DTR.. Is it just me ?

Hi, I have read a lot of praise for DTR, and no doubt a lot of people like it, but i find the driving model more on a par with driving a speed boat then a car. I think it possibly has good fun value, but to me i can't get into it, because i feel the physics of the demo are a not real enough.. I am not flaming, but voicing my opinion of the demo, and "Yes", i did download it and have tried it for two nights in a row, but it just does not translate the feeling of being in control, to me.. The sounds of the engine, verses the way it pulls through the gears, is totally false and gives no feedback to what gear you should be in for any given circumstance.. I tried it on-line, and the on-line code seems reasonable, but for me, the thrill of floating around a brown river in a poorly responding boat, soon wore off.. All of the above is IMO only, as that is the way i find it.. Like i said, i am not flaming DTR, but voicing my opinion to see if any one else feel the same way, if not, then i guess it must be just me... Cheers, Ron

My thoughts exactly. Looks like fun... so it's back to the 'Ring for me :-) Andrew McP

You are being VERY carefull telling us that DTR sucks :) Don't worry Ron, I don't like it either, for exactly the same reasons. Oh, one thing I also don't like is that the average laptime is between 10-15 seconds... But I think that a patch with better engine sounds and a replay option could make DTR more bearable for me... Andre

I'm lost too Ron.... no reference frame. Assuming the setups in the demo are on the conservative side, I don't think there's cause to doubt the responsiveness of the cars in the final product though. Question remains... how do you drive one of these things?? -Do you provoke the slide or just let it happen "naturally" from going in a little too hot?? And... how do you keep it going all the way round the turn? -I just can't figure it out! Jan. ---- <snip>

It's not just you, I think the game is a quality game, and is good addition to the other fine racing games out right now, But Id rather be racing N3 or Nascar Legends. Bouncing off the walls on a dirt track just isn't as excitng as the tracks in Nascar -- Kevin Anderson --------------------------------------------------- DK-Racing #15 K_Anderson ------------------------------------------------- http://www.awtech.net/ http://www.nascar-3.com/

It looks like the demo may have a toned down physics model from the final at 100% realistic! The setups are far more difficult to to dial in and go fast than the default settings in the demo. Hopefully, the sound issue will get resolved soon as the 3rd party ones we have get inserted into the game.They are excellent and have a far great range of frequency, quality and amplitude! Pete

Jan, you are correct about the setups in the demo! In real life you must throw the cars into the corners and reverse steer them out. The feed back from the testers on the handling in the full versions is coming in positive and many are using real life setups and getting excellent results! Pete

> Question remains... how do you drive one of these things?? -Do you provoke > the slide or just let it happen "naturally" from going in a little too hot?? > And... how do you keep it going all the way round the turn? -I just can't > figure it out! > Jan. Jan, It's difficult to explain, and even more difficult to do consistently, but I'll give it a try. I'm no expert, and I've only done it in real life on motorcycles, but the technique is pretty straightforward. One thing that may be working you up is the steering ratio in the demo -- it's set to 40.1 degrees, which, though you certainly need quick steering, is set way too high for me. Try to picture yourself driving in a parking lot with hard-packed snow. If you try to turn a car that is going too fast for the arc you've chosen, you'll simply plow ahead. If you feed in some throttle, the rear end will swing around and start propelling the car in a tangent to your original line. This does two things. First, it slows the car. Second, it alters the direction of the car. If you back the throttle off so that you maintain that angle, the car will travel in a more or less straight line and at an angle that is more than your original line but less than the angle formed by your car and your original line. Basic stuff. My technique for entering a turn is to roll off the throttle to the point where I'm going to maintain my slide, and to use the steering to induce the necessary oversteer. You can jump off the throttle and use less steering to get the oversteer, I find it slows the car too much but for me it's harder to find that throttle "sweet spot" and consequently I find it harder to be consistent and smooth. The trick in dirt track racing is to maintain the best slip angle AND maximum traction of the powered (rear) wheels. If you feed in too much throttle your rear wheels will break traction and the rear end will start to come around. If you correct with steering input alone, the car will lose forward speed and either maintain sideways motion, or worse, slow down. The whole idea is, with subtle steering input and throttle control, to maintain maximum FORWARD motion consistent with the line you're trying to maintain. As you said, the sound kind of makes keeping track of subtleties in your engine speed, but you do have the tach to watch. If you see your engine maxxing out the tach, you know you're not getting the forward speed you need to come squirting out of the turn. That transition from turn to straight, where you feed in the throttle to maximum and straighten the car out with steering input is really crucial to fast lap times. Do it too qickly and you loop. Do it too slowly and you get passed. One thing. Folks on this NG have scoffed and said that they can maintain full throttle all around every track. If you're doing this, you're not going to win against really competent drivers (And I'm not one of them.). If you can do that, you need to drop down a gear so that you have the capability to break the rear wheels loose at any point in the turn. At no point during your slide should your rear wheels have full traction, because that means you're oscillating between slide and full, straight-line motion. I know I didn't explain this very well, but I hope it helps some. -- Bob Curtin Worcester Area Strategy & Tactics Exchange http://www.tiac.net/users/ten10ths/ "If God had intended men to join the Army he would have given us green, baggy skin"

