrealistically hard because of slow gameport

input. >(don't give me this 'racecars are hard to control nonsense' .. I know!) >Even at slow speeds the cars react VERY slow.. >Still there have been racing leagues out there for ICR2 all this time.... >Amasing.

Try an MX300, it has the equivilant of a PDPI built in to the soundcard. In your joystick properties you can chose between standard gameport and Monster Sound II gameport. That being said, the difference is quite subtle on my system. I ran an SBPCI64 for six months and never worried about jitter at all. It was there when I calibrated, but I never worried while running down the Ring straight. Maybe you need better shielded cables on your wheel, or re-arrainge the wires behind your desk so they don't run parrallel. Don McCorkle

> > performance is very great. The PDPI doesn't compare to any other gamecard

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> > on the market. And I also don't understand why it's not more popular. > The thing I don't understand is, why do people still buy old-fashioned > crapola wheels and joysticks with the dreaded pots. Personally I wont buy > another game controller unless it has some kind of optic potentiometers. > -- > ..... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... ..... > . . > . "Don't argue with idiots. They drag you down to . > . their level, then beat you with experience." .

Toni, I would think that the governing reason is price vs available funds. Joel Willstein

"Try an MX300, it has the equivilant of a PDPI built in to the soundcard." You are SOOOOO wrong there dude. MX300 doesn't have filtering, flagging, or many of the other built in benefits of the PDPI L4. The MX300 simply has an additional chip onboard that simply converts the analog signals into digital signals. It still disables interrupts to do this, and spikes from ambient electrical current in the air around you (particularly behind your puter) will still cause jittering. A simple A->D cannot differentiate between a spiked reading and a consistent reading..... Cheers, Shumi > >I'm not saying there is a great difference in game play, though. Although > >it's mighty nice to race down the Ring's straight and not have to worry > >about jitter bringing you off course. But I am saying, the difference in > >performance is very great. The PDPI doesn't compare to any other gamecard > >on the market. And I also don't understand why it's not more popular. > Try an MX300, it has the equivilant of a PDPI built in to the soundcard. In > your joystick properties you can chose between standard gameport and Monster > Sound II gameport. That being said, the difference is quite subtle on my > system. I ran an SBPCI64 for six months and never worried about jitter at all. > It was there when I calibrated, but I never worried while running down the > Ring straight. Maybe you need better shielded cables on your wheel, or > re-arrainge the wires behind your desk so they don't run parrallel. > Don McCorkle

As a the newly appointed "Director of Marketing & Business Development" at PDPI, I have first hand knowledge of this subject since I have looked into it quite deeply. There are a number of factors that caused the popularity of the PDPI L4 to not reach it's full potential. First we have to look at the timing of the card's entry into the marketplace. It was launched in 1998 during a global decline in gamecard sales. The most obvious factor governing this decline was the introduction of USB and it's now full support by the operating system (Win 98). This caused a lot of controller manufacturers to simply look at the USB port as the means of connection since Microsoft did a good job marketing it (although it has a lot of advantages as a whole, and can be much more in performance should it be implemented correctly). The popularity of FF has also been a factor. The PDPI L4 only supports "analog" controllers, and FF controllers typically send their signals in a native digital format that the L4 does not comprehend coming in. In fact most FF controller manufacturers use the USB port (MSFF being the last to make the change over). Then we have the ugly factor that has been the main reason for my appointment. Quite frankly.... there are too many people who do not understand what the Standard Gameport does to your system. It taxes it through the nose (regardless of CPU power), and is extremely susceptible to jitter. They simply don't realize that it was invent and remained unchanged since 1981! USB has changed a lot of the taxation issues but not effectively solved the more important jitter issue. So in the end it is public ignorance (in a kind meaning of the word) that has doomed the achievement of potential sales/popularity for the L4. Another important factor is the admitted overall lack of marketing of the product. PDPI is a very small company who happen to currently specialize in interface technologies. However, we do not possess some of the "marketing funds" these game controller companies and soundcard companies do. As the guy who now decides where the currently limited marketing dough goes, I can tell you that we will not be focusing on the L4 in terms of marketing. We have bigger things in the works and the game controller industry will never be the same after we initiate our plans. The past 7 months of my tenure has been to find an investor who can realize our potential. I finally found it and we are in the process of closing the deal (should be done by mid-January). This will make PDPI a fully operational game controller manufacturer with the ability to mass-produce (which is the key to lower per-unit costs to the end-user). This means we will inititate our USB interface that we have completed R&D on. We have done for USB what we did for the gameport. We have carried over ALL of the functions of the L4 that still makes it superior to USB in it's currently found configurations, and adapted it to USB. Meaning... we can tackle the Jitter issue the exact same way we did on the L4. Meaning... we can remove the jitter, which means we do not have to cut into the positioning resolution to combat it. We can read a "full positioning resolution spectrum" without having to worry about Jitter. Which means we already have an advantage over other configurations in regards to precision and performance. Then we factor in the mandate that I am currently exercising. We are listening to YOU, designing for YOU, and have been paying very close attention to NGs like this one (among others) for answers to our design questions... the end result should be a controller for each genre that is custom designed to meet the enthusiasts and leisure users alike. With an affordable price tag to boot. We know what's wrong with the other wheels/sticks... and will make sure we avoid the same mistakes whilst adding a few of our own bonuses to boot. We will be on store shelves, and available around the world in such retail outlets. The products will be accessible, and the company will be doing it's best to give back to the Sim Communities in mainy forms (other than just making a good controller...). Rest assured Karl..... you will be hearing LOTS about us very soon :) Cheers, Shumi PDPI

Exciting stuff :o). Can I make a wish??? Okay, I'll do it anyway. I'm very pleased with my current PDPI card and just love the fact that I never have to recalibrate. I can only think of one improvement, the resolution, so I hope the USB card has a higher resolution. Has it, has it :o)? /Chrille, have two puters, so of course I have two PDPI cards ;o)

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> As a the newly appointed "Director of Marketing & Business Development" at > PDPI, I have first hand knowledge of this subject since I have looked into > it quite deeply. > There are a number of factors that caused the popularity of the PDPI L4 to > not reach it's full potential. > First we have to look at the timing of the card's entry into the > marketplace. It was launched in 1998 during a global decline in gamecard > sales. The most obvious factor governing this decline was the introduction > of USB and it's now full support by the operating system (Win 98). This > caused a lot of controller manufacturers to simply look at the USB port as > the means of connection since Microsoft did a good job marketing it > (although it has a lot of advantages as a whole, and can be much more in > performance should it be implemented correctly). > The popularity of FF has also been a factor. The PDPI L4 only supports > "analog" controllers, and FF controllers typically send their signals in a > native digital format that the L4 does not comprehend coming in. In fact > most FF controller manufacturers use the USB port (MSFF being the last to > make the change over). > Then we have the ugly factor that has been the main reason for my > appointment. Quite frankly.... there are too many people who do not > understand what the Standard Gameport does to your system. It taxes it > through the nose (regardless of CPU power), and is extremely susceptible

to > jitter. They simply don't realize that it was invent and remained unchanged > since 1981! USB has changed a lot of the taxation issues but not effectively > solved the more important jitter issue. So in the end it is public ignorance > (in a kind meaning of the word) that has doomed the achievement of potential > sales/popularity for the L4. > Another important factor is the admitted overall lack of marketing of the > product. PDPI is a very small company who happen to currently specialize in > interface technologies. However, we do not possess some of the "marketing > funds" these game controller companies and soundcard companies do. As the > guy who now decides where the currently limited marketing dough goes, I can > tell you that we will not be focusing on the L4 in terms of marketing. We > have bigger things in the works and the game controller industry will never > be the same after we initiate our plans. > The past 7 months of my tenure has been to find an investor who can realize

