How to drive a race car without spinning out?

Hi, I'm wondering if someone can point me in the right direction on the above topic. Some simlulators aren't so bad because you can turn on stability / traction aids (like in GTR) but other programs like GPL don't seem to have such things. I'd really like to be able to drive a simlated race car without the aids on and without spinning around all over the place, but I'm not sure how to go about it. I'm guessing the best way would be to take it real slow and gradually increase the pace? Is this what real race drivers do? Is there any doco around the internet that explains things clearly? The car racing simlators I have so far are GTR, GPL, and NR2003. Regards, Mike.

"Mr T" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Hi, > > I'm wondering if someone can point me in the right direction on the > above topic. Some simlulators aren't so bad because you can turn on > stability / traction aids (like in GTR) but other programs like GPL > don't seem to have such things. I'd really like to be able to drive a > simlated race car without the aids on and without spinning around all > over the place, but I'm not sure how to go about it. I'm guessing the > best way would be to take it real slow and gradually increase the > pace? Is this what real race drivers do? Is there any doco around the > internet that explains things clearly? > > The car racing simlators I have so far are GTR, GPL, and NR2003.

Certainly this can be taught without post-graduate study in vehicle dynamics. To state the obvious, the rear spins around because it destabilized. A reasonably well setup car will tend toward neutral. This also means you can force over- and understeer rather easily with weight transfer. Transferring too much weight to the front in a turn will destabilize the rear. The end result, as you now know, is a spin. Other things can destabilize the rear. A harsh gear shift. Rough road surface. Too eager on the gas. You'll just have to learn to drive it. Get some weight back on the rear with gas. Slow sooner so you can do so. Learn what neutral throttle means. If it really is too loose, tends too much toward oversteer, learn to adjust the front/rear cornering stiffness. Whole books can be written on that. You'll find whole books and too many web articles on that. Chances are good that the default setups already tend toward understeer, not oversteer. Trust for the moment that it's supposed to be like that, and should be even looser. Just focus on learning to drive it. If it drives like your Oldsmobile, it won't be fast on the track. The best thing you can do right now is to turn *off* the driver aids, and learn to drive it. Speed will come by itself.

Hey Mike, may I suggest you buy a copy of the official Skip Barber manual called "Going faster - mastering the art of race car driving". Most of the stuff in there is applicable in today's sims, and also it's a great title full of funny quotes from the pros, so you'll have a great time reading it. Also, Carrol Smith's "Drive to Win" is an excellent title, focussing more on the setup aspect. For starters, if you spin your rear end exiting the turns, be more gentle on the throttle. Progression from idle to full throttle should take a couple of seconds, so don't just "stomp" on the throttle, but apply it gradually. Cheers, uwe (Not associated with Skip Barber, sadly. ;-) -- GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

"Mr T" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Hi, > > I'm wondering if someone can point me in the right direction on the > above topic. Some simlulators aren't so bad because you can turn on > stability / traction aids (like in GTR) but other programs like GPL > don't seem to have such things. I'd really like to be able to drive a > simlated race car without the aids on and without spinning around all > over the place, but I'm not sure how to go about it. I'm guessing the > best way would be to take it real slow and gradually increase the > pace? Is this what real race drivers do? Is there any doco around the > internet that explains things clearly? > > The car racing simlators I have so far are GTR, GPL, and NR2003. > > Regards, > Mike. >

Many years ago in SCCA driving school (I had a TR3) the instructor told me to do all my slowing down (downshifting/braking) before entering the turn and then add acceleration as you exit the apex. This doesn't mean to floor it all at once, but gradually accelerate and eventually you will know how your particular car reacts. The TR3 had a tendency to "push" or understeer on entry so a bit of trailbraking on entry kicked the rear out a bit and got me pointed in the right direction. All these things relate to sims too. Find one car, then learn it. GTR2 and rfactor seem to be fairly accutate as does Race 07. Get your car "whoa'ed up" before the turns and let it roll through the center and go from there. Ed