This sounds promising. Jan. ----

Thanks for the explanation Bob. From what you've said I gather it is done the way I supposed it was. Basically you keep the car "on the tyres" and use their tractive capacity to stay in the turn. I can do that.... once in a blue moon and only when using a late apex (so the yaw angle of the car isn't quite so impressive). I think most of the problem is the only dirt type racing I've ever seen is some Sprint Car crashes on "And They Walked Away..". Like I said: no reference frame. Guess I was born a good 3000 miles too far east for this one. Got a lot to learn. Jan.

Well I have to say I do like DTR, im not sure if the driveing model is correct or not as I havent ever drove a car like these. Anyway I do see some promblems with the game, 1 is with the AI in the game there is no way to get them to spin out while raceing them, I have tried all night lats night 10+ cars in the race and I set the AI level so I would allways be in the pack, anyway as much as I tried to nudge them in the backend side to get them to spin there is just no way they would I have even hit them square on in the rear quarter as im comeing into a turn and the ***s just seem to apply more opposite lock and carry on, so to me it looks like the AI is very scripted and doesnt want to have any driver flaws like a human player, online this is very diffrent and cars can easy be nudged to spin. BTW I also have Powerslide the first game by these guys and the AI in that game definatly make mistakes, much more than in DTR. To me the AI in DTR feel very canned and boring to race. I will get the game though as I have many friends who will play this with me and this so far is where it will be a winner with me. Also there is a promblem with the use of FF joysticks in this game, I dont use the FF effects with my Saitek R4 FF as they slow the game down for me, but because i have them ticked as off in the game it has taken the tension off the wheel aswell, in the Powerslide game you can untick FF but the wheel still retains the tension settings.

Can you say "arcade" driving model for the demo? I knew you could :) The retail will have a full driving model. - James "Gunslinger" Wohlever Techware Motorsports http://techware.gtinsider.com

I'll try to keep it simple. My Daddy allways told me, "Son, ta go fast in one of those thingys, ya gotta steer with the back end(throttle), and use the steering wheel to keep the nose (front end) ahead of the ass (back end)"

>Can you say "arcade" driving model for the demo? >I knew you could :) "arcade" driving model for the demo....yup, I can. Cool! Too bad I won't buy it, since I am obvious not the target market. I don't like Arcade games.... (I am sure they would include the "Real" physics in the demo if they were proud of it, and since they don't...) Remco

Kenny L. that's the "perfect" explanation. Cause that's exactly how it is. DBH Your daddy was a smart man!

Thanks, yes he was, and fast, and cagey...I miss him.

