My New Logitech FF Wheel - 1st Impressions

Well, I finally broke down and ordered a new Logitech Wingman Formula Force wheel ($114.95 plus $17.20 shipping from www.buy.com) to replace my old Thrustmaster T2. It was the "new" wheel with stiffer springs and Sports Car GT. I was pleasantly surprised to find that it fit on my desk with no problem. Like my T2, I can't close my keyboard tray, but that's no big deal. From some folks' descriptions, I thought I might have to remove the tray entirely. I had some minor problems with the install, mainly due to my own stupidity. I forgot to plug in the power supply, and the installer said that it couldn't find any Logitech devices. The installer told me to make sure everything was hooked up and then hit "Next". Well, after I plugged in the power supply, USB and Plug and Play immediately fired up and installed some stuff but then froze the screen, necessitating a hard reboot. After rebooting, and being startled by the phantom driver testing my wheel, everything seemed to be in order (the device was present and working properly in the control panel and the Logitech software was active in the taskbar). I then installed the latest version of the Logitech software that in a rare moment of foresight I had the good sense to previously download. That went flawlessly. I was surprised at the strength of the effects in the test phase of this installation. On to GPL for a test drive. I set up my core.ini file and the settings in the Logitech Profiler according to Alison Hine's recommendations and fired up the game. When I was presented with the calibration screen, for a second I thought that it didn't see my wheel because there was absolutely no fluctuation with the calibration numbers. But, happily, it was working fine. I set up the paddle shifters (right for shift-up and left for shift-down), the buttons (top left for look left, top right for look right, and button right for clutch). I also moved the Linearity slider about 15% from the left edge (near full Linearity). I went to Zandvoort in a Coventry for Training (mainly because I have an online spec race this Friday with that combination, plus I love Zandvoort). Sitting in the pits I was thrilled to see not even the slightest twitch in my drivers' hands. With my T2 hooked up to my Turtle Beach Montego I soundcard (which has a digitial gameport), it looked like I badly needed a stiff drink, even after installing a new potentiometer in the T2. USB is great! On to the track. I decided to bite the bullet and learn to left foot brake. The pedals are definitely funky. The resistance was better than I had anticipated from previous reviews, but the travel is too short. I had to really concentrate on taking it easy with my feet (particularly tricky with the brakes, since I have no experience left foot braking). The wheel itself is fantastic! The paddle shifters are perfectly positioned. The steering is very precise. I had several orders of magnitude more car control than with my T2 and I haven't even shortened the deadzone with the DXTweak utility yet. I couldn't believe how effortless it was to position the car on the track. Despite this, my first few laps were pretty ragged, mainly because of all the new things I was assimilating - shifting with the paddles instead of the gear lever, left foot braking, dealing with very different pedals then what I'm used to, and the force effects. When I got the left foot braking right - it worked really well. You can definitely balance the car better using this technique. But it still kind of feels like trying to play the guitar left handed. Oh well, practicing should be fun. The force effects were fairly mild (using Alison's setup). But the information conveyed seemed useful. You could feel the wheel go limp as your front tires broke loose. Even the mild effects definitely add to the immersion. I'll have to do some experimenting with the settings. I only had time to run about ten laps. A good time for me at Zandy in the Coventry is 1:29.00. I was lapping in the high 1:30's, but I attribute that primarily to the left foot braking. I figure that once I get a handle on that technique, I should be at least as fast due to the precision of the steering. Before work this morning, I checked out Eric Cote's Logitech setup pages and made some tweaks to my Profile - mainly decreasing the sensitivity of the pedals. I again drove about ten laps at Zandvoort in the Coventry. This helped a lot. I could press harder without spinning the wheels or locking the brakes. Again, not sufficient time to properly test, but great fun. I'll report back with more info as I go, but my first impression is - money well spent! Dave Ewing -- ***************************************************** David A. Ewing *****************************************************

