How many have to die?

How many young drivers have to loose their lives, before americans learn that you put tires or waterbarriers in front of walls? Its absolutely absurd that the inside walls don't have any impactreducing material... I don't wanna flame the "american" way, but hey who has the most dangerous tracks in the world? I would like to send my prayers and condolences to the family and friends of GM. -- Cheers RP E-mail: rp at post1 dot com

Well it sure as heck makes sense to me!!! I feel sick right now after watching CART Today. I am just very sad, and if it could have been prevented by Tires or Waterbarriers than shame on us. Let not let it happen again!!!

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>How many young drivers have to loose their lives, before americans >learn that you put tires or waterbarriers in front of walls? >Its absolutely absurd that the inside walls don't have any >impactreducing material... >I don't wanna flame the "american" way, but hey who has the most >dangerous tracks in the world? >I would like to send my prayers and condolences to the family and >friends of GM. >-- >Cheers >RP >E-mail: rp at post1 dot com

I do believe they need to do more with the walls but even if they did what you said Greg Moore would still have lost his life. The car was going close to 220MPH when it hit the wall, the G-force alone killed him. -- Jeff Murchison JR Screamers League Admin www.abraxis.com/jmurch My Xterra www.abraxis.com/jmurch/xterra

I agree, maybe its the cars that need to be improved, airbags or something

Watch the replay again, it had nothing to do with the barrier. Richie Hearn had the identical spin and contact with the same wall about 15 minutes earlier and walked away. What killed Greg was the way the car hit the wall. Richie was fortunate that his car straightened out before he hit the edge of the service road, Greg's did not, the tires caught the berm and the car was pitched over into the wall. The way the car hit, water barrels or tire walls wouldn't have made any difference. This is the area that needs to be looked into by CART. Gonzolo's death was also caused by the car getting airborne and hitting a previously sufficient barrier at an odd angle. An extra tire barrier might have helped in Gonzolo's case, but in over 30 years, there hadn't been a incident of that type in that corner. Unfortunatly, sometimes we must learn from our mistakes. It's time to get CART off of the superspeedways. I was at the track this weekend. I love to watch these cars at their limit, but this is too high a price to pay. Godspeed Greg, we'll miss you. don

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>How many young drivers have to loose their lives, before americans >learn that you put tires or waterbarriers in front of walls? >Its absolutely absurd that the inside walls don't have any >impactreducing material... >I don't wanna flame the "american" way, but hey who has the most >dangerous tracks in the world? >I would like to send my prayers and condolences to the family and >friends of GM. >-- >Cheers >RP >E-mail: rp at post1 dot com

As an amatuer racer, I too was very much shocked and saddened by what happened to Greg Moore today, as I was by what happened to Gonzalo Rodriguez recently. However, I truly believe that both of these situations were freak accidents, and that CART goes quite a long way towards ensuring the safety at their events. That being said though, I would still like to see some more improvements in track safety at the superspeedways. Even Indianapolis has installed an impact reducing barrier at the exit to turn four on the inside, and it certainly helped (just ask Aurie Luyendyk about his IROC accident last year). A similar modification was made to Rio several years ago and it also proved useful on several occasions.

> How many young drivers have to loose their lives, before americans > learn that you put tires or waterbarriers in front of walls? > Its absolutely absurd that the inside walls don't have any > impactreducing material... Save your self-righteous bull. Half the safety measures now in F1 were first instituted by CART. Besides, maybe we stupid Americans don't want to turn CART into the same trolley race that F1 has become. The hell you don't. If that were true, you'd keep your flapping maw shut. You picked a great time to climb up on your soapbox and spout your sophomoric drivel. Couldn't wait until Greg cooled a bit could you. Yeah. Cheers my ass. -- Bob Curtin Worcester Area Strategy & Tactics Exchange http://www.tiac.net/users/ten10ths/ "If God had intended men to join the Army he would have given us green, baggy skin"

> > How many young drivers have to loose their lives, before americans > > learn that you put tires or waterbarriers in front of walls? > > Its absolutely absurd that the inside walls don't have any > > impactreducing material... Please enlighten me, as a simple minded American I don't pretend to know everything. Exacltly what kind of material can be put in front of a wall that can prevent life threatening injuries when the wall is hit helmet first at about 240 mph? You don't want flames...Then maybe you should have replaced the word "American" with "track owners" or "race promoters". I too, will be sending my prayer to Greg Moore's family and friends. mike miller