10-15 seconds? This is on the demo tracks? You must be a hell of a driver, I can only manage a 15.98 on the 3/8 mile track and the 1/2 mile tracks are in the 17 and 20 second range. Am I missing something, please enlighten. Kyle

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> >Can you say "arcade" driving model for the demo? > >I knew you could :) > "arcade" driving model for the demo....yup, I can. > >The retail will have a full driving model. > Cool! Too bad I won't buy it, since I am obvious not > the target market. I don't like Arcade games.... > (I am sure they would include the "Real" physics in the > demo if they were proud of it, and since they don't...) > Remco

That's a pretty arrogant statement, Remco, given that you probably haven't sampled the final version with the "real" physics. I have, and I think Ratbag should definitely be proud of with their final version of DTR, and I think a lot of people will agree with me when it's released. Remember, Papy was so proud of GPL's driving model that they stuck it right in the demo as-is, without dumbing it down at all. In fact, GPL wasn't adjustable in any way -- if you're so proud, why bother with adding any adjustments to make it more accessible to anything but the most experienced sim racers? And look at the results: 45,000 happy buyers, give or take a few who weren't so satisfied. I think the objective with DTR was to make it ACCESSIBLE to everyone, and SATISFYING to both the novice AND the *** racer. I think Ratbag has done a great job of reaching this goal, and I'm sure they shouldn't have any problem selling ten times as many copies as Papy did of GPL. And as a result, there are going to be a lot of happy drivers out there, ranging from the novices to the *** nutcases. Count me in as one of those happy nutcases. By the way, if you're not their target market, then were do you fall? Given that the target spans the spectrum from novices to *** nutcases that doesn't leave much else -- should we mark you down as hack or a Jedi? <G> -- JB Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

A "patch".....for a demo??? -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- -----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==---------- http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World! ------== Over 73,000 Newsgroups - Including Dedicated Binaries Servers ==-----

Having driven in a few low-key rallies and other dirt-track stuff many years ago, I recall that the drivers actually "threw" the car into a slide.........in other words, they deliberately invoked the slide then held it in the slide by using opposite-lock in combination with the accelerator. The bes of the drivers would get an ideal balance betwen lock and throttle so that the car was perfectly balanced through the curve. The fastest drivers had the car pointed ahead down the straight as they came drifting out of the bend. Accelerating then straightened the car and opposite lock was wound off. If you get the opportunity to drive on a dirt area (and rally driving is one of the best class-rooms) then this method of cornering, particularly in a rear-wheel drive car, comes very quickly and perfectly naturally. -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- -----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==---------- http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World! ------== Over 73,000 Newsgroups - Including Dedicated Binaries Servers ==-----

Hotdog, the AI in the final is anything but scripted! In fact they have many flaws built in and they will cause massive wrecks with each other, and fight each other tooth and nail! The AI is far more advanced than Powerslide! Pete

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> Well I have to say I do like DTR, im not sure if the driveing model is > correct or not as I havent ever drove a car like these. Anyway I do > see some promblems with the game, 1 is with the AI in the game > there is no way to get them to spin out while raceing them, I have > tried all night lats night 10+ cars in the race and I set the AI level > so I would allways be in the pack, anyway as much as I tried to nudge > them in the backend side to get them to spin there is just no way they > would I have even hit them square on in the rear quarter as im comeing > into a turn and the ***s just seem to apply more opposite lock and > carry on, so to me it looks like the AI is very scripted and doesnt > want to have any driver flaws like a human player, online this is very > diffrent and cars can easy be nudged to spin. > BTW I also have Powerslide the first game by these guys and the AI in > that game definatly make mistakes, much more than in DTR. To me the AI > in DTR feel very canned and boring to race. I will get the game though > as I have many friends who will play this with me and this so far is > where it will be a winner with me. > Also there is a promblem with the use of FF joysticks in this game, I > dont use the FF effects with my Saitek R4 FF as they slow the game > down for me, but because i have them ticked as off in the game it has > taken the tension off the wheel aswell, in the Powerslide game you can > untick FF but the wheel still retains the tension settings.

