Historic GPL Hyper Stimulators

Pictures of the Lotus, Eagle, and Brabham Historic Hyper Stimulators for GPL now available on my web site www.hyperstimcanada.com. -- Rory S. Brown Canadian Distributor for Hyper Stimulator "The World's Best Racing Car Simulators" Visit www.hyperstimcanada.com Home Designed Computers by Rory "Custom Computers for your needs!" Visit www.directcomputers.com Unit 7 - 9947 - 151 Street Surrey, BC Canada V3R 9A1 Phone 604-671-5997 Fax 604-930-9983 Official Supplier of Computers & Hyper Stimulators to: the Players Racing Simulator Challenge Tour and The Kool Racing Challenge Tour Visit www.players-racing.com

Hey Rory, When are we going to get our own Western Canada Hyper Stimulator GPL Challenge ?

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>Pictures of the Lotus, Eagle, and Brabham Historic Hyper Stimulators for GPL >now available on my web site www.hyperstimcanada.com. >-- >Rory S. Brown >Canadian Distributor for Hyper Stimulator >"The World's Best Racing Car Simulators" >Visit www.hyperstimcanada.com >Home Designed Computers by Rory >"Custom Computers for your needs!" >Visit www.directcomputers.com >Unit 7 - 9947 - 151 Street >Surrey, BC Canada V3R 9A1 >Phone 604-671-5997 >Fax 604-930-9983 >Official Supplier of Computers & Hyper Stimulators to: >the Players Racing Simulator Challenge Tour and >The Kool Racing Challenge Tour >Visit www.players-racing.com

-- Don Scurlock Vancouver,B.C.

Don, It depends on how much support you and others in the Vancouver area will support the Hyper Stimulator Race and Retail Centre I hope to open in the first quarter of 2000. What type of support do you think there is for a Race and Retail Centre in Vancouver? Rory -- > Organization: Your Company > Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators > Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 19:35:41 GMT > Subject: Re: Historic GPL Hyper Stimulators > Hey Rory, > When are we going to get our own Western Canada Hyper Stimulator GPL > Challenge ? >> Pictures of the Lotus, Eagle, and Brabham Historic Hyper Stimulators for GPL >> now available on my web site www.hyperstimcanada.com. >> -- >> Rory S. Brown >> Canadian Distributor for Hyper Stimulator >> "The World's Best Racing Car Simulators" >> Visit www.hyperstimcanada.com >> Home Designed Computers by Rory >> "Custom Computers for your needs!" >> Visit www.directcomputers.com >> Unit 7 - 9947 - 151 Street >> Surrey, BC Canada V3R 9A1 >> Phone 604-671-5997 >> Fax 604-930-9983 >> Official Supplier of Computers & Hyper Stimulators to: >> the Players Racing Simulator Challenge Tour and >> The Kool Racing Challenge Tour >> Visit www.players-racing.com > -- > Don Scurlock > Vancouver,B.C.

Well Rory I can assure of at least one person. I would come weekly if a regular schedule were established. After all it's only a 3 hr drive...do you have a spare bed? John Moore

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> Don, > It depends on how much support you and others in the Vancouver area will > support the Hyper Stimulator Race and Retail Centre I hope to open in the > first quarter of 2000. What type of support do you think there is for a > Race and Retail Centre in Vancouver? > Rory > -- > > Organization: Your Company > > Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators > > Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 19:35:41 GMT > > Subject: Re: Historic GPL Hyper Stimulators > > Hey Rory, > > When are we going to get our own Western Canada Hyper Stimulator GPL > > Challenge ? > >> Pictures of the Lotus, Eagle, and Brabham Historic Hyper Stimulators for GPL > >> now available on my web site www.hyperstimcanada.com. > >> -- > >> Rory S. Brown > >> Canadian Distributor for Hyper Stimulator > >> "The World's Best Racing Car Simulators" > >> Visit www.hyperstimcanada.com > >> Home Designed Computers by Rory > >> "Custom Computers for your needs!" > >> Visit www.directcomputers.com > >> Unit 7 - 9947 - 151 Street > >> Surrey, BC Canada V3R 9A1 > >> Phone 604-671-5997 > >> Fax 604-930-9983 > >> Official Supplier of Computers & Hyper Stimulators to: > >> the Players Racing Simulator Challenge Tour and > >> The Kool Racing Challenge Tour > >> Visit www.players-racing.com > > -- > > Don Scurlock > > Vancouver,B.C.

Ahhhhh shoot.... Rory..... give me a Lotus HS to keep and y'all can sleep at my place for the whole weekend ;) LOL your friend, Shumi http://www.rs2league.com > Well Rory I can assure of at least one person. I would come weekly if a regular > schedule were established. After all it's only a 3 hr drive...do you have a spare

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> bed? > John Moore > > Don, > > It depends on how much support you and others in the Vancouver area will > > support the Hyper Stimulator Race and Retail Centre I hope to open in

the

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> > first quarter of 2000. What type of support do you think there is for a > > Race and Retail Centre in Vancouver? > > Rory > > -- > > > Organization: Your Company > > > Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators > > > Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 19:35:41 GMT > > > Subject: Re: Historic GPL Hyper Stimulators > > > Hey Rory, > > > When are we going to get our own Western Canada Hyper Stimulator GPL > > > Challenge ? > > >> Pictures of the Lotus, Eagle, and Brabham Historic Hyper Stimulators

for GPL

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> > >> now available on my web site www.hyperstimcanada.com. > > >> -- > > >> Rory S. Brown > > >> Canadian Distributor for Hyper Stimulator > > >> "The World's Best Racing Car Simulators" > > >> Visit www.hyperstimcanada.com > > >> Home Designed Computers by Rory > > >> "Custom Computers for your needs!" > > >> Visit www.directcomputers.com > > >> Unit 7 - 9947 - 151 Street > > >> Surrey, BC Canada V3R 9A1 > > >> Phone 604-671-5997 > > >> Fax 604-930-9983 > > >> Official Supplier of Computers & Hyper Stimulators to: > > >> the Players Racing Simulator Challenge Tour and > > >> The Kool Racing Challenge Tour > > >> Visit www.players-racing.com > > > -- > > > Don Scurlock > > > Vancouver,B.C.

I'd drive up from Seattle ... you bet. TB

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>Don, >It depends on how much support you and others in the Vancouver area will >support the Hyper Stimulator Race and Retail Centre I hope to open in the >first quarter of 2000. What type of support do you think there is for a >Race and Retail Centre in Vancouver? >Rory >-- >> Organization: Your Company >> Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators >> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 19:35:41 GMT >> Subject: Re: Historic GPL Hyper Stimulators >> Hey Rory, >> When are we going to get our own Western Canada Hyper Stimulator GPL >> Challenge ? >>> Pictures of the Lotus, Eagle, and Brabham Historic Hyper Stimulators for

GPL

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>>> now available on my web site www.hyperstimcanada.com. >>> -- >>> Rory S. Brown >>> Canadian Distributor for Hyper Stimulator >>> "The World's Best Racing Car Simulators" >>> Visit www.hyperstimcanada.com >>> Home Designed Computers by Rory >>> "Custom Computers for your needs!" >>> Visit www.directcomputers.com >>> Unit 7 - 9947 - 151 Street >>> Surrey, BC Canada V3R 9A1 >>> Phone 604-671-5997 >>> Fax 604-930-9983 >>> Official Supplier of Computers & Hyper Stimulators to: >>> the Players Racing Simulator Challenge Tour and >>> The Kool Racing Challenge Tour >>> Visit www.players-racing.com >> -- >> Don Scurlock >> Vancouver,B.C.

Rory, Great idea ! It's success will depend on it's focus. Strictly retail sales of Hyper Stimulators is pretty limited and would not justify the overhead. What I think would have potential is a competition venue for all the frustrated race car drivers there are in the Vancouver area. Maybe some kind of partnership with the F440 guys ? They already have the building. http://www.f440.com/ Whatever you do, keep us informed and feel free to bounce ideas if me. -- Don Scurlock Vancouver,B.C.