I'll second that recommendation. It's an excellent book, fantastically detailed, and easily the best of its kind. Sadly, it seems to be the only of its kind, despite the number of other books written. Very highly recommended. http://www.amazon.com/Going-Faster-Mastering-Race-Driving/dp/0837602262/ref=ed_oe_p "Uwe Sch�rkamp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Hey Mike, > > may I suggest you buy a copy of the official Skip Barber manual called > "Going faster - mastering the art of race car driving". Most of the > stuff in there is applicable in today's sims, and also it's a great > title full of funny quotes from the pros, so you'll have a great time > reading it. Also, Carrol Smith's "Drive to Win" is an excellent title, > focussing more on the setup aspect. > > For starters, if you spin your rear end exiting the turns, be more > gentle on the throttle. Progression from idle to full throttle should > take a couple of seconds, so don't just "stomp" on the throttle, but > apply it gradually. > > Cheers, uwe > > (Not associated with Skip Barber, sadly. ;-) > > > > -- > GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

On Nov 13, 10:01 am, "MikeWhy" <[email hidden]> wrote: > I'll second that recommendation. It's an excellent book, I don't think you need to buy a book to drive these cars. 1) Start slow, don't jump in the GP cars right away, Trainers or advanced trainers are there for a reason. 2) Pick a short relatively simple track (Monza or Lime Rock Park for GPL) where you can remember what you did wrong at an individual corner from one lap to another. 3) Concentrate on your braking points and brake pedal forces, try to brake as hard as possible as straight as possible WITHOUT locking up the wheels. Learn to recognize what that sounds/feels like. 4) Concentrate on turn in and apexes. When you're satisfied you got a particular corner right try to repeat it exactly next time. 5) Ignore your lap times! Master the above and your lap times will drop away magicly. Try to minimize your lap times without the above and you're doomed.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Mr T) wrote: > *From:* Mr T <[email hidden]> > *Date:* Tue, 13 Nov 2007 00:18:32 -0000 Hi Mike.... Many years ago I wrote a guide for GPL which should be exactly what you need. You can find the guide here: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/petergagg/21gpltip.htm I think it was also included on Eagle Womans website, who was a very prominant member of the early GPL community, as she thought it was a good guide (high praise indeed!) Although this guide was written for GPL quite a few years ago, the basic ideas and techniques will also work on any good simulator. Learn to drive the car, before learning to drive the car fast, and learn the layout of the tracks. Ultimately, there is no quick fix or secret, it basically boils down to practice, practice and more practice. Good luck. 8-) *Peter*

Mr T wrote:

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> Hi, > > I'm wondering if someone can point me in the right direction on the > above topic. Some simlulators aren't so bad because you can turn on > stability / traction aids (like in GTR) but other programs like GPL > don't seem to have such things. I'd really like to be able to drive a > simlated race car without the aids on and without spinning around all > over the place, but I'm not sure how to go about it. I'm guessing the > best way would be to take it real slow and gradually increase the > pace? Is this what real race drivers do? Is there any doco around the > internet that explains things clearly? > > The car racing simlators I have so far are GTR, GPL, and NR2003. > > Regards, > Mike. >

Maybe you just need to lower the sensitivity of your gas pedal in the game. If it is too sensitive then it will make you spin much easier.

All great tips for beginners. "Going Faster" is a great read and if your interest in sim racing continues it will give some good advice to extract a bit more speed. My number 1 rule for beginners....no driver aids. NEVER turn them on in the first place. (Unless you don't have a clutch of course, then the auto clutch is acceptable.) Yes, it is frustrating and hard to come to terms with cars like in GPL, but in the long run your sense of achievement in first controlling the cars successfully and then setting personal best (PB) after personal best will far outweigh the time and effort to get there. Sadly, only those in the sim racing genre will appreciate your accomplishment, so don't go bragging to co-workers about your PB at Rouen in the Lotus! A reminder that I give to myself when starting a new sim, especially one with tracks I have not seen before. You CANNOT go fast until you know where you are going. You MUST learn the tracks first before you can even consider running anywhere near the limit (of the car or even your own limits). Good Luck!

On Nov 14, 10:13 am, Darus <[email hidden]> wrote: > All great tips for beginners. "Going Faster" is a great read and if > your interest in sim racing continues it will give I practiced, practiced, practiced in GPL for years and got to a comfortable point, but a friend loaned me the Skip Barber "Going faster - mastering the art of race car driving". I was pleasantly surprised how much I learned from it. It drove home the importance of concentrating on 1) line through a corner, 2) exit speed and line exiting a corner and 3) not worrying too much about braking until you have those other 2 things somewhat mastered.