>Well, I finally broke down and ordered a new Logitech Wingman Formula >Force wheel ($114.95 plus $17.20 shipping from www.buy.com) to replace >my old Thrustmaster T2. It was the "new" wheel with stiffer springs and >Sports Car GT. [snipped the review] One of the best RAS reviews I've ever read Dave! Thanks. It really helps out those who are thinking about getting a force feedback (or any) wheel. One thing I don't think you mentioned that might be helpful is your current system specs, and if you noticed any frame rate hits with the force feedback turned on. Also, did you try the wheel with force feedback turned off to see if it was still better than your old T2? Looking forward to an update as you use the wheel some more. <remove 7of9 for e-mail replies> -- Bill Jones e-mail addresses: (860) 701-1201 WWW: http://pages.cthome.net/billj

Damn you David, I've been looking at the wheel and been having a hard time justifying spending $200 (that's what it cost in Canada). But now I'm going to go get one. I look foward to furthur updates Dean (ps. Just kidding about the Damn you)

<snnipped David Ewing's post about his new LWFF> I'll second that Fred, trailbraking is sooo much easier with the CH pedals. don [|]-(_)-[|]

Good to see you made the move to the LWFF Dave. I got mine about 5 months ago and have not regretted it whatsoever. Happy FF driving :o) Sid.

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> Well, I finally broke down and ordered a new Logitech Wingman Formula > Force wheel ($114.95 plus $17.20 shipping from www.buy.com) to replace > my old Thrustmaster T2. It was the "new" wheel with stiffer springs and > Sports Car GT. > I was pleasantly surprised to find that it fit on my desk with no > problem. Like my T2, I can't close my keyboard tray, but that's no big > deal. From some folks' descriptions, I thought I might have to remove > the tray entirely. > I had some minor problems with the install, mainly due to my own > stupidity. I forgot to plug in the power supply, and the installer said > that it couldn't find any Logitech devices. The installer told me to > make sure everything was hooked up and then hit "Next". Well, after > I plugged in the power supply, USB and Plug and Play immediately fired > up and installed some stuff but then froze the screen, necessitating a > hard reboot. After rebooting, and being startled by the phantom driver > testing my wheel, everything seemed to be in order (the device was > present and working properly in the control panel and the Logitech > software was active in the taskbar). I then installed the latest > version of the Logitech software that in a rare moment of foresight I > had the good sense to previously download. That went flawlessly. I was > surprised at the strength of the effects in the test phase of this > installation. > On to GPL for a test drive. I set up my core.ini file and the settings > in the Logitech Profiler according to Alison Hine's recommendations and > fired up the game. When I was presented with the calibration screen, > for a second I thought that it didn't see my wheel because there was > absolutely no fluctuation with the calibration numbers. But, happily, > it was working fine. I set up the paddle shifters (right for shift-up > and left for shift-down), the buttons (top left for look left, top right > for look right, and button right for clutch). I also moved the > Linearity slider about 15% from the left edge (near full Linearity). I > went to Zandvoort in a Coventry for Training (mainly because I have an > online spec race this Friday with that combination, plus I love > Zandvoort). > Sitting in the pits I was thrilled to see not even the slightest twitch > in my drivers' hands. With my T2 hooked up to my Turtle Beach Montego I > soundcard (which has a digitial gameport), it looked like I badly needed > a stiff drink, even after installing a new potentiometer in the T2. USB > is great! > On to the track. I decided to bite the bullet and learn to left foot > brake. The pedals are definitely funky. The resistance was better than > I had anticipated from previous reviews, but the travel is too short. > I had to really concentrate on taking it easy with my feet (particularly > tricky with the brakes, since I have no experience left foot braking). > The wheel itself is fantastic! The paddle shifters are perfectly > positioned. The steering is very precise. I had several orders of > magnitude more car control than with my T2 and I haven't even shortened > the deadzone with the DXTweak utility yet. I couldn't believe how > effortless it was to position the car on the track. Despite this, my > first few laps were pretty ragged, mainly because of all the new things > I was assimilating - shifting with the paddles instead of the gear > lever, left foot braking, dealing with very different pedals then what > I'm used to, and the force effects. When I got the left foot braking > right - it worked really well. You can definitely balance the car > better using this technique. But it still kind of feels like trying to > play the guitar left handed. Oh well, practicing should be fun. > The force effects were fairly mild (using Alison's setup). But the > information conveyed seemed useful. You could feel the wheel go limp as > your front tires broke loose. Even the mild effects definitely add to > the immersion. I'll have to do some experimenting with the settings. > I only had time to run about ten laps. A good time for me at Zandy in > the Coventry is 1:29.00. I was lapping in the high 1:30's, but > I attribute that primarily to the left foot braking. I figure that once > I get a handle on that technique, I should be at least as fast due to > the precision of the steering. > Before work this morning, I checked out Eric Cote's Logitech setup pages > and made some tweaks to my Profile - mainly decreasing the sensitivity > of the pedals. I again drove about ten laps at Zandvoort in the > Coventry. This helped a lot. I could press harder without spinning the > wheels or locking the brakes. Again, not sufficient time to properly > test, but great fun. > I'll report back with more info as I go, but my first impression is - > money well spent! > Dave Ewing > -- > ***************************************************** > David A. Ewing > *****************************************************