Don, The focus would be on racing not the sales of Hyper Stimulators. I probably would have to charge between $15 to $25 Canadian per hour of use to make it work. Hours of operation would be something like 5pm to 11pm? It would involve having 7 Hyper Stimulators. I talked to one of the owners of F440 before but my experience with him was all talk no action and he was too greedy. I'm not interested in making a ton of money, just a decent living doing something I can enjoy doing. It is very possible that I may go into partnership with Sprite Computers www.spritecomp.com which is a block away from the Gateway Skytrain station in Surrey, corner of 108th and King George Hwy. We might split his store in half. He has a separate entrance not being used. What do you think, would you or others come? Rory

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> Organization: Your Company > Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators > Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 19:28:42 GMT > Subject: Re: Historic GPL Hyper Stimulators > Rory, > Great idea ! It's success will depend on it's focus. Strictly retail > sales of Hyper Stimulators is pretty limited and would not justify > the overhead. What I think would have potential is a competition venue for all > the frustrated race car drivers there are in the Vancouver area. Maybe some > kind of partnership with the F440 guys ? They already have the building. > http://www.f440.com/ > Whatever you do, keep us informed and feel free to bounce ideas if me. >> Don, >> It depends on how much support you and others in the Vancouver area will >> support the Hyper Stimulator Race and Retail Centre I hope to open in the >> first quarter of 2000. What type of support do you think there is for a >> Race and Retail Centre in Vancouver? >> Rory > -- > Don Scurlock > Vancouver,B.C.

Dear Rory S. Brown, how far is the development of the Force feedback version, and when (if) will it be released (eg, march, late summer, before the end of 2000, asap ???). kind regards, Pascal.

No offense, but you are 90% wrong. > My view is that No Force Feedback is better than Bad Force Feedback. There is the 10% where you are right. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. The FF in GPL allows more consistent driving over the length of a race. It allows more consistent control in traffic. If your benchmark is 'who can do the fastest hotlap', non-FF will probably win, because is allows the driver to ignore some basic realities that are true in a real car. If your goal is realism, GPL FF on several currently-available wheels wins hands-down. BTW, I'm no slouch when it comes to GPL, and I have easily surpassed my non-FF lap times with FF on an ACT Labs Force RS wheel. The place where FF really shines, though, is working through traffic, where laps are not simple drive- by-the-numbers rote memorization. Quicker hotlaps, or quicker (more consistent) race performance? I'm sure you guys will do the hardware side as well as it can be done. Why don't you do it now? -- Pat Dotson http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

My view is that No Force Feedback is better than Bad Force Feedback. At this point there is absolutely no reason to have force feedback in its current state. At this time, Force Feedback is strickly for the arcade type feeling. Force Feedback is not able to aid you to achieve a faster time in GPL (the only true racing simulation software) so no point in pursuing it at this time. The goal of force feedback should be to give you a realistic feeling for achieving quicker times. When we work with a software company to produce realistic force feedback; you can be assured that you will be able to retrofit it to your Hyper Stimulator Chassis. Therefore your investment in a Hyper Stimulator won't be wasted just like our customers who are able to add the sequential shifter to thier current Hyper Stimulator. -- Rory S. Brown Canadian Distributor for Hyper Stimulator "The World's Best Racing Car Simulators" Visit www.hyperstimcanada.com Home Designed Computers by Rory "Custom Computers for your needs!" Visit www.directcomputers.com Unit 7 - 9947 - 151 Street Surrey, BC Canada V3R 9A1 Phone 604-671-5997 Fax 604-930-9983 Official Supplier of Computers & Hyper Stimulators to: the Players Racing Simulator Challenge Tour and The Kool Racing Challenge Tour Visit www.players-racing.com > Dear Rory S. Brown, how far is the development of the Force feedback > version, and when (if) will it be released (eg, march, late summer, before > the end of 2000, asap ???). > kind regards, > Pascal.

Yeah! Ditto what Pat said! Besides, you aren't going to sell many $3000 Hyperstimulators to hotlappers using joysticks in arcade view. If you want to sell your products, market towards the people who prefer a realistic feeling of immersion. Many of us in that category could not give up force feedback. "Pat Dotson" wrote

Pat, I appreciate your reply and respectfully disagree, though you make some valid points. I have driven GPL with force feedback with the Logitech Wheel and it doesn't even come close to the feeling I get from sitting in the Hyper Stimulator with the chassis shaker, 12 programmable button steering wheel, form fitted seat, and firm brake pedal. I hope that some day you will have the opportunity to use your obvious skills to work (checked your web site) by driving a Hyper Stimulator for a whole week or so. It is unfortunate the pricing of the Hyper Stimulator means that few people will get the opportunity to own a Hyper Stimulator. There is a reason it is priced like it is: Quality. Just ask any owner of a Hyper Stimulator if it is worth the price. You can't make a mistake investing in Quality! We will do force feedback when we determine it is at the correct stage of development. Please remember, the Hyper Stimulator is designed to be upgradeable so the investment is never lost. We even had a H Box shifter ready to go for GPL but since Papyrus didn't include this feature in the patch, as they where supposed to do, no point in doing it yet. Again, Thanks for your input. -- Rory S. Brown Canadian Distributor for Hyper Stimulator "The World's Best Racing Car Simulators" Visit www.hyperstimcanada.com Home Designed Computers by Rory "Custom Computers for your needs!" Visit www.directcomputers.com Unit 7 - 9947 - 151 Street Surrey, BC Canada V3R 9A1 Phone 604-671-5997 Fax 604-930-9983 Official Supplier of Computers & Hyper Stimulators to: the Players Racing Simulator Challenge Tour and The Kool Racing Challenge Tour Visit www.players-racing.com > No offense, but you are 90% wrong. > > My view is that No Force Feedback is better than Bad Force Feedback. > There is the 10% where you are right. > > At > > this point there is absolutely no reason to have force feedback in its > > current state. > Wrong. > > At this time, Force Feedback is strickly for the arcade type > > feeling. > Wrong. > >Force Feedback is not able to aid you to achieve a faster time in > > GPL (the only true racing simulation software) so no point in pursuing it at > > this time. > Wrong. The FF in GPL allows more consistent driving > over the > length of a race. It allows more consistent control in > traffic. > If your benchmark is 'who can do the fastest hotlap', > non-FF > will probably win, because is allows the driver to > ignore some > basic realities that are true in a real car. If your > goal > is realism, GPL FF on several currently-available > wheels wins > hands-down. > BTW, I'm no slouch when it comes to GPL, and I have > easily > surpassed my non-FF lap times with FF on an ACT Labs > Force > RS wheel. The place where FF really shines, though, is > working through traffic, where laps are not simple > drive- > by-the-numbers rote memorization. > >The goal of force feedback should be to give you a realistic > > feeling for achieving quicker times. > Quicker hotlaps, or quicker (more consistent) race > performance? > > When we work with a software company > > to produce realistic force feedback; you can be assured that you will be > > able to retrofit it to your Hyper Stimulator Chassis. Therefore your > > investment in a Hyper Stimulator won't be wasted just like our customers who > > are able to add the sequential shifter to thier current Hyper Stimulator. > I'm sure you guys will do the hardware side as well as > it can > be done. Why don't you do it now? > -- > Pat Dotson > http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

Depends on ppl. I am faster with FF, except in Monaco, where you sometimes "have to" make "too" fast movements. If I do too fast steering move(to right), my MSFF looses calibration. But in all 10 other tracks, I've beaten my old Lotus times with Brabham and FF. You are right that bad FF is worse than no FF, but IMO FF _in my settings_ is loadsa better than no FF. Also Pat, there you are wrong that FF should make your times better, that's not true, it just should make driver to feel the grip, nothing else and that's what it does. Maybe it's not _exactly_ like it's in real life, but it's there. I rather feel the grip somehow in my hands than not at all. Also Rory is right that to most ppl FF gives better control, because most of the ppl can't control grip well without any physical feedback, they can't make precise actions based in just horizontal screen movements. Maybe you can do it, but most ppl doesn't.