> It drove home the importance of concentrating on 1) line through a > corner, 2) exit speed and line exiting a corner and 3) not worrying > too much about braking until you have those other 2 things somewhat > mastered. True but for me I couldn't get my corner line/exit right until I learned to brake consistantly otherwise my entry was all over the place. Oh yeah and 6) concentrate on one circuit at a time, no matter how tempting the next new track is, pick one track master it and the car then it will make the next track much easier to learn. I found joining a league with a fixed schedule really helped focus my practice efforts on the upcoming track in exclusion to all others.

"mcewena" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Oh yeah and 6) concentrate on one circuit at a time, no matter how > tempting the next new track is, pick one track master it and the car > then it will make the next track much easier to learn. I found > joining a league with a fixed schedule really helped focus my practice > efforts on the upcoming track in exclusion to all others. But, :) don't get discouraged and stuck in a rut. Definitely give yourself a break and head off to another track when your times get "stuck" at a plateau.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > On Nov 13, 10:01 am, "MikeWhy" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > I'll second that recommendation. It's an excellent book, > > I don't think you need to buy a book to drive these cars. > > No, you don't need to buy a book, but Going Faster - Mastering the Art of Race Driving is a great book anyhow. Lots of great info. I highly recommend it. MRSisson -- LOAD "GPL",8 SEARCHING FOR GPL LOADING READY. RUN

mcewena wrote: > Oh yeah and 6) concentrate on one circuit at a time, no matter how > tempting the next new track is, pick one track master it and the car > then it will make the next track much easier to learn. I found > joining a league with a fixed schedule really helped focus my practice > efforts on the upcoming track in exclusion to all others. > Yea, doing this helps a lot. In fact, the only track I ever mastered in GPL was Monza.

On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 13:37:19 GMT, Troglodyte <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>mcewena wrote: > >> Oh yeah and 6) concentrate on one circuit at a time, no matter how >> tempting the next new track is, pick one track master it and the car >> then it will make the next track much easier to learn. I found >> joining a league with a fixed schedule really helped focus my practice >> efforts on the upcoming track in exclusion to all others. >> > >Yea, doing this helps a lot. In fact, the only track I ever mastered in >GPL was Monza.

There were more tracks in GPL? <g> Cheers! Remco

"mcewena" wrote... >> <snip> > I don't think you need to buy a book to drive these cars. > > 1) Start slow, don't jump in the GP cars right away, > Trainers or advanced trainers are there for a reason. True that... another possibility is to try the '65 mod. Those cars will really teach you how to carry speed. I don't think books really accellerated my learning curve (racing and talking to better drivers did), but a lot of them are great reads anyway and it does help to know what one should be doing. Don't get the Senna one, though, as it's just a testament to the man's inability to explain how he did what he did. > 2) Pick a short relatively simple track (Monza or Lime > Rock Park for GPL) where you can remember what > you did wrong at an individual corner from one lap to > another. Indeed, pick somewhere where blowing a lap is no big deal. Brand Hatch Indy, e.g. Among the original tracks, I think Kyalami is a great learning tool.

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> 3) Concentrate on your braking points and brake pedal > forces, try to brake as hard as possible as straight as > possible WITHOUT locking up the wheels. Learn to > recognize what that sounds/feels like. > > 4) Concentrate on turn in and apexes. When you're > satisfied you got a particular corner right try to repeat it > exactly next time. > > 5) Ignore your lap times! Master the above and your > lap times will drop away magicly.

This is the key... concentrate on technique and speed will come automatically. Really, it will. > Try to minimize your lap times without the above > and you're doomed. Very true, I see drivers who've been "trying to go quickly" for years still fail every week. People have pointed out their errors a thousand times, but they're simply not willing to accept one has to drive within one's means to get better Jan. =---

> Very true, I see drivers who've been "trying to go quickly" for years still > fail every week. People have pointed out their errors a thousand times, but > they're simply not willing to accept one has to drive within one's means to > get better Of course there's another school of thought among some frequent ras posters that if you're slow it's all Hillary Clinton's fault ;)