snip............snip .............snip Now all you need to do is get you a set of CH pedals and youll have you a match made in heaven for racing in GPL!

I totally agree: I've just rewired my LWFF w/ CH pedals and this combination is great! I just have to make the brake pedal a bit more stiffer, maybe with a racketball as steve blankenship suggest on alison's page ... Lio

Yup, the CH pedals definately are a big improvement over the LWFF pedals. But have you modified the ch pedals in any way, like putting a squash ball under the pedals? I wonder if I can improve the ch pedals even more. Andre On Tue, 16 Nov 1999 19:38:08 -0800, "don hodgdon"

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><snnipped David Ewing's post about his new LWFF> >>Now all you need to do is get you a set of CH pedals >>and youll have you a match made in heaven for >>racing in GPL! >I'll second that Fred, trailbraking is sooo much easier with the CH pedals. >don >[|]-(_)-[|]

I have just bought mine a couple of weeks ago after having had the MSFF for about 11 months. At first I thought the force effect was too weak since I was used to a lot of damping from the MSFF, but managed to find find perfect FF settings in the end. And I have to say that it took a bit of time to get used to it, but now I have I would definitely recommend it to any MSFF users. Yes it is far better than MSFF and offers a lot more precision in GPL. But the PEDALS are a joke! I'd say worthless of the name, I just could not use it, it feels like a baby's plastic toy. So I went out a bought myself the EXCELLENT CH PEDALS which are very cheap and a MUST HAVE if you have a LWFF, unless of course you can afford better ones. The combination of a LWFF and these pedals has given me a lot more precision and feel to my driving and GPL feels like a whole new game to me. Now I feel I have wasted time sticking to the same wheel (MSFF) for so long, just on the assumption there was nothing better out there. For the first time after months I finally broke the 1.28s barrier and went around Monza in 1.27.89 all down to a fast exit from the parabolica, precision control into the Vialone and the best 2 lesmos I ever managed. I don't think I could have had the same control without the PDPI L4 and the CH pedals and of course the excellent LWFF, yes I am another one who's been converted. I think now I can have a seriuos go at the Ring. Cheers mauricio

Any chance my old Thrustmaster T1 pedals would work with a LWFF ? Have had them for 4 years and love them but want to get a FF wheel Thanks, Murray