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> our potential. I finally found it and we are in the process of closing the > deal (should be done by mid-January). This will make PDPI a fully > operational game controller manufacturer with the ability to mass-produce > (which is the key to lower per-unit costs to the end-user). > This means we will inititate our USB interface that we have completed R&D > on. We have done for USB what we did for the gameport. We have carried

over

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> ALL of the functions of the L4 that still makes it superior to USB in it's > currently found configurations, and adapted it to USB. Meaning... we can > tackle the Jitter issue the exact same way we did on the L4. Meaning... we > can remove the jitter, which means we do not have to cut into the > positioning resolution to combat it. We can read a "full positioning > resolution spectrum" without having to worry about Jitter. Which means we > already have an advantage over other configurations in regards to

precision

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> and performance. > Then we factor in the mandate that I am currently exercising. We are > listening to YOU, designing for YOU, and have been paying very close > attention to NGs like this one (among others) for answers to our design > questions... the end result should be a controller for each genre that is > custom designed to meet the enthusiasts and leisure users alike. With an > affordable price tag to boot. We know what's wrong with the other > wheels/sticks... and will make sure we avoid the same mistakes whilst

adding > a few of our own bonuses to boot. > We will be on store shelves, and available around the world in such retail > outlets. The products will be accessible, and the company will be doing it's

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> best to give back to the Sim Communities in mainy forms (other than just > making a good controller...). > Rest assured Karl..... you will be hearing LOTS about us very soon :) > Cheers, > Shumi > PDPI > > It seems that this gamecard has been out for over a year, and it is a > > MASSIVE improvement for sim racing. (read all the reviews). > > Its pretty cheap now, so why do people stick to the jitter and slowness

of > > the traditional gameports ? > > I always found games like INDYCAR 2 and some other racesims virtually > > undrivable on streetcircuits because the lack of precision with my T2 > wheel > > (even with new pots and mega-hardware). GP2 was the only game that really > > responded fast to gameport input. > > U guys raceing ICR2 for years: just tell me how you did it? > > I raced NASCAR 2 and INDYCAR2 on the ovals a lot, but street circuits and > > even road circuits were unrealistically hard because of slow gameport > input. > > (don't give me this 'racecars are hard to control nonsense' .. I know!) > > Even at slow speeds the cars react VERY slow.. > > Still there have been racing leagues out there for ICR2 all this time.... > > Amasing.

Is this low resolution a problem in GPL? How do u notice this?

On Tue, 4 Jan 2000 22:55:11 +0100, "Christer Andersson" I am another PDPI user and I can't wait for a new product from them. Great post. mauricio

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>Exciting stuff :o). Can I make a wish??? Okay, I'll do it anyway. I'm very >pleased with my current PDPI card and just love the fact that I never have >to recalibrate. I can only think of one improvement, the resolution, so I >hope the USB card has a higher resolution. Has it, has it :o)? >/Chrille, have two puters, so of course I have two PDPI cards ;o) >> As a the newly appointed "Director of Marketing & Business Development" at >> PDPI, I have first hand knowledge of this subject since I have looked into >> it quite deeply. >> There are a number of factors that caused the popularity of the PDPI L4 to >> not reach it's full potential. >> First we have to look at the timing of the card's entry into the >> marketplace. It was launched in 1998 during a global decline in gamecard >> sales. The most obvious factor governing this decline was the introduction >> of USB and it's now full support by the operating system (Win 98). This >> caused a lot of controller manufacturers to simply look at the USB port as >> the means of connection since Microsoft did a good job marketing it >> (although it has a lot of advantages as a whole, and can be much more in >> performance should it be implemented correctly). >> The popularity of FF has also been a factor. The PDPI L4 only supports >> "analog" controllers, and FF controllers typically send their signals in a >> native digital format that the L4 does not comprehend coming in. In fact >> most FF controller manufacturers use the USB port (MSFF being the last to >> make the change over). >> Then we have the ugly factor that has been the main reason for my >> appointment. Quite frankly.... there are too many people who do not >> understand what the Standard Gameport does to your system. It taxes it >> through the nose (regardless of CPU power), and is extremely susceptible >to >> jitter. They simply don't realize that it was invent and remained >unchanged >> since 1981! USB has changed a lot of the taxation issues but not >effectively >> solved the more important jitter issue. So in the end it is public >ignorance >> (in a kind meaning of the word) that has doomed the achievement of >potential >> sales/popularity for the L4. >> Another important factor is the admitted overall lack of marketing of the >> product. PDPI is a very small company who happen to currently specialize >in >> interface technologies. However, we do not possess some of the "marketing >> funds" these game controller companies and soundcard companies do. As the >> guy who now decides where the currently limited marketing dough goes, I >can >> tell you that we will not be focusing on the L4 in terms of marketing. We >> have bigger things in the works and the game controller industry will >never >> be the same after we initiate our plans. >> The past 7 months of my tenure has been to find an investor who can >realize >> our potential. I finally found it and we are in the process of closing the >> deal (should be done by mid-January). This will make PDPI a fully >> operational game controller manufacturer with the ability to mass-produce >> (which is the key to lower per-unit costs to the end-user). >> This means we will inititate our USB interface that we have completed R&D >> on. We have done for USB what we did for the gameport. We have carried >over >> ALL of the functions of the L4 that still makes it superior to USB in it's >> currently found configurations, and adapted it to USB. Meaning... we can >> tackle the Jitter issue the exact same way we did on the L4. Meaning... we >> can remove the jitter, which means we do not have to cut into the >> positioning resolution to combat it. We can read a "full positioning >> resolution spectrum" without having to worry about Jitter. Which means we >> already have an advantage over other configurations in regards to >precision >> and performance. >> Then we factor in the mandate that I am currently exercising. We are >> listening to YOU, designing for YOU, and have been paying very close >> attention to NGs like this one (among others) for answers to our design >> questions... the end result should be a controller for each genre that is >> custom designed to meet the enthusiasts and leisure users alike. With an >> affordable price tag to boot. We know what's wrong with the other >> wheels/sticks... and will make sure we avoid the same mistakes whilst >adding >> a few of our own bonuses to boot. >> We will be on store shelves, and available around the world in such retail >> outlets. The products will be accessible, and the company will be doing >it's >> best to give back to the Sim Communities in mainy forms (other than just >> making a good controller...). >> Rest assured Karl..... you will be hearing LOTS about us very soon :) >> Cheers, >> Shumi >> PDPI >> > It seems that this gamecard has been out for over a year, and it is a >> > MASSIVE improvement for sim racing. (read all the reviews). >> > Its pretty cheap now, so why do people stick to the jitter and slowness >of >> > the traditional gameports ? >> > I always found games like INDYCAR 2 and some other racesims virtually >> > undrivable on streetcircuits because the lack of precision with my T2 >> wheel >> > (even with new pots and mega-hardware). GP2 was the only game that >really >> > responded fast to gameport input. >> > U guys raceing ICR2 for years: just tell me how you did it? >> > I raced NASCAR 2 and INDYCAR2 on the ovals a lot, but street circuits >and >> > even road circuits were unrealistically hard because of slow gameport >> input. >> > (don't give me this 'racecars are hard to control nonsense' .. I know!) >> > Even at slow speeds the cars react VERY slow.. >> > Still there have been racing leagues out there for ICR2 all this >time.... >> > Amasing.

We have increased the positioning resolution "exponentially" over the L4 (which still kicks ass over current USB implementations). How does "accuracy to within 1/5th of a degree of turn on a 230 radius" sound to you? Cheers, Shumi

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> Exciting stuff :o). Can I make a wish??? Okay, I'll do it anyway. I'm very > pleased with my current PDPI card and just love the fact that I never have > to recalibrate. I can only think of one improvement, the resolution, so I > hope the USB card has a higher resolution. Has it, has it :o)? > /Chrille, have two puters, so of course I have two PDPI cards ;o) > > As a the newly appointed "Director of Marketing & Business Development"

at > > PDPI, I have first hand knowledge of this subject since I have looked into > > it quite deeply. > > There are a number of factors that caused the popularity of the PDPI L4 to > > not reach it's full potential. > > First we have to look at the timing of the card's entry into the > > marketplace. It was launched in 1998 during a global decline in gamecard > > sales. The most obvious factor governing this decline was the introduction > > of USB and it's now full support by the operating system (Win 98). This > > caused a lot of controller manufacturers to simply look at the USB port as > > the means of connection since Microsoft did a good job marketing it > > (although it has a lot of advantages as a whole, and can be much more in > > performance should it be implemented correctly). > > The popularity of FF has also been a factor. The PDPI L4 only supports > > "analog" controllers, and FF controllers typically send their signals in a > > native digital format that the L4 does not comprehend coming in. In fact > > most FF controller manufacturers use the USB port (MSFF being the last to