>How many young drivers have to loose their lives, before americans >learn that you put tires or waterbarriers in front of walls? >I don't wanna flame the "american" way, but hey who has the most >dangerous tracks in the world? I may be a stupid American, but at least I know the difference between lose and loose. ~daxe -----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==---------- http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World! ------== Over 73,000 Newsgroups - Including Dedicated Binaries Servers ==-----

Why couldn't you put snadtraps on the insides of the ovals, such as where greg and richie went off. It could have slowed them down considerably more, when you hit that grass, there is absolutely no deceleration at all. I know it wouldn't look as pretty, but I think it would be a hell of a lot safer.

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>> How many young drivers have to loose their lives, before americans >> learn that you put tires or waterbarriers in front of walls? >> Its absolutely absurd that the inside walls don't have any >> impactreducing material... >Save your self-righteous bull.

Too damn true! Death sells, and those guys drive fast because of the tension of getting killed. What an adrenaline rush. Why take death away from motor racing? That's what everyone wants in their subconciousness! If they didn't want to live in the fear of dying, they wouldn't be driving. /sarcasm

The cars already have a bunch of padding to keep the driver from moving about. For years Cart has had Ford doing studies on accidents. Unfortunately you cannot always controls what happens in an accident and someone pays for it. Jeff Kronsoff did and now Greg Moore. I feel for both of their families, but also I understand Greg Moore got into that car and ran the race today, knowing of the hazards that lay out there for him. David Robinson.

I feel CART has no business racing on some of the tracks in the schedule. The road courses are fine, and the street races usually have lower speeds, so they are ok. But these high speed Nascar tracks should not have these cart cars on them at the speeds they run. It is too dangerous for both driver and fans. -- Kevin Anderson ICQ # 6769389

You guys will always find something to fight about -- Kevin Anderson ICQ # 6769389 > > > How many young drivers have to loose their lives, before americans > > > learn that you put tires or waterbarriers in front of walls? > > > Its absolutely absurd that the inside walls don't have any > > > impactreducing material... > Please enlighten me, as a simple minded American I don't pretend to know > everything. Exacltly what kind of material can be put in front of a wall > that can prevent life threatening injuries when the wall is hit helmet first > at about 240 mph? > > > I don't wanna flame the "american" way, but hey who has the most > > > dangerous tracks in the world? > You don't want flames...Then maybe you should have replaced the word > "American" with "track owners" or "race promoters". > > > I would like to send my prayers and condolences to the family and > > > friends of GM. > > > -- > > > Cheers > > > RP > I too, will be sending my prayer to Greg Moore's family and friends. > mike miller

On Sun, 31 Oct 1999 16:46:07 -0800, "don hodgdon" >The way the car hit, water barrels or tire walls >wouldn't have made any difference. Can we agree on the fact that the impact when hittin a tirewall as not as *** as when hitting a clean wall. In adition to that, we could start talking about why we have all that grass all over the place, asphalt or even a graveltrap would be much better en stoping the cars, and asphalt wouldn't flip the cars over... -- Cheers RP E-mail: rp at post1 dot com

yes, and thank god for that, but this still doesn't change the fact that its plain stupid not to have anything on front of those walls. Its so easy to do it (especially in the inside walls) F1 is boring as hell, but thats because the people controlling things don't know shit about racing. I love Cart racing, and I wouldn't even watch F1, if I weren't a big Schumi fan. Why, and wait for another driver to get killed? The cars in Cart are safe as hell, and the safety crews are amongst (if not THE) best in the world. But its so simple and cheap to put up tirewalls. Nobody would watch Cart if it wasn't dangerous, but theres no reason to be wreckless. Look at laguna. You come drivin straight at a wall when you aproach the screw, but there where only 1 or 2 rows of tires, thats simply not enough - another life lost. Nobody want's Cart to be like F1. And f1 isn't boring because of the passive safety in the tracks. Its boring because the coverning body changes the wrong thing on the cars. If they put slicks back on the cars, and removed some of the aurodynamical helps, ie make the wings smaller. (I'm no expert - that just makes sence to me, more mechanical grip - a more stable car. Less wing, less problems with slipstreaming) -- Cheers RP E-mail: rp at post1 dot com

