Why don't they tell the truth? (Greg Moore)

What annoys me most about the horrible crash of Greg Moore ( besides the lame discussion about what has to be done about safety-standards here on R.A.S. *after* something has happened) is the fact that Greg was surely instantly dead after having hit the wall going in head first (proven by the fact that there was not much reanimation going on by the medics, normally, if there is a chance for a guy to survive, you would see much longer work on the scene going on than we were having in Fontana). There wasn't even the attemt to try to even out the infield after Richie Hearn stirred up the grass at the *exact* same place Greg ran over a few minutes later, you could see a crater between the asphalt-service-road dividing the infield-grass. I don't know whether they fixed it after Gregs crash because I switched off my TV due to disgust. Yet, CART-officials kept it secret to go on with the show, to continue with the big business, to sell some more hotdogs on the grandstands, instead of having the guts to say: "Sorry folks, show is over, go home, we have had a casualty, so we are aborting this event". Same thing happened when Senna died, it's simply disgusting and respectless. Why is NASCAR the most popular series in the US? Could it be that they have the most and the most *spectacular* accidents around? Don't tell me it's because there are so many close battles going on. Why do we see traffic-jams on the streets as soon as an accident has happened on the *other* side of the highway? Don't tell me it's because ppl are slowing down to see if they can be of any help. Why do windows open as soon as an ambulance comes roaring down the street where that window would never be opened cause it's too cold outside? Don't tell me it's to let fresh air in. This society is sick .... yeah, tell me to dig a hole and hop in ..... thank you very much. In deep sadness Maaki

I don't think the oficials would want to tell the general public that Greg Moore had died untill his Family had been informed. If they had stopped the race everybody would have known and it wouldn't have been fair on his family. rob

On Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:43:25 +0100, "Markus Stiepel"

Quoted text (26 lines)

>What annoys me most about the horrible crash of Greg Moore ( besides the >lame discussion about what has to be done about safety-standards here on >R.A.S. *after* something has happened) is the fact that Greg was surely >instantly dead after having hit the wall going in head first (proven by the >fact that there was not much reanimation going on by the medics, normally, >if there is a chance for a guy to survive, you would see much longer work on >the scene going on than we were having in Fontana). There wasn't even the >attemt to try to even out the infield after Richie Hearn stirred up the >grass at the *exact* same place Greg ran over a few minutes later, you could >see a crater between the asphalt-service-road dividing the infield-grass. I >don't know whether they fixed it after Gregs crash because I switched off my >TV due to disgust. Yet, CART-officials kept it secret to go on with the >show, to continue with the big business, to sell some more hotdogs on the >grandstands, instead of having the guts to say: "Sorry folks, show is over, >go home, we have had a casualty, so we are aborting this event". Same thing >happened when Senna died, it's simply disgusting and respectless. Why is >NASCAR the most popular series in the US? Could it be that they have the >most and the most *spectacular* accidents around? Don't tell me it's because >there are so many close battles going on. Why do we see traffic-jams on the >streets as soon as an accident has happened on the *other* side of the >highway? Don't tell me it's because ppl are slowing down to see if they can >be of any help. Why do windows open as soon as an ambulance comes roaring >down the street where that window would never be opened cause it's too cold >outside? Don't tell me it's to let fresh air in. This society is sick .... >yeah, tell me to dig a hole and hop in ..... thank you very much. >In deep sadness

Two distinct reasons: One, they may have wanted to make sure the family was informed (as in the other post) and secondly only an official Medical Examiner can pronounce a person dead. Stupid law but that's the way it works. For instance, at a motorcycle accident where I was a witness the guy was dead as a doornail, as in head severed partially from body and brains coming out fo nose, eyeball, and a 9" rip on the backside of his head (yes, was wearing a helmet but it was torn from his head). They could not pronounce him dead on the scene *UNLESS* one of the medics present also had Medical Examiner credentials. As they don't they still had to attempt token revisions until they got him to the hospital where he was of course prounced dead as a doornail. By the same token police officers are not 'given the knowledge or understanding to pronounce health upon a person' or some line like that in which officers are also unable to prounounce people as dead, even when they've stuffed 30 or 40 holes through their noggin. As for the show, people die in the sport. It happens and it's expected. Some people go only to see the accidents. It's a fact of life much like those who would go to the Roman Games to watch gladiator's tear each other assunder and then get munched on by Lions (now *those* were the good old days!) It doesn't mean that when a catastrophe happens that the rest of the people need to know they are dead, especially when the audience IS used to seeing cars get totally destroyed and the driver getting out and walking away. Ayrton Senna's crash didn't even look bad but it was a freak accident that killed him. The driver at Laguna Seca's accident looked rather mild save for being tossed over the wall but he died nearly instantly and it STILL took an ME's qualified hand on the wrist to pronounce him dead. Would the race having been stopped at that point have accomplished anything? ____________________ Try not to let your mind wander. It is too small to be out by itself!