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> > make the change over). > > Then we have the ugly factor that has been the main reason for my > > appointment. Quite frankly.... there are too many people who do not > > understand what the Standard Gameport does to your system. It taxes it > > through the nose (regardless of CPU power), and is extremely susceptible > to > > jitter. They simply don't realize that it was invent and remained > unchanged > > since 1981! USB has changed a lot of the taxation issues but not > effectively > > solved the more important jitter issue. So in the end it is public > ignorance > > (in a kind meaning of the word) that has doomed the achievement of > potential > > sales/popularity for the L4. > > Another important factor is the admitted overall lack of marketing of

the > > product. PDPI is a very small company who happen to currently specialize > in > > interface technologies. However, we do not possess some of the "marketing > > funds" these game controller companies and soundcard companies do. As the > > guy who now decides where the currently limited marketing dough goes, I > can > > tell you that we will not be focusing on the L4 in terms of marketing. We

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> > have bigger things in the works and the game controller industry will > never > > be the same after we initiate our plans. > > The past 7 months of my tenure has been to find an investor who can > realize > > our potential. I finally found it and we are in the process of closing

the > > deal (should be done by mid-January). This will make PDPI a fully > > operational game controller manufacturer with the ability to mass-produce > > (which is the key to lower per-unit costs to the end-user). > > This means we will inititate our USB interface that we have completed R&D > > on. We have done for USB what we did for the gameport. We have carried > over > > ALL of the functions of the L4 that still makes it superior to USB in it's > > currently found configurations, and adapted it to USB. Meaning... we can > > tackle the Jitter issue the exact same way we did on the L4. Meaning... we > > can remove the jitter, which means we do not have to cut into the > > positioning resolution to combat it. We can read a "full positioning > > resolution spectrum" without having to worry about Jitter. Which means we

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> > already have an advantage over other configurations in regards to > precision > > and performance. > > Then we factor in the mandate that I am currently exercising. We are > > listening to YOU, designing for YOU, and have been paying very close > > attention to NGs like this one (among others) for answers to our design > > questions... the end result should be a controller for each genre that

is

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> > custom designed to meet the enthusiasts and leisure users alike. With an > > affordable price tag to boot. We know what's wrong with the other > > wheels/sticks... and will make sure we avoid the same mistakes whilst > adding > > a few of our own bonuses to boot. > > We will be on store shelves, and available around the world in such

retail

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> > outlets. The products will be accessible, and the company will be doing > it's > > best to give back to the Sim Communities in mainy forms (other than just > > making a good controller...). > > Rest assured Karl..... you will be hearing LOTS about us very soon :) > > Cheers, > > Shumi > > PDPI > > > It seems that this gamecard has been out for over a year, and it is a > > > MASSIVE improvement for sim racing. (read all the reviews). > > > Its pretty cheap now, so why do people stick to the jitter and

slowness

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> of > > > the traditional gameports ? > > > I always found games like INDYCAR 2 and some other racesims virtually > > > undrivable on streetcircuits because the lack of precision with my T2 > > wheel > > > (even with new pots and mega-hardware). GP2 was the only game that > really > > > responded fast to gameport input. > > > U guys raceing ICR2 for years: just tell me how you did it? > > > I raced NASCAR 2 and INDYCAR2 on the ovals a lot, but street circuits > and > > > even road circuits were unrealistically hard because of slow gameport > > input. > > > (don't give me this 'racecars are hard to control nonsense' .. I

know!) > > > Even at slow speeds the cars react VERY slow.. > > > Still there have been racing leagues out there for ICR2 all this > time.... > > > Amasing.

WHEN we'll be able to order USB PDPI gamecard! Please try to be specific as much as possible. Thank you in advance. Darko PS "1/5th of a degree of turn on a 230 radius" - sounds great!

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> As a the newly appointed "Director of Marketing & Business Development" at > PDPI, I have first hand knowledge of this subject since I have looked into > it quite deeply. > There are a number of factors that caused the popularity of the PDPI L4 to > not reach it's full potential. > First we have to look at the timing of the card's entry into the > marketplace. It was launched in 1998 during a global decline in gamecard > sales. The most obvious factor governing this decline was the introduction > of USB and it's now full support by the operating system (Win 98). This > caused a lot of controller manufacturers to simply look at the USB port as > the means of connection since Microsoft did a good job marketing it > (although it has a lot of advantages as a whole, and can be much more in > performance should it be implemented correctly). > The popularity of FF has also been a factor. The PDPI L4 only supports > "analog" controllers, and FF controllers typically send their signals in a > native digital format that the L4 does not comprehend coming in. In fact > most FF controller manufacturers use the USB port (MSFF being the last to > make the change over). > Then we have the ugly factor that has been the main reason for my > appointment. Quite frankly.... there are too many people who do not > understand what the Standard Gameport does to your system. It taxes it > through the nose (regardless of CPU power), and is extremely susceptible

to > jitter. They simply don't realize that it was invent and remained unchanged > since 1981! USB has changed a lot of the taxation issues but not effectively > solved the more important jitter issue. So in the end it is public ignorance > (in a kind meaning of the word) that has doomed the achievement of potential > sales/popularity for the L4. > Another important factor is the admitted overall lack of marketing of the > product. PDPI is a very small company who happen to currently specialize in > interface technologies. However, we do not possess some of the "marketing > funds" these game controller companies and soundcard companies do. As the > guy who now decides where the currently limited marketing dough goes, I can > tell you that we will not be focusing on the L4 in terms of marketing. We > have bigger things in the works and the game controller industry will never > be the same after we initiate our plans. > The past 7 months of my tenure has been to find an investor who can realize

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> our potential. I finally found it and we are in the process of closing the > deal (should be done by mid-January). This will make PDPI a fully > operational game controller manufacturer with the ability to mass-produce > (which is the key to lower per-unit costs to the end-user). > This means we will inititate our USB interface that we have completed R&D > on. We have done for USB what we did for the gameport. We have carried

over

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> ALL of the functions of the L4 that still makes it superior to USB in it's > currently found configurations, and adapted it to USB. Meaning... we can > tackle the Jitter issue the exact same way we did on the L4. Meaning... we > can remove the jitter, which means we do not have to cut into the > positioning resolution to combat it. We can read a "full positioning > resolution spectrum" without having to worry about Jitter. Which means we > already have an advantage over other configurations in regards to

precision

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> and performance. > Then we factor in the mandate that I am currently exercising. We are > listening to YOU, designing for YOU, and have been paying very close > attention to NGs like this one (among others) for answers to our design > questions... the end result should be a controller for each genre that is > custom designed to meet the enthusiasts and leisure users alike. With an > affordable price tag to boot. We know what's wrong with the other > wheels/sticks... and will make sure we avoid the same mistakes whilst

adding > a few of our own bonuses to boot. > We will be on store shelves, and available around the world in such retail > outlets. The products will be accessible, and the company will be doing it's

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> best to give back to the Sim Communities in mainy forms (other than just > making a good controller...). > Rest assured Karl..... you will be hearing LOTS about us very soon :) > Cheers, > Shumi > PDPI > > It seems that this gamecard has been out for over a year, and it is a > > MASSIVE improvement for sim racing. (read all the reviews). > > Its pretty cheap now, so why do people stick to the jitter and slowness

of > > the traditional gameports ? > > I always found games like INDYCAR 2 and some other racesims virtually > > undrivable on streetcircuits because the lack of precision with my T2 > wheel > > (even with new pots and mega-hardware). GP2 was the only game that really > > responded fast to gameport input. > > U guys raceing ICR2 for years: just tell me how you did it? > > I raced NASCAR 2 and INDYCAR2 on the ovals a lot, but street circuits and > > even road circuits were unrealistically hard because of slow gameport > input. > > (don't give me this 'racecars are hard to control nonsense' .. I know!) > > Even at slow speeds the cars react VERY slow.. > > Still there have been racing leagues out there for ICR2 all this time.... > > Amasing.