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> No offense, but you are 90% wrong. > > My view is that No Force Feedback is better than Bad Force Feedback. > There is the 10% where you are right. > > At > > this point there is absolutely no reason to have force feedback in its > > current state. > Wrong. > > At this time, Force Feedback is strickly for the arcade type > > feeling. > Wrong. > >Force Feedback is not able to aid you to achieve a faster time in > > GPL (the only true racing simulation software) so no point in pursuing

it at

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> > this time. > Wrong. The FF in GPL allows more consistent driving > over the > length of a race. It allows more consistent control in > traffic. > If your benchmark is 'who can do the fastest hotlap', > non-FF > will probably win, because is allows the driver to > ignore some > basic realities that are true in a real car. If your > goal > is realism, GPL FF on several currently-available > wheels wins > hands-down. > BTW, I'm no slouch when it comes to GPL, and I have > easily > surpassed my non-FF lap times with FF on an ACT Labs > Force > RS wheel. The place where FF really shines, though, is > working through traffic, where laps are not simple > drive- > by-the-numbers rote memorization. > >The goal of force feedback should be to give you a realistic > > feeling for achieving quicker times. > Quicker hotlaps, or quicker (more consistent) race > performance? > > When we work with a software company > > to produce realistic force feedback; you can be assured that you will be > > able to retrofit it to your Hyper Stimulator Chassis. Therefore your > > investment in a Hyper Stimulator won't be wasted just like our customers

who > > are able to add the sequential shifter to thier current Hyper Stimulator.

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> I'm sure you guys will do the hardware side as well as > it can > be done. Why don't you do it now? > -- > Pat Dotson > http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

Rory- I have to agree with Pat on this one. A good FF wheel (I use the Logitech) is far better than a passive wheel. I'm faster and more consistent in GPL with a well set up Logitech FF wheel than with a passive wheel, even a passive wheel which is much better in basic quality than the Logitech (I've tried many passive wheels, including ECCI, TSW, and my own custom wheel). I've been racing GPL for almost two years now, and with a passive wheel I'd reached a plateau in terms of speed. After going to a FF wheel, I'm going faster everywhere, and my ability to develop setups, and detect the quality of a setup change, is much improved. I get better race results too. It took some time (about two weeks) to adjust to the FF wheel, but after that, there's no going back. I tried going back to my (carefully crafted, very precise, very high quality) custom passive wheel recently, and it absolutely sucked compared to the LogiFF. BTW, your LWFF to Hyper Stim comparison is not really valid; you're comparing apples to oranges. Along with a topnotch passive wheel, you're comparing great pedals and an ensemble of components which creates a very immersive environment against a FF wheel operating in the context of a much less immersive environment. Why don't you bolt a Logitech FF wheel to a Hyper Stimulator in place of its HS-built wheel? Keep the Hyper Stim's pedals (they are sure to be better than the Logitech's) and just configure in GPL to use the Logi wheel instead of the HS's. (Details on my FF page at http://simracing.com/alison/gpl/force.htm (BTW, this is a minor point, but note that Logitech's software allows you to assign a shift function to one of the six paddles and buttons, so you can have, in effect, 11 buttons on the LogiFF.) Now drive GPL in this setup (and only this setup) every day for an hour, for two weeks. Then put the HS wheel back in place of the LogiFF. Yes, the LogiFF wheel is a cheapo plastic piece of ***compared to the HS wheel. Yes, it uses (yuck!) nylon bearings. Yes, its wheel wobbles because the shaft is too short and because of the play in the nylon bearings. Yes, its pot probably cost 10% of the cost of the pot in the HS. But I'm betting that you will want to put it back onto the HS after spending two weeks with it, and then comparing the passive wheel experience to the Force-enabled experience. Better still, I'm hoping that you'll want to develop your own FF wheel to put in the HS. If the HS experience is so great - and I'm sure it is - then imagine how great it would be when enhanced with a really good FF implementation. I'm sure that with not a whole lot of effort, you could work up an adaptation for the Immersion unit used in the Act Labs Force RS that would absolutely rock. The Immersion unit used in the Force RS is much better than the one used in the Logitech Wingman FF. It has a much larger, more powerful motor, toothed belt reduction (vs. cables in the Logi), and ball bearings. As far as I can tell, there's only one thing wrong with that Immersion unit (excessive friction induced by belts that are too tight). A company with your resources could surely develop a fix (adjustable or spring-loaded tensioning idlers). I bet you could do it in a couple of days. Pick up a Force RS for $70 and take it apart and you'll see what I mean. You might even use the RS's internal and electronic bits for your prototype. About a year ago, I wrote to a very high-end wheel manufacturer (let's call them "Acme") asking why they didn't provide paddles on their wheels. They explained that they were committed to providing the absolute best racing experience for their customers, and they said paddles aren't as good or as fast as thumb buttons (conveniently ignoring the fact that real F1 teams had been using paddle shifters for years). I wrote back and pointed out that I had put $5 microswitches on the back of my TM wheel, and these worked just as fast as the thumb buttons on my friend's "Acme" wheel and were ergonomically far superior. I don't know if my email had any impact, but a few months later, "Acme" began offering paddles on their wheels. The m***of that story is that sometimes the people who make the very best stuff can be temporarily blinded to the significance of worthwhile innovations by the position of technical superiority in which their own lofty talents and commitment to excellence have placed them. I say it's time for you and Hyper Stimulator to move into the 21st century, Rory. <grin> Alison On Thu, 30 Dec 1999 09:18:01 GMT, "Rory S. Brown"

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>Pat, >I appreciate your reply and respectfully disagree, though you make some >valid points. I have driven GPL with force feedback with the Logitech Wheel >and it doesn't even come close to the feeling I get from sitting in the >Hyper Stimulator with the chassis shaker, 12 programmable button steering >wheel, form fitted seat, and firm brake pedal. I hope that some day you >will have the opportunity to use your obvious skills to work (checked your >web site) by driving a Hyper Stimulator for a whole week or so. It is >unfortunate the pricing of the Hyper Stimulator means that few people will >get the opportunity to own a Hyper Stimulator. There is a reason it is >priced like it is: Quality. Just ask any owner of a Hyper Stimulator if it >is worth the price. You can't make a mistake investing in Quality! >We will do force feedback when we determine it is at the correct stage of >development. Please remember, the Hyper Stimulator is designed to be >upgradeable so the investment is never lost. We even had a H Box shifter >ready to go for GPL but since Papyrus didn't include this feature in the >patch, as they where supposed to do, no point in doing it yet. >Again, Thanks for your input.