Police Officers can pronounce people dead, at least in California. If a person is obviously deceased then officers do not need a paramedic, coroner, or any other qualified medical personnel to pronounce someone deceased. However, if there is any chance to revive someone (such as a car accident, cardiac arrest) and medical personnel are immediately on scene they will almost always transport and make any and all attempts to save that persons life, including working for an extented period of time in the ER at the trauma center (such as Loma Linda hospital where Greg Moore was transported by Air Ambulance).

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> On Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:43:25 +0100, "Markus Stiepel" > >What annoys me most about the horrible crash of Greg Moore ( besides the > >lame discussion about what has to be done about safety-standards here on > >R.A.S. *after* something has happened) is the fact that Greg was surely > >instantly dead after having hit the wall going in head first (proven by

the > >fact that there was not much reanimation going on by the medics, normally, > >if there is a chance for a guy to survive, you would see much longer work on > >the scene going on than we were having in Fontana). There wasn't even the > >attemt to try to even out the infield after Richie Hearn stirred up the > >grass at the *exact* same place Greg ran over a few minutes later, you could > >see a crater between the asphalt-service-road dividing the infield-grass. I > >don't know whether they fixed it after Gregs crash because I switched off my > >TV due to disgust. Yet, CART-officials kept it secret to go on with the > >show, to continue with the big business, to sell some more hotdogs on the > >grandstands, instead of having the guts to say: "Sorry folks, show is over, > >go home, we have had a casualty, so we are aborting this event". Same thing > >happened when Senna died, it's simply disgusting and respectless. Why is > >NASCAR the most popular series in the US? Could it be that they have the > >most and the most *spectacular* accidents around? Don't tell me it's because > >there are so many close battles going on. Why do we see traffic-jams on the > >streets as soon as an accident has happened on the *other* side of the > >highway? Don't tell me it's because ppl are slowing down to see if they can > >be of any help. Why do windows open as soon as an ambulance comes roaring > >down the street where that window would never be opened cause it's too cold > >outside? Don't tell me it's to let fresh air in. This society is sick ....

Quoted text (35 lines)

> >yeah, tell me to dig a hole and hop in ..... thank you very much. > >In deep sadness > Two distinct reasons: One, they may have wanted to make sure the > family was informed (as in the other post) and secondly only an > official Medical Examiner can pronounce a person dead. Stupid law but > that's the way it works. For instance, at a motorcycle accident where > I was a witness the guy was dead as a doornail, as in head severed > partially from body and brains coming out fo nose, eyeball, and a 9" > rip on the backside of his head (yes, was wearing a helmet but it was > torn from his head). They could not pronounce him dead on the scene > *UNLESS* one of the medics present also had Medical Examiner > credentials. As they don't they still had to attempt token revisions > until they got him to the hospital where he was of course prounced > dead as a doornail. By the same token police officers are not 'given > the knowledge or understanding to pronounce health upon a person' or > some line like that in which officers are also unable to prounounce > people as dead, even when they've stuffed 30 or 40 holes through their > noggin. As for the show, people die in the sport. It happens and it's > expected. Some people go only to see the accidents. It's a fact of > life much like those who would go to the Roman Games to watch > gladiator's tear each other assunder and then get munched on by Lions > (now *those* were the good old days!) It doesn't mean that when a > catastrophe happens that the rest of the people need to know they are > dead, especially when the audience IS used to seeing cars get totally > destroyed and the driver getting out and walking away. Ayrton Senna's > crash didn't even look bad but it was a freak accident that killed > him. The driver at Laguna Seca's accident looked rather mild save for > being tossed over the wall but he died nearly instantly and it STILL > took an ME's qualified hand on the wrist to pronounce him dead. > Would the race having been stopped at that point have accomplished > anything? > ____________________ > Try not to let your mind wander. It is too small to be out by itself!

On Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:17:03 -0800, "Brian Summers"

Quoted text (9 lines)

>Police Officers can pronounce people dead, at least in California. If a >person is obviously deceased then officers do not need a paramedic, coroner, >or any other qualified medical personnel to pronounce someone deceased. >However, if there is any chance to revive someone (such as a car accident, >cardiac arrest) and medical personnel are immediately on scene they will >almost always transport and make any and all attempts to save that persons >life, including working for an extented period of time in the ER at the >trauma center (such as Loma Linda hospital where Greg Moore was transported >by Air Ambulance).

It might vary by state then or under extreme circumstances: "His head was over there, his body was over there. I'm pretty sure he's dead give or take Dr. Frankenstein!" (it is Halloween, right? :) Under most of the states that I have lived in it has to be an ME or equivalent to pronounce death, time of death, cause of death, etc. ____________________ Try not to let your mind wander. It is too small to be out by itself!

Gonzalo Rodriquez died at Laguna... -- Oliver Nikolic DP-MAX Computers http://www.dp-max.co.yu/ BeoRocket Racing Team (retired) http://www.beorocket.co.yu/ > On Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:43:25 +0100, "Markus Stiepel" > >What annoys me most about the horrible crash of Greg Moore ( besides the > >lame discussion about what has to be done about safety-standards here on > >R.A.S. *after* something has happened) is the fact that Greg was surely > >instantly dead after having hit the wall going in head first (proven by the > >fact that there was not much reanimation going on by the medics, normally, > >if there is a chance for a guy to survive, you would see much longer work on > >the scene going on than we were having in Fontana). There wasn't even the > >attemt to try to even out the infield after Richie Hearn stirred up the > >grass at the *exact* same place Greg ran over a few minutes later, you could > >see a crater between the asphalt-service-road dividing the infield-grass. I > >don't know whether they fixed it after Gregs crash because I switched off my > >TV due to disgust. Yet, CART-officials kept it secret to go on with the > >show, to continue with the big business, to sell some more hotdogs on the > >grandstands, instead of having the guts to say: "Sorry folks, show is over, > >go home, we have had a casualty, so we are aborting this event". Same thing > >happened when Senna died, it's simply disgusting and respectless. Why is > >NASCAR the most popular series in the US? Could it be that they have the > >most and the most *spectacular* accidents around? Don't tell me it's because > >there are so many close battles going on. Why do we see traffic-jams on the > >streets as soon as an accident has happened on the *other* side of the > >highway? Don't tell me it's because ppl are slowing down to see if they can > >be of any help. Why do windows open as soon as an ambulance comes roaring > >down the street where that window would never be opened cause it's too cold > >outside? Don't tell me it's to let fresh air in. This society is sick .... > >yeah, tell me to dig a hole and hop in ..... thank you very much. > >In deep sadness > Two distinct reasons: One, they may have wanted to make sure the > family was informed (as in the other post) and secondly only an > official Medical Examiner can pronounce a person dead. Stupid law but > that's the way it works. For instance, at a motorcycle accident where > I was a witness the guy was dead as a doornail, as in head severed > partially from body and brains coming out fo nose, eyeball, and a 9" > rip on the backside of his head (yes, was wearing a helmet but it was > torn from his head). They could not pronounce him dead on the scene > *UNLESS* one of the medics present also had Medical Examiner > credentials. As they don't they still had to attempt token revisions > until they got him to the hospital where he was of course prounced > dead as a doornail. By the same token police officers are not 'given > the knowledge or understanding to pronounce health upon a person' or > some line like that in which officers are also unable to prounounce > people as dead, even when they've stuffed 30 or 40 holes through their > noggin. As for the show, people die in the sport. It happens and it's > expected. Some people go only to see the accidents. It's a fact of > life much like those who would go to the Roman Games to watch > gladiator's tear each other assunder and then get munched on by Lions > (now *those* were the good old days!) It doesn't mean that when a > catastrophe happens that the rest of the people need to know they are > dead, especially when the audience IS used to seeing cars get totally > destroyed and the driver getting out and walking away. Ayrton Senna's > crash didn't even look bad but it was a freak accident that killed > him. The driver at Laguna Seca's accident looked rather mild save for > being tossed over the wall but he died nearly instantly and it STILL > took an ME's qualified hand on the wrist to pronounce him dead. > Would the race having been stopped at that point have accomplished > anything? > ____________________ > Try not to let your mind wander. It is too small to be out by itself!