I am a big Speedway fan. Started going when I was a young kid. I think this game is going to be great. Hope I can get it in Australia real soon.

Hey John!

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>> >The retail will have a full driving model. >> Cool! Too bad I won't buy it, since I am obvious not >> the target market. I don't like Arcade games.... >> (I am sure they would include the "Real" physics in the >> demo if they were proud of it, and since they don't...) >That's a pretty arrogant statement, Remco, given that you probably >haven't sampled the final version with the "real" physics. I have, and >I think Ratbag should definitely be proud of with their final version >of DTR, and I think a lot of people will agree with me when it's >released.

Arrogant? I disagree. More an opinion based on experience. I just don't buy (claimed) simulations if the demo doesn't have the full physics. I am happy for you that you like the game, but I've learned the hard way not to assume the opinion of someone else is the same as mine. If Ratbag is also targetting the *** market, then why leave the full physics out of the demo? In general I'm a nutcase too. <g> Remco

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> Hey John! > >> >The retail will have a full driving model. > >> Cool! Too bad I won't buy it, since I am obvious not > >> the target market. I don't like Arcade games.... > >> (I am sure they would include the "Real" physics in the > >> demo if they were proud of it, and since they don't...) > >That's a pretty arrogant statement, Remco, given that you probably > >haven't sampled the final version with the "real" physics. I have,

and

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> >I think Ratbag should definitely be proud of with their final version > >of DTR, and I think a lot of people will agree with me when it's > >released. > Arrogant? I disagree. More an opinion based on experience. I just > don't buy (claimed) simulations if the demo doesn't have the full > physics. I am happy for you that you like the game, but I've learned > the hard way not to assume the opinion of someone else is the same as > mine. > If Ratbag is also targetting the *** market, then why leave the > full physics out of the demo?

Remco, The full physics ARE in the demo, I believe -- what's missing is the ability to adjust and tweak the car setups. You're dealing with an "IROC" version of DTR, essentially, where you're stuck with one default setup. It's going to seem somewhat arcade-like, but let me tell you from experience, the setups make as much difference in DTR as they do in games like Viper Racing, SCGT, and GPL. Ratbag left the demo simple to make it more appealing to everybody. If you're an arcade fan, then DTR should have some appeal as-is, and if you're a *** sim fan, you should be able to see the potential in the basic physics engine. So spend that piddly $19.95 when it comes out, and THEN decide whether it's an arcade racer or not. Surely you've paid more than that for more disappointing games in the past! <G> -- JB Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

(snip) (unsnip) And you know this for a fact, do you? -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- -----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==---------- http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World! ------== Over 73,000 Newsgroups - Including Dedicated Binaries Servers ==-----

Your daddy shor kept ut simpul! -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- end)" -----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==---------- http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World! ------== Over 73,000 Newsgroups - Including Dedicated Binaries Servers ==-----

Probably not before December, Jason. (See recent post concerning distribution for Europe and Aust/NZ). -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- -----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==---------- http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World! ------== Over 73,000 Newsgroups - Including Dedicated Binaries Servers ==-----

(snip) . I just (unsnip) Then in that case, Rem, you must have very, very few sims! -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- -----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==---------- http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World! ------== Over 73,000 Newsgroups - Including Dedicated Binaries Servers ==-----

This string has meaningful content, clear explanation of views and a mature discussion of the merits and pitfalls of demos. Are you guys are setting a bad example! ; ) buzard