Alison Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me. [link lost in import]

Alison, Thanks for your comments. Actually, the first thing I did was to try to make the Logitech wheel fit in the Hyper, but it doesn't work out. All I can say about Force Feedback is that we will do it when the software technology is where we want it to be. Again, the Hyper Stimulator is designed to be upgradeable so it in no way is it a disadvantage to own a Hyper. Hyper Stimulator customers will be able to add Force Feedback later on. I do think implied or expressed in Pat's message what offered the best overall racing simulation experience and frankly, I truly believe we offer that. I hope get the chance to spend some time behind a Hyper Stimulator Historic Model some day. Thanks for your comments. They are always appreciated. Now answer the trivial question I posted today. Don't answer it too quickly if you know the answer. Let the group guess awhile. You could email me if you want your answer. -- Rory S. Brown Canadian Distributor for Hyper Stimulator "The World's Best Racing Car Simulators" Visit www.hyperstimcanada.com Home Designed Computers by Rory "Custom Computers for your needs!" Visit www.directcomputers.com Unit 7 - 9947 - 151 Street Surrey, BC Canada V3R 9A1 Phone 604-671-5997 Fax 604-930-9983 Official Supplier of Computers & Hyper Stimulators to: the Players Racing Simulator Challenge Tour and The Kool Racing Challenge Tour Visit www.players-racing.com > Rory- > I have to agree with Pat on this one. A good FF wheel (I use the > Logitech) is far better than a passive wheel. I'm faster and more > consistent in GPL with a well set up Logitech FF wheel than with a > passive wheel, even a passive wheel which is much better in basic > quality than the Logitech (I've tried many passive wheels, including > ECCI, TSW, and my own custom wheel). > I've been racing GPL for almost two years now, and with a passive wheel > I'd reached a plateau in terms of speed. After going to a FF wheel, I'm > going faster everywhere, and my ability to develop setups, and detect > the quality of a setup change, is much improved. I get better race > results too. > It took some time (about two weeks) to adjust to the FF wheel, but after > that, there's no going back. I tried going back to my (carefully > crafted, very precise, very high quality) custom passive wheel recently, > and it absolutely sucked compared to the LogiFF. > BTW, your LWFF to Hyper Stim comparison is not really valid; you're > comparing apples to oranges. Along with a topnotch passive wheel, > you're comparing great pedals and an ensemble of components which > creates a very immersive environment against a FF wheel operating in the > context of a much less immersive environment. > Why don't you bolt a Logitech FF wheel to a Hyper Stimulator in place of > its HS-built wheel? Keep the Hyper Stim's pedals (they are sure to be > better than the Logitech's) and just configure in GPL to use the Logi > wheel instead of the HS's. (Details on my FF page at > http://simracing.com/alison/gpl/force.htm > (BTW, this is a minor point, but note that Logitech's software allows > you to assign a shift function to one of the six paddles and buttons, so > you can have, in effect, 11 buttons on the LogiFF.) > Now drive GPL in this setup (and only this setup) every day for an hour, > for two weeks. Then put the HS wheel back in place of the LogiFF. > Yes, the LogiFF wheel is a cheapo plastic piece of ***compared to the > HS wheel. Yes, it uses (yuck!) nylon bearings. Yes, its wheel wobbles > because the shaft is too short and because of the play in the nylon > bearings. Yes, its pot probably cost 10% of the cost of the pot in the > HS. > But I'm betting that you will want to put it back onto the HS after > spending two weeks with it, and then comparing the passive wheel > experience to the Force-enabled experience. > Better still, I'm hoping that you'll want to develop your own FF wheel > to put in the HS. If the HS experience is so great - and I'm sure it is > - then imagine how great it would be when enhanced with a really good FF > implementation. > I'm sure that with not a whole lot of effort, you could work up an > adaptation for the Immersion unit used in the Act Labs Force RS that > would absolutely rock. The Immersion unit used in the Force RS is much > better than the one used in the Logitech Wingman FF. It has a much > larger, more powerful motor, toothed belt reduction (vs. cables in the > Logi), and ball bearings. > As far as I can tell, there's only one thing wrong with that Immersion > unit (excessive friction induced by belts that are too tight). A > company with your resources could surely develop a fix (adjustable or > spring-loaded tensioning idlers). > I bet you could do it in a couple of days. Pick up a Force RS for $70 > and take it apart and you'll see what I mean. You might even use the > RS's internal and electronic bits for your prototype. > About a year ago, I wrote to a very high-end wheel manufacturer (let's > call them "Acme") asking why they didn't provide paddles on their > wheels. They explained that they were committed to providing the > absolute best racing experience for their customers, and they said > paddles aren't as good or as fast as thumb buttons (conveniently > ignoring the fact that real F1 teams had been using paddle shifters for > years). > I wrote back and pointed out that I had put $5 microswitches on the back > of my TM wheel, and these worked just as fast as the thumb buttons on my > friend's "Acme" wheel and were ergonomically far superior. > I don't know if my email had any impact, but a few months later, "Acme" > began offering paddles on their wheels. > The m***of that story is that sometimes the people who make the very > best stuff can be temporarily blinded to the significance of worthwhile > innovations by the position of technical superiority in which their own > lofty talents and commitment to excellence have placed them. > I say it's time for you and Hyper Stimulator to move into the 21st > century, Rory. <grin> > Alison > On Thu, 30 Dec 1999 09:18:01 GMT, "Rory S. Brown" > >Pat, > >I appreciate your reply and respectfully disagree, though you make some > >valid points. I have driven GPL with force feedback with the Logitech Wheel > >and it doesn't even come close to the feeling I get from sitting in the > >Hyper Stimulator with the chassis shaker, 12 programmable button steering > >wheel, form fitted seat, and firm brake pedal. I hope that some day you > >will have the opportunity to use your obvious skills to work (checked your > >web site) by driving a Hyper Stimulator for a whole week or so. It is > >unfortunate the pricing of the Hyper Stimulator means that few people will > >get the opportunity to own a Hyper Stimulator. There is a reason it is > >priced like it is: Quality. Just ask any owner of a Hyper Stimulator if it > >is worth the price. You can't make a mistake investing in Quality! > >We will do force feedback when we determine it is at the correct stage of > >development. Please remember, the Hyper Stimulator is designed to be > >upgradeable so the investment is never lost. We even had a H Box shifter > >ready to go for GPL but since Papyrus didn't include this feature in the > >patch, as they where supposed to do, no point in doing it yet. > >Again, Thanks for your input. > Alison > Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me. > [link lost in import]

You have confused Rory's points with mine, but thanks for the support anyway :) -- PD clip > Pat, there you are wrong that FF should make your times better, that's clip > there. I rather feel the grip somehow in my hands than not at all. Also Rory > is right that to most ppl FF gives better control, because most of the ppl > can't control grip well without any physical feedback, they can't make > precise actions based in just horizontal screen movements. Maybe you can do

I'm sure you're quite alone with this opinion. Jens <snip> --------------------------------------------- Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address Visit my webpage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ for some serious stuff concerning: Radio controlled airplanes Racing simulation, esp. GPL Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor

Pat, you're 100% right. Jens >No offense, but you are 90% wrong. <snip> --------------------------------------------- Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address Visit my webpage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ for some serious stuff concerning: Radio controlled airplanes Racing simulation, esp. GPL Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor

Alison, great post. Additionally I have to remind, that Papy (the guys with this ultra-high quality demand) only released their FF-addon, after they were convinced about the quality of their implementation. Their earlier claim, FF wasn't ripe enough for a high-quality sim, so was taken back. I'm sure that a top end wheel/sim system can even get more out of the existing FF-sims, (i.e. GPL). But of course the developers have to get their ass up and go this way instead of telling anybody that it's not worth while/too early/.... IMO A good FF implementation can only be created/improved with an excellent wheel and a good FF-wheel can only improve together with an excellent FF-sim. Since I cannot affort to buy a HS (don't even know about the price), I go the way of improving my existing system (LWFF). After having converted to ball bearings and got my brake pedal pressure-sensitive (no need for stiffer springs or/and bigger throw :-), next will be to replace the break pedal by a metal one. The system will improve with each step, but of course never compete with the HS. On the good side: The costs also don't compete with the HS Wheel: US$ 160 BB conv. kit < US$ 60, soon for everybody without big wheel-modifications Pressure sensitive brake pedal: US$ 2 :-) To be continued.... Jens >Rory- >I have to agree with Pat on this one. A good FF wheel (I use the >Logitech) is far better than a passive wheel. I'm faster and more >consistent in GPL with a well set up Logitech FF wheel than with a <snip> --------------------------------------------- Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address Visit my webpage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ for some serious stuff concerning: Radio controlled airplanes Racing simulation, esp. GPL Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor

> All I > can say about Force Feedback is that we will do it when the software > technology is where we want it to be. OK, that's different from saying it's currently useless, or arcade-only. I know personally that the software and hardware in it's current state is very worthwhile - which doesn't mean that it doesn't need to improve, or won't improve over time. I never stated or implied that a FF wheel alone is more immersive than a complete HS setup. I did say that a good FF wheel is generally more immersive than the best non-FF wheels. What I took issue with is your out-of-hand dismissal of current FF technology. FWIW, I do believe that my personal setup rivals an HS in immersion, as it contains most all of the elements you ascribe to the HS. I have a seat shaker (BSG Labs Intensor Chair), 12 (or more?) programmable buttons on my Force RS wheel, and a firm brake pedal on my custom built pedals. The only thing I'm really missing is the sit-down***pit, which I may add next year when I have a new house and more room. Quite frankly, given the choice between driving with my setup, and driving in an HS, I would choose my setup because of the FF. BTW, all of this assumes GPL FF. I really haven't tried anything else that is very good (except Viper, of which I only tried the demo). Thanks for engaging in the discussion. I may be ordering a***pit kit sometime next year :) -- Pat Dotson http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

> Rory- > I have to agree with Pat on this one. A good FF wheel (I use the > Logitech) is far better than a passive wheel. I can't tell you how good it is to hear other people say this :) A year ago I felt like the only sim-driver on the planet who thought FF would amount to anything. Now, if we could just get HMD or multi-monitor support, we would really have something! Oh yea, and, RS shifter support in GPL :) -- Pat Dotson http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

Pat, Good to talk to you. Some valid articulate views. -- Rory S. Brown Canadian Distributor for Hyper Stimulator "The World's Best Racing Car Simulators" Visit www.hyperstimcanada.com Home Designed Computers by Rory "Custom Computers for your needs!" Visit www.directcomputers.com Unit 7 - 9947 - 151 Street Surrey, BC Canada V3R 9A1 Phone 604-671-5997 Fax 604-930-9983 Official Supplier of Computers & Hyper Stimulators to: the Players Racing Simulator Challenge Tour and The Kool Racing Challenge Tour Visit www.players-racing.com > > All I > > can say about Force Feedback is that we will do it when the software > > technology is where we want it to be. > OK, that's different from saying it's currently > useless, or arcade-only. I know personally > that the software and hardware in it's current > state is very worthwhile - which doesn't mean > that it doesn't need to improve, or won't > improve over time. > > I do think implied or expressed in Pat's message what offered the best > > overall racing simulation experience and frankly, I truly believe we offer > > that. > I never stated or implied that a FF wheel alone > is more immersive than a complete HS setup. > I did say that a good FF wheel is generally > more immersive than the best non-FF wheels. > What I took issue with is your out-of-hand > dismissal of current FF technology. > FWIW, I do believe that my personal setup > rivals an HS in immersion, as it contains > most all of the elements you ascribe to > the HS. I have a seat shaker (BSG Labs > Intensor Chair), 12 (or more?) programmable > buttons on my Force RS wheel, and a firm > brake pedal on my custom built pedals. > The only thing I'm really missing is the > sit-down***pit, which I may add next > year when I have a new house and more > room. Quite frankly, given the choice > between driving with my setup, and driving > in an HS, I would choose my setup because > of the FF. > BTW, all of this assumes GPL FF. I really > haven't tried anything else that is very > good (except Viper, of which I only tried > the demo). > Thanks for engaging in the discussion. I > may be ordering a***pit kit sometime next > year :) > -- > Pat Dotson > [link lost in import]

Pat, Yes, we need multi-monitor support with H Box shifter. -- Rory S. Brown Canadian Distributor for Hyper Stimulator "The World's Best Racing Car Simulators" Visit www.hyperstimcanada.com Home Designed Computers by Rory "Custom Computers for your needs!" Visit www.directcomputers.com Unit 7 - 9947 - 151 Street Surrey, BC Canada V3R 9A1 Phone 604-671-5997 Fax 604-930-9983 Official Supplier of Computers & Hyper Stimulators to: the Players Racing Simulator Challenge Tour and The Kool Racing Challenge Tour Visit www.players-racing.com > > Rory- > > I have to agree with Pat on this one. A good FF wheel (I use the > > Logitech) is far better than a passive wheel. > I can't tell you how good it is to hear other > people say this :) A year ago I felt like the > only sim-driver on the planet who thought FF > would amount to anything. > Now, if we could just get HMD or multi-monitor > support, we would really have something! Oh > yea, and, RS shifter support in GPL :) > -- > Pat Dotson > http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

I'm confused. You can't afford one but you don't know the price? Maybe you can't but what does it cost for you to check the web site www.hyperstimcanada.com out for the price before you make that statement? Or the head office in Australia at www.hyperstim.com? -- Rory S. Brown Canadian Distributor for Hyper Stimulator "The World's Best Racing Car Simulators" Visit www.hyperstimcanada.com Home Designed Computers by Rory "Custom Computers for your needs!" Visit www.directcomputers.com Unit 7 - 9947 - 151 Street Surrey, BC Canada V3R 9A1 Phone 604-671-5997 Fax 604-930-9983 Official Supplier of Computers & Hyper Stimulators to: the Players Racing Simulator Challenge Tour and The Kool Racing Challenge Tour Visit www.players-racing.com > Alison, > great post. > Additionally I have to remind, that Papy (the guys with this ultra-high quality > demand) only released their FF-addon, after they were convinced about the > quality of their implementation. > Their earlier claim, FF wasn't ripe enough for a high-quality sim, so was taken > back. > I'm sure that a top end wheel/sim system can even get more out of the existing > FF-sims, (i.e. GPL). But of course the developers have to get their ass up and > go this way instead of telling anybody that it's not worth while/too early/.... > IMO A good FF implementation can only be created/improved with an excellent > wheel and a good FF-wheel can only improve together with an excellent FF-sim. > Since I cannot affort to buy a HS (don't even know about the price), I go the > way of improving my existing system (LWFF). After having converted to ball > bearings and got my brake pedal pressure-sensitive (no need for stiffer springs > or/and bigger throw :-), next will be to replace the break pedal by a metal one. > The system will improve with each step, but of course never compete with the HS. > On the good side: The costs also don't compete with the HS > Wheel: US$ 160 > BB conv. kit < US$ 60, soon for everybody without big wheel-modifications > Pressure sensitive brake pedal: US$ 2 :-) > To be continued.... > Jens > >Rory- > >I have to agree with Pat on this one. A good FF wheel (I use the > >Logitech) is far better than a passive wheel. I'm faster and more > >consistent in GPL with a well set up Logitech FF wheel than with a > <snip> > --------------------------------------------- > Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address > Visit my webpage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ for some serious stuff concerning: > Radio controlled airplanes > Racing simulation, esp. GPL > Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor

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>About a year ago, I wrote to a very high-end wheel manufacturer (let's >call them "Acme") asking why they didn't provide paddles on their >wheels. They explained that they were committed to providing the >absolute best racing experience for their customers, and they said >paddles aren't as good or as fast as thumb buttons (conveniently >ignoring the fact that real F1 teams had been using paddle shifters for >years). >I wrote back and pointed out that I had put $5 microswitches on the back >of my TM wheel, and these worked just as fast as the thumb buttons on my >friend's "Acme" wheel and were ergonomically far superior. >I don't know if my email had any impact, but a few months later, "Acme" >began offering paddles on their wheels. >The m***of that story is that sometimes the people who make the very >best stuff can be temporarily blinded to the significance of worthwhile >innovations by the position of technical superiority in which their own >lofty talents and commitment to excellence have placed them.

