DTR first impressions

Even though, while growing up in the American midwest, I dreamed of racing at Indy or in Formula 1, where was it that I actually spectated at races week after week? Well, of course it was at the local 1/4 and 1/2-mile dirt tracks of southern Ohio and Indiana, watching the stockers, modifieds, and sprint cars on the dusty ovals. So, I was hoping that DTR would take me back to those days. To an extent, it does do that, but it's somewhat of a compromise between "arcadish" and "simulation" features, leaning more toward arcade when in single- user play. Not that there's anything wrong with that -- it can still be a lot of fun for your $20! The game is probably a lot of fun in multiplayer, which I have not tried yet. After all, it will be a relief to play a game where contact is expected in the turns, after all of the problems with first-lap crashes in GPL! Human intelligence will also be a relief after experiencing the game's lame attempts at "AI". It is my contention that there is actually no "AI" in the game at all. Instead, the other cars pretty much go along pre-set lines at pre-set speeds. Maybe there is some randomness when they happen to collide, but this is not the same as "AI". For example, one particular car will run the entire race along the high line, while another will be taking the inside line and run up onto the inner curbing. They almost never vary from this. Passing them means staying out of their line, as they do not tend to move over or react to you in any way. Someone has also noted that the other cars always finish approximately in the order of their car numbers -- little excuse for this level of predictability. There are also too few crashes. Anyone who has ever attended a short- track race knows how long it can sometimes take to get the first lap of the feature race completed! I wouldn't want to simulate this too closely, but a major pileup once in a while would be fun. The "fantasy track" issue doesn't bother me too much since most dirt tracks are only locally known and there is a certain sameness to them. OTOH, I think I ran at a track last night in Iowa with what looked like the Rocky Mountains in the background. That's what I call a fantasy! Some of the other touches are really good, such as the way the groove is different from the heats to the final, and can change during the race. I doubt, however, that there's enough depth to the game to keep me interested for long in single-player mode. The real fun has to be in multiplayer, which I'll be sure to try ASAP. I hope there are enough servers and players available for all classes of racing! Doug G Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

I don't find what you're saying about the AI to be true, Doug -- I have had some great wheel-to-wheel racing with the AI, and they do seem to avoid you IF you drive consistently. Just last night I found myself thinking that the AI in DTR is probably the most advanced I've ever raced against, including GPL. You definitely want to make sure you have the AI difficulty cranked to 100%, and also that you have the realism set to 100%; otherwise, you're not getting the real deal. FWIW, I served as a beta tester, so I've had the game a LOT longer than most people, but I'm STILL working my way through the career mode. I think the single-player replayability for this game is very high based on the level of enjoyment it's given me. As for the predictability of the AI cars, it's safe to say that each series has it's own Scott Bloomquist equivalent, as well as a Hiro Matsushita equivalent, and everything in-between, so the finishes are bound to be similar from race to race (just like in the real world). There could be more crashes, and the yellow flags DEFINITELY need work, but I've seen cars tangle and roll, and I've seen yellows fly when that happens, so all the right elements seem to be in place. Also, on the arcadish vs. realistic physics modeling, we've been doing various tests on the upcoming patch, and one test involved checking for a lap record bug -- we were running all the race laps at a very slow speed, then making sure the last lap was the fastest. While turning those slow laps, I had a chance to see how the game "feels" at real- world speeds (that is, speeds that you'd probably drive a real car at, with no wheelspin and such). What amazed me was how realistic the car felt and handled -- if the Driver demo felt half as good, it would be touted as the GPL of street racers. Speaking of GPL, it struck me that DTR seems even more realistic than GPL in some ways -- many people (better drivers than me, in fact) have noted that GPL is somewhat unrealistic in that the cars do NOT become easier to drive as the speeds decrease. This would be expected in a modern Indy or F1 sim, where the aero aids at speed tend to make the car easier to drive than it is at low speed, but in GPL's 1967-era cars, driving around at slow (street) speeds should be MUCH easier than driving them at the limit. In DTR, though, while the cars slide like crazy at speed and get a lot of wheelspin at full-throttle (the way they should), they ALSO handle very, very much like normal family sedans at slower speeds. VERY impressive -- force yourself to do 10 or 20 laps this way and see what I mean. All in all, DTR may not be THE most realistic sim ever, but it's very, VERY good overall, and I think we're both in agreement on this, so I hope you don't think that I'm attacking you with this message -- I just wanted to share some of my impressions, too. - JB Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