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> > >Can you say "arcade" driving model for the demo? > > >I knew you could :) > > "arcade" driving model for the demo....yup, I can. > > >The retail will have a full driving model. > > Cool! Too bad I won't buy it, since I am obvious not > > the target market. I don't like Arcade games.... > > (I am sure they would include the "Real" physics in the > > demo if they were proud of it, and since they don't...) > > Remco > That's a pretty arrogant statement, Remco, given that you probably > haven't sampled the final version with the "real" physics. I have, and > I think Ratbag should definitely be proud of with their final version > of DTR, and I think a lot of people will agree with me when it's > released. > Remember, Papy was so proud of GPL's driving model that they stuck it > right in the demo as-is, without dumbing it down at all. In fact, GPL > wasn't adjustable in any way -- if you're so proud, why bother with > adding any adjustments to make it more accessible to anything but the > most experienced sim racers? > And look at the results: 45,000 happy buyers, give or take a few who > weren't so satisfied. > I think the objective with DTR was to make it ACCESSIBLE to everyone, > and SATISFYING to both the novice AND the *** racer. I think > Ratbag has done a great job of reaching this goal, and I'm sure they > shouldn't have any problem selling ten times as many copies as Papy did > of GPL. And as a result, there are going to be a lot of happy drivers > out there, ranging from the novices to the *** nutcases. > Count me in as one of those happy nutcases. > By the way, if you're not their target market, then were do you fall? > Given that the target spans the spectrum from novices to *** > nutcases that doesn't leave much else -- should we mark you down as > hack or a Jedi? <G> > -- JB > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy.

Remco, I completely agree with your statement. Why would you target the *** sim market,then spend the time to release a demo to get our racing juices flowing,only to leave out the full physics? I would think that you would give us the best you got,so that we would line up to buy DTR,rather than waiting to review the reviews. Joel Willstein

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>(snip) >. I just >> don't buy (claimed) simulations if the demo doesn't have the full >> physics. >(unsnip) >Then in that case, Rem, you must have very, very few sims!

Yeah, but I've a lot of demos....<g> Remco

>The full physics ARE in the demo, I believe Oh, I should know better then believe people here in the newsgroup. (You bad boy you, James! <g>). If this is the case, then my attack on Ratbag targetting the Arcade market only with the demo was plain wrong, my excuses for that. After some more time with the demo I must say it isn't the physics, but the lack of feedback what annoys me. Maybe this is better when you use FF? The engine/tires sound doesn't give me any information. Please don't think this is another way to pick on the game, I am just trying to figure out what I am doing wrong. Remco

Absolutely. One of the most fun aspects of driving a car. Unfortunately they missed the mark in DTR and this technique is not possible. You can get something that resembles it (slightly) but it is definitely no better than SODA which is a couple of years old. Over all, I'd have to say SODA's physics are better. Anticipation is not an easy thing to simulate on a computer. So, being what it is, DTR aint half bad. And you know how I feel about circle jer.. er... racing. -- Mark Jeangerard www.soundchaserweb.com New Mexico USA > Having driven in a few low-key rallies and other dirt-track stuff many years > ago, I recall that the drivers actually "threw" the car into a > slide.........in other words, they deliberately invoked the slide then held > it in the slide by using opposite-lock in combination with the accelerator. > The bes of the drivers would get an ideal balance betwen lock and throttle > so that the car was perfectly balanced through the curve. > The fastest drivers had the car pointed ahead down the straight as they came > drifting out of the bend. Accelerating then straightened the car and > opposite lock was wound off. > If you get the opportunity to drive on a dirt area (and rally driving is one > of the best class-rooms) then this method of cornering, particularly in a > rear-wheel drive car, comes very quickly and perfectly naturally. > -- > Regards, > Bruce Kennewell, > Canberra, Australia. > --------------------------- > > I'm lost too Ron.... no reference frame. Assuming the setups in the demo > are > > on the conservative side, I don't think there's cause to doubt the > > responsiveness of the cars in the final product though. > > Question remains... how do you drive one of these things?? -Do you provoke > > the slide or just let it happen "naturally" from going in a little too > hot?? > > And... how do you keep it going all the way round the turn? -I just can't > > figure it out! > -----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==---------- > http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World! > ------== Over 73,000 Newsgroups - Including Dedicated Binaries Servers ==-----

This technique IS possible in DTR. MR Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.