DTR Sound

I love the game but boy does the sound need some tweaking, I sure hope that someone will be able to tweak and improve the sound after it is out. Can it be done Mr. Pabst? :) Cibb

The only thing wrong with the sound IMHO is that the engine revs don't change enough (i.e. car is revving like crazy, but sounds to be about 2000 rpm) No really, I at first thought they were terrible, but then I sorted out the decent speakers, plugged in the rear speakers (the game has 3D sound!!), whacked the bass and volume through the roof, and WAAAAAHHHHH!!! now if the engine revs just sounded to change more dramatically the sounds would truly kick ass, you just need good speakers (no not computer speakers with a sub, GOOD speakers :) ) Later Steve p.s. Oh yeah, doppler effects would be nice too (sat at the side of the road after a spin, cars don't change in pitch as they go by)

Do the Late Model's backfire at all? Racer X Veteran Sim Racer Victory Lane- http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/1423/

Hmm... I'll have to try that. I was thinking earlier I might as well not use the sound at all, it's so bad... We'll see... -- -----------------------------------+--------------------------------- ICQ #: 18197225 | http://members.xoom.com/morganv/ -----------------------------------+---------------------------------

In the game or in real-life? In the game they do. -- Kenneth Verburg Webmaster/Editor-in-chief High Gear http://www.simracingnews.com

I'm not saying the sound is great, but if the engine pitch was sorted it would be pretty good, personally I get more annoyed with the way collisions are handled. Target 12, no the Late Models don't backfire, but then I can't think of any games in which any any cars do :( *preparing to be ***ed with millions of "(insert game name here) DOES!" :)* Steve

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> On Fri, 5 Nov 1999 21:27:12 -0000, > >Target 12, no the Late Models don't backfire, but then I can't think of any > >games in which any any cars do :( > >*preparing to be ***ed with millions of "(insert game name here) DOES!" > >:)* > #1 - SCGT > next? > ;)

#2 F1RS Next! =-)) -- Chuck Kandler #70 ChuckK or KS70 on Won.net K&S Racing http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 The box said "Windows 95 or better", so I installed LINUX!

DOH! I even OWN that one :) All you experts out there, can anyone explain why nobody can simulate an engine sound that actually sounds like an engine? even the best games really do sound relatively bad. Thanks Steve

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> > #1 - SCGT > > next? > > ;) > DOH! I even OWN that one :) > All you experts out there, can anyone explain why nobody can simulate > an engine sound that actually sounds like an engine? even the best > games really do sound relatively bad. > Thanks > Steve

Because what we EXPECT to hear is often not what we really hear. Did you see the last F1 race from Japan? They had some special microphone that was attached to one of the cars. It was supposed to allow us to hear the true F1 sound. What did we get? A muted engine that sounded like it was continuously in a tunnel with an echo so bad we would have crucified it here. In the Winston cup races, the in car camera's allow sound as well, but where is the Microphone? Is it placed near the drivers head? (so we would get an approximation of what he hears), or is it next to the tail pipe so that we don't get the Engine noises but the exhaust notes. What about those Aussie BMW super touring cars. Man the scream of the straight cut gears COMPLETELY muffles the engine note. Where the Mike is placed and at what level it is recorded really can change the way a car sounds. So "perhaps" a developer might model the "perfect" engine note, but because we are expecting sound like we are condtitioned to on TV, or LIVE, then we are disappointed. dave henrie About 2 summers back I was able to attend my first Champ car race for the Cart Fed Ex cars. What was the biggest eye opener? The sounds! TV does not do justice to race noises. So why should we expect sound engineers working from race video tapes to come up with anything better?

A very good point. Another fundamental reason for the lack of realism is that games use looped samples. Real engine sounds change dynamically (like any real world sound); for example when accelerating the sound differs from when backing off. I think this is pronounced with race cars. We might get better sounds if the sound was synthesized in the fly using physical modeling instead of samples. Propably that is difficult to do well.

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>> > #1 - SCGT >> > next? >> > ;) >> DOH! I even OWN that one :) >> All you experts out there, can anyone explain why nobody can simulate >

an engine sound that actually sounds like an engine? even the best > games really do sound relatively bad.