It's not a card..... We are going to make joysticks, wheels, etc. We will do the whole unit... do it the way you guys want it... and do it better than the rest. Simple. You should start to see our products arrive in the beginning of Q2 2000. Cheers, Shumi > WHEN we'll be able to order USB PDPI gamecard! Please try to be specific as

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> much as possible. Thank you in advance. > Darko > PS > "1/5th of a degree of turn on a 230 radius" - sounds great! > > As a the newly appointed "Director of Marketing & Business Development"

at > > PDPI, I have first hand knowledge of this subject since I have looked into > > it quite deeply. > > There are a number of factors that caused the popularity of the PDPI L4 to > > not reach it's full potential. > > First we have to look at the timing of the card's entry into the > > marketplace. It was launched in 1998 during a global decline in gamecard > > sales. The most obvious factor governing this decline was the introduction > > of USB and it's now full support by the operating system (Win 98). This > > caused a lot of controller manufacturers to simply look at the USB port as > > the means of connection since Microsoft did a good job marketing it > > (although it has a lot of advantages as a whole, and can be much more in > > performance should it be implemented correctly). > > The popularity of FF has also been a factor. The PDPI L4 only supports > > "analog" controllers, and FF controllers typically send their signals in a > > native digital format that the L4 does not comprehend coming in. In fact > > most FF controller manufacturers use the USB port (MSFF being the last to

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> > make the change over). > > Then we have the ugly factor that has been the main reason for my > > appointment. Quite frankly.... there are too many people who do not > > understand what the Standard Gameport does to your system. It taxes it > > through the nose (regardless of CPU power), and is extremely susceptible > to > > jitter. They simply don't realize that it was invent and remained > unchanged > > since 1981! USB has changed a lot of the taxation issues but not > effectively > > solved the more important jitter issue. So in the end it is public > ignorance > > (in a kind meaning of the word) that has doomed the achievement of > potential > > sales/popularity for the L4. > > Another important factor is the admitted overall lack of marketing of

the > > product. PDPI is a very small company who happen to currently specialize > in > > interface technologies. However, we do not possess some of the "marketing > > funds" these game controller companies and soundcard companies do. As the > > guy who now decides where the currently limited marketing dough goes, I > can > > tell you that we will not be focusing on the L4 in terms of marketing. We

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> > have bigger things in the works and the game controller industry will > never > > be the same after we initiate our plans. > > The past 7 months of my tenure has been to find an investor who can > realize > > our potential. I finally found it and we are in the process of closing

the > > deal (should be done by mid-January). This will make PDPI a fully > > operational game controller manufacturer with the ability to mass-produce > > (which is the key to lower per-unit costs to the end-user). > > This means we will inititate our USB interface that we have completed R&D > > on. We have done for USB what we did for the gameport. We have carried > over > > ALL of the functions of the L4 that still makes it superior to USB in it's > > currently found configurations, and adapted it to USB. Meaning... we can > > tackle the Jitter issue the exact same way we did on the L4. Meaning... we > > can remove the jitter, which means we do not have to cut into the > > positioning resolution to combat it. We can read a "full positioning > > resolution spectrum" without having to worry about Jitter. Which means we

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> > already have an advantage over other configurations in regards to > precision > > and performance. > > Then we factor in the mandate that I am currently exercising. We are > > listening to YOU, designing for YOU, and have been paying very close > > attention to NGs like this one (among others) for answers to our design > > questions... the end result should be a controller for each genre that

is

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> > custom designed to meet the enthusiasts and leisure users alike. With an > > affordable price tag to boot. We know what's wrong with the other > > wheels/sticks... and will make sure we avoid the same mistakes whilst > adding > > a few of our own bonuses to boot. > > We will be on store shelves, and available around the world in such

retail

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> > outlets. The products will be accessible, and the company will be doing > it's > > best to give back to the Sim Communities in mainy forms (other than just > > making a good controller...). > > Rest assured Karl..... you will be hearing LOTS about us very soon :) > > Cheers, > > Shumi > > PDPI > > > It seems that this gamecard has been out for over a year, and it is a > > > MASSIVE improvement for sim racing. (read all the reviews). > > > Its pretty cheap now, so why do people stick to the jitter and

slowness

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> of > > > the traditional gameports ? > > > I always found games like INDYCAR 2 and some other racesims virtually > > > undrivable on streetcircuits because the lack of precision with my T2 > > wheel > > > (even with new pots and mega-hardware). GP2 was the only game that > really > > > responded fast to gameport input. > > > U guys raceing ICR2 for years: just tell me how you did it? > > > I raced NASCAR 2 and INDYCAR2 on the ovals a lot, but street circuits > and > > > even road circuits were unrealistically hard because of slow gameport > > input. > > > (don't give me this 'racecars are hard to control nonsense' .. I

know!) > > > Even at slow speeds the cars react VERY slow.. > > > Still there have been racing leagues out there for ICR2 all this > time.... > > > Amasing.

> We have increased the positioning resolution "exponentially" over the L4 "exponentially" doesn't tell much. It's actually rather ridiculus to talk about when you only compare two points (L4 and the USB) as it's as linear as it gets. The factor of the increase is what is interesting if you want to compare the two. Strange. I can understand the 1/5th of a degree stuff, but "230 radius"? (English is not my native language, please enlighten me.) -- [asbjxrn] [lLd25z*%ds1-100/sLlSdI%ds2-O/sSl1l2*PlL0<l]sl 21172310731916131628237117 3237142523312SSSLllxq

i don't get the observations you guys seem to have, since i have found the opposite to be true about this subject , going from a standard game port to an accelerated port was one of the biggest improvements ever i have made in my *** system, the CPU usage went to nill, and the response and presicion are impecable . i tried a usb wheel and found it to stop play and use more CPU and get confused , get lost, and basically suck compared to a controller on the accelerated game port. i never have to calibrate my wheel , i don't get any hesitation, and my controller in no way slows down game play, which is completely unlike what i experienced when using a usb controller i think the fad of usb is a joke for game controllers, we have a dedicated port on the system for controllers,(joystick port) and mine is far superior to a "Universal" port of USB, which has to be interpalated into DX game controllers in software somehow, anyway i have the opposite opinion about this USB crap, I hate it for my controllers , it may be alright for cameras and scanners, but not for wheels,

Most serious sim racers and virtual pilots have been using this card for over a year now and it has been quite a big secret in the the racing comunity. I do know most of the guy's I race against now use the L4 simply because of my lack of DNF's I just dont get droped from races anymore. Thers is so much great things to say about the L4 that I can fill many pages of info the L4 does that no other card on earth can do. I know for a fact that if you dont see a major Improvement with the L4 it's simply not configured correctly. Also PDPI is swamped with orders they cant fill right now because of production. In the very near future PDPI will have a new production facility and than everybody will have one or they will simply be left in the dust. Jon -- Jonathan Lockhart Driver of the #9 TEAM PDPI Ford Taurus http://www.racersonline.com/teampdpi/ Sponsored by PDPI makers of the L4 game card. http://www.pdpi.net And VRF Corp. makers of the tactile feedback seat. http://www.tactilefeedback.com Proud Member of the Hawaii Ace League Thomas Enterprises Racing Series http://www.hal.dithots.org

True, usb is totaly ***for controlers It's so eratic it's just junk compared to a regular game port. Jon -- Jonathan Lockhart Driver of the #9 TEAM PDPI Ford Taurus http://www.racersonline.com/teampdpi/ Sponsored by PDPI makers of the L4 game card. http://www.pdpi.net And VRF Corp. makers of the tactile feedback seat. http://www.tactilefeedback.com Proud Member of the Hawaii Ace League Thomas Enterprises Racing Series http://www.hal.dithots.org

> True, usb is totaly ***for controlers It's so eratic it's just junk > compared to a regular game port. > -- > Jonathan Lockhart Huh? Not my experience at all. The USB ACT Labs wheel is very solid. I still run my pedals though an L4 though. -- Pat Dotson

> [snip] > I know for a fact that if you dont see a major Improvement with the L4 it's > simply not configured correctly. Please tell me how to configure my L4 to increase the resolution. I haven't been able to get more than 256 ticks out of it, and that just isn't enough to make it a major improvement in precision. _ Mats Lofkvist

On Thu, 6 Jan 2000 10:29:44 -0600, "James Tinnin" I must admit I agree when it comes to steering wheels that the current implementation of USB is poor. But on that subject I was wondering if there is any way to connect the LWFF to a PDPI L4? Cheers. Mauricio.