I've never said that Americans are stupid. But you have to agree with ne on the fact that you do have some of the most dangerous tracks in use today. Everything helps. Its just a matter of how much is needed at a certain speed. Its always easy to come up with the answer to a problem, after its happened. But on all other tracks around the world you see tirewalls, why not on all the ovals to? Yes, I do apologize for that one (I was really pissed at the time) I did not wan't to come with a stupid remark like that, but hey on the other hand if you look at what tracks have the least passive safety they are "american". But yes, the correct word would have been track owners and / or race promoters - sorry about that. -- Cheers RP E-mail: rp at post1 dot com

On Mon, 01 Nov 1999 05:29:39 GMT, "Kevin Anderson" >You guys will always find something to fight about I don't think anyone ( well 98% ) disagrees with the fact that we could do with more safety - what pissed people of was my use of "americans" -- Cheers RP E-mail: rp at post1 dot com

On Sun, 31 Oct 1999 18:45:40 -0800, "Jeff Murchison JR" >I do believe they need to do more with the walls but even if they did what >you said Greg Moore would still have lost his life. The car was going close >to 220MPH when it hit the wall, the G-force alone killed him. Probably, but if there was something there to absorb some of the impact, then maybe - just maybe he (and others) would survive. I know that the way he hit the wall, was very bad (damn, can't really shake the image :( ) but tire/waterwalls _have_ saved lives before. -- Cheers RP E-mail: rp at post1 dot com

On Sun, 31 Oct 1999 22:37:38 -0500, "Daxe Rexford" >I may be a stupid American, but at least I know the difference between lose >and loose. oh great - *** about a typo. I've commented on my original post elsewhere. Regarding the fact that I have _never_ called americans stupid... -- Cheers RP E-mail: rp at post1 dot com

>Why couldn't you put snadtraps on the insides of the ovals, such as where >greg and richie went off. It could have slowed them down considerably more, >when you hit that grass, there is absolutely no deceleration at all. I know >it wouldn't look as pretty, but I think it would be a hell of a lot safer. Yes, or even asphalt (gravel could flip the car like the grass did with Greg) would help alot. -- Cheers RP E-mail: rp at post1 dot com

I don't think Americans are stupid, lets get that thing cleared up. It should have said - Track owners, race promoters, and so on. I'm sorry about that. -- Cheers RP E-mail: rp at post1 dot com

From what i saw on the replay, there was no way any sort of "wall padding" would've helped. for a little touch of sad irony does anyone remeber who the winner of the race that Jeff Krosnoff died in?? Adrian Fernadez.... cruel twist... also, I was at the track saturday.. and it was windy as hell, not sure about sunday though.. if so, could that have played a part in him losing it? We will all miss Greg Moore Blaine Bett On 1 Nov 1999 01:56:55 GMT, "DAVID "

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>The cars already have a bunch of padding to keep the driver from moving >about. For years Cart has had Ford doing studies on accidents. >Unfortunately you cannot always controls what happens in an accident and >someone pays for it. Jeff Kronsoff did and now Greg Moore. I feel for >both of their families, but also I understand Greg Moore got into that car >and ran the race today, knowing of the hazards that lay out there for him. >David Robinson. >> I agree, maybe its the cars that need to be improved, airbags or >something

No, what pissed me off is people like you (politicians are famous for this crap) are always so wise after the fact -- armed with 20/20 hindsight.. You shake your head gravely and act like the rest of us are such morons for not catching this earlier. Well I didn't see your post on Friday or earlier in the week. I read it yesterday, and I haven't seen you campaigning for waterbarriers on ovals before yesterday. Why yesterday? You're damned right. You put your hindsight glasses on and proclaimed instant expertise on the subject. You jumped on a tragedy and inflicted your condescending drivel on the rest of us as if we haven't a clue how to go about tying our own shoes never mind looking at the incident rationally to work to keep it from happening again. Your boorish "When will you Americans ever learn" approach certainly didn't help, but your overall approach was like walking into a funeral and criticizing the family for buying the car in which the kid killed himself. Now is the time to start campaigning for CART to start racing in padded tubes with closed circuit TV so the spectators can watch. That will not only protect the drivers from crashing into walls, but protect the spectators as well. We can start working on wrap-around crash cages so that the chance of anyone getting hurt by car-to-car collisions within the tubes is reduced. Fire can be eliminated by piping high pressure foam and inert gasses into the tube at the first sign of smoke, and the drivers can be suspended in high-tech padding inside their cars with room left for foot and arm movement. All other controls can be taken care of by telemetry from the pits as a driver requests it based on the information displayed on his helmet HUD. Racing in tubes will also eliminate sun glare. The most dangerous time in a race is during high-speed passing, so why I don't understand why the rules of engagement aren't changed. Perhaps when Michael wants to pass Paul, Mike calls the officials on his helmet radio and asks for permission to pass Paul. The official can roll a die and, based on a chart, can decide whether or not Mike can pass Paul. If so, then Paul must allow the pass in the safest manner possible while still providing a show for the fans. Get the point yet?