When GPL 1.1 came out, and everyone here was raving about the quality of the FF, I wrote to this very same "ACME" company about implementing FF. They responded that it wasn't worth making the R & D investment until there was enough demand. Do us all a favor and jump on the bandwagon by telling "ACME" that you would once again mortgage your home if they offered an upgrade. Don McCorkle

Hi, Rory, And please excuse me for popping into this thread, but I simply feel I need to ask a question or two here ... I know I am a "newbie" to the simulator scene and these discussions, but some of your responses beg the inquiries. Understanding your position of FF not essentially being "ready for prime time", it still seems that though the technology may be somewhat less than perfectly "real" it would be in the best interest of any manufacturer to try and get in on development as early as possible. If Hyperstims are being ade to be "upgradable" to FF at some time in the future, how difficult would it be to implement it in its present form and use that as a "starting point" for further development ??? It appears that Hyperstim desires to have the most "immersive" racing simulators available, and with each of your simulators you offer extensive "option" lists ... Why not adapt the current FF technology and make it an "option" ??? Certainly you could charge a fair additional amount for the implementation, and given the prices of the units at present, it would not increase the price of the units dramatically from a percentage standpoint. Would not then the actual customer have the choice of whether the technology was an advantage or disadvantage ??? It would seem possible that Hyperstim might actually be "missing" some business currently by not offering FF as at least an option; with customers who currently prefer FF either not choosing to purchase a Hyperstim, or at least waiting until you do implement the FF technology ... Your company seems to want to be on the "leading edge" in racing simulation immersiveness and quality, yet your responses point to a policy of you will not offer it until "you" think its ready. The marketplace seems to be voting with its dollars, and it further seems that most other manufacturers are scrambling to implement FF as quickly as possible, even with all of the foilbles you seem to feel it has, and all the while they gain an "experience" knowledge base to further refine the technology. If nothing else, perhaps your company could "license" the technology from one of the other manufacturers or use someone like Act Labs as a supplier of FF motors and drives for the time being, further allowing you and your company to "learn" from their implementation while developing your own ... Pardon me if this seems pretentious, as I don't mean to be, but please understand I come from "real" auto racing, and if we ever let the "competition" get too much of a developmental edge then it is always far more diffcult to "catch up" after the fact. It always seems to work better to grab onto the new developments, even suffering some of the pitfalls along the way, than to lag too far behind ... Just my $ .02 ... Thanks, Allan

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>On Thu, 30 Dec 1999 21:56:55 GMT, "Rory S. Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Alison, >Thanks for your comments. Actually, the first thing I did was to try to >make the Logitech wheel fit in the Hyper, but it doesn't work out. All I >can say about Force Feedback is that we will do it when the software >technology is where we want it to be. Again, the Hyper Stimulator is >designed to be upgradeable so it in no way is it a disadvantage to own a >Hyper. Hyper Stimulator customers will be able to add Force Feedback later >on. I do think implied or expressed in Pat's message what offered the best >overall racing simulation experience and frankly, I truly believe we offer >that. I hope get the chance to spend some time behind a Hyper Stimulator >Historic Model some day. Thanks for your comments. They are always >appreciated. Now answer the trivial question I posted today. Don't answer >it too quickly if you know the answer. Let the group guess awhile. You >could email me if you want your answer. >-- >Rory S. Brown >Canadian Distributor for Hyper Stimulator >"The World's Best Racing Car Simulators" >Visit www.hyperstimcanada.com >Home Designed Computers by Rory >"Custom Computers for your needs!" >Visit www.directcomputers.com >Unit 7 - 9947 - 151 Street >Surrey, BC Canada V3R 9A1 >Phone 604-671-5997 >Fax 604-930-9983 >Hyper Stimulator Sales: [email hidden] >Computer Sales: [email hidden] >Official Supplier of Computers & Hyper Stimulators to: >the Players Racing Simulator Challenge Tour and >The Kool Racing Challenge Tour >Visit www.players-racing.com >"Alison Hine" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> Rory- >> I have to agree with Pat on this one. A good FF wheel (I use the >> Logitech) is far better than a passive wheel. I'm faster and more >> consistent in GPL with a well set up Logitech FF wheel than with a >> passive wheel, even a passive wheel which is much better in basic >> quality than the Logitech (I've tried many passive wheels, including >> ECCI, TSW, and my own custom wheel). >> I've been racing GPL for almost two years now, and with a passive wheel >> I'd reached a plateau in terms of speed. After going to a FF wheel, I'm >> going faster everywhere, and my ability to develop setups, and detect >> the quality of a setup change, is much improved. I get better race >> results too. >> It took some time (about two weeks) to adjust to the FF wheel, but after >> that, there's no going back. I tried going back to my (carefully >> crafted, very precise, very high quality) custom passive wheel recently, >> and it absolutely sucked compared to the LogiFF. >> BTW, your LWFF to Hyper Stim comparison is not really valid; you're >> comparing apples to oranges. Along with a topnotch passive wheel, >> you're comparing great pedals and an ensemble of components which >> creates a very immersive environment against a FF wheel operating in the >> context of a much less immersive environment. >> Why don't you bolt a Logitech FF wheel to a Hyper Stimulator in place of >> its HS-built wheel? Keep the Hyper Stim's pedals (they are sure to be >> better than the Logitech's) and just configure in GPL to use the Logi >> wheel instead of the HS's. (Details on my FF page at >> http://simracing.com/alison/gpl/force.htm ) >> (BTW, this is a minor point, but note that Logitech's software allows >> you to assign a shift function to one of the six paddles and buttons, so >> you can have, in effect, 11 buttons on the LogiFF.) >> Now drive GPL in this setup (and only this setup) every day for an hour, >> for two weeks. Then put the HS wheel back in place of the LogiFF. >> Yes, the LogiFF wheel is a cheapo plastic piece of crap compared to the >> HS wheel. Yes, it uses (yuck!) nylon bearings. Yes, its wheel wobbles >> because the shaft is too short and because of the play in the nylon >> bearings. Yes, its pot probably cost 10% of the cost of the pot in the >> HS. >> But I'm betting that you will want to put it back onto the HS after >> spending two weeks with it, and then comparing the passive wheel >> experience to the Force-enabled experience. >> Better still, I'm hoping that you'll want to develop your own FF wheel >> to put in the HS. If the HS experience is so great - and I'm sure it is >> - then imagine how great it would be when enhanced with a really good FF >> implementation. >> I'm sure that with not a whole lot of effort, you could work up an >> adaptation for the Immersion unit used in the Act Labs Force RS that >> would absolutely rock. The Immersion unit used in the Force RS is much >> better than the one used in the Logitech Wingman FF. It has a much >> larger, more powerful motor, toothed belt reduction (vs. cables in the >> Logi), and ball bearings. >> As far as I can tell, there's only one thing wrong with that Immersion >> unit (excessive friction induced by belts that are too tight). A >> company with your resources could surely develop a fix (adjustable or >> spring-loaded tensioning idlers). >> I bet you could do it in a couple of days. Pick up a Force RS for $70 >> and take it apart and you'll see what I mean. You might even use the >> RS's internal and electronic bits for your prototype. >> About a year ago, I wrote to a very high-end wheel manufacturer (let's >> call them "Acme") asking why they didn't provide paddles on their >> wheels. They explained that they were committed to providing the >> absolute best racing experience for their customers, and they said >> paddles aren't as good or as fast as thumb buttons (conveniently >> ignoring the fact that real F1 teams had been using paddle shifters for >> years). >> I wrote back and pointed out that I had put $5 microswitches on the back >> of my TM wheel, and these worked just as fast as the thumb buttons on my >> friend's "Acme" wheel and were ergonomically far superior. >> I don't know if my email had any impact, but a few months later, "Acme" >> began offering paddles on their wheels. >> The moral of that story is that sometimes the people who make the very >> best stuff can be temporarily blinded to the significance of worthwhile >> innovations by the position of technical superiority in which their own >> lofty talents and commitment to excellence have placed them. >> I say it's time for you and Hyper Stimulator to move into the 21st >> century, Rory. <grin> >> Alison >> On Thu, 30 Dec 1999 09:18:01 GMT, "Rory S. Brown" >> <[email hidden]> wrote: >> >Pat, >> >I appreciate your reply and respectfully disagree, though you make some >> >valid points. I have driven GPL with force feedback with the Logitech >Wheel >> >and it doesn't even come close to the feeling I get from sitting in the >> >Hyper Stimulator with the chassis shaker, 12 programmable button steering >> >wheel, form fitted seat, and firm brake pedal. I hope that some day you >> >will have the opportunity to use your obvious skills to work (checked >your >> >web site) by driving a Hyper Stimulator for a whole week or so. It is

