GPL: Why no weather?

Considering the amount of trouble Papyrus went to making GPL, I am surprised there are no weather effects. This was one of the many gripes alot of people had with GP2 when it came out, because it was included in GP1 and added a bit of variety to the racing. Is there a reason why we don't have rainshowers while blasting through the Ardenne forest or sliding around Monaco? It's not like they would have to change much else as the cars ran on the same tyres whatever the weather conditions were in those days. Chris

The way it was explained to me was that it was too computationally expensive to do weather the way they wanted to with puddles, drying race lines, varying traction near trees, streams crossing track in downpours , etc. GPL was pretty demanding on the CPUs of the time when it came out and the designers felt that this would be overwhelming. Proper weather would also have required even more coding time and probably would have put GPL behind schedule. Maybe in GPL2 , who knows? :) David

Hi Chris In fact realistic weather effects would be extremely difficult to achieve in GPL. Circuits like Spa are so big that for example in 1966 the start line was dry while there was a downpour and quite deep water lying on the track down by Burnenvillle and Stavelot. To model this variability would be even more processor intensive than GPL already is. In fact all 1967 races were dry except Mosport: Some folks at GPLEA are attempting to produce a 'rain-patch' for Mosport based on replacing the asphalt with other surfaces and changing the graphics. Good luck to 'em, but I feel it is unlikely to be realistic. As far as wet tyres are concerned, there have been different tyres in use for different weather conditions since the 1930s, they certainly had wets in 1967, and by 1971 they had the full range of slicks, wets and intermediates (see the Polanski film of Jackie Stewart's wet monaco weekend) Tim Leighton

I remember seeing screenshots of an early GPL beta on a German site that had sliders for all sorts of weather effects. Just didn't have time to get them into the final version I guess... --David Cook

First of all, I suggest you go check deja.com there is plenty of interesting archives on this subject (800matches!) The main reason was that weather effects the way they should be are simply not available to the mainstream PC even in today's standard. Also, the time consideration overlooked for the lack of this option in GPL. I am not talking about simply weather effects but how Papyrus wants it to be. As the leader in the simracing industry, and especially with David Kaemmer creating it, he simply chose to not to do instead of trying to. Yoda said once.. "Try not. Do, or do not. There is no try..." Because it's just not decreasing the track grip. You can do that by modifying your setup if you want. After that just repaint the track graphics to recreate a rain-environment. From an old message I did on r.a.s. here is what I suggest a realistic weather effect game engine should try to have : - % of rain per square inch, to simulate how hard the rain falls down. Perhaps also calculate the density of the rain and make everything else model to those changing effects. It also changes during the course of a session. - Wind speed and temperature, atmospheric pressure. All of this can change during the course of any session. - Terrain model, in a way that the 3-d engine would model rain to get down slopes, make rivers on the terrain, rivers on the track, puddle at specific lower parts of the track - How the grass actually absorb, not just the grass but the track, and any other types of surface like how sand absorbs the water (depending on the 3d geometry of the environment of course). All of this is related to the grip coefficient on the tyre patch. - Realistic clouds, in a way you have all the possible list of clouds (cirrus, cumulus, etc..). This affect the type and density of rain, how fast it comes and goes, etc.. Also, with atmospheric pressure you could model how low the clouds are, that creating the possibility of reduced vision/fog. - racing groove is less affected by the rain because of the tires on the tracks. A good thing would be to calculate this via the LP AI files. It's dependant to about all the things above, like the 3d geometry (the camber of the track), how hard it's raining, etc.. - Modeling of the rain poured off the back of tires, or sliding off any parts of the car body. So rain falling down on the cars actually drift off behind with real-time physics (not just canned depending on the speed only). - All this in real-time, remember.. In conclusion, we will have to wait for a new product that I speculate will arrive soon, that is a game card which purpose is only to calculate mathematical physics calculation, giving the 3d graphic engine to the video card and decreasing the CPU load. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I'm really quite curious about this. Is this physics calculating game card that you speak of something that is in developement for PC's somewhere or are you gazing into a crystal ball and prophesizing (not that theres' anything wrong with that :) )? David