Me thinks you all jumped to 2 conclusions, more than I am. 1st, does this guy have a wheel or driving by keyboard? that is the 1st question, because if he's simming with keyboard or those silly controllers like playstation/Xbox's have he's F'n crazy, and a lost cause on a SIM... & I dont care what f'n book he reads, he's gonna be lucky to make a lap around the car carriers that the Westbrother's drew.. 2nd, what KIND of wheel, can we help him get it setup correctly? How many simmers have we heard from {in the last 10 years (including me)} that couldn't drive for "sheit" until finally someone shared the settings they used for the wheels, be the wheel Thrust crappers, MicroSucks or LogiSacs, Thomas or even Ecci's, if you don't set them up right in windows as well as in games, you get screwed by how it relates input into the games. 3rd, this is all assuming he wasn't a troller.. So will the real Mr.T please answer up? "mcewena" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> >> Very true, I see drivers who've been "trying to go quickly" for years >> still >> fail every week. People have pointed out their errors a thousand times, >> but >> they're simply not willing to accept one has to drive within one's means >> to >> get better > > Of course there's another school of thought among some frequent ras > posters that if you're slow it's all Hillary Clinton's fault ;)

On Nov 17, 5:50 am, "PlowBoy," <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> Me thinks you all jumped to 2 conclusions, more than I am. > > 1st, does this guy have a wheel or driving by keyboard? that is the 1st > question, because if he's simming with keyboard or those silly controllers > like playstation/Xbox's have he's F'n crazy, and a lost cause on a SIM... & > I dont care what f'n book he reads, he's gonna be lucky to make a lap around > the car carriers that the Westbrother's drew.. > > 2nd, what KIND of wheel, can we help him get it setup correctly? How many > simmers have we heard from {in the last 10 years (including me)} that > couldn't drive for "sheit" until finally someone shared the settings they > used for the wheels, be the wheel Thrust crappers, MicroSucks or LogiSacs, > Thomas or even Ecci's, if you don't set them up right in windows as well as > in games, you get screwed by how it relates input into the games. > > 3rd, this is all assuming he wasn't a troller.. > > So will the real Mr.T please answer up?"mcewena" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >

Before you throw stones at me I just have to make the point that I don't have a lot of money to spend on expensive controls (like a G25). Instead, I purchased a $30 usb connected analogue pad that seems to do the trick. Of course, it's not as good as the expensive option but at least it's direct and in my opinion better than a cheap unmanageable wheel. I'm able to use analogue controls for steering and speed which helps. I've always liked GPL but haven't been good enough to get around the track. I'd like to thank Peter for his article: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/petergagg/21gpltip.htm which has helped me drive without spinning or crashing (not the quickest in the world, but it's a start). Kyalami and Monza are my favourite tracks at the moment. A lot of the stuff in there is common sense, but it helps to be reminded which things you should concentrate on first. Thankyou everyone for your helpful responses - I really do appreciate it. Mr T. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/petergagg/21gpltip.htm

"Mr T" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Nov 17, 5:50 am, "PlowBoy," <[email hidden]> wrote: > > Before you throw stones at me I just have to make the point that I > don't have a lot of money to spend on expensive controls (like a G25). > Instead, I purchased a $30 usb connected analogue pad that seems to do > the trick. Of course, it's not as good as the expensive option but at > least it's direct and in my opinion better than a cheap unmanageable > wheel. I'm able to use analogue controls for steering and speed which > helps. > > I've always liked GPL but haven't been good enough to get around the > track. I'd like to thank Peter for his article: > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/petergagg/21gpltip.htm > which has helped me drive without spinning or crashing (not the > quickest in the world, but it's a start). Kyalami and Monza are my > favourite tracks at the moment. A lot of the stuff in there is common > sense, but it helps to be reminded which things you should concentrate > on first. > > Thankyou everyone for your helpful responses - I really do appreciate > it. > > Mr T.

It's bizzarre, but I have a wheel and pedals but seem to consistently post faster laptimes using my microsoft force feedback joystick! Very wierd. I guess I feel like I have more direct control of the car with the joystick and it seems to work well for me with GPL and GTR2. RobP