And did it sound any good? (genuine question - after the *hem* wonderful comments about it I never even tried the demo.......) Dave Henries point about what we hear on the TV being weird because of mic placement was a good one, but even a strange (I can't think of a better way to put it - I'm sure you know what I mean) sound can capture the 'feel' of an engine, wheras most games just sound poor - it's probably just that the engine sound can't be seen on the back of the box so most companies just skim over it in order to spend more time on the graphics. Doesn't make it any less frustrating :( Steve

And in real life they do. That's the first thing I liked about the sound in DTR. Then I did what Steve did, worked with the speaker settings (on my Soundblaster Live!). It's completely acceptable now, although I think they could have output the sound on the PC speaker and I would have accepted that, as this game is just too much fun anyway. -Laurens de Jong, The Netherlands.

I've wanted this discussion for some time! :-)) From my racecar experience, none of the sims justify the actual feel. A much more complicated on-the-fly-physic rendering should be made ASAP! And also, I want lumpy idle!! One loop a la GPL can never do the trick IMO. Just listen to a DFV Cosworth, you should have backfiring, and the snarl as you get off the throttle. It shoud be made something like this IMO: -separate sounds on/off throttle, say 3 of each set to work in certain RPM ranges. With some sort of blending:-) -drivetrain sounds that work independently. -Dynamic wind/road noise that responds to surface/wind. -Everything inside the player car should very loud compared to other sounds! my 5 cents! Matt And lose the gearlever clack! No way you'll hear it!

sounds! Sounds good :) - I'm fairly sure GPL does the wind/road noise thing (to some extent), I don't know what the N3 sounds are like as I'm british - I got bored waiting for the UK release and now I can't afford it so I haven't even checked if it is out for a while :( Perhaps with the advent of decent soundcards and speakers (I'm no longer the only person I know who has decent speakers!!!!) game companies will start working on some decent sounds? Hell even my '85 mazda 626 sounds more like a racecar than most sims do :) NO we need the gearlever clack, remember this is on a computer screen, and unreliable buttons (I wan't to be told that my computer registered that I changed gear BEFORE it's too late....). Steve

No, no , no... don't take that away fron me... because this is the only good sound in most racing sims! BTW: Sometimes I doubt, if my real life car is a real car, because I never hear a gearlever clack. ;-)) CU Zolli

You have forgotten to include a very important fact: like taste and smell, we all hear things differently. So what, to one, may be perfectly acceptable may, to another sound woeful. -- Bruce KennewellHistoric Motor Racing Club (Grand Prix Legends):- [link lost in import] _______________________________ -----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==---------- http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World! ------== Over 73,000 Newsgroups - Including Dedicated Binaries Servers ==-----

A recorded sound, when pitched up or down, has a tendency to sound unreal to us. Think of the Chipmunks or Cygnus X1. Plus, pitching changes many characteristics of a sound, giving it different psychoacoustic placements. So the way sims deal with sound to start with contributes to the problem. As far as application goes, everyone else has answered that. Throttle down and lift must be two different sounds. Idle and lower revs should be two more. I could go on... But most importantly, the game companies need to take sound seriously. It's become obvious to me that they hire people who are well versed in audio software instead of people who are well versed in fidelity. It may be one of those things where the type of personality it takes to learn software is not optimum for learning sound. Or it could be that both take a lot of time to learn and no one has time for both. Whatever the case, none of the guys that have done sounds for the games I own have even rudimentary knowledge of sound. The mistakes made in GPL are so basic it's obvious. Any sound man worth his salt would have found them on day one. F1RS is beyond compare and GP500 was created on nothing but small speakers. (You can tell by it's limited band range.) In the end, software companies need to hire both a sound designer *and* a software engineer. And they have to work together. When the sound guy says it's clipping and the software guy says he can't hear it, he's just going to have to use his faith and imagination to find a way to make it right. That's what sound is my friends. It's the ability to create what's in someone else's head even though you've never heard it. Now that computers are involved the programmers need to learn to take leaps. When it sounds right the sound guy will tell you and whether you hear it or not, it's good because he says so. More money than that can be spent too. Did I forget to mention that you can't polish a turd? Well, you can't. If the recording is no good, the final production won't be good. What's the difference between a good and bad recording? In mic placement it can be 1/4 of an inch or 2 to 3 degrees angle. I'm not exaggerating. Shit or Shine. It's that critical. And the whole rest of the process falls under the same scrutiny. I could go on and on..... So if good sounds are what you want, somebody's gonna have to get serious. Like everything else - it aint gonna happen by accident. -- Mark Jeangerard www.soundchaserweb.com New Mexico USA