I think I remember seeing some editorials about it, but at the moment I haven't ever seen a company doing some research about that. I really hope somebody catches out on the idea. It would be probably a very big step forward. This and mainstream quality VR-Goggles that would recreate a 3d-freedom of head movement in any game engine. Every game on the market could take advantage of this. FPS, flight-sims, racing sims, even simply arcade games with limited calculations for the physics. You just would probably need a standard coding for that, since I doubt it could accelerate any game (kinda like a 3d card for real 3d acceleration needs a rasterizer like Glide, D3d or OpenGL). -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

GPLEA is working on a rain patch for Mosport. I think it will only make the gripp less and perhaps some different graphics, but I'm very curious for the results. Andre

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>> I'm really quite curious about this. Is this physics calculating game card >> that you speak of something that is in developement for PC's somewhere or >> are you gazing into a crystal ball and prophesizing (not that theres' >> anything wrong with that :) )? >I think I remember seeing some editorials about it, but at the moment I >haven't ever seen a company doing some research about that. I really hope >somebody catches out on the idea. >It would be probably a very big step forward. This and mainstream quality >VR-Goggles that would recreate a 3d-freedom of head movement in any game >engine. Every game on the market could take advantage of this. FPS, >flight-sims, racing sims, even simply arcade games with limited calculations >for the physics. You just would probably need a standard coding for that, >since I doubt it could accelerate any game (kinda like a 3d card for real 3d >acceleration needs a rasterizer like Glide, D3d or OpenGL). >-- >-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> >-- May the Downforce be with you... >"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise >how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

> (see the Polanski film of Jackie Stewart's wet monaco weekend) Tim, I've never heard of this film? Could you please elaborate? Sounds interesting. Thanks, Dave Ewing -- ***************************************************** David A. Ewing *****************************************************

Saw that a few years ago - Excellent stuff! -- Cheers! Graeme Nash

writes: Please! I have enough problems staying on the track NOW...<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

If you've seen the race at Spa in the movie Grand Prix, even you would like to have rainshowers Eldred! That scene was fantastic. It shows how unbelievable scary it was... And I once read a report of Jacky Steward from a race in the rain at the Ring. I can only dream of a realistic weather option in GPL... Andre

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>writes: >>Is there a reason why we don't have rainshowers while blasting through the >>Ardenne forest or sliding around Monaco? It's not like they would have to >>change much else as the cars ran on the same tyres whatever the weather >>conditions were in those days. >Please! I have enough problems staying on the track NOW...<g> >Eldred >-- >Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 >Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc >Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you >with experience... >Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

> If you've seen the race at Spa in the movie Grand Prix, even you would > like to have rainshowers Eldred! That scene was fantastic. It shows > how unbelievable scary it was... Oh yeah, Just think about blasting down the straight approaching the Masta Kink seeing nothing because of the spray from the car in front of you. Easy on the brakes and just when you thought you survived masta you can see a lot of hayballs in front of you and then this lotus pointing the nose at you upside down. BAM! I think it would lead to a series of heart-attack killed sim-racers :)

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> And I once read a report of Jacky Steward from a race in the rain at > the Ring. I can only dream of a realistic weather option in GPL... > Andre > >writes: > >>Is there a reason why we don't have rainshowers while blasting through the > >>Ardenne forest or sliding around Monaco? It's not like they would have to > >>change much else as the cars ran on the same tyres whatever the weather > >>conditions were in those days. > >Please! I have enough problems staying on the track NOW...<g> > >Eldred > >-- > >Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 > >Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc > >Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you > >with experience... > >Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

-- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying

This is a truly fantastic film, following Jackie throughout the weekend, including breakfast in his Y-fronts. He takes Roman round the circuit in what looks like a milk-float or golfing cart, explaining braking points and gear shift points. He entertains the winners of a Daily Express competition very courteously, gets pissed off with a photographer who catches him changing his undershirt on the track, speaks terrible French to the doorman at the hotel, and of course the race and practice footage is extensive and fantastic, giving a real insight into the setting up of the car and the dynamics of the Tyrell team. One of the real classic motorsport films. I have no idea at all if it is available. It was broadcast a few years ago on Channel 4's Motorsport night, and I have a video of it. If you contact me in the new year David, I might be able to make you a copy Tim Leighton

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> > (see the Polanski film of Jackie Stewart's wet monaco weekend) > Tim, I've never heard of this film? Could you please elaborate? Sounds > interesting. > Thanks, > Dave Ewing > -- > ***************************************************** > David A. Ewing > *****************************************************