(Plowboy from home) least you weren't 2 of 3 guesses (trolling or keyboard racer) like I was betting on, and yeah I wholly understand the money thing VS wheels. But the pad, will be very hard to overcome, because I believe you don't actually give gas or brake inputs in a "positional" relativity for the game, let alone the improbability to being precise with a throttle button. IE in real life how far the the brake/gas pedal moves, lest say "X" amount of travel (albeit over simplified) means X amount of braking force was applied to the car, The sim is written to try and be somewhat parallel to that principle. But you have a button that is either fully depressed or not pressed, where as the rest of us have somewhere between 0-255 or more different places along an axis of travel to relate how much brake I wish to have applied to the "sim" car. As far I I have experimented, the same is not true with most of those gaming pads, where if you don't have some precision in braking/throttle/steering, then your movements of such a device is simply a crapshoot of whether it works out in the sim or not..! where as a plain old game, like Need for speeds, MX madness and the like, and the like, they code the game knowing dang well that with the gamepad, you are instead of giving precise inputs, you are essentially rolling the dice as you would in a turn based game like D&D or some shit. So it goes something like this... "Lets see here I'm headed for the chicane, at 99.478 miles per hour, fifth gear nearly touching the left wall, the run is uphill and sweeps out to a nice hairpin 100 yards down the track. So I pick up my 2 eight sided, and with my experience points, and elf/magic level (assuming I don't cast a spell for luck), I have to roll only a total of 10 or better to make this corner..." Well, essentially, that is what you're doing, and it just doesn't cut it in the sim world, really. But one thing is sure, you will get to know the tracks pretty well at least, and when you stumble across a deal on a wheel, if you aren't burnt out, you will really appreciate it. Good luck Mr. T. "Mr T" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Nov 17, 5:50 am, "PlowBoy," <[email hidden]> wrote: >> Me thinks you all jumped to 2 conclusions, more than I am. >> >> 1st, does this guy have a wheel or driving by keyboard? that is the 1st >> question, because if he's simming with keyboard or those silly >> controllers >> like playstation/Xbox's have he's F'n crazy, and a lost cause on a SIM... >> & >> I dont care what f'n book he reads, he's gonna be lucky to make a lap >> around >> the car carriers that the Westbrother's drew.. >> >> 2nd, what KIND of wheel, can we help him get it setup correctly? How >> many >> simmers have we heard from {in the last 10 years (including me)} that >> couldn't drive for "sheit" until finally someone shared the settings they >> used for the wheels, be the wheel Thrust crappers, MicroSucks or >> LogiSacs, >> Thomas or even Ecci's, if you don't set them up right in windows as well >> as >> in games, you get screwed by how it relates input into the games. >> >> 3rd, this is all assuming he wasn't a troller.. >> >> So will the real Mr.T please answer up?"mcewena" >> <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> > > Before you throw stones at me I just have to make the point that I > don't have a lot of money to spend on expensive controls (like a G25). > Instead, I purchased a $30 usb connected analogue pad that seems to do > the trick. Of course, it's not as good as the expensive option but at > least it's direct and in my opinion better than a cheap unmanageable > wheel. I'm able to use analogue controls for steering and speed which > helps. > > I've always liked GPL but haven't been good enough to get around the > track. I'd like to thank Peter for his article: > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/petergagg/21gpltip.htm > which has helped me drive without spinning or crashing (not the > quickest in the world, but it's a start). Kyalami and Monza are my > favourite tracks at the moment. A lot of the stuff in there is common > sense, but it helps to be reminded which things you should concentrate > on first. > > Thankyou everyone for your helpful responses - I really do appreciate > it. > > Mr T. > > > > > > > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/petergagg/21gpltip.htm >

"PlowBoy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4Ht0j.60328$[email hidden]...

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> (Plowboy from home) > > betting on, and yeah I wholly understand the money thing VS wheels. But > the pad, will be very hard to overcome, because I believe you don't > actually give gas or brake inputs in a "positional" relativity for the > game, let alone the improbability to being precise with a throttle button. > IE in

There are gamepads with dual analog sticks, and even analog "triggers". It's far from ideal for driving, but if that's what you have, that's what you've got. Heck, I vaguely remember a time before forcefeedback and TrackIR. :) It's mostly a mental thing. Even with a great wheel, we're still missing the rest of the feedback. Lateral g's; middle ear yaw rate; vibrational cues; and even the graphics are somewhat delayed and not quite 20/10. We still manage somehow. Getting your head wrapped around the problem of going fast is a necessary first step. You don't need a megabuck wheel to do that. All that said, wheel feedback is by far the most important, after fast enough framerate and sound. The rest of it is secondary in real life. When you can afford it, the expense of a good wheel is justified. Even without the subtle feedback cues, the finer control input will make a difference.