Well... Codemasters (Wrote TOCA, TOCA 2, CMR) visited my university (OK, three blokes who work there) and someone asked them about their sound department. They've got One bloke doing sound AND music,full time. There's 120 other designers, artists, and programmers.... how seriously is that taking it? Doug

Yes. Exactly my point, Doug. Thank you. It gets worse. It happens in music and theater and all forms of entertainment. Most of your favorite CD's are "skimped on" in the recording process. The big money goes to Marketing, Video, and pimping radio stations. The sound is of no consequence. This is the life I chose. :-) Examples of good sound, for those interested, are: TV - Coke commercials, Dave Letterman Theater - Cirque du Soleil Music - Dave Mathews "Crash" CD, Chick Corea in concert The worst part is, I've just named about 30% of all things that sound good in this universe. :-( -- Mark Jeangerard www.soundchaserweb.com New Mexico USA

Ok this is totally OT but here goes anyway ;) Have you ever listened to a Sheffield Labs CD ? They're recorded live to a 2 track mic, and the sound on a well setup hi-fi system is nothing short of astounding (even if the type of music is not my favourite) Though to be fair many movie producers are now starting to grasp the fact that the sound quality is something that can be improved on. The music industry on the other hand........ -- Ian Parker UKGPL League http://members.xoom.com/ukgpl/index.html http://www.ukgpl.com --

I haven't but will be off to buy it as soon as I find it. I have a passion for minimalist recordings. Big productions are fine too. But there is something about being in the room with the music... One of a kind experience. ...and how could I forget movies? George Lucas has single handedly raised public awareness of audio quality and location 100 fold. He's my hero. I can hardly wait 'til 'standard' music is in multichannel. That will be the day. -- Mark Jeangerard www.soundchaserweb.com New Mexico USA > Ok this is totally OT but here goes anyway ;) > Have you ever listened to a Sheffield Labs CD ? > They're recorded live to a 2 track mic, and the sound on a well setup hi-fi > system is nothing short of astounding (even if the type of music is not my > favourite) > Though to be fair many movie producers are now starting to grasp the fact > that the sound quality is something that can be improved on. The music > industry on the other hand........ > -- > Ian Parker > UKGPL League > http://members.xoom.com/ukgpl/index.html > http://www.ukgpl.com > -- > > Yes. Exactly my point, Doug. Thank you. It gets worse. It happens in music > > and theater and all forms of entertainment. Most of your favorite CD's are > > "skimped on" in the recording process. The big money goes to Marketing, > > Video, and pimping radio stations. The sound is of no consequence. > > This is the life I chose. :-) > > Examples of good sound, for those interested, are: > > TV - Coke commercials, Dave Letterman > > Theater - Cirque du Soleil > > Music - Dave Mathews "Crash" CD, Chick Corea in concert > > The worst part is, I've just named about 30% of all things that sound good > > in this universe. :-( > > -- > > Mark Jeangerard > > www.soundchaserweb.com > > New Mexico USA

Hi again, just hunted the CD's out, if you have trouble finding them, Sheffield Labs can be contacted at 1046 Washington St. Raleigh, NC 27605 or Tel (919) 829-1154 Fax (919) 829-0047 This is taken off a CD printed in 1993 so may be out of date by now but its all I've got to go on. -- Ian Parker UKGPL League http://members.xoom.com/ukgpl/index.html http://www.ukgpl.com --

Hmm.. you probably havent tried Viper Racing... In sim mode, with the gtrs model (by career or by hack), playing online with a good bunch drivers is just plain heaven. The sound of those deep 10 cylinders is beautiful.. Nothing compares. After spending a fair amount of time at ViperRacing, SCGT, Toca2, DTR and N3........ Im still in love with Viper Racing Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.