I understand that and I'm fine with that, but was there or wasn't a increased risk for the rest of the drivers do to Hearn's accident? -- Oliver Nikolic DP-MAX Computers http://www.dp-max.co.yu/ BeoRocket Racing Team (retired) http://www.beorocket.co.yu/

Agreed. That probably played a major role in it. Besides, I'm sure that there was at least SOME sort of resuscitation attempted. Granted, I knew when I saw the accident that Greg wasn't going to make it, but stranger things have happened. They had to give the doctors a shot, just in case. I wouldn't want them to do it any differently if it were me...

On the front page of our shitty little newspaper in Timmins, Ontario, Canada, the had a picture of Moore as he was about to be loaded into the helicopter on his way to the hospital. On the picture, it can be clearly seen that the medics were still attempting resescitation with one gent squeezing the air bottle with the hose down Moore's throat. Another medic was holding an IV bag, and Moore was on a backboard with a neckbrace. The picture was in bad taste, but it shows the medics still attempting to save Moore's life..... Dave

Hey these guys are all racing drivers, they know the risks. Both Greg Moore and Aryton Senna and every other driver that has been killed at a race would not want the race and day to finish, they would want everyone to try and enjoy themselves.

A driver is never pronounced dead at the track. (Policy) Not nowadays anyway... Matt -- ---------------------- The GPL Preservation Society http://www.gpl.netti.nu http://KOTR.de/gpl **GPLEA Member**

On Tue, 02 Nov 1999 06:42:16 +0100, "Matthew B. P. Knutsen" >A driver is never pronounced dead at the track. (Policy) >Not nowadays anyway... Did I watch a different race then? Sometime during the second half the doctor said it publicly on tv and after that you could see that they lowered the flags - still everyone was happily racing. I found that quite disgusting. --Tel

Greg was pronounced dead at the hospital, NOT the track. You are confusing the actual call of time of death that goes on one's death certificate with an announcement of one's death to the public. Two entirely different things......

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>On Tue, 02 Nov 1999 06:42:16 +0100, "Matthew B. P. Knutsen" >>A driver is never pronounced dead at the track. (Policy) >>Not nowadays anyway... >Did I watch a different race then? Sometime during the second half the >doctor said it publicly on tv and after that you could see that they >lowered the flags - still everyone was happily racing. I found that >quite disgusting.

At which point the driver had already been airlifted to the hospital where he was pronounced dead. That they relayed it to the track during the race is irrelevant. His point was that the driver was not declared dead while still at the track. Why do you find it disgusting that they didn't just stop the race? Life goes on. People die. "Stop the war! Someone got shot!" ____________________ Polititians & Diapers have one thing in common: They should both be changed regularly and for the same reason!

Not to mention, it may have been the family's wishes that the race be continued. CART was going to cancel the awards banquet for Monday but the Moore family asked that they carry on with the banquet in honor of Greg. The Moore family may have requested, after being informed, that the race continue.

On Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:43:25 +0100, "Markus Stiepel" :What annoys me most about the horrible crash of Greg Moore ( besides the :lame discussion about what has to be done about safety-standards here on :R.A.S. *after* something has happened) is the fact that Greg was surely :instantly dead after having hit the wall going in head first (proven by the :fact that there was not much reanimation going on by the medics, normally, :if there is a chance for a guy to survive, you would see much longer work on :the scene going on than we were having in Fontana). There wasn't even the :attemt to try to even out the infield after Richie Hearn stirred up the :grass at the *exact* same place Greg ran over a few minutes later, you could :see a crater between the asphalt-service-road dividing the infield-grass. I :don't know whether they fixed it after Gregs crash because I switched off my :TV due to disgust. Yet, CART-officials kept it secret to go on with the :show, to continue with the big business, to sell some more hotdogs on the :grandstands, instead of having the guts to say: "Sorry folks, show is over, :go home, we have had a casualty, so we are aborting this event". Same thing :happened when Senna died, it's simply disgusting and respectless. Why is :NASCAR the most popular series in the US? Could it be that they have the :most and the most *spectacular* accidents around? Don't tell me it's because :there are so many close battles going on. Why do we see traffic-jams on the :streets as soon as an accident has happened on the *other* side of the :highway? Don't tell me it's because ppl are slowing down to see if they can :be of any help. Why do windows open as soon as an ambulance comes roaring :down the street where that window would never be opened cause it's too cold :outside? Don't tell me it's to let fresh air in. This society is sick .... :yeah, tell me to dig a hole and hop in ..... thank you very much. :In deep sadness :Maaki : : : Auto sports are dangerous.. Anyone who drives in auto sports risks death. That's just the way it is I'm afraid. Greg Moore knew what he was getting into.