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> On Mon, 01 Nov 1999 05:29:39 GMT, "Kevin Anderson" > >You guys will always find something to fight about > I don't think anyone ( well 98% ) disagrees with the fact that we > could do with more safety - what pissed people of was my use of > "americans" > -- > Cheers > RP > E-mail: rp at post1 dot com

-- Bob Curtin Worcester Area Strategy & Tactics Exchange http://www.tiac.net/users/ten10ths/ "If God had intended men to join the Army he would have given us green, baggy skin"

Wasn't Fernandez also the one who lost the front wheel which killed the three spectators last year?? If he was, that twist is even crueler..... Dave

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>From what i saw on the replay, there was no way any sort of "wall >padding" would've helped. for a little touch of sad irony >does anyone remeber who the winner of the race that Jeff Krosnoff >died in?? Adrian Fernadez.... cruel twist... >also, I was at the track saturday.. and it was windy as hell, not sure >about sunday though.. if so, could that have played a part in him >losing it? >We will all miss Greg Moore >Blaine Bett >On 1 Nov 1999 01:56:55 GMT, "DAVID " >>The cars already have a bunch of padding to keep the driver from moving >>about. For years Cart has had Ford doing studies on accidents. >>Unfortunately you cannot always controls what happens in an accident and >>someone pays for it. Jeff Kronsoff did and now Greg Moore. I feel for >>both of their families, but also I understand Greg Moore got into that car >>and ran the race today, knowing of the hazards that lay out there for him. >>David Robinson. >>> I agree, maybe its the cars that need to be improved, airbags or >>something

I wonder what would happen at speeds in excess of 200 mph with a car going thru a sand trap. Remember Andretti's accident at Mid Ohio last year. Yes he did walk away with a lot of help from P.J. Jones. Dave > Why couldn't you put snadtraps on the insides of the ovals, such as where > greg and richie went off. It could have slowed them down considerably more, > when you hit that grass, there is absolutely no deceleration at all. I know > it wouldn't look as pretty, but I think it would be a hell of a lot safer.

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> > How many young drivers have to loose their lives, before americans > > learn that you put tires or waterbarriers in front of walls? > > Its absolutely absurd that the inside walls don't have any > > impactreducing material... > > I don't wanna flame the "american" way, but hey who has the most > > dangerous tracks in the world? > > I would like to send my prayers and condolences to the family and > > friends of GM. > > -- > > Cheers > > RP > > E-mail: rp at post1 dot com

From what I've seen of European courses, I guess we Americans decided to kill the drivers, while you Europeans decided to kill spectators.

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> How many young drivers have to loose their lives, before americans > learn that you put tires or waterbarriers in front of walls? > Its absolutely absurd that the inside walls don't have any > impactreducing material... > I don't wanna flame the "american" way, but hey who has the most > dangerous tracks in the world? > I would like to send my prayers and condolences to the family and > friends of GM. > -- > Cheers > RP > E-mail: rp at post1 dot com

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> On Mon, 01 Nov 1999 05:29:39 GMT, "Kevin Anderson" > >You guys will always find something to fight about > I don't think anyone ( well 98% ) disagrees with the fact that we > could do with more safety - what pissed people of was my use of > "americans" > -- > Cheers > RP

Ronnie, Yes Ronnie,you really pissed me off with that one. And American tracks,racing associations,driver associations,and insurance companies have done quite a lot in terms of improving safety. Joel Willstein