You cant, thats it for now. But those clicks are a hell of alot cleaner and precise than anything else. How does 4096 sound to you? When they make it it will blow everything else away. Jon > > [snip] > > I know for a fact that if you dont see a major Improvement with the L4 it's

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> > simply not configured correctly. > Please tell me how to configure my L4 to increase the resolution. > I haven't been able to get more than 256 ticks out of it, and that > just isn't enough to make it a major improvement in precision. > _ > Mats Lofkvist

>True, usb is totaly ***for controlers It's so eratic it's just junk >compared to a regular game port. >Jon Well, I wouldn't go as far as the regular gameport as it is by far the worst choice for controllers, it's an old design that will fade away very soon, hopefully. Mauricio.

Thank you..... you have just completely backed up what I have been saying all along. The current implementations of USB in controllers today are GARBAGE. They apparently have NO idea what they are doing, and why should they.... they have been designing game controllers for the standard gameport in basic analog configurations, and left the interfacing responsibilities to the sound card companies and the gamecard companies. You'll actually find that most USB controllers out there are using "default USB" algorithms that are supplied by the chip manufacturers (some decide to get creative and do some minor tweaks such as cutting into the positioning resolution to stabilize the jitter). Then we get into FF USB and we find out that all are using the Immersion Chip.... the only thing is.... Immersion WILL NOT allow the algorithms to be altered. They will not even release it to you in code format. So all FF controllers are stuck with Immersion's algorithm that is specialized towards FF and NOT positioning. We (PDPI) are taking a COMPLETELY different approach and have the advantage of being a "interface company" before we become a controller company. We are fully aware of the intricacies of USB design (since it's our field) and have made extraordinary advancements in the ways of proprietary algorithms that incorporate all of the features that made the L4 such a great interface. The other guys are quite a ways back from us.... and that's because we have been engaged in interface R/D exclusively since 1993. Frankly.... we are years ahead and the other guys told/know it. We are confident that you will be extremely impressed with our implementations. ECCI and TSW are scratching at the door to license it and have been hesitant to enter into USB because of the brutal implementations to date. They saw our, and had to have it. I'm not going to go into the intricacies of the technology on here... the competition will have to wait for our arrival in the marketplace before they see what we have done to leave them in the dust. Cheers, Shumi

What does this mean, Schumi? IS the resulution of the CURRENT available L4 ports better than 8 bits (range 0-255)??? Yes or no? Karl

Anyway Schumi, I think u should send me a L4 port for free , for putting so much attention for your product by asking the original question on this channel: Why is the PDPI L4 gamecard not more popular? (I now how to start a discussion) Check out how many people answered: By now EVERYBODY must know what a PDPI L4 gameport is :) Happy New Year If i get one for free, I wouldnt have to put more effort into convincing my wife I really NEED a L4 :)

Compare the nearest compare-sake in the Logi at 128 positioning resolution (roughly every second degree of turn accounted for) and then look at twice that with 256 and I'd say that was a dramatic improvement in resolution. We have bettered that exponentially without USB interface. You see more "total" ticks in the interface with other wheels..... but I can guarantee you that not "every tick" is accounted for in wheel position. In fact..... they inflate the overall spectrum to make room for more ticks they can buffer in between to combat the mechanical jitter. It's a double edged sword.... and don't be "taken" by the total number of ticks as the positioning resolution..... it simply isn't the case. The L4 is currently running an 8-bit positioning resolution and that maxes the ability at 256. However... all 256 ticks represent a wheel position, and it is ROCK SOLID in stability, precision, performance, and responsiveness. Keep in mind that current USB interfaces are also using 8-bit USB chip outputs, and really have NO advantage over the L4 in "ability" regarding positioning resolution. I realize that I am being vague in my replies regarding our "current achievements", but that is because it is sensitive information that we would not like to share with the competition. I only started posting massively on this NG because I sensed an air of frustration from you guys, and noticed a lot of uninformed advice floating around regarding "which is the better wheel". I started to post what we are working on so that you guys could have the peace of mind to know that someone IS listening.... someone CAN give you what you want, and something WILL be available soon at an affordable price. If the other guys are high jumping 10 feet right now..... we are jumping 2000 feet. Please be patient and you will have the things you are asking for very soon. Cheers, Shumi > > [snip] > > I know for a fact that if you dont see a major Improvement with the L4 it's

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> > simply not configured correctly. > Please tell me how to configure my L4 to increase the resolution. > I haven't been able to get more than 256 ticks out of it, and that > just isn't enough to make it a major improvement in precision. > _ > Mats Lofkvist

No..... the L4 is limited to 256 positioning resolution (8-bit output). However..... all wheels on the market using USB are using an 8-bit USB chip as well..... they just explode the positioning resolution "spectrum" to accommodate larger buffers to combat the mechanical jitter. You can explode the positioning resolution "spectrum" all you want (to a limit of 16,535)..... but you're still only left with a maximum of 256 positions that represent a position of the wheel. Don't be fooled by what GPL shows..... it shows the spectrum..... not the resolution. Cheers, Shumi

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> > We have increased the positioning resolution "exponentially" over the L4 > > (which still kicks ass over current USB implementations). How does > "accuracy > > to within 1/5th of a degree of turn on a 230 radius" sound to you? > What does this mean, Schumi? > IS the resulution of the CURRENT available L4 ports better than 8 bits > (range 0-255)??? > Yes or no? > Karl

Ok Shumi, controllers, etc. are in the works, but is a newer higher resolution version of the L4, USB or otherwise, in the works? My ECCI is connected to an L4, and would love higher resolution. THM > Thank you..... you have just completely backed up what I have been saying > all along. The current implementations of USB in controllers today are > GARBAGE. They apparently have NO idea what they are doing, and why should > they.... they have been designing game controllers for the standard gameport > in basic analog configurations, and left the interfacing responsibilities to > the sound card companies and the gamecard companies. > You'll actually find that most USB controllers out there are using "default > USB" algorithms that are supplied by the chip manufacturers (some decide to > get creative and do some minor tweaks such as cutting into the positioning > resolution to stabilize the jitter). Then we get into FF USB and we find out > that all are using the Immersion Chip.... the only thing is.... Immersion > WILL NOT allow the algorithms to be altered. They will not even release it > to you in code format. So all FF controllers are stuck with Immersion's > algorithm that is specialized towards FF and NOT positioning. > We (PDPI) are taking a COMPLETELY different approach and have the advantage > of being a "interface company" before we become a controller company. We are > fully aware of the intricacies of USB design (since it's our field) and have > made extraordinary advancements in the ways of proprietary algorithms that > incorporate all of the features that made the L4 such a great interface. The > other guys are quite a ways back from us.... and that's because we have been

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> engaged in interface R/D exclusively since 1993. Frankly.... we are years > ahead and the other guys told/know it. > We are confident that you will be extremely impressed with our > implementations. ECCI and TSW are scratching at the door to license it and > have been hesitant to enter into USB because of the brutal implementations > to date. They saw our, and had to have it. > I'm not going to go into the intricacies of the technology on here... the > competition will have to wait for our arrival in the marketplace before

they

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> see what we have done to leave them in the dust. > Cheers, > Shumi > > i don't get the observations you guys seem to have, since i have found

the > > opposite to be true about this subject , > > going from a standard game port to an accelerated port was one of the > > biggest improvements ever i have made in my *** system, the CPU usage > > went to nill, and the response and presicion are impecable . > > i tried a usb wheel and found it to stop play and use more CPU and get > > confused , get lost, and basically suck compared to a controller on the > > accelerated game port. > > i never have to calibrate my wheel , i don't get any hesitation, and my > > controller in no way slows down game play, which is completely unlike what > i > > experienced when using a usb controller > > i think the fad of usb is a joke for game controllers, > > we have a dedicated port on the system for controllers,(joystick port) and > > mine is far superior to a "Universal" port of USB, which has to be > > interpalated into DX game controllers in software somehow, > > anyway i have the opposite opinion about this USB crap, I hate it for my > > controllers , > > it may be alright for cameras and scanners, but not for wheels,

<snip> What about longevity. I've heard that the PDPI doesn't support digital at the moment and I'm hoping that digital controllers will be more longer lasting than the current crop of ones that use pots. Will your new controllers be digital and, if not, what are the comparisons between digital and non-digital controllers longevity-wise? -- Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) No person's opinions can be said to be more correct than another's, because each is the sole judge of his or her own experience.