<all of it deleted> John, After noticing that you are part of Wilshe's latest business venture, I have to question your ability to provide unbiased comments. Were you paid by Ratbag for any services that Wilshe's company rendered for them? I've totally dismissed Wilshe's comments but am giving you the benefit of the doubt. Jeff

On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 06:42:45 GMT, [email hidden] wrote: >Jeff, > >Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt. Allow me to help sway >your opinion a bit more in my favor (hopefully): ><much snipped> John, Thanks for your feedback. I find your tastes similar to mine and so will give Dirt Track Racing a go. In this day of cancellations and staff cutbacks, we need to support any company willing to give us something without mainstream compromises. Jeff

John and David here is my report of when I tried to stare a F1 car down! At the Glen, I had the distinct *pleasure* of standing in front of a 1967 or 1968 Lotus being driven slowly up to the old garage site by a Lotus mechanic. I can tell you that he was driving in short bursts, clutch in clutch out, up that road until the last 30 yards or so before he made his left turn into the garage driveway. I was just past where he was going to turn, and he just touched the accelerator for an instant and came at me so fast I must have set a record for the sideways standing road leap! Now it could be said that his short burst method of travel was being done because he had to make a path through all the race fans who were in the road at the time and that Cosworth howl really did get your attention - but if the road had been empty I think he could have trundled (?) up it in full control at 30 mph or so in first gear, but they were always shaking beasts at those speeds acting like they were very impatient and begging to be let loose! chris r [email hidden] wrote:

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> > David, > > Re-read my statement, David -- what I was trying to say is that it > SHOULD be MUCH easier to drive around slowly in GPL, but it really > ISN'T all that much easier. > <snip> > > It's not uncommon for me to find myself suddenly spinning > wildly while cruising around slowly trying to learn a new track -- no > Maybe that's the way > 1967 GP cars really did handle at low speeds -- I don't know and I > can't say, but it does seem oddly incongruent, given the great physics > at speed. To me, it almost seems like there's not quite enough grip at > low speed. > <snip> > > Hope this clears up my previous statement a bit. > > -- JB > > In article <82qt5c$h7b$[email hidden]>, > "David Karr" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > John, > > > > Can you expand on that point? For I'm not sure I agree, and the point > > certainly seems counter-intuitive. > <snip> > > > >

David, Re-read my statement, David -- what I was trying to say is that it SHOULD be MUCH easier to drive around slowly in GPL, but it really ISN'T all that much easier. While it definitely IS easier to go *off* at speed or when running faster, it seems that the realism we get "at speed" in GPL is achieved at the expense of realistic handling throughout the entire performance envelope. For example, at slow speeds, the cars should be pretty darn stable, just like a real car (albeit a bit more responsive, perhaps), but they aren't. I can't recall who it was, but some sim racer whom I hold in fairly high regard (for some reason, it seems like it might have been the sysop of the CompuServe Sportsim forum) pointed out that at low speed, the cars in GPL are as twitchy and unstable as they are at high speed. Granted, you have a tight, responsive chassis and a lot of horsepower underfoot, but for the average joe (or jane), it's still virtually impossible to just cruise around a given track at low speed (in the 30 - 50 mph range, for example). Like you, I have found that I can just cruise around at low speed, but it continually amazes me how twitchy the cars in GPL are even at low speed. It's not uncommon for me to find myself suddenly spinning wildly while cruising around slowly trying to learn a new track -- no matter how delicately I feather the throttle. Maybe that's the way 1967 GP cars really did handle at low speeds -- I don't know and I can't say, but it does seem oddly incongruent, given the great physics at speed. To me, it almost seems like there's not quite enough grip at low speed. In contrast, I've found that at low speed, the cars in DTR do seem to feel and handle like those mid-70s hunks of American iron that I learned to drive on -- much more so than what I've seen in games like the Driver demo, for example (haven't tried the full version of Driver yet). Given this, plus the fact that real-world chassis setup tweaks work so realistically in DTR, I really feel that the physics in DTR may have a higher level of realism than we're giving it credit for. I'm not trying to imply that DTR may be more realistic than GPL, but I do feel that DTR's physics model is very good in its own right. Also, regardless of how good it feels, the GPL physics model may not be the near-perfect an unflawed piece of work we tend to think it is. Hope this clears up my previous statement a bit. -- JB In article <82qt5c$h7b$[email hidden]>, "David Karr" <[email hidden]> wrote: > John, > > Can you expand on that point? For I'm not sure I agree, and the point > certainly seems counter-intuitive. Doesn't the simple fact that thefaster > you go, the more apt you to go *off* speak against it? If I want tolearn a > course in GPL, I go around slowly--I don't find myself wrestling thewheel > trying to keep tire and tarmac together at those times. > > puzzled in Nashville, > David K. > > <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:82p4ha$ine$[email hidden]...:

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> > "[snipped a bit]: many people (better drivers than me, in fact) have > noted that GPL is somewhat unrealistic in that the cars do NOT become > easier to drive as the speeds decrease. This would be expected in a > modern Indy or F1 sim, where the aero aids at speed tend to make the > car easier to drive than it is at low speed, but in GPL's 1967-era > cars, driving around at slow (street) speeds should be MUCH easier

than > driving them at the limit." > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Jeff, Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt. Allow me to help sway your opinion a bit more in my favor (hopefully): As a tester, I'm DEFINITELY not paid -- it's all volunteer work, and quite a bit of it, at that (ask my wife). We sign non-disclosure agreements, which is why you didn't see any early previews (or even reviews) on The IRL Insider site. I'm a sim nut, I love GPL, and I hold DTR in VERY high esteem. There are a lot of things right with this game -- there's definitely room for improvement, but it's one of the best, especially when you consider its ridiculously-low pricetag. I do not receive any payment for any reviews that I conduct, and I desperately try not to steer anybody wrong on anything, whether it's hardware or software. I'm a tightwad, and I appreciate frank, truthful feedback from others, and that's what I try to provide. Also, FWIW, if someone HAD paid me to say good things about something like Spirit Of Speed 1937, I would've found good things to say -- BUT I would have still had to point out the warts, too, and the (sub) NFS- type physics model. I'm a tightwad and a cheapskate by nature, and I never want to spend MY money on a piece of $#!+ that someone has mis- informed me about, so I do my best to try to give people the straight scoop. If anybody would like to PAY me to write good things, my services as a journalist COULD be purchased, but they'd have to settle for the fact that I would NOT *** myself for a few bucks, and I would insist on calling a turkey a turkey, if that's what was necessary. I really like DTR -- it consumes almost all of my time lately. I really like GPL -- I still take time to run Mexico every once in a while (I LOVE that track, for some reason). I like Viper Racing a LOT -- it's not getting played much, but for a while, it was #1. SCGT was fun for a while, but it has failed to hold my interest for some reason. ABC Indy Racing was fun because it's really NOT all that bad on a suitable machine (it's pretty hardware-intensive), and it's the only thing going if you're an IRL fan with a Win95/98 machine and no Rendition card. ICR2 was great in its time (back when I had a Rendition card installed, and before the Win95 incompatibility became too much of a hassle). I've tried NFS3 and NFS:HS -- they were fun for an hour of so, but there's nothing there that really interests me. I love sims, and I really like DTR a LOT. My opinions are purely my own, and it just so happens that as far as DTR is concerned, Don Wilshe and I are in agreement -- it's a great sim. And if Hasbro/Microprose cancels GP3, Ratbag may become THE premier sim producer -- Papy seems to be still resting on their laurels, and as much as I love GPL, if they don't do something soon besides yet another NASCAR 2 rehash, there's not going to be much hope for the company as a whole. That's my $0.02, FWIW. -- JB

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> <all of it deleted> > John, > After noticing that you are part of Wilshe's latest business > venture, I have to question your ability to provide unbiased > comments. Were you paid by Ratbag for any services that Wilshe's > company rendered for them? I've totally dismissed Wilshe's comments > but am giving you the benefit of the doubt. > Jeff

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Jeff, I will echo what John has had to say and I haven't received any compensation from RatBag or Don Wilshe. In fact there have been further changes made to the patch in the physics modelling which push the reality of this game more to the simulation side of the equation. I have had to redo all my setups in order to compensate for the changes. But I will give you one little hint tire wear and the line definitely changes the cars handling over a 20 or 30 lap race. We had a number of races last night were the early leader who was running away with the race burned his tires off the car and finished 3rd or 4th. I found I had to change my line through the race at several tracks in order to maintain my speed. Pete

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> <all of it deleted> > John, > After noticing that you are part of Wilshe's latest business > venture, I have to question your ability to provide unbiased > comments. Were you paid by Ratbag for any services that Wilshe's > company rendered for them? I've totally dismissed Wilshe's comments > but am giving you the benefit of the doubt. > Jeff

Business Venture, hehe.. Get a grip... I'm just a beta tester!! Don Wilshe

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> <all of it deleted> > John, > After noticing that you are part of Wilshe's latest business > venture, I have to question your ability to provide unbiased > comments. Were you paid by Ratbag for any services that Wilshe's > company rendered for them? I've totally dismissed Wilshe's comments > but am giving you the benefit of the doubt. > Jeff

Jeff: > <all of it deleted> > John, > After noticing that you are part of Wilshe's latest business > venture, Jeff I was just a beta tester, same as any of the other 50 people and we worked for free.. paid by > Ratbag for any services that Wilshe's What company. ??? your losing me.!! I've totally dismissed Wilshe's comments but am giving you the benefit of the doubt. DW

Business venture? Getting paid to play auto sims? Can I get an application? Brit -- The Artist formerly known as the Mocker

Those were some good races, too, Pete! <G> In one of them, I turned in the slowest fast lap (meaning everybody else turned at least one lap faster than my own fastest lap) at Oldero in a 25-lap race, and I ended up finishing first! <G> I was slow, but I also didn't burn off my tires, and that allowed me to stay out in front at the end. The physics do feel better with the patch, FWIW -- MUCH more GPL-like. I've been running Mexico in GPL the past couple of days after DTR sessions, just to compare, and I think that whatever they've done to DTR is a major improvement. It still may not be GPL-caliber, but it's very, VERY good! -- JB

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> Jeff, I will echo what John has had to say and I haven't >received any compensation from RatBag or Don Wilshe. > In fact there have been further changes made to the patch >in the physics modelling which push the reality of this >game more to the simulation side of the equation. I have >had to redo all my setups in order to compensate for the >changes. But I will give you one little hint tire wear and >the line definitely changes the cars handling over a 20 or >30 lap race. We had a number of races last night were >the early leader who was running away with the race >burned his tires off the car and finished 3rd or 4th. I >found I had to change my line through the race at several >tracks in order to maintain my speed. > Pete >> <all of it deleted> >> John, >> After noticing that you are part of Wilshe's latest business >> venture, I have to question your ability to provide unbiased >> comments. Were you paid by Ratbag for any services that Wilshe's >> company rendered for them? I've totally dismissed Wilshe's comments >> but am giving you the benefit of the doubt. >> Jeff

I got to watch the Supertrucks qualify for Portland this year and I was right beside the track. My thought as I heard them roaring down the straightway to T1 was that they sounded like VERY pissed off monsters!! I actually pictured some kind of dragon in my mind! (I know that won't impress any of you WC veterans, but the only WC race I got to see was Sears Point and I was too far from the track in 1983 to hear THAT kind of power. It impressed the HELL out of me hearing those trucks - can't wait till next year!) Gunner

John, Can you expand on that point? For I'm not sure I agree, and the point certainly seems counter-intuitive. Doesn't the simple fact that the faster you go, the more apt you to go *off* speak against it? If I want to learn a course in GPL, I go around slowly--I don't find myself wrestling the wheel trying to keep tire and tarmac together at those times. puzzled in Nashville, David K. <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:82p4ha$ine$[email hidden]...: "[snipped a bit]: many people (better drivers than me, in fact) have noted that GPL is somewhat unrealistic in that the cars do NOT become easier to drive as the speeds decrease. This would be expected in a modern Indy or F1 sim, where the aero aids at speed tend to make the car easier to drive than it is at low speed, but in GPL's 1967-era cars, driving around at slow (street) speeds should be MUCH easier than driving them at the limit."

John, Well, I guess it was the "the cars do NOT become easier to drive as the speeds decrease" bit that threw me off. I'll race you for slowest lap around Monaco anytime. I can do this. ;) --DK <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:82ro97$f4d$[email hidden]... > David, > > Re-read my statement, David -- what I was trying to say is that it > SHOULD be MUCH easier to drive around slowly in GPL, but it really > ISN'T all that much easier. >

>in first gear, but they were always shaking beasts at those speeds >acting like they were very impatient and begging to be let loose! >chris r > I got to watch the Supertrucks qualify for Portland this year and I was right beside the track. My thought as I heard them roaring down the straightway to T1 was that they sounded like VERY pissed off monsters!! I actually pictured some kind of dragon in my mind! (I know that won't impress any of you WC veterans, but the only WC race I got to see was Sears Point and I was too far from the track in 1983 to hear THAT kind of power. It impressed the HELL out of me hearing those trucks - can't wait till next year!) Gunner