Expertise? Sure you have to be real clever to see that grass does not slow down a car, and a clean wall does a pretty poor job if absorbing impact. Of course its always easy to look at thing in hindsigt, but nobody cares about a "Better safety" discussion until someone dies. The big change ind F1 saftety didn't start until Ratzenberger and Senna died. Ok so I make a comment about safety after Greg died... and you flame for it. I just think its sad that people have do die for the passive safety around tracks (nevermind on the cars) is improved. 3 people where killed at Michican before the fencing was made higher. GR had to die at Laguna for 2 or 3 more rows of tires to be placed at the corkscrew. And you blame ME for only looking with hindsight. EH?! Greg died, because 1) He was driving at 200+mph at the time of the crash ie 2) The grass didn't do shit to stop the car and 3) it dumped the car around, making him hit a 4) wall with no padding at all 5) way to fast. I've never said that Americans are stupid (but sometimes I do wonder why its so hard for some to understand this) i just said that the safety is to bad. People have been saying this for years. When will you learn then? "You" have some of the safest cars, the best safety crews and so on. Why not start working some more on the prevention of accidents instead of the cure? A simple cheap tirebarrier is all I ask for. <snip - ridiculous babble> *Shaking head* If the Nascars have restrictors on that keep them from driving to fast on the big ovals, why don't the cart's have the same? Who cares if they are running at 240 or 180mph? People wanna see close racing, at these speed - hell they can't even see whats happening. I agree with you on the fact that nobody wan't to see it if it ain't interresting, and thrilling. But thats no reason not to make the tracks safer. It would be a shame to put chicanes on everywhere, but bigger run offs would do a lot of good. I can't see any reason to continue this argument, because this ain't gonna get any of us anywhere. If you can't accept the fact that I belive that most of the tracks on the calendar could do with better safety then thats ok, nothing I can do about that - but lets just hope that someone does react. Racing should be just that - Racing. not Boring and sertainly not ***y. Safety has come a long way, but it sure ain't as good as it could be. -- Cheers RP E-mail: rp at post1 dot com

no padding wouldnt help, You can die by diving into water and that is real soft, look at the plane that crashed an killed 217, When you go past a certain speed point nothing will help you except to slow down is the only solution

True Ronny but honestly after seeing that terrible crash I don't think that any *** barrier would of prevented the outcome of the accident... Such a shame. -- Oliver Nikolic DP-MAX Computers http://www.dp-max.co.yu/ BeoRocket Racing Team (retired) http://www.beorocket.co.yu/

I agree Don I replayed to Ronny without reading the follow ups... so you too think that the fatal wall was just in a stupid place and positioned in such an odd angle? Also is that Hanford Wing safe to use on S.Speedways? Lot of guys complained about the turbulence and the loss of grip!? Anyway no talk will bring two young man back. -- Oliver Nikolic DP-MAX Computers http://www.dp-max.co.yu/ BeoRocket Racing Team (retired) http://www.beorocket.co.yu/

I agree Bob, You can't judge the whole nation because of few people who made that truck or because few people who run the Government... But also Bob no need to be rude toward anybody here it's a shame what happened and no need to blame anyone... I think that the wall shouldn't be positioned the way it is but other than that nothing could of saved poor Greg. I hope you agree with me... -- Oliver Nikolic DP-MAX Computers http://www.dp-max.co.yu/ BeoRocket Racing Team (retired) http://www.beorocket.co.yu/ > > How many young drivers have to loose their lives, before americans > > learn that you put tires or waterbarriers in front of walls? > > Its absolutely absurd that the inside walls don't have any > > impactreducing material... > Save your self-righteous bull. Half the safety measures now in F1 were > first instituted by CART. Besides, maybe we stupid Americans don't want > to turn CART into the same trolley race that F1 has become. > > I don't wanna flame the "american" way, but hey who has the most > > dangerous tracks in the world? > The hell you don't. If that were true, you'd keep your flapping maw > shut. You picked a great time to climb up on your soapbox and spout > your sophomoric drivel. Couldn't wait until Greg cooled a bit could > you. > > I would like to send my prayers and condolences to the family and > > friends of GM. > > -- > > Cheers > > RP > Yeah. Cheers my ass. > > E-mail: rp at post1 dot com > -- > Bob Curtin > Worcester Area Strategy & Tactics Exchange > http://www.tiac.net/users/ten10ths/ > "If God had intended men to join the Army he would have given us green, > baggy skin"