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> I have just bought mine a couple of weeks ago after having had the > MSFF for about 11 months. At first I thought the force effect was too > weak since I was used to a lot of damping from the MSFF, but managed > to find find perfect FF settings in the end. And I have to say that it > took a bit of time to get used to it, but now I have I would > definitely recommend it to any MSFF users. Yes it is far better than > MSFF and offers a lot more precision in GPL. But the PEDALS are a > joke! I'd say worthless of the name, I just could not use it, it feels > like a baby's plastic toy. So I went out a bought myself the EXCELLENT > CH PEDALS which are very cheap and a MUST HAVE if you have a LWFF, > unless of course you can afford better ones. The combination of a LWFF > and these pedals has given me a lot more precision and feel to my > driving and GPL feels like a whole new game to me. Now I feel I have > wasted time sticking to the same wheel (MSFF) for so long, just on the > assumption there was nothing better out there. For the first time > after months I finally broke the 1.28s barrier and went around Monza > in 1.27.89 all down to a fast exit from the parabolica, precision > control into the Vialone and the best 2 lesmos I ever managed. I don't > think I could have had the same control without the PDPI L4 and the CH > pedals and of course the excellent LWFF, yes I am another one who's > been converted. I think now I can have a seriuos go at the Ring. > Cheers > mauricio > >Well, I finally broke down and ordered a new Logitech Wingman Formula > >Force wheel ($114.95 plus $17.20 shipping from www.buy.com) to replace > >my old Thrustmaster T2. It was the "new" wheel with stiffer springs and > >Sports Car GT. > >I was pleasantly surprised to find that it fit on my desk with no > >problem. Like my T2, I can't close my keyboard tray, but that's no big > >deal. From some folks' descriptions, I thought I might have to remove > >the tray entirely. > >I had some minor problems with the install, mainly due to my own > >stupidity. I forgot to plug in the power supply, and the installer said > >that it couldn't find any Logitech devices. The installer told me to > >make sure everything was hooked up and then hit "Next". Well, after > >I plugged in the power supply, USB and Plug and Play immediately fired > >up and installed some stuff but then froze the screen, necessitating a > >hard reboot. After rebooting, and being startled by the phantom driver > >testing my wheel, everything seemed to be in order (the device was > >present and working properly in the control panel and the Logitech > >software was active in the taskbar). I then installed the latest > >version of the Logitech software that in a rare moment of foresight I > >had the good sense to previously download. That went flawlessly. I was > >surprised at the strength of the effects in the test phase of this > >installation. > >On to GPL for a test drive. I set up my core.ini file and the settings > >in the Logitech Profiler according to Alison Hine's recommendations and > >fired up the game. When I was presented with the calibration screen, > >for a second I thought that it didn't see my wheel because there was > >absolutely no fluctuation with the calibration numbers. But, happily, > >it was working fine. I set up the paddle shifters (right for shift-up > >and left for shift-down), the buttons (top left for look left, top right > >for look right, and button right for clutch). I also moved the > >Linearity slider about 15% from the left edge (near full Linearity). I > >went to Zandvoort in a Coventry for Training (mainly because I have an > >online spec race this Friday with that combination, plus I love > >Zandvoort). > >Sitting in the pits I was thrilled to see not even the slightest twitch > >in my drivers' hands. With my T2 hooked up to my Turtle Beach Montego I > >soundcard (which has a digitial gameport), it looked like I badly needed > >a stiff drink, even after installing a new potentiometer in the T2. USB > >is great! > >On to the track. I decided to bite the bullet and learn to left foot > >brake. The pedals are definitely funky. The resistance was better than > >I had anticipated from previous reviews, but the travel is too short. > >I had to really concentrate on taking it easy with my feet (particularly > >tricky with the brakes, since I have no experience left foot braking). > >The wheel itself is fantastic! The paddle shifters are perfectly > >positioned. The steering is very precise. I had several orders of > >magnitude more car control than with my T2 and I haven't even shortened > >the deadzone with the DXTweak utility yet. I couldn't believe how > >effortless it was to position the car on the track. Despite this, my > >first few laps were pretty ragged, mainly because of all the new things > >I was assimilating - shifting with the paddles instead of the gear > >lever, left foot braking, dealing with very different pedals then what > >I'm used to, and the force effects. When I got the left foot braking > >right - it worked really well. You can definitely balance the car > >better using this technique. But it still kind of feels like trying to > >play the guitar left handed. Oh well, practicing should be fun. > >The force effects were fairly mild (using Alison's setup). But the > >information conveyed seemed useful. You could feel the wheel go limp as > >your front tires broke loose. Even the mild effects definitely add to > >the immersion. I'll have to do some experimenting with the settings. > >I only had time to run about ten laps. A good time for me at Zandy in > >the Coventry is 1:29.00. I was lapping in the high 1:30's, but > >I attribute that primarily to the left foot braking. I figure that once > >I get a handle on that technique, I should be at least as fast due to > >the precision of the steering. > >Before work this morning, I checked out Eric Cote's Logitech setup pages > >and made some tweaks to my Profile - mainly decreasing the sensitivity > >of the pedals. I again drove about ten laps at Zandvoort in the > >Coventry. This helped a lot. I could press harder without spinning the > >wheels or locking the brakes. Again, not sufficient time to properly > >test, but great fun. > >I'll report back with more info as I go, but my first impression is - > >money well spent! > >Dave Ewing