... read more »

cg.aol.com>:

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>>About a year ago, I wrote to a very high-end wheel manufacturer (let's >>call them "Acme") asking why they didn't provide paddles on their >>wheels. They explained that they were committed to providing the >>absolute best racing experience for their customers, and they said >>paddles aren't as good or as fast as thumb buttons (conveniently >>ignoring the fact that real F1 teams had been using paddle shifters for >>years). >When GPL 1.1 came out, and everyone here was raving about the quality of the >FF, I wrote to this very same "ACME" company about implementing FF. They >responded that it wasn't worth making the R & D investment until there was >enough demand. Do us all a favor and jump on the bandwagon by telling "ACME" >that you would once again mortgage your home if they offered an upgrade. >Don McCorkle

The only thing I would trade my current ECCI wheel/pedal system for would be the new "ACME" force feedback system. -- Don {Anxiously waiting with money burning a hole in my pocket} Scurlock Vancouver,B.C.

Actually, the phrase "No Force Feedback is better than Bad Force Feedback" is an old phrase I often heard used around multi-million dollar flight simulators. So it would seem that Rory is not quite alone in this opinion. Indeed he shares the same opinions of the people at Langley, Boeing, Lockheed, Edwards, and Draper Labs, etc. TB

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>I'm sure you're quite alone with this opinion. >Jens >>My view is that No Force Feedback is better than Bad Force Feedback. At >>this point there is absolutely no reason to have force feedback in its ><snip> >--------------------------------------------- >Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address >Visit my webpage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ for some serious

stuff concerning: >Radio controlled airplanes >Racing simulation, esp. GPL >Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor

Excuse me if I missed something, but no one ever disagreed with that statement - the point being that there is good FF available now. -- PD > Actually, the phrase "No Force Feedback is better than Bad Force Feedback" > is an old phrase I often heard used around multi-million dollar flight > simulators. > So it would seem that Rory is not quite alone in this opinion.

Hi Alison, Well, I've both.....and so far I like the Hyperstim more then the Logitech. I guess it's me, but somehow I fail to notice the extra information the FF should give me. I find myself fighting the wheel, while I'm more relaxed when I'm using the Hyper. Yes, I've the Logitech for some months now, and I tried to use it for some weeks, just trying to get the feeling for it. So far, it's no show. I'll keep trying, but I fear I'm spoiled.... Remco

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>Rory- >I have to agree with Pat on this one. A good FF wheel (I use the >Logitech) is far better than a passive wheel. I'm faster and more >consistent in GPL with a well set up Logitech FF wheel than with a >passive wheel, even a passive wheel which is much better in basic >quality than the Logitech (I've tried many passive wheels, including >ECCI, TSW, and my own custom wheel).

<Snip>

Allan, I understand what you are saying. Hyper Stimulator does our manufacturing in-house. We would be very reluctant to lease technology or parts from someone else. This was a problem in the past. Hardware is not the issue for FF to use, software to our standards is. If Hyper Stimulator in Australia received enough feedback stating clearly that you or anyone else would buy the Hyper Stimulator if it had FF than I am sure it would happen. I personally am looking forward to the day when we will have it because I know it will be done correctly. I don't loose sleep over the fact that we don't have it yet. What it comes down to is the environment that we deliver in my opinion is the best out there, even though we don't have the FF some are looking for. The Hyper Stimulator was founded by a Real Racing Driver Champion. Read the story at http://www.hyperstim.com/hq/story.html . One thing is for sure, if enough people stand up to the bar and commit clearly that they would purchase the Hyper Stimulator if it had FF, than I am sure we would do. Anyone is welcome to email me their commitment to purchase a Hyper Stimulator if it had FF. I would be very interested to find out what type of commitment there is. Thanks for your comments. I do appreciate all comments positive or negative. Just so that it is clear to everyone, Hyper Stimulator doesn't pretend to be God on the subject of race car simulators. We always want to improve. We do our best and do what we think is right. All egos should be checked at the door! -- Rory S. Brown Canadian Distributor for Hyper Stimulator "The World's Best Racing Car Simulators" Visit www.hyperstimcanada.com Home Designed Computers by Rory "Custom Computers for your needs!" Visit www.directcomputers.com Unit 7 - 9947 - 151 Street Surrey, BC Canada V3R 9A1 Phone 604-671-5997 Fax 604-930-9983 Hyper Stimulator Sales: [email hidden] Computer Sales: [email hidden] Official Supplier of Computers & Hyper Stimulators to: the Players Racing Simulator Challenge Tour and The Kool Racing Challenge Tour Visit www.players-racing.com <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Hi, Rory, > And please excuse me for popping into this thread, but I simply feel I > need to ask a question or two here ... > I know I am a "newbie" to the simulator scene and these discussions, > but some of your responses beg the inquiries. > Understanding your position of FF not essentially being "ready for > prime time", it still seems that though the technology may be somewhat > less than perfectly "real" it would be in the best interest of any > manufacturer to try and get in on development as early as possible. If > Hyperstims are being ade to be "upgradable" to FF at some time in the > future, how difficult would it be to implement it in its present form > and use that as a "starting point" for further development ??? > It appears that Hyperstim desires to have the most "immersive" racing > simulators available, and with each of your simulators you offer > extensive "option" lists ... Why not adapt the current FF technology > and make it an "option" ??? Certainly you could charge a fair > additional amount for the implementation, and given the prices of the > units at present, it would not increase the price of the units > dramatically from a percentage standpoint. Would not then the actual > customer have the choice of whether the technology was an advantage or > disadvantage ??? > It would seem possible that Hyperstim might actually be "missing" some > business currently by not offering FF as at least an option; with > customers who currently prefer FF either not choosing to purchase a > Hyperstim, or at least waiting until you do implement the FF > technology ... > Your company seems to want to be on the "leading edge" in racing > simulation immersiveness and quality, yet your responses point to a > policy of you will not offer it until "you" think its ready. The > marketplace seems to be voting with its dollars, and it further seems > that most other manufacturers are scrambling to implement FF as > quickly as possible, even with all of the foilbles you seem to feel it > has, and all the while they gain an "experience" knowledge base to > further refine the technology. If nothing else, perhaps your company > could "license" the technology from one of the other manufacturers or > use someone like Act Labs as a supplier of FF motors and drives for > the time being, further allowing you and your company to "learn" from > their implementation while developing your own ... > Pardon me if this seems pretentious, as I don't mean to be, but please > understand I come from "real" auto racing, and if we ever let the > "competition" get too much of a developmental edge then it is always > far more diffcult to "catch up" after the fact. It always seems to > work better to grab onto the new developments, even suffering some of > the pitfalls along the way, than to lag too far behind ... > Just my $ .02 ... > Thanks, > Allan > >On Thu, 30 Dec 1999 21:56:55 GMT, "Rory S. Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote: > >Alison, > >Thanks for your comments. Actually, the first thing I did was to try to > >make the Logitech wheel fit in the Hyper, but it doesn't work out. All I > >can say about Force Feedback is that we will do it when the software > >technology is where we want it to be. Again, the Hyper Stimulator is > >designed to be upgradeable so it in no way is it a disadvantage to own a > >Hyper. Hyper Stimulator customers will be able to add Force Feedback later > >on. I do think implied or expressed in Pat's message what offered the best > >overall racing simulation experience and frankly, I truly believe we offer > >that. I hope get the chance to spend some time behind a Hyper Stimulator > >Historic Model some day. Thanks for your comments. They are always > >appreciated. Now answer the trivial question I posted today. Don't answer > >it too quickly if you know the answer. Let the group guess awhile. You > >could email me if you want your answer. > >-- > >Rory S. Brown > >Canadian Distributor for Hyper Stimulator > >"The World's Best Racing Car Simulators" > >Visit www.hyperstimcanada.com > >Home Designed Computers by Rory > >"Custom Computers for your needs!" > >Visit www.directcomputers.com > >Unit 7 - 9947 - 151 Street > >Surrey, BC Canada V3R 9A1 > >Phone 604-671-5997 > >Fax 604-930-9983 > >Hyper Stimulator Sales: [email hidden] > >Computer Sales: [email hidden] > >Official Supplier of Computers & Hyper Stimulators to: > >the Players Racing Simulator Challenge Tour and > >The Kool Racing Challenge Tour > >Visit www.players-racing.com > >"Alison Hine" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > >> Rory- > >> I have to agree with Pat on this one. A good FF wheel (I use the > >> Logitech) is far better than a passive wheel. I'm faster and more > >> consistent in GPL with a well set up Logitech FF wheel than with a > >> passive wheel, even a passive wheel which is much better in basic > >> quality than the Logitech (I've tried many passive wheels, including > >> ECCI, TSW, and my own custom wheel). > >> I've been racing GPL for almost two years now, and with a passive wheel > >> I'd reached a plateau in terms of speed. After going to a FF wheel, I'm > >> going faster everywhere, and my ability to develop setups, and detect > >> the quality of a setup change, is much improved. I get better race > >> results too. > >> It took some time (about two weeks) to adjust to the FF wheel, but after > >> that, there's no going back. I tried going back to my (carefully > >> crafted, very precise, very high quality) custom passive wheel recently, > >> and it absolutely sucked compared to the LogiFF. > >> BTW, your LWFF to Hyper Stim comparison is not really valid; you're > >> comparing apples to oranges. Along with a topnotch passive wheel, > >> you're comparing great pedals and an ensemble of components which > >> creates a very immersive environment against a FF wheel operating in the > >> context of a much less immersive environment. > >> Why don't you bolt a Logitech FF wheel to a Hyper Stimulator in place of > >> its HS-built wheel? Keep the Hyper Stim's pedals (they are sure to be > >> better than the Logitech's) and just configure in GPL to use the Logi > >> wheel instead of the HS's. (Details on my FF page at > >> http://simracing.com/alison/gpl/force.htm ) > >> (BTW, this is a minor point, but note that Logitech's software allows > >> you to assign a shift function to one of the six paddles and buttons, so > >> you can have, in effect, 11 buttons on the LogiFF.) > >> Now drive GPL in this setup (and only this setup) every day for an hour, > >> for two weeks. Then put the HS wheel back in place of the LogiFF. > >> Yes, the LogiFF wheel is a cheapo plastic piece of crap compared to the > >> HS wheel. Yes, it uses (yuck!) nylon bearings. Yes, its wheel wobbles > >> because the shaft is too short and because of the play in the nylon > >> bearings. Yes, its pot probably cost 10% of the cost of the pot in the > >> HS. > >> But I'm betting that you will want to put it back onto the HS after > >> spending two weeks with it, and then comparing the passive wheel > >> experience to the Force-enabled experience. > >> Better still, I'm hoping that you'll want to develop your own FF wheel > >> to put in the HS. If the HS experience is so great - and I'm sure it is > >> - then imagine how great it would be when enhanced with a really good FF > >> implementation. > >> I'm sure that with not a whole lot of effort, you could work up an > >> adaptation for the Immersion unit used in the Act Labs Force RS that > >> would absolutely rock. The Immersion ... read more »