: The big : change ind F1 saftety didn't start until Ratzenberger and Senna died. Hmm... I think you're underestimating the roles of Jackie Stewart and Prof Sid Watkins. (the prof's book "Life at the Limit" is truly excellent). -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

>> It's time to get CART off of the superspeedways. I was at the track this >> weekend. I love to watch these cars at their limit, but this is too high a >> price to pay. Oh dear god do NOT go on about how we should be saved from ourselves! This is NOT Planet Nerf for crying out loud and you CAN get hurt! Let me guess, next it will be "Don't ban bungee jumping but make sure there is a huge airbag at the bottom just in case" or "All bicycles should have safety airbags in case you fall off" or something. For crying out loud these machines are designed to be as safe as reasonably possible and have proven that they are time and time again. Freak accidents do occur and they can have tragic results leading up to and including death. Deal with it! He knew what he was doing when he climbed into the car and I hardly think he could have made it as far as he did without having a few serious carreer considering accidents along the way. That said, he knew the risks, he died doing what he wanted to be doing, and everything leadin up to and including the crash was prepared to the best of everyone's given ability. You can't have it both ways you know. You either love it or you don't. I sure as hell don't want everyone shutting down the tracks so that I can't race the cars I want to race. After all, if they do that then people get frustrated and take it to the streets and THAT is where tragedies occur. ____________________ Try not to let your mind wander. It is too small to be out by itself!

I'm not sure traditional barrier types would have made much difference in a crash at those speeds, but you're right. Something needs to be done--stop racing ovals, massive re-engineering of facilities and cars, something. Jerry Morelock

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> Well it sure as heck makes sense to me!!! I feel sick right now after > watching CART Today. I am just very sad, and if it could have been > prevented by Tires or Waterbarriers than shame on us. Let not let it > happen again!!! > >How many young drivers have to loose their lives, before americans > >learn that you put tires or waterbarriers in front of walls? > >Its absolutely absurd that the inside walls don't have any > >impactreducing material... > >I don't wanna flame the "american" way, but hey who has the most > >dangerous tracks in the world? > >I would like to send my prayers and condolences to the family and > >friends of GM. > >-- > >Cheers > >RP > >E-mail: rp at post1 dot com

Don't bother trying to explain it. Some folks just seem to believe that we should all be treated as if humans were an endangered species.

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> >> It's time to get CART off of the superspeedways. I was at the track this > >> weekend. I love to watch these cars at their limit, but this is too high a > >> price to pay. > Oh dear god do NOT go on about how we should be saved from ourselves! > This is NOT Planet Nerf for crying out loud and you CAN get hurt! Let > me guess, next it will be "Don't ban bungee jumping but make sure > there is a huge airbag at the bottom just in case" or "All bicycles > should have safety airbags in case you fall off" or something. For > crying out loud these machines are designed to be as safe as > reasonably possible and have proven that they are time and time again. > Freak accidents do occur and they can have tragic results leading up > to and including death. Deal with it! He knew what he was doing when > he climbed into the car and I hardly think he could have made it as > far as he did without having a few serious carreer considering > accidents along the way. That said, he knew the risks, he died doing > what he wanted to be doing, and everything leadin up to and including > the crash was prepared to the best of everyone's given ability. You > can't have it both ways you know. You either love it or you don't. I > sure as hell don't want everyone shutting down the tracks so that I > can't race the cars I want to race. After all, if they do that then > people get frustrated and take it to the streets and THAT is where > tragedies occur. > ____________________ > Try not to let your mind wander. It is too small to be out by itself!

-- Bob Curtin Worcester Area Strategy & Tactics Exchange http://www.tiac.net/users/ten10ths/ "If God had intended men to join the Army he would have given us green, baggy skin"

Not good enough. They should consult Ronnie. He's the real expert.