With my LWFF I just plug the CH pedals or any other pedals to the game port (If they are wired to go straight to the game port) and GPL will recognize them. Its not that hard to wire pedals into the LWFF either because it uses a simple wiring to two 10K pots (I am using it with 100k in my pedals) . Lutrell

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>Any chance my old Thrustmaster T1 pedals would work with a LWFF ? >Have had them for 4 years and love them but want to get a FF wheel >Thanks, >Murray >> I have just bought mine a couple of weeks ago after having had the >> MSFF for about 11 months. At first I thought the force effect was too >> weak since I was used to a lot of damping from the MSFF, but managed >> to find find perfect FF settings in the end. And I have to say that it >> took a bit of time to get used to it, but now I have I would >> definitely recommend it to any MSFF users. Yes it is far better than >> MSFF and offers a lot more precision in GPL. But the PEDALS are a >> joke! I'd say worthless of the name, I just could not use it, it feels >> like a baby's plastic toy. So I went out a bought myself the EXCELLENT >> CH PEDALS which are very cheap and a MUST HAVE if you have a LWFF, >> unless of course you can afford better ones. The combination of a LWFF >> and these pedals has given me a lot more precision and feel to my >> driving and GPL feels like a whole new game to me. Now I feel I have >> wasted time sticking to the same wheel (MSFF) for so long, just on the >> assumption there was nothing better out there. For the first time >> after months I finally broke the 1.28s barrier and went around Monza >> in 1.27.89 all down to a fast exit from the parabolica, precision >> control into the Vialone and the best 2 lesmos I ever managed. I don't >> think I could have had the same control without the PDPI L4 and the CH >> pedals and of course the excellent LWFF, yes I am another one who's >> been converted. I think now I can have a seriuos go at the Ring. >> Cheers >> mauricio >> >Well, I finally broke down and ordered a new Logitech Wingman Formula >> >Force wheel ($114.95 plus $17.20 shipping from www.buy.com) to replace >> >my old Thrustmaster T2. It was the "new" wheel with stiffer springs and >> >Sports Car GT. >> >I was pleasantly surprised to find that it fit on my desk with no >> >problem. Like my T2, I can't close my keyboard tray, but that's no big >> >deal. From some folks' descriptions, I thought I might have to remove >> >the tray entirely. >> >I had some minor problems with the install, mainly due to my own >> >stupidity. I forgot to plug in the power supply, and the installer said >> >that it couldn't find any Logitech devices. The installer told me to >> >make sure everything was hooked up and then hit "Next". Well, after >> >I plugged in the power supply, USB and Plug and Play immediately fired >> >up and installed some stuff but then froze the screen, necessitating a >> >hard reboot. After rebooting, and being startled by the phantom driver >> >testing my wheel, everything seemed to be in order (the device was >> >present and working properly in the control panel and the Logitech >> >software was active in the taskbar). I then installed the latest >> >version of the Logitech software that in a rare moment of foresight I >> >had the good sense to previously download. That went flawlessly. I was >> >surprised at the strength of the effects in the test phase of this >> >installation. >> >On to GPL for a test drive. I set up my core.ini file and the settings >> >in the Logitech Profiler according to Alison Hine's recommendations and >> >fired up the game. When I was presented with the calibration screen, >> >for a second I thought that it didn't see my wheel because there was >> >absolutely no fluctuation with the calibration numbers. But, happily, >> >it was working fine. I set up the paddle shifters (right for shift-up >> >and left for shift-down), the buttons (top left for look left, top right >> >for look right, and button right for clutch). I also moved the >> >Linearity slider about 15% from the left edge (near full Linearity). I >> >went to Zandvoort in a Coventry for Training (mainly because I have an >> >online spec race this Friday with that combination, plus I love >> >Zandvoort). >> >Sitting in the pits I was thrilled to see not even the slightest twitch >> >in my drivers' hands. With my T2 hooked up to my Turtle Beach Montego I >> >soundcard (which has a digitial gameport), it looked like I badly needed >> >a stiff drink, even after installing a new potentiometer in the T2. USB >> >is great! >> >On to the track. I decided to bite the bullet and learn to left foot >> >brake. The pedals are definitely funky. The resistance was better than >> >I had anticipated from previous reviews, but the travel is too short. >> >I had to really concentrate on taking it easy with my feet (particularly >> >tricky with the brakes, since I have no experience left foot braking). >> >The wheel itself is fantastic! The paddle shifters are perfectly >> >positioned. The steering is very precise. I had several orders of >> >magnitude more car control than with my T2 and I haven't even shortened >> >the deadzone with the DXTweak utility yet. I couldn't believe how >> >effortless it was to position the car on the track. Despite this, my >> >first few laps were pretty ragged, mainly because of all the new things >> >I was assimilating - shifting with the paddles instead of the gear >> >lever, left foot braking, dealing with very different pedals then what >> >I'm used to, and the force effects. When I got the left foot braking >> >right - it worked really well. You can definitely balance the car >> >better using this technique. But it still kind of feels like trying to >> >play the guitar left handed. Oh well, practicing should be fun. >> >The force effects were fairly mild (using Alison's setup). But the >> >information conveyed seemed useful. You could feel the wheel go limp as >> >your front tires broke loose. Even the mild effects definitely add to >> >the immersion. I'll have to do some experimenting with the settings. >> >I only had time to run about ten laps. A good time for me at Zandy in >> >the Coventry is 1:29.00. I was lapping in the high 1:30's, but >> >I attribute that primarily to the left foot braking. I figure that once >> >I get a handle on that technique, I should be at least as fast due to >> >the precision of the steering. >> >Before work this morning, I checked out Eric Cote's Logitech setup pages >> >and made some tweaks to my Profile - mainly decreasing the sensitivity >> >of the pedals. I again drove about ten laps at Zandvoort in the >> >Coventry. This helped a lot. I could press harder without spinning the >> >wheels or locking the brakes. Again, not sufficient time to properly >> >test, but great fun. >> >I'll report back with more info as I go, but my first impression is - >> >money well spent! >> >Dave Ewing

