GPL: Details on Force Feedback

You guys that have a FF wheel, could you give a more detailed information on how it feels in GPL (or in N3)? Does it really give an instant and precise feedback, or that's just something you'll be turning off when trying a real fast lap? Is it something you'll never know how to live without, or does it feel more like a nice toy? Thanks Mauro Diaz ----- Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free Usenet News via the Web ----- ----- http://newsone.net/ on every subject. ----- NewsOne.Net prohibits users from posting spam. If this or other posts

Not sure about anyone else, but personally I don't like the FF effects in GPL at all. I'm using the Microsoft FF wheel. Nascar 3 on the other hand works wonderfully with force feedback. I can't stand it switched off. You can feel the banking of the car, you know very well when you've damaged a wheel, you know when you have an impact and even when you're spinning. Second best FF effects to NFS 3, to be honest. Can't live without it! Ken, - Remove 'nospamallowed' from my email address to reply. - ICQ #53954494

>You guys that have a FF wheel, could you give a more detailed information on >how it feels in GPL (or in N3)? GPL has the best FF implementation in the world, bar none. You can feel not only the wheels and grip, but the weight of the car moving in three dimensions. It's really incredible. It's only the second sim where the FF is good enough to actually help you drive better (the other is Viper Racing, also a very good implementation thought not *quite* in the class of GPL). Do a deja.com search of GPL and "force feedback" to read the many raves about it when it first came out. Joe McGinn _________________________ GA-Sports Writer http://www.ga-sports.com/

>impact and even when you're spinning. Second best FF effects to NFS 3, >to be honest. Uhg. NFS (3 & 4) as TERRIBLE force feedback. Nothing but cheesy collision and road tecture effects. No information whatsoever on what the car is actually doing. Joe McGinn _________________________ GA-Sports Writer http://www.ga-sports.com/

Don't know about N3, but in GPL I think the feedback is instant and precise. It adds another dimension to the game. I'll never turn it off for a fast lap cause when you get used to it I think you drive faster with it on. And yes, it's something I couldn't live without now that I know how it feels. Takes some time getting used to it though. If you clip a curb you'll have problems controlling the wheel (=wheel "jumping around") leading to problems controlling the car. I still have these problems at Silverstone in GPL. /Martin

>You guys that have a FF wheel, could you give a more detailed information on >how it feels in GPL (or in N3)? Does it really give an instant and precise >feedback, or that's just something you'll be turning off when trying a real >fast lap? Is it something you'll never know how to live without, or does it >feel more like a nice toy? I have had a Logitech Wingman Force for about 2 1/2 months now, and I honestly don't know how I drove GPL without FF... I have shattered my PBs everywhere I've raced since... Go for it, you won't regret your decision. I don't know about N3, but GPL and Viper Racing have great, realistic FF effects. Richard. -- Richard Bellavance Enter-Net Inc. Phone: (450) 652-7189 #16 Systems Administrator/ (514) 990-1683 #16 Analyst-Programmer Fax: (450) 652-6973

I can't speak for N3, but the FF in GPL is incredible. I have a LWFF and I couldn't live without it anymore. I can feel the weight changes, front tires losing grip, when I'm about to lose the rear, the FF tells me "Would you please give some opposite lock, thank you!". Different cars feel different, even different setups do (I can clearly feel a difference, when I change the front dampers one click). I can also feel hitting the bump ***s and when I've slightly bent the suspension I can tell it by FF before I fly off next corner. All in all FF helped my consistency very much in GPL and it didn't hurt my speed in any way (when I'm still too slow, that's me, not FF :-). *BUT* it is very important to find good settings for FF in GPL. When the forces are set too big and the latency too low, you may have to fight the wheel. Since these settings are very individual (similar to car-setups) and differ from wheel to wheel, you'll have to play around with them until you find 'yours'. Peter Vienna, Austria

Everyone here seems to be saying that FF is brilliant in GPL, but I can't get used to it. I have a the MSFF wheel, and I much prefer to play GPL with the FF turned off. I just can't seem to steer the wheel from left to right quick enough to correct a slide with the FF turned on. I know this is more realistic, but I seem to be able to race quicker with it turned off. Scott