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> > On Mon, 01 Nov 1999 05:29:39 GMT, "Kevin Anderson" > > >You guys will always find something to fight about > > I don't think anyone ( well 98% ) disagrees with the fact that we > > could do with more safety - what pissed people of was my use of > > "americans" > > -- > > Cheers > > RP > Ronnie, > Yes Ronnie,you really pissed me off with that one. And American > tracks,racing associations,driver associations,and insurance companies have > done quite a lot in terms of improving safety. > Joel Willstein

-- Bob Curtin Worcester Area Strategy & Tactics Exchange http://www.tiac.net/users/ten10ths/ "If God had intended men to join the Army he would have given us green, baggy skin"

: For crying out loud these machines are designed to be as safe as : reasonably possible and have proven that they are time and time again. What is "reasonably possible" is surely a matter of opinion. I think that it is easily possible that F1 and CART cars could both be made much safer without any ill effects to the "sport". : Freak accidents do occur and they can have tragic results leading up : to and including death. When you're getting two a year can you really say they're "freak" accidents. To me that indicates an unacceptable level of danger for the drivers. : Deal with it! He knew what he was doing when : he climbed into the car and I hardly think he could have made it as : far as he did without having a few serious carreer considering : accidents along the way. That said, he knew the risks, he died doing : what he wanted to be doing, and everything leadin up to and including : the crash was prepared to the best of everyone's given ability. I'm sorry, but I disagree with you here. There are circuits that all drivers dislike and consider unsafe. They may "know what they're doing" but I bet also that most drivers would prefer to know that it was a bit safer. You could make the same "own free choice" and "know what they're doing" argument at any period of motor sport and it would have been equally spurious. Safety can (and should) be improved. I don't want to watch a sport where I have a good chance of seeing one of the driver's killed. I love watching most forms of motor-sport but I hate the idea that the drivers may be killed or injured, at the end of the day for my entertainment. -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

Thats a poor attitude to take, you make it sound as if he didn't care if he got killed.

(message now crossposted to r.a.s. , r.a.s.i, and r.a.s.f1) ---- "You put your hindsight glasses on and proclaimed instant expertise on the subject" ---- That pretty much hits the nail on the head. We can all discuss what <should> or <could> have been done to prevent this and other tragedies AFTER the fact.... but it is not OUR responsibility to design the courses and safety features of each. When a track is being designed is the time to consider the possible accident scenarios, and design the safety features accordingly. If that wall had been designed differently (and safely), we would not be donning our "hindsight glasses" today. Track designers should be the "expert" on the subject, and it astounds me how they could not have foreseen a possible crash with this (unprotected) wall. I will admit to downloading ESPN's video of the crash -- not because I am morbid, but because I want to know why the crash ended the way it did. There was some discussion about the actual angle of the wall that Greg hit in relation to the track... Upon watching the replay, you can clearly see that the wall is parallel to the track for the most part, except the last 30-50 metres or so, where it curves around to the right - to a 45o to the track. Unfortunately, any car that would be likely to lose control in that turn would come off the track, and impact that section of the wall HEAD-ON. As was proven twice yesterday, this is exactly what happened. Hearne should consider himself lucky that his car twisted sideways upon hitting the escape road, otherwise he too would have hit the wall HEAD-ON. I wonder how many other times in Fontana's history cars have gone off in the same spot? More importantly, how many of these cars went airborne, or were twisted around after contacting the escape road? Perhaps this weekend was the instance, but I have a hunch it was not. Others may have been lucky(Hearn was just 8 laps earlier), but unfortunately Greg was not....... He will be missed; as Senna's (& Ratzenberger's) deaths brought about new attention to safety in F1, hopefully some good will come as a result of Greg's untimely loss. R. Hashana

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> >How many young drivers have to loose their lives, before americans > >learn that you put tires or waterbarriers in front of walls? > >I don't wanna flame the "american" way, but hey who has the most > >dangerous tracks in the world? > I may be a stupid American, but at least I know the difference between lose > and loose.

Man, do you really have that little self confidence that you need that silly patriotism? Uh, he called SOMETHING Americans do stupid, he means us all!!! How silly... l8er ronny -- The box said "Windows 95 or better", so I installed LINUX! |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

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> > How many young drivers have to loose their lives, before americans > > learn that you put tires or waterbarriers in front of walls? > > Its absolutely absurd that the inside walls don't have any > > impactreducing material... > Save your self-righteous bull. Half the safety measures now in F1 were > first instituted by CART. Besides, maybe we stupid Americans don't want > to turn CART into the same trolley race that F1 has become.