On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 00:42:16 GMT, Rob Pollard wrote: > It's bizzarre, but I have a wheel and pedals but seem to consistently post > faster laptimes using my microsoft force feedback joystick! Very wierd. I > guess I feel like I have more direct control of the car with the joystick > and it seems to work well for me with GPL and GTR2. > Some of the fastest times of GPLRank in its early days were from joystick drivers: I seem to recall Achim Trensz and / or Wolfgang Woeger using a pedal joystick combo, don't know if he still does today. Cheers, uwe -- GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

> The car racing simlators I have so far are GTR, GPL, and NR2003. One method not mentioned so far in this thread is driver induced understeer, used while lifting off the throttle or braking. Steer inwards, maybe all the way, to wash out the front end and create an understeer or drift reaction from the car. This works best in GPL and is a common method. It works ok with NR2003, but in the case of the original GTR, with it's snap oversteer physics, it doesn't work as well. For GPL, recommended tranny setting for beginners is 85/45/4. This allows a player to learn how to control lift throttle induced oversteer (induced understeer and throttle inputs control the amount of slowing and turn in with a "loose" coast side differential).

reason for that was actually explained on RAS years ago IIRC... It was those guys figured out, and exploiting the "problem" in the game code, where you could actually corner (in GPL especially) at full lock 100% (ok I exaggerate it what was the max tire turning degrees anywho?), where in real life this would butcher the tires every time, plus wheel hop and stuff. For them, it would actually just under steer enough to be magically "just right" in corners, where the rest of us were trying to moderate slip angles with closer to real life tendencies of input... IE 12-35% of full degrees of steering lock input, and then with the physics calculating & compounding against us, because the MAX_SLIP_ANGLE variable were not maxed out per game limits, we're getting wicked over steer and snap spins at the same moment of car/track*time, half the time. Think of it as wave clipping/clamping in electronics, to keep the game from crashing with "out of bounds" results whenever you did this by accident or intentionally. "Uwe Sch�rkamp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 00:42:16 GMT, Rob Pollard wrote: > >> It's bizzarre, but I have a wheel and pedals but seem to consistently >> post >> faster laptimes using my microsoft force feedback joystick! Very wierd. I >> guess I feel like I have more direct control of the car with the joystick >> and it seems to work well for me with GPL and GTR2. >> > > Some of the fastest times of GPLRank in its early days were from > joystick drivers: I seem to recall Achim Trensz and / or Wolfgang Woeger > using a pedal joystick combo, don't know if he still does today. > > Cheers, uwe > > -- > GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

In article <RJM0j.295$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > reason for that was actually explained on RAS years ago IIRC... It was > those guys figured out, and exploiting the "problem" in the game code, where > you could actually corner (in GPL especially) at full lock 100% (ok I > exaggerate it what was the max tire turning degrees anywho?), where in real > life this would butcher the tires every time, plus wheel hop and stuff. Why would this be tied to using only a joystick, though? Sounds like, if the exploit's there then it's there for all to make use of, whether using a joystick, wheel or whatever. Why would it be easier for joystick users to exploit? I used to use only a joystick with GPL when I first began, and became fairly quick with it. I wasn't deliberately trying to 'exploit' the game physics in any way, I just found I could just drive fast. When I swapped to a wheel and pedals I just couldn't match my proficiency with the joystick. Now, I can't saying I was trying to drive in any obviously different way to how I used to drive using a joystick, I would just say that my reflexes were quicker and I could react much faster to what was going on in front of me, because all I had to concentrate on were 'micro' adjustments with my one arm, instead of having to think of all 4 appendages at once. Just my take on things.

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> > "Uwe Schï¿œrkamp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 00:42:16 GMT, Rob Pollard wrote: > > > >> It's bizzarre, but I have a wheel and pedals but seem to consistently > >> post > >> faster laptimes using my microsoft force feedback joystick! Very wierd. I > >> guess I feel like I have more direct control of the car with the joystick > >> and it seems to work well for me with GPL and GTR2. > >> > > > > Some of the fastest times of GPLRank in its early days were from > > joystick drivers: I seem to recall Achim Trensz and / or Wolfgang Woeger > > using a pedal joystick combo, don't know if he still does today. > > > > Cheers, uwe > > > > -- > > GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61 > >

-- Pete Ives Remove All_stRESS before sending me an email

> > driver induced understeer > reason for that was actually explained on RAS years ago IIRC... It was those guys figured out, and exploiting the > "problem" in the game code, Driver induced understeer works in real life, only the driver only turns just enough to keep the fronts just a bit past the limits. Only a small percentage of race cars (twitchy, non-downforce cars) would benefit from using this method. I asked about this at a driver site a while ago and a person who drives a Clio stated that induced understeer was needed to keep the mid-engine Clio pointed in the right direction when it was at the limits, especially in high speed turns, where aerodynamic drag requires a lot of throttle pressure to maintain the high speed.