:> (major snippage) :> :> In conclusion, we will have to wait for a new product that I speculate : will :> arrive soon, that is a game card which purpose is only to calculate :> mathematical physics calculation, giving the 3d graphic engine to the : video :> card and decreasing the CPU load. : I'm really quite curious about this. Is this physics calculating game card : that you speak of something that is in developement for PC's somewhere or : are you gazing into a crystal ball and prophesizing (not that theres' : anything wrong with that :) )? There are companys researching the "physics accelerator". I certainly know of one in Oxford looking into the matter. -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 11:32:43 GMT, "Tim Leighton"

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>This is a truly fantastic film, following Jackie throughout the weekend, >including breakfast in his Y-fronts. He takes Roman round the circuit in >what looks like a milk-float or golfing cart, explaining braking points and >gear shift points. He entertains the winners of a Daily Express competition >very courteously, gets pissed off with a photographer who catches him >changing his undershirt on the track, speaks terrible French to the doorman >at the hotel, and of course the race and practice footage is extensive and >fantastic, giving a real insight into the setting up of the car and the >dynamics of the Tyrell team. One of the real classic motorsport films. >I have no idea at all if it is available. It was broadcast a few years ago >on Channel 4's Motorsport night, and I have a video of it. If you contact me >in the new year David, I might be able to make you a copy >> > (see the Polanski film of Jackie Stewart's wet monaco weekend) >> Tim, I've never heard of this film? Could you please elaborate? Sounds >> interesting.

AFAIK it's called "Weekend of a Champion". Was on German TV once or twice, years ago. IMDB says it named "Afternoon of a Champion (1972)", though. -- Matthias Flatt

If I ever sat in my GPL car and saw it was raining, I would just turn off my computer and go to bed. nuff said.

I think because the sim would have been too demanding for the CPU. Stefano

Yes, I had a long thought after I posted that question and it is hard enough as it is to stay on the track, especially Spa.

: Yes, I had a long thought after I posted that question and it is hard enough : as it is to stay on the track, especially Spa. I find Spa one of the easier tracks to stay on. Of course, I only run about 90% of the speed of the top guys, so maybe Spa gets proportionally higher when you really hang it out there. stephen

Eldred, how about snow? ;-) Jens --------------------------------------------- Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address Visit my webpage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ for some serious stuff concerning: Radio controlled airplanes Racing simulation, esp. GPL Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor

Think about what it would take to implement true weather variations though. I read that Papy thought it just wouldn't be good enough to add some code making the sky dark and the track slippery. If it was to be done it would have to be in keeping with the rest of the sim. This would mean dynamic weather, with full water flow models so that water may build up in a dip for example, different sections of track may be dry, the possibility of a drying racing line etc etc. I think they just decided that they didn't have enough time and that current computers just aren't powerful enough. It's probably something for the future though. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!

Yep, I saw the movie the last time it was on Speedvision. It would be VERY scary... I like driving in SCGT in the rain, but I didn't like it in GP2 or ICR2 - I always left the weather OFF. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

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>: Yes, I had a long thought after I posted that question and it is hard >enough >: as it is to stay on the track, especially Spa. >I find Spa one of the easier tracks to stay on. Of course, I only run >about 90% of the speed of the top guys, so maybe Spa gets proportionally >higher when you really hang it out there. >stephen

My toughest track seems to be Zandvoort. I *hate* it. I can barely get out of 2nd gear, and everyone leaves me in the dust. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

writes:

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>Eldred, >how about snow? ;-) >Jens >>Please! I have enough problems staying on the track NOW...<g> >>Eldred

Uh...NO. <g> -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

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>Warringa) writes: >>If you've seen the race at Spa in the movie Grand Prix, even you would >>like to have rainshowers Eldred! That scene was fantastic. It shows >>how unbelievable scary it was... >Yep, I saw the movie the last time it was on Speedvision. It would be VERY >scary... >I like driving in SCGT in the rain, but I didn't like it in GP2 or ICR2 - I >always left the weather OFF.

Weather effects in GP2 and ICR2? -- Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) No person's opinions can be said to be more correct than another's, because each is the sole judge of his or her own experience.

>>Yep, I saw the movie the last time it was on Speedvision. It would be VERY >>scary... >>I like driving in SCGT in the rain, but I didn't like it in GP2 or ICR2 - I >>always left the weather OFF. >Weather effects in GP2 and ICR2? Well, you CAN run in the rain....<g> -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.