Seconded, NFS3 and 4 have crappy FF implementation, GPL, and Viper have excellent FF and N3 and NL have FF which is quite good . GPL you can feel everything the car is doing. ie weight shift, grip loss etc. Viper you can feel nearly everything the car is doing. N3 and NL you can feel if the the car is gripping or losing grip. MTM2 feel grip levels but too many rumble and crash effects NFS 3 & 4 you feel just the collision effects etc. I can't feel any useful information. BTW I use a MSFF wheel with software 3.02 and the settings at : return to centre = off and force feedback = low -- Ian Parker UKGPL League http://members.xoom.com/ukgpl/index.html http://www.ukgpl.com -- > >impact and even when you're spinning. Second best FF effects to NFS 3, > >to be honest. > Uhg. NFS (3 & 4) as TERRIBLE force feedback. Nothing but cheesy > collision and road tecture effects. No information whatsoever on what > the car is actually doing. > Joe McGinn > _________________________ > GA-Sports Writer > http://www.ga-sports.com/

You must have your settings crossed up somewhere Scott. As with real life independantly sprung cars, the forces reacted through the chassis will _help_ you to steer into the slide. The real problem is not over correcting! Don't worry Mauro, if you do your homework (reading Alison's comments on FF wheel setup is a must) you will benifit from using FF in GPL. I'm faster and more consistent everywhere. I've yet to rewire my pedals and the LWFF to be able to try N3 with FF enabled, but it's hard to see how the same team could have gone wrong with the FF in that game. Jan. ---- <Snip>

I can only speak about the Logitech Wing Man FF and GPL. While going through Eau Rouge at Spa, I can feel the chassis flexing through the wheel. Its that good. Also, I can feel a wheel loosing grip sooner.

>I have a the MSFF wheel, and I much prefer to play GPL with the FF turned >off. I just can't seem to steer the wheel from left to right quick enough Try turning the damping variable way down. I use a MSFF too and I use force_feedback_damping = 2. It makes a huge difference for me - much quicker steering. I don't know what the consensus is regarding the "correct" settings for the MSFF but try playing with the variables, it's all very subjective anyway.

The settings make a big difference. When I got my LWFF and used the default settings I did not like what I felt from the wheel. After trying suggested GPL settings and experimenting its great. I have a very good custom made wheel with increased Turing (760 deg) through timing belt and pulleys all mounted on ball bearings, but I use the LWFF instead because of FF. The LWFF has plastic bushing that are not real smooth, and short throw pedals, so now I am customizing them. I think every brand of wheel and how they are setup are going to have a different FF feel so you will have many different opinions. . Lutrell

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>>I have a the MSFF wheel, and I much prefer to play GPL with the FF turned >>off. I just can't seem to steer the wheel from left to right quick enough >Try turning the damping variable way down. I use a MSFF too and I use >force_feedback_damping = 2. It makes a huge difference for me - much >quicker steering. I don't know what the consensus is regarding the >"correct" settings for the MSFF but try playing with the variables, it's all >very subjective anyway.

Feel the chassis flexing? That's it, I'm getting a FF wheel. Marty

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> > I can only speak about the Logitech Wing Man FF and GPL. > > While going through Eau Rouge at Spa, I can feel the chassis flexing > through > > the wheel. Its that good. Also, I can feel a wheel loosing grip sooner. > > I agree GPL's force feedback effect's are the best of any sim.

Ken, There must be something wrong with the way you've setup FF in GPL. It is really tremendous with my LWFF. I know that the logitech is somewhat better rated than the Microsoft when it comes to GPL but the difference can't be that big. I've read a lot of posts discussing FF in GPL and almost everybody agrees it's the best there is at this moment with Viper as a good runner up. Amongst them are people who really know how the FF should react because they've been there themselves (in other words: they actually drove or even drive racecars in the real world). Could it be you like the effects (like huge impacts when hitting a wall) above accuracy? GPL does give you the proper information via FF to control the car better, e.g. you notice when the car starts to slide because the steering gets lighter. So to come to an answer to the original poster: I couldn't live without my (LW)FF when it comes to racing with GPL! Jan.

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> >You guys that have a FF wheel, could you give a more detailed information on > >how it feels in GPL (or in N3)? Does it really give an instant and precise > >feedback, or that's just something you'll be turning off when trying a real > >fast lap? Is it something you'll never know how to live without, or does it > >feel more like a nice toy? > Not sure about anyone else, but personally I don't like the FF effects > in GPL at all. I'm using the Microsoft FF wheel. > Nascar 3 on the other hand works wonderfully with force feedback. I > can't stand it switched off. You can feel the banking of the car, you > know very well when you've damaged a wheel, you know when you have an > impact and even when you're spinning. Second best FF effects to NFS 3, > to be honest. > Can't live without it! > Ken, > - Remove 'nospamallowed' from my email address to reply. > - ICQ #53954494