Talking to ECCI about a "PDPI Kit" that you will be able to buy exclusively for the ECCI wheels. We are also talking to TSW about producing the same kits. Basically, you remove the SG innards, and replace it with USB innards. Sounds complicated.... but it's really not if you've every cracked either of the two wheels open. Nothing firm yet.... but we are in discussions. As for a "higher resolution L4"... we are also considering this, and the new design would be in a PCI configuration if we decided to move forward on it. I'm not going to give out numbers... but it would be the equivalent to our USB resolutions. I'll keep you posted on it.... but be aware that this project would have to take a back seat to others we are currently involved in. Cheers, Shumi P.S. 256 positioning resolution accounts for every degree of turn when using the L4. Furthermore... you have a patented filtering system to remove the jitter (we will use the same in USB configs.), and we also incorporate what we call "hysteresis". This hysteresis theoretically gives you a 512 positioning resolution since it can differentiate down to half of a positioning resolution unit. Meaning... you have 256 resolution... but it doesn't move over to the unit beside it until it has sensed a wheel travel of .5 degrees. In fact this is what makes us so precise. Other wheels (particularly USB) move to the next available unit (sometimes 6-10 steps over), as soon as the wheel is moved even slightly beyond the unit. Meaning you get "overshoots" in the positioning (which many have experienced on this NG). We don't get that because of our hysteresis. So in ending... I'm not sure why you think it's imprecise... it's the best you can buy in this day and age, and I'll pay $100.00 US to anyone who can show me something that does better currently or past.

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> Ok Shumi, controllers, etc. are in the works, but is a newer higher > resolution version of the L4, USB or otherwise, in the works? My ECCI is > connected to an L4, and would love higher resolution. > THM > > Thank you..... you have just completely backed up what I have been

saying > > all along. The current implementations of USB in controllers today are > > GARBAGE. They apparently have NO idea what they are doing, and why should > > they.... they have been designing game controllers for the standard > gameport > > in basic analog configurations, and left the interfacing responsibilities

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> to > > the sound card companies and the gamecard companies. > > You'll actually find that most USB controllers out there are using > "default > > USB" algorithms that are supplied by the chip manufacturers (some decide > to > > get creative and do some minor tweaks such as cutting into the

positioning > > resolution to stabilize the jitter). Then we get into FF USB and we find > out > > that all are using the Immersion Chip.... the only thing is.... Immersion > > WILL NOT allow the algorithms to be altered. They will not even release it

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> > to you in code format. So all FF controllers are stuck with Immersion's > > algorithm that is specialized towards FF and NOT positioning. > > We (PDPI) are taking a COMPLETELY different approach and have the > advantage > > of being a "interface company" before we become a controller company. We > are > > fully aware of the intricacies of USB design (since it's our field) and > have > > made extraordinary advancements in the ways of proprietary algorithms

that > > incorporate all of the features that made the L4 such a great interface. > The > > other guys are quite a ways back from us.... and that's because we have > been > > engaged in interface R/D exclusively since 1993. Frankly.... we are years > > ahead and the other guys told/know it. > > We are confident that you will be extremely impressed with our > > implementations. ECCI and TSW are scratching at the door to license it and > > have been hesitant to enter into USB because of the brutal implementations > > to date. They saw our, and had to have it. > > I'm not going to go into the intricacies of the technology on here... the

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> > competition will have to wait for our arrival in the marketplace before > they > > see what we have done to leave them in the dust. > > Cheers, > > Shumi > > > i don't get the observations you guys seem to have, since i have found > the > > > opposite to be true about this subject , > > > going from a standard game port to an accelerated port was one of the > > > biggest improvements ever i have made in my *** system, the CPU > usage > > > went to nill, and the response and presicion are impecable . > > > i tried a usb wheel and found it to stop play and use more CPU and get > > > confused , get lost, and basically suck compared to a controller on

the > > > accelerated game port. > > > i never have to calibrate my wheel , i don't get any hesitation, and my

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> > > controller in no way slows down game play, which is completely unlike > what > > i > > > experienced when using a usb controller > > > i think the fad of usb is a joke for game controllers, > > > we have a dedicated port on the system for controllers,(joystick port) > and > > > mine is far superior to a "Universal" port of USB, which has to be > > > interpalated into DX game controllers in software somehow, > > > anyway i have the opposite opinion about this USB crap, I hate it

for > my > > > controllers , > > > it may be alright for cameras and scanners, but not for wheels,

Good news. BTW, I didn't say it was imprecise, I just said I'd love higher resolution (i.e., even higher resolution). THM > Talking to ECCI about a "PDPI Kit" that you will be able to buy exclusively > for the ECCI wheels. We are also talking to TSW about producing the same > kits. Basically, you remove the SG innards, and replace it with USB innards. > Sounds complicated.... but it's really not if you've every cracked either of > the two wheels open. > Nothing firm yet.... but we are in discussions. > As for a "higher resolution L4"... we are also considering this, and the new > design would be in a PCI configuration if we decided to move forward on it.

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> I'm not going to give out numbers... but it would be the equivalent to our > USB resolutions. I'll keep you posted on it.... but be aware that this > project would have to take a back seat to others we are currently involved > in. > Cheers, > Shumi > P.S. 256 positioning resolution accounts for every degree of turn when

using > the L4. Furthermore... you have a patented filtering system to remove the > jitter (we will use the same in USB configs.), and we also incorporate what

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> we call "hysteresis". This hysteresis theoretically gives you a 512 > positioning resolution since it can differentiate down to half of a > positioning resolution unit. Meaning... you have 256 resolution... but it > doesn't move over to the unit beside it until it has sensed a wheel travel > of .5 degrees. In fact this is what makes us so precise. Other wheels > (particularly USB) move to the next available unit (sometimes 6-10 steps > over), as soon as the wheel is moved even slightly beyond the unit.

Meaning > you get "overshoots" in the positioning (which many have experienced on this

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> NG). We don't get that because of our hysteresis. So in ending... I'm not > sure why you think it's imprecise... it's the best you can buy in this day > and age, and I'll pay $100.00 US to anyone who can show me something that > does better currently or past. > > Ok Shumi, controllers, etc. are in the works, but is a newer higher > > resolution version of the L4, USB or otherwise, in the works? My ECCI

is

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> > connected to an L4, and would love higher resolution. > > THM > > > Thank you..... you have just completely backed up what I have been > saying > > > all along. The current implementations of USB in controllers today are > > > GARBAGE. They apparently have NO idea what they are doing, and why > should > > > they.... they have been designing game controllers for the standard > > gameport > > > in basic analog configurations, and left the interfacing > responsibilities > > to > > > the sound card companies and the gamecard companies. > > > You'll actually find that most USB controllers out there are using > > "default > > > USB" algorithms that are supplied by the chip manufacturers (some

decide > > to > > > get creative and do some minor tweaks such as cutting into the > positioning > > > resolution to stabilize the jitter). Then we get into FF USB and we find > > out > > > that all are using the Immersion Chip.... the only thing is.... > Immersion > > > WILL NOT allow the algorithms to be altered. They will not even release > it > > > to you in code format. So all FF controllers are stuck with Immersion's > > > algorithm that is specialized towards FF and NOT positioning. > > > We (PDPI) are taking a COMPLETELY different approach and have the > > advantage > > > of being a "interface company" before we become a controller company. We > > are > > > fully aware of the intricacies of USB design (since it's our field) and > > have > > > made extraordinary advancements in the ways of proprietary algorithms > that > > > incorporate all of the features that made the L4 such a great interface. > > The > > > other guys are quite a ways back from us.... and that's because we have

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> > been > > > engaged in interface R/D exclusively since 1993. Frankly.... we are > years > > > ahead and the other guys told/know it. > > > We are confident that you will be extremely impressed with our > > > implementations. ECCI and TSW are scratching at the door to license it > and > > > have been hesitant to enter into USB because of the brutal > implementations > > > to date. They saw our, and had to have it. > > > I'm not going to go into the intricacies of the technology on here... > the > > > competition will have to wait for our arrival in the marketplace

before

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> > they > > > see what we have done to leave them in the dust. > > > Cheers, > > > Shumi > > > > i don't get the observations you guys seem to have, since i have

found > > the > > > > opposite to be true about this subject , > > > > going from a standard game port to an accelerated port was one of the > > > > biggest improvements ever i have made in my *** system, the CPU > > usage > > > > went to nill, and the response and presicion are impecable . > > > > i tried a usb wheel and found it to stop play and use more CPU and get > > > > confused , get lost, and basically suck compared to a controller on > the > > > > accelerated game port. > > > > i never have to calibrate my wheel , i don't get any hesitation, and > my > > > > controller in no way slows down game play, which is completely unlike > > what > > > i > > > > experienced when using a usb controller > > > > i think the fad of usb is a joke for game controllers, > > > > we have a dedicated port on the system for controllers,(joystick port)