Hi all, Just looking around the internet I found the book "GPL: four wheel drift" on replacmentdocs: http://www.replacementdocs.com/download.php?view.524 This doco seems quite useful, although I've only skimmed through it so far (well, it's 99 pages). One thing I learned so far from it about the old GP racing is: "Unlike modern GP races, there are no pit stops for anything but serving penalty time for infractions of the rules. The cars carried enough fuel to go non-stop, and the heavily-treaded tires often lasted several races." I was wondering why the game didn't do anything when I stopped in the pits, but now it all makes sense. I also found the original manual on replacementdocs which might offer some help also - I bought the game in one of those cheap bins a number of years ago and no manual was included. Regards, Mike.

my only suggestion to that, was with a joystick (last one I had looked like the sticks on a remote control airplane controller, so...) would be that you could find that by moving only a slight amount (inch or less) compared to me moving my wheel several inches, might be why I as well as many, didn't figure it out like the "aliens" did. Uh, that and the fact that when I drove really really fast in real life (compared to highway speeds of course) I was doing so in a muscle car, drag racing, not doing road racing. so to me, what I was referring to yet about the finding the "exploit" was the seemingly (now) ability to drive GPL and such "full lock" and get that "under steer" into hard turns where as if you did that at say even a training grounds in real life, you would burn tires off, but not in GPL. that is all. BTW, I'm not fast especially in GPL. so my point aint worth that much on here anywho. ;P I've raced a few evenings, way way back with Uwe, more with Remco (I believe in GPL Vrock & early Winvrock days) & if he recalls me, he'll attest that I was just a hazard they had to get around within 10% of the race's length. I mean I could qualify well sometimes, but usually, especially if for *any* reason they were around me, & within about 5 laps into a 30 lapper; I would make a critical mistake and be spreading shredded parts across the lanes of traffic, (groan). "Peter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <RJM0j.295$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] > says... >> reason for that was actually explained on RAS years ago IIRC... It was >> those guys figured out, and exploiting the "problem" in the game code, >> where >> you could actually corner (in GPL especially) at full lock 100% (ok I >> exaggerate it what was the max tire turning degrees anywho?), where in >> real >> life this would butcher the tires every time, plus wheel hop and stuff. > > Why would this be tied to using only a joystick, though? Sounds like, > if the exploit's there then it's there for all to make use of, whether > using a joystick, wheel or whatever. > > Why would it be easier for joystick users to exploit? > > I used to use only a joystick with GPL when I first began, and became > fairly quick with it. I wasn't deliberately trying to 'exploit' the > game physics in any way, I just found I could just drive fast. When I > swapped to a wheel and pedals I just couldn't match my proficiency with > the joystick. Now, I can't saying I was trying to drive in any > obviously different way to how I used to drive using a joystick, I would > just say that my reflexes were quicker and I could react much faster to > what was going on in front of me, because all I had to concentrate on > were 'micro' adjustments with my one arm, instead of having to think of > all 4 appendages at once. > > Just my take on things. > >> >> "Uwe Schï¿œrkamp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:[email hidden]... >> > On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 00:42:16 GMT, Rob Pollard wrote: >> > >> >> It's bizzarre, but I have a wheel and pedals but seem to consistently >> >> post >> >> faster laptimes using my microsoft force feedback joystick! Very >> >> wierd. I >> >> guess I feel like I have more direct control of the car with the >> >> joystick >> >> and it seems to work well for me with GPL and GTR2. >> >> >> > >> > Some of the fastest times of GPLRank in its early days were from >> > joystick drivers: I seem to recall Achim Trensz and / or Wolfgang >> > Woeger >> > using a pedal joystick combo, don't know if he still does today. >> > >> > Cheers, uwe >> > >> > -- >> > GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61 >> >> > > -- > Pete Ives > Remove All_stRESS before sending me an email