> One of the best RAS reviews I've ever read Dave! Thanks. It really helps > out those who are thinking about getting a force feedback (or any) wheel. Thanks for the kind words, Bill. Glad to be of service. I have a 400 MHz PII (Dell), 128 MB RAM, Voodoo3 3000. I run GPL at 1024 x 768 with most everything on (just cars in the mirrors and no skid marks). I didn't notice any frame rate degradation. I have been only running in Training mode until I get more comfortable with the pedals. The frame counter seemed to stay around 36.0, although I don't think I looked at it while crashing. ;-) One of the deciding factors in buying this wheel was Randy Cassidy's statistics about how the Logitech requires far fewer instructions than the other FF wheels, so this should be less of a factor (theoretically) than with the other brands. No, I didn't. I'll give that a try. Last night, I installed Sports Car GT (which came with the wheel) and played around with it. Way less demanding to drive than GPL, but very fun. The FF in this game is used more for effect and less for feedback. You don't get the useful info like the wheel going limp as your front tires break loose. It does generate a nice vibration as you ride the curbs. And if you put a wheel off, you get a very sharp jerk of the wheel. Stay tuned for further updates. -- ***************************************************** David A. Ewing *****************************************************

which CH pedals? the Pro rudder? -- Jaz Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

I use the non-pro. Lio

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>> > Now all you need to do is get you a set of CH pedals >> > and youll have you a match made in heaven for >> > racing in GPL! >> which CH pedals? the Pro rudder? >I use the non-pro.

I have the Pro, but would recommend the non-Pro. Why? For those racing games that do not support split-axis, the only way the Pro supports them is with the unweildy rudder motion. Consequently, I find them unplayable for single-axis racing titles.

But you can block the pedals with those *** stoppers who came with the Pro pedals? Andre

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>>> > Now all you need to do is get you a set of CH pedals >>> > and youll have you a match made in heaven for >>> > racing in GPL! >>> which CH pedals? the Pro rudder? >>I use the non-pro. >I have the Pro, but would recommend the non-Pro. Why? For those racing >games that do not support split-axis, the only way the Pro supports them >is with the unweildy rudder motion. Consequently, I find them >unplayable for single-axis racing titles.