> Actually, the phrase "No Force Feedback is better than Bad Force Feedback" > is an old phrase I often heard used around multi-million dollar flight > simulators. huh, excuse me? In order for a sim to be certified by the FAA it has to meet many requirements, including having the stick and rudder pedals respond with back-pressure as they do in the aircraft being simulated. It's never a matter of "no force feedback is better", if it's in the plane, it _has_ to be in the sim or the certification level is downgraded. BTW, I work for CAE. :)

Hmmm, I prefer 3D glasses with headtracking.....<g> Remco

Just had an idea. GPL can be run in a window. Can multiple copies be run at once? If so, could these multiple copies be "networked" together on one PC? If they could, it seems to me that you could, on one computer, emulate the multiple monitor setups some people have set up. Those set ups use multiple computers all running GPL, networked together. Win 98 should be able to send video from the additional copies of GPL to additional monitors. Does anyone know? -- PD > >Yes, we need multi-monitor support > Hmmm, I prefer 3D glasses with headtracking.....<g> > Remco

You would need one heck of a PC to run 3 copies of GPL if it is possible. Why not just network 2 cheaper PC's (get TNT cards since you don't need mirrors and can run at higher resolution) to your main one, share your internet connection, and when you join a race join it on all three computers, set the other 2 up to watch the race in the peripheral views. Too bad GPL doesn't have a spectator mode, since you'll be filling up 3 slots in the race. And offline it would only be good for testing, since the AI won't run multiplayer. "Pat Dotson" wrote

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> Just had an idea. > GPL can be run in a window. Can multiple copies > be run at once? If so, could these multiple > copies be "networked" together on one PC? > If they could, it seems to me that you could, on > one computer, emulate the multiple monitor setups > some people have set up. Those set ups use > multiple computers all running GPL, networked > together. > Win 98 should be able to send video from the > additional copies of GPL to additional monitors. > Does anyone know? > -- > PD > > >Yes, we need multi-monitor support > > Hmmm, I prefer 3D glasses with headtracking.....<g> > > Remco

Oh yea, I didn't think about the nightmare it would cause trying to do multiplayer. Still, as pc's get faster, it may be an option - and also, ai will run in multiplayer, won't they? I tried to fire up gpl in a window by changing the fullscreen setting in the core.ini. It didn't make any difference. Does anyone know how to start it in a window? -- PD > You would need one heck of a PC to run 3 copies of GPL if it is > possible. Why not just network 2 cheaper PC's (get TNT cards since you > don't need mirrors and can run at higher resolution) to your main one, > share your internet connection, and when you join a race join it on > all three computers, set the other 2 up to watch the race in the > peripheral views. > Too bad GPL doesn't have a spectator mode, since you'll be filling up > 3 slots in the race. And offline it would only be good for testing, > since the AI won't run multiplayer. > "Pat Dotson" wrote > > Just had an idea. > > GPL can be run in a window. Can multiple copies > > be run at once? If so, could these multiple > > copies be "networked" together on one PC? > > If they could, it seems to me that you could, on > > one computer, emulate the multiple monitor setups > > some people have set up. Those set ups use > > multiple computers all running GPL, networked > > together. > > Win 98 should be able to send video from the > > additional copies of GPL to additional monitors. > > Does anyone know? > > -- > > PD > > > >Yes, we need multi-monitor support > > > Hmmm, I prefer 3D glasses with headtracking.....<g> > > > Remco

I guess you have to run it in software mode, 3dfx can only run in full screen. Can't try it right now, I'm not sitting in front of my own computer. Andre

I'll do, thx But I'm quite sure that it'll be more than US$200, which was my limit when I bought the LWFF. Don't be offended, I'm sure the HS is worth any dollar it costs. Jens --------------------------------------------- Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address Visit my webpage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ for some serious stuff concerning: Radio controlled airplanes Racing simulation, esp. GPL Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor