RC2000 Steering - Some Sim Developers Still Need a Clue

RC2000 isn't the only sim/game to make this mistake, but it's the most recent. The issue is steering sensitivity. Consider this: The average PC steering wheel controller has a maximum angular deflection from side-to-side of about 270 degrees. For comparison, my Pontiac Grand Am steering system has an angular deflection of about 780 degrees. Now imagine that the Pontiac were to be accurately modeled in a sim. If the sim was controlled with a PC steering wheel, the vehicle response to equal steering inputs at the wheel would be roughly three times greater. In case my point needs to be spelled out for some people, This Is Not Good. It's made even worse by the fact that we don't have instant feedback through our shorts about how the car is responding to minute movements of the steering wheel. The time tested method for dealing with this discrepancy between PC wheels and real-life steering systems is the linear/non-linear steering slider. Learn it, know it, live it. Why Do Sims Get Released Without Proper Steering Setup Adjustments? How can RC2000 have shipped without a non-linear steering option? It was painfully obvious the first time I sat down with it that the steering was too sensitive. Don't try to argue realism, the point has already been made about the lack of PC wheel angular resolution. Is it possible that the developers of sims, and I'm including TRI and CARTPR here, mistakenly think that the Dead Zone adjustment is all that's needed? How is having a dead zone in the steering realistic? In the age of USB controllers and PDPI cards, a dead zone adjustment is not needed in anything purporting to be a sim. IMO, AMA Superbike has the best steering configuration options available, hands down. GP2 is second best. Papyrus does OK in GPL, but the Nascar/ICR sims are weak in this area. Viper and SCGT are passable, if I remember correctly. DTR is difficult to figure out. They don't have a linear adjustment for steering, yet the steering works well. I think they must have hard-coded some level of non-linear steering into the sim. If anyone knows for sure, please share. My point to all this is that, it is unfathomable to me that something so basic to creating a good sim as steering setup configurability could be left out. I hope this oversight will be corrected in RC2000, and that everyone else who may be working on a sim will keep this issue in mind! -- Pat Dotson

<snip> Pat, that doesn't equate to a rally scenario, since the steering in any rally car (or F1/2/3, CART, etc.) is much quicker than what we get in street versions. For example, watch in-car shots on SpeedVision of WRC stages, and you will seldom see more than 90 degree rotation either way on the steering. If I had to take my Dodge van racing over the sort of road courses we see in RC, just spinning the d**n steering wheel would wear me out, unless I simply drove around instead of raced around. But, you are still absolutely right that RC steering feels 'way very much too quick, even at its least sensitive settings. Everything else you said is true as well..............nonlinear and less sensitive steering would help tremendously, especially for those using joysticks. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Best system I've seen so far is actually in a flight sim. Jane's F-15 has something that looks like a graphic equaliser. About 10 sliders, each representing a portion of your joystick's range. Lets you control how sensitive the joystick is at any particular position. I'd love to see something like that in a racing sim. Easy to implement too, I imagine. You could have a separate set of sliders for steering, brake, throttle, clutch, etc. -A

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>RC2000 isn't the only sim/game to make this mistake, but it's the >most recent. The issue is steering sensitivity. >Consider this: >The average PC steering wheel controller has a maximum angular >deflection from side-to-side of about 270 degrees. For comparison, >my Pontiac Grand Am steering system has an angular deflection of >about 780 degrees. >Now imagine that the Pontiac were to be accurately modeled in a >sim. If the sim was controlled with a PC steering wheel, the vehicle >response to equal steering inputs at the wheel would be roughly >three times greater. >In case my point needs to be spelled out for some people, This Is >Not Good. It's made even worse by the fact that we don't have >instant feedback through our shorts about how the car is >responding to minute movements of the steering wheel. >The time tested method for dealing with this discrepancy between >PC wheels and real-life steering systems is the linear/non-linear >steering slider. Learn it, know it, live it. >Why Do Sims Get Released Without Proper Steering Setup >Adjustments? >How can RC2000 have shipped without a non-linear steering >option? It was painfully obvious the first time I sat down with it >that the steering was too sensitive. Don't try to argue realism, >the point has already been made about the lack of PC wheel >angular resolution. >Is it possible that the developers of sims, and I'm including TRI >and CARTPR here, mistakenly think that the Dead Zone >adjustment is all that's needed? How is having a dead zone >in the steering realistic? In the age of USB controllers and >PDPI cards, a dead zone adjustment is not needed in >anything purporting to be a sim. >IMO, AMA Superbike has the best steering configuration >options available, hands down. GP2 is second best. >Papyrus does OK in GPL, but the Nascar/ICR sims are >weak in this area. Viper and SCGT are passable, if I >remember correctly. >DTR is difficult to figure out. They don't have a linear adjustment >for steering, yet the steering works well. I think they must have >hard-coded some level of non-linear steering into the sim. If >anyone knows for sure, please share. >My point to all this is that, it is unfathomable to me that something >so basic to creating a good sim as steering setup configurability >could be left out. >I hope this oversight will be corrected in RC2000, and that everyone >else who may be working on a sim will keep this issue in mind! >-- >Pat Dotson

Please, somebody send this message to Randy Cassidy. He listens to us and that is a great idea!!!! Borut

I can't remember the name offhand but I've downloaded a utility that allows you to adjust the deadzone and linearity of joystick/wheel inputs. It runs in the background and can be setup anyway you like using draggable curves for adjustment. Not as good as having it in a game itself, but the next best thing. John -- John Hartridge

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>I can't remember the name offhand but I've downloaded a utility that allows >you to >adjust the deadzone and linearity of joystick/wheel inputs. It >runs in the background and can be setup anyway you like using >draggable curves for adjustment. Not as good as having it in a game >itself, but the next best thing. >John

Here you go.. http://home.att.net/~stickworks/ctfjv320.zip CTFJV320.ZIP contains version 3.20 of the CTFJ Joystick Utility for W95 and W98. CTFJ features improved scaling and deadzone routines and expanded scaling methods over those provided with Windows as well as providing Gain and Range adjustments that allow you tailor your joystick reponse for optimum results with any game or simulation.

I guess you were refering to the CTFJ utility. Go to http://www.stickworks.com to download Gregor

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> I can't remember the name offhand but I've downloaded a utility that allows > you to > adjust the deadzone and linearity of joystick/wheel inputs. It > runs in the background and can be setup anyway you like using > draggable curves for adjustment. Not as good as having it in a game > itself, but the next best thing. > John > -- > John Hartridge

Viper Racing included a "tuning" feature that worked very much like this. You had sliders that you could adjust to set the dead zone AND the range, and you got real-time graphical representations of your steering, throttle, and brake that allowed you to SEE the effect of the range adjustment instantaneously. This is the BEST I've seen so far, and I wish other sim developers would take note. -- JB > Best system I've seen so far is actually in a flight sim. Jane's F- 15 has > something that looks like a graphic equaliser. About 10 sliders, each > representing a portion of your joystick's range. Lets you control how > sensitive the joystick is at any particular position. I'd love to see > something like that in a racing sim. Easy to implement too, I imagine. You > could have a separate set of sliders for steering, brake, throttle, clutch,

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> etc. > -A > >RC2000 isn't the only sim/game to make this mistake, but it's the > >most recent. The issue is steering sensitivity. > >Consider this: > >The average PC steering wheel controller has a maximum angular > >deflection from side-to-side of about 270 degrees. For comparison, > >my Pontiac Grand Am steering system has an angular deflection of > >about 780 degrees. > >Now imagine that the Pontiac were to be accurately modeled in a > >sim. If the sim was controlled with a PC steering wheel, the vehicle > >response to equal steering inputs at the wheel would be roughly > >three times greater. > >In case my point needs to be spelled out for some people, This Is > >Not Good. It's made even worse by the fact that we don't have > >instant feedback through our shorts about how the car is > >responding to minute movements of the steering wheel. > >The time tested method for dealing with this discrepancy between > >PC wheels and real-life steering systems is the linear/non-linear > >steering slider. Learn it, know it, live it. > >Why Do Sims Get Released Without Proper Steering Setup > >Adjustments? > >How can RC2000 have shipped without a non-linear steering > >option? It was painfully obvious the first time I sat down with it > >that the steering was too sensitive. Don't try to argue realism, > >the point has already been made about the lack of PC wheel > >angular resolution. > >Is it possible that the developers of sims, and I'm including TRI > >and CARTPR here, mistakenly think that the Dead Zone > >adjustment is all that's needed? How is having a dead zone > >in the steering realistic? In the age of USB controllers and > >PDPI cards, a dead zone adjustment is not needed in > >anything purporting to be a sim. > >IMO, AMA Superbike has the best steering configuration > >options available, hands down. GP2 is second best. > >Papyrus does OK in GPL, but the Nascar/ICR sims are > >weak in this area. Viper and SCGT are passable, if I > >remember correctly. > >DTR is difficult to figure out. They don't have a linear adjustment > >for steering, yet the steering works well. I think they must have > >hard-coded some level of non-linear steering into the sim. If > >anyone knows for sure, please share. > >My point to all this is that, it is unfathomable to me that something > >so basic to creating a good sim as steering setup configurability > >could be left out. > >I hope this oversight will be corrected in RC2000, and that everyone > >else who may be working on a sim will keep this issue in mind! > >-- > >Pat Dotson

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

That's the one ! John -- John Hartridge

You've described AMA Superbike! It's a great system. -- Pat Dotson >Best system I've seen so far is actually in a flight sim. Jane's F-15 has >something that looks like a graphic equaliser. About 10 sliders, each >representing a portion of your joystick's range. Lets you control how >sensitive the joystick is at any particular position. I'd love to see >something like that in a racing sim. Easy to implement too, I imagine. You >could have a separate set of sliders for steering, brake, throttle, clutch, >etc. >-A >>RC2000 isn't the only sim/game to make this mistake, but it's the >>most recent. The issue is steering sensitivity. >>Consider this: >>IMO, AMA Superbike has the best steering configuration >>options available, hands down. GP2 is second best. >-- >>Pat Dotson

Does CTFJ work with USB controllers? If so I'll try it tonight! --- Pat Dotson >On Mon, 6 Dec 1999 10:29:49 -0000, "John Hartridge" >>I can't remember the name offhand but I've downloaded a utility that allows

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>>you to >>adjust the deadzone and linearity of joystick/wheel inputs. It >>runs in the background and can be setup anyway you like using >>draggable curves for adjustment. Not as good as having it in a game >>itself, but the next best thing. >>John >Here you go.. >http://home.att.net/~stickworks/ctfjv320.zip >CTFJV320.ZIP contains version 3.20 of the CTFJ Joystick Utility >for W95 and W98. CTFJ features improved scaling and deadzone >routines and expanded scaling methods over those provided with >Windows as well as providing Gain and Range adjustments that >allow you tailor your joystick reponse for optimum results with >any game or simulation.

Although it is sensitive, Rally cars are set up totally different to your Pontiac Grand Am, Imagine, trying to take a hairpin, and sopme great speed and having to make a full 780 deg..... it jsut ain't possible, Rally cars or any other form of race acr do not have tobe turned several times, they only turn around the 270 at most that a SIM wheel does

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><snip> >> The average PC steering wheel controller has a maximum angular >> deflection from side-to-side of about 270 degrees. For comparison, >> my Pontiac Grand Am steering system has an angular deflection of >> about 780 degrees. >Pat, that doesn't equate to a rally scenario, since the steering in any >rally car (or F1/2/3, CART, etc.) is much quicker than what we get in >street versions.

Thanks for the info. What you say makes sense, and I really know nothing about Rally cars. With stock settings in RC2000, I don't even make 9 degree steering movements. I beleive that a rally car has quicker steering than a street car, but for whatever reason, that steering can't be duplicated with a PC wheel. Yep. -- PD

OK, here is a great way to make the steering in RC2000 less sensitive. Download CTFJV from the following link: >>I can't remember the name offhand but I've downloaded a utility that allows >>adjust the deadzone and linearity of joystick/wheel inputs. It >Here you go.. >http://home.att.net/~stickworks/ctfjv320.zip CTFJV gives five different settings for applying non-linear movement to a joystick axis. I used it with my ACT Labs Force RS wheel connected to a USB port. So, apparently, this program will work with practically any wheel. After installing CTFJV, I settled on adding two clicks on the linear adjustment (out of a maximum of five). RC2000 is a piece of cake to drive with slightly less sensitive steering. How this adjustment got left out of the game I'll never know. My stage times improved by more than 30 seconds right off the bat. I can keep the car on the gravel roads at 110 mph (or is that KmH?), and flick the car right around any turn. If you think RC2000 steering is too sensitive, try CTFJV. My impression f RC2000, by the way, is that it's pretty good. But, it's not a GPL killer. It's not even close. It's as good as just about anything else right now, though. -- Pat Dotson

I felt RC2000 was an excellant rally game. Sure its not a GPL or N3 but its a rally game, unique idea of racing and the graphics are state of the art. I suggest any true race sim fan to pick it up for his collection. Its doing things that you havent seen yet in other racing game in terms or graphics and speed... The bumper view is super fast!! PassedYa

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> OK, here is a great way to make the steering in > RC2000 less sensitive. Download CTFJV from > the following link: > >>I can't remember the name offhand but I've downloaded a utility that > allows > >>adjust the deadzone and linearity of joystick/wheel inputs. It > >Here you go.. > >http://home.att.net/~stickworks/ctfjv320.zip > CTFJV gives five different settings for applying non-linear movement > to a joystick axis. I used it with my ACT Labs Force RS wheel > connected to a USB port. So, apparently, this program will work > with practically any wheel. > After installing CTFJV, I settled on adding two clicks on the linear > adjustment (out of a maximum of five). > RC2000 is a piece of cake to drive with slightly less sensitive > steering. How this adjustment got left out of the game I'll never know. > My stage times improved by more than 30 seconds right off the bat. > I can keep the car on the gravel roads at 110 mph (or is that KmH?), > and flick the car right around any turn. > If you think RC2000 steering is too sensitive, try CTFJV. > My impression f RC2000, by the way, is that it's pretty good. > But, it's not a GPL killer. It's not even close. It's as good as > just about anything else right now, though. > -- > Pat Dotson