J.H.Hovius.vcf < 1K Download

On Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:40:06 +0100, Jan Hovius

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>There must be something wrong with the way you've setup FF in GPL. It is really >tremendous with my LWFF. I know that the logitech is somewhat better rated than >the Microsoft when it comes to GPL but the difference can't be that big. I've >read a lot of posts discussing FF in GPL and almost everybody agrees it's the >best there is at this moment with Viper as a good runner up. Amongst them are >people who really know how the FF should react because they've been there >themselves (in other words: they actually drove or even drive racecars in the >real world). >Could it be you like the effects (like huge impacts when hitting a wall) above >accuracy? GPL does give you the proper information via FF to control the car >better, e.g. you notice when the car starts to slide because the steering gets >lighter. So to come to an answer to the original poster: I couldn't live without >my (LW)FF when it comes to racing with GPL!

From the enormous number of responses I've received to this post, I really must check my GPL FF settings, as it does seem likely that something is wrong somewhere, and not that the FF effects are bad from the game itself. Ken, - Remove 'nospamallowed' from my email address to reply. - ICQ #53954494

Just for the record (and Mauro's benefit), I agree with your assessment of FFB in those titles 100%. Marc.

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> Seconded, NFS3 and 4 have crappy FF implementation, GPL, and Viper have > excellent FF and N3 and NL have FF which is quite good . > GPL you can feel everything the car is doing. ie weight shift, grip loss > etc. > Viper you can feel nearly everything the car is doing. > N3 and NL you can feel if the the car is gripping or losing grip. > MTM2 feel grip levels but too many rumble and crash effects > NFS 3 & 4 you feel just the collision effects etc. I can't feel any useful > information. > BTW I use a MSFF wheel with software 3.02 and the settings at : return to > centre = off and force feedback = low > -- > Ian Parker > UKGPL League > http://members.xoom.com/ukgpl/index.html > http://www.ukgpl.com > -- > > >impact and even when you're spinning. Second best FF effects to NFS 3, > > >to be honest. > > Uhg. NFS (3 & 4) as TERRIBLE force feedback. Nothing but cheesy > > collision and road tecture effects. No information whatsoever on what > > the car is actually doing. > > Joe McGinn > > _________________________ > > GA-Sports Writer > > http://www.ga-sports.com/

Here is how to upgrade your LWFF with ball bearings. Machining required... http://w1.111.telia.com/~u11103812/lwff.htm -- Jaz Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

>Seconded, NFS3 and 4 have crappy FF implementation, GPL, and Viper have >excellent FF and N3 and NL have FF which is quite good . >BTW I use a MSFF wheel with software 3.02 and the settings at : return to >centre = off and force feedback = low I have a LWFF, and I agree with your assessments completely. Joe McGinn _________________________ GA-Sports Writer http://www.ga-sports.com/

Thanks, I already got that post and I have my bearings ordered. :-) Lutrell

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>Here is how to upgrade your LWFF with ball bearings. Machining >required... >http://w1.111.telia.com/~u11103812/lwff.htm >-- >Jaz >Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ >Before you buy.

I finally got my LWFF today, and set it up according to Alison Hine's suggestion. But I don't think the wheel is working properly: it feels very notchy and I can not feel the bumps when the tires hit gravel or curb, yet if I hit a guard rail or a fence, the impact comes through the wheel OK. The whole experience is surreal to say the least. I am using Wingman 3.30 and DXTweak but without Wingman Profiler. The setting are as follow: [Joy] allow_force_feedback = 1 ; Use FF if available force_feedback_damping = 5.00000 ; Damping Coefficent force_feedback_latency = 0.00000 ; Latency (secs) max-Steering_torque = 300.000000 ; Steering Torque Wingman Setup Overal Effect = 150 Spring Effect = 150 Damper Effect = 25 Center Spring Off Any help or suggestion would be appreciated... Thanks, Jaz Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

You have to set some latency for the thing to work properly. See Alison's pages for the reason why. Bye, Leo

Yes, increasing the latency did help. But the wheel still feels strange to me, shouldn't I be able to feel the bumps on the road or gravel? The only time that the "special effect" kicks in seem to be when I hit something hard like hitting the guardrail or going across a curb. Am I expecting something not programmed in GPL. I bring this up because in the arcade style games like NFS, there seems to be more stuff happening, more road condition are transmitted back through the wheel. Thanks, Jaz Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

That's hard to tell <g> The FF effect is not flawless, but seems to work well enough generally although the responses don't always make sense to me either. I use Alison's settings, and all I know is that they're way too powerful on my system. Some others complain of too weak forces with the same settings, so it may be system related. Bye, Leo