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> > and > > > > mine is far superior to a "Universal" port of USB, which has to be > > > > interpalated into DX game controllers in software somehow, > > > > anyway i have the opposite opinion about this USB crap, I hate it > for > > my > > > > controllers , > > > > it may be alright for cameras and scanners, but not for wheels,

You've been subscribing to the wrong advice I'm afraid. Potentiometers do not make a wheel analog. Yes the potentiometers will send analog signals to the USB chip, but the USB chip in turn translates that analog information into digital bits that the computer can understand natively. So in the end... ALL USB wheels are digital. Contrary to what anyone else tells you. Now... having said that. I am assuming that you are inferring about electro-optical sensors that Microsoft utilizes(poorly I might add...). We have not decided on the positioning mechanisms in the controller themselves as yet... but it makes little difference to us (we can use either, or...). We are trying to pack as much value and performance into our controllers as possible... but we have to keep a lid on the cost/unit. Let's face it... we could build the ULTIMATE racing wheel for yas... but it would contend with the prices of TSW and ECCI (which isn't good business... let's be honest here...). We can solve where Microsoft went wrong (and have already done it...), but those electro-optical sensors are a bit pricey to be honest (one of the reasons the MSFF was among the pricier of the FF wheels). Especially when you compare it to the Pots which work equally as well performance wise (I'll have a chat with anyone who wants to debate this with cold hard data.). So... I have to bring you to a thought..... If you were to drive your real car for the same period of time, with the same force of control as your Sim wheel each day.... how many miles do you think you would have on it after 2 years? Or even 1 year for that matter. I think if you thought about it... you could see yourself taking it for an oil change or three, a new set of tires, new sparkies, a timing belt change, maybe new brakes, and maybe even a few burned out lights along the way. Now ask yourself how much THAT would cost you, and come back and tell me that a $25.00 potentiometer change after 2 years on your wheel you spent less than $200.00 US on is such a bad investment for servicing/repair. Let's face it folks... we are using "mechanically operated devices" here... They wear out... it's just a fact of life we unfortunately have to live with, and have so for a century+. I have a TSW Formula 99 sitting beside me now (that I currently use in League races) and I have changed 3 pots within a 1.5 year period. I did it without regret or angst since I know that I use it quite a bit, and it was worth it to shell out the $75.00 to keep it happy. I considered it necessary servicing after prolonged beating. I cannot give you a firm answer as far as what will be used in PDPI controllers... but we will do our best to make sure it lasts as long as the performance is acceptable by standard. We are certainly looking into the electro-optical sensors... but we want everyone to be able to afford this wheel's price tag at the retail shops. Time and budget crunching will tell after all is said and done during design. I will say this though (I have to....). We will not put a product out there that will break 6 months into use. We already have a team of beta testers from around the world for numerous controllers we are working on, and they will be given the instructions; "Beat the Snot out of it... and tell us when/where it breaks, and the amount of force you estimate you used for a periodical/prolonged length of time. After that... we want to know your thoughts on precision... although we are pretty sure we know already being sim fanatics ourselves." After all that is finished... I am personally the last person to give the controllers the once over... and trust me... I'm a neurotically picky buggar as my reviews of the past may have shown. If I find something wrong with it... it gets fixed (i.e.... expect longer cords than you probably need, clamping that can incorporate keyboard trays, a profile that doesn't block the view to the lower portion of the monitor, pedal travel that is intuitive and smooth, no notchiness in the wheel mechanical or resolution wise [obviously], etc.). This wheel will be given the 100 times over by Simulation freaks and fanatics and will not go to market until it gets a 100% mark. Please keep in mind that I am building this wheel for myself... not you <jk>. We will treat EVERY review after release as a beta test, and if there is for some unknown reason a fault that slipped through the intricate web of approval... we will fix it immediately (in mid manufacturing if we must...) and explore possibilities to have the faulty merchandise brought up to par on the newer version. Take that to the bank... save this message and hold me to it (although you won't have to... I'll do that myself), and see what servicing is REALLY about (should it require it for some unknown reason as I said). Hope that explains my mandate on quality control for PDPI. Cheers, Shumi > >It's not a card..... We are going to make joysticks, wheels, etc. We will do

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> >the whole unit... do it the way you guys want it... and do it better than > >the rest. Simple. > >You should start to see our products arrive in the beginning of Q2 2000. > <snip> > What about longevity. I've heard that the PDPI doesn't support digital > at the moment and I'm hoping that digital controllers will be more > longer lasting than the current crop of ones that use pots. Will your > new controllers be digital and, if not, what are the comparisons between > digital and non-digital controllers longevity-wise? > -- > Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) > No person's opinions can be said to be > more correct than another's, because each is > the sole judge of his or her own experience.

For the record.... Andy at ECCI said "Finally... someone came out with a USB interface worthy of my wheel... I shoulda known it would've been from you guys.... how do we get it in?" If Andy likes it... you know it's going to be hot. He's MORE picky than I am :) Cheers, Shumi

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> Good news. > BTW, I didn't say it was imprecise, I just said I'd love higher resolution > (i.e., even higher resolution). > THM > > Talking to ECCI about a "PDPI Kit" that you will be able to buy > exclusively > > for the ECCI wheels. We are also talking to TSW about producing the same > > kits. Basically, you remove the SG innards, and replace it with USB > innards. > > Sounds complicated.... but it's really not if you've every cracked

either

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> of > > the two wheels open. > > Nothing firm yet.... but we are in discussions. > > As for a "higher resolution L4"... we are also considering this, and the > new > > design would be in a PCI configuration if we decided to move forward on > it. > > I'm not going to give out numbers... but it would be the equivalent to

our > > USB resolutions. I'll keep you posted on it.... but be aware that this > > project would have to take a back seat to others we are currently involved

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> > in. > > Cheers, > > Shumi > > P.S. 256 positioning resolution accounts for every degree of turn when > using > > the L4. Furthermore... you have a patented filtering system to remove

the > > jitter (we will use the same in USB configs.), and we also incorporate > what > > we call "hysteresis". This hysteresis theoretically gives you a 512 > > positioning resolution since it can differentiate down to half of a > > positioning resolution unit. Meaning... you have 256 resolution... but it > > doesn't move over to the unit beside it until it has sensed a wheel travel

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> > of .5 degrees. In fact this is what makes us so precise. Other wheels > > (particularly USB) move to the next available unit (sometimes 6-10 steps > > over), as soon as the wheel is moved even slightly beyond the unit. > Meaning > > you get "overshoots" in the positioning (which many have experienced on > this > > NG). We don't get that because of our hysteresis. So in ending... I'm

not > > sure why you think it's imprecise... it's the best you can buy in this day > > and age, and I'll pay $100.00 US to anyone who can show me something that

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> > does better currently or past. > > > Ok Shumi, controllers, etc. are in the works, but is a newer higher > > > resolution version of the L4, USB or otherwise, in the works? My ECCI > is > > > connected to an L4, and would love higher resolution. > > > THM > > > > Thank you..... you have just completely backed up what I have been > > saying > > > > all along. The current implementations of USB in controllers today

are

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> > > > GARBAGE. They apparently have NO idea what they are doing, and why > > should > > > > they.... they have been designing game controllers for the standard > > > gameport > > > > in basic analog configurations, and left the interfacing > > responsibilities > > > to > > > > the sound card companies and the gamecard companies. > > > > You'll actually find that most USB controllers out there are using > > > "default > > > > USB" algorithms that are supplied by the chip manufacturers (some > decide > > > to > > > > get creative and do some minor tweaks such as cutting into the > > positioning > > > > resolution to stabilize the jitter). Then we get into FF USB and we > find > > > out > > > > that all are using the Immersion Chip.... the only thing is.... > > Immersion > > > > WILL NOT allow the algorithms to be altered. They will not even > release > > it > > > > to you in code format. So all FF controllers are stuck with > Immersion's > > > > algorithm that is specialized towards FF and NOT positioning. > > > > We (PDPI) are taking a COMPLETELY different approach and have the > > > advantage > > > > of being a "interface company" before we become a controller

company. > We > > > are > > > > fully aware of the intricacies of USB design (since it's our field) > and > > > have > > > > made extraordinary advancements in the ways of proprietary algorithms

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> > that > > > > incorporate all of the features that made the L4 such a great > interface. > > > The > > > > other guys are quite a ways back from us.... and that's because we > have > > > been > > > > engaged in interface R/D exclusively since 1993. Frankly.... we are > > years > > > > ahead and the other guys told/know it. > > > > We are confident that you will be extremely impressed with our > > > > implementations. ECCI and TSW are scratching at the door to license

it > > and > > > > have been hesitant to enter into USB because of the brutal > > implementations > > > > to date. They saw our, and had to have it. > > > > I'm not going to go into the intricacies of the technology on here...

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> > the > > > > competition will have to wait for our arrival in the marketplace > before > > > they > > > > see what we have done to leave them in the dust. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Shumi > > > > > i don't get the observations you guys seem to have, since i have > found > > > the > > > > > opposite to be true about this subject , > > > > > going from a standard game port to an accelerated port was one of > the > > > > > biggest improvements ever i have made in my *** system, the

CPU > > > usage > > > > > went to nill, and the response and presicion are impecable . > > > > > i tried a usb wheel and found it to stop play and use more CPU and > get > > > > > confused , get lost, and basically suck compared to a controller on > > the > > > > > accelerated game port. > > > > > i never have to calibrate my wheel , i don't get any hesitation, and

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> > my > > > > > controller in no way slows down game play, which is completely > unlike > > > what > > > > i > > > > > experienced when using a usb controller > > > > > i think the fad of usb is a joke for game controllers, > > > > > we have a dedicated port on the system for controllers,(joystick > port) > > > and > > > > > mine is far superior to a "Universal" port of USB, which has to

be > > > > > interpalated into DX game controllers in software somehow, > > > > > anyway i have the opposite opinion about this USB crap, I hate it > > for > > > my > > > > > controllers , > > > > > it may be alright for cameras and scanners, but not for wheels,

No, it's not a problem in GPL, I've won an F3 online league with it :o), and I'm currently top three in both an F2 online league and an F3 online league... /Chrille, but if I had to find something to improve on the PDPI card, it would be resolution...

My eyes started to water :o))) /Chrille > We have increased the positioning resolution "exponentially" over the L4 > (which still kicks ass over current USB implementations). How does "accuracy

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> to within 1/5th of a degree of turn on a 230 radius" sound to you? > Cheers, > Shumi > > Exciting stuff :o). Can I make a wish??? Okay, I'll do it anyway. I'm

very > > pleased with my current PDPI card and just love the fact that I never have > > to recalibrate. I can only think of one improvement, the resolution, so I

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> > hope the USB card has a higher resolution. Has it, has it :o)? > > /Chrille, have two puters, so of course I have two PDPI cards ;o) > > > As a the newly appointed "Director of Marketing & Business

Development" > at > > > PDPI, I have first hand knowledge of this subject since I have looked > into > > > it quite deeply. > > > There are a number of factors that caused the popularity of the PDPI L4 > to > > > not reach it's full potential. > > > First we have to look at the timing of the card's entry into the > > > marketplace. It was launched in 1998 during a global decline in gamecard > > > sales. The most obvious factor governing this decline was the > introduction > > > of USB and it's now full support by the operating system (Win 98). This > > > caused a lot of controller manufacturers to simply look at the USB port > as > > > the means of connection since Microsoft did a good job marketing it > > > (although it has a lot of advantages as a whole, and can be much more in > > > performance should it be implemented correctly). > > > The popularity of FF has also been a factor. The PDPI L4 only supports > > > "analog" controllers, and FF controllers typically send their signals in > a > > > native digital format that the L4 does not comprehend coming in. In fact

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> > > most FF controller manufacturers use the USB port (MSFF being the last > to > > > make the change over). > > > Then we have the ugly factor that has been the main reason for my > > > appointment. Quite frankly.... there are too many people who do not > > > understand what the Standard Gameport does to your system. It taxes it > > > through the nose (regardless of CPU power), and is extremely

susceptible

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> > to > > > jitter. They simply don't realize that it was invent and remained > > unchanged > > > since 1981! USB has changed a lot of the taxation issues but not > > effectively > > > solved the more important jitter issue. So in the end it is public > > ignorance > > > (in a kind meaning of the word) that has doomed the achievement of > > potential > > > sales/popularity for the L4. > > > Another important factor is the admitted overall lack of marketing of > the > > > product. PDPI is a very small company who happen to currently

specialize > > in > > > interface technologies. However, we do not possess some of the > "marketing > > > funds" these game controller companies and soundcard companies do. As > the > > > guy who now decides where the currently limited marketing dough goes, I

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> > can > > > tell you that we will not be focusing on the L4 in terms of marketing. > We > > > have bigger things in the works and the game controller industry will > > never > > > be the same after we initiate our plans. > > > The past 7 months of my tenure has been to find an investor who can > > realize > > > our potential. I finally found it and we are in the process of closing > the > > > deal (should be done by mid-January). This will make PDPI a fully > > > operational game controller manufacturer with the ability to > mass-produce > > > (which is the key to lower per-unit costs to the end-user). > > > This means we will inititate our USB interface that we have completed > R&D > > > on. We have done for USB what we did for the gameport. We have carried > > over > > > ALL of the functions of the L4 that still makes it superior to USB in > it's > > > currently found configurations, and adapted it to USB. Meaning... we

can > > > tackle the Jitter issue the exact same way we did on the L4. Meaning...

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> we > > > can remove the jitter, which means we do not have to cut into the > > > positioning resolution to combat it. We can read a "full positioning > > > resolution spectrum" without having to worry about Jitter. Which means > we > > > already have an advantage over other configurations in regards to > > precision > > > and performance. > > > Then we factor in the mandate that I am currently exercising. We are > > > listening to YOU, designing for YOU, and have been paying very close > > > attention to NGs like this one (among others) for answers to our

design > > > questions... the end result should be a controller for each genre that > is > > > custom designed to meet the enthusiasts and leisure users alike. With an

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> > > affordable price tag to boot. We know what's wrong with the other > > > wheels/sticks... and will make sure we avoid the same mistakes whilst > > adding > > > a few of our own bonuses to boot. > > > We will be on store shelves, and available around the world in such > retail > > > outlets. The products will be accessible, and the company will be

doing > > it's > > > best to give back to the Sim Communities in mainy forms (other than just

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> > > making a good controller...). > > > Rest assured Karl..... you will be hearing LOTS about us very soon :) > > > Cheers, > > > Shumi > > > PDPI > > > > It seems that this gamecard has been out for over a year, and it is

a

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> > > > MASSIVE improvement for sim racing. (read all the reviews). > > > > Its pretty cheap now, so why do people stick to the jitter and > slowness > > of > > > > the traditional gameports ? > > > > I always found games like INDYCAR 2 and some other racesims

virtually > > > > undrivable on streetcircuits because the lack of precision with my T2

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> > > wheel > > > > (even with new pots and mega-hardware). GP2 was the only game that > > really > > > > responded fast to gameport input. > > > > U guys raceing ICR2 for years: just tell me how you did it? > > > > I raced NASCAR 2 and INDYCAR2 on the ovals a lot, but street

circuits > > and > > > > even road circuits were unrealistically hard because of slow gameport

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> > > input. > > > > (don't give me this 'racecars are hard to control nonsense' .. I > know!) > > > > Even at slow speeds the cars react VERY slow.. > > > > Still there have been racing leagues out there for ICR2 all this > > time.... > > > > Amasing.

Is it better to run GPL with or without ff.I have a sidewinder ff&pedals.Will your new wheel be ff.

Well Joe.... that is a very subjective question. Some like FF... some don't. I'll let the individual preferences prevail in this debate. We WILL have a FF wheel, and will be exploring whether we will make 2 versions (FF & Non-FF), or whether we will make one with the ability to turn off the FF effects upon choice. We have to make an engineering miracle to ensure that notchiness is not prevalent in the FF wheel without FF turned on... and will have a better idea of our intentions as we accept/decline design ideas. I can keep you posted on this as development continues. Cheers, Shumi