Hmm, guess you're close to burst to pieces as somebody hurt your patriotic feelings? Dare he debate OUR safety measures. That's blasphemie! Get a grip... This is much sicker than what he wrote. l8er ronny -- The box said "Windows 95 or better", so I installed LINUX! |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

<snip> . . . which is a helluvalot better than no sight at all. But-- Just because you may not have been privy to any previous pertinent discussions (not necessarily here in this group) regarding needed track or other series safety improvements doesn't mean that they haven't occurred. The sad truth is that it takes a tragedy, or sometimes a series of tragedies like this to get most people to rinse the crud out of their eyes and admit that theres even a problem to be fixed. Jerry Morelock

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>> to and including death. Deal with it! He knew what he was doing when >> he climbed into the car and I hardly think he could have made it as >> far as he did without having a few serious carreer considering >> accidents along the way. That said, he knew the risks, he died doing >> what he wanted to be doing, and everything leadin up to and including >> the crash was prepared to the best of everyone's given ability. You >> can't have it both ways you know. >Thats a poor attitude to take, you make it sound as if he didn't care if he >got killed.

There is a big difference between knowing the risks and loving the sport and not caring about whether or not you are going to die. Sky diving is inheriently risky in that a failed chute will kill you but that doesn't mean you don't care about dying. Playing Russian Roulette would tell me you don't care about dying. BIG difference. ____________________ Try not to let your mind wander. It is too small to be out by itself!

>(message now crossposted to r.a.s. , r.a.s.i, and r.a.s.f1) >the wall is parallel to the track for the most part, except the last 30-50 >metres or so, where it curves around to the right - to a 45o to the track. As someone else has posted, the wall is nowhere close to 45 degrees to the track. The very high power telephoto lens makes lateral distance changes seem much more abrupt than they really are. It was nowhere near head-on, as the remaining forward speed after the impact shows. Jumping to quick conclusions based on a single camera shot is not the way to determine what would have been safer. -- Electrical and Computer Engineering Oklahoma State University

>: For crying out loud these machines are designed to be as safe as >: reasonably possible and have proven that they are time and time again. > What is "reasonably possible" is surely a matter of opinion. I think >that it is easily possible that F1 and CART cars could both be made much >safer without any ill effects to the "sport". Okay, how much safer do you think they can make it? If it ever gets to the point of which there is no risk then you can bet it will be as boring as watching Nascar lapping in single file. What next? Airbags? Car-covering rollbars? Ejection seats? Make the entire track out of Nerf materials? Armco by ***maid? Let's see, the odds of hitting the barrier on your head at that angle is??? How many races do they hold each year and how many since the track has been started? If every driver has the same perception that a particular track has a safety problem then they need to band together and say something about it AS WELL as how to fix the problem. If they don't then they are squarely at fault. No one holds a gun to their head to get in and drive the cars and no matter how much pressure someone from my marketting team wants to give me I'm not about to put a gun to my head and bet on one of the empty cylinders coming up. Your point about motorsports past is a very valid one. Perhaps in a few years the engineers will have some miracle system to enhance driver safety but there are limits as to what is practical. I can also agree with you here. I'm not interested in watching people die. If I wanted to see that I'd simply go downtown on a few particular nights of the year with camcorders and popcorn. It happens plenty in these parts. I don't mind watching the odd shunts here and there but I do NOT like seeing them get injured or killed. ____________________ Try not to let your mind wander. It is too small to be out by itself!

Many people have objected to every call for increased safety in motor-racing history, starting back with the people who felt that helmets and seat-belts destroyed the macho "atmosphere" of the sport. Perhaps their opinions would be different were they personally at risk .... Fortunately theirs appears to be a minority opinion, or we'd be back in the bad old days when a single racing class might see a death or serious injury almost every race. Sky

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> : For crying out loud these machines are designed to be as safe as > : reasonably possible and have proven that they are time and time again. > What is "reasonably possible" is surely a matter of opinion. I think > that it is easily possible that F1 and CART cars could both be made much > safer without any ill effects to the "sport". > : Freak accidents do occur and they can have tragic results leading up > : to and including death. > When you're getting two a year can you really say they're > "freak" accidents. To me that indicates an unacceptable level > of danger for the drivers. > : Deal with it! He knew what he was doing when > : he climbed into the car and I hardly think he could have made it as > : far as he did without having a few serious carreer considering > : accidents along the way. That said, he knew the risks, he died doing > : what he wanted to be doing, and everything leadin up to and including > : the crash was prepared to the best of everyone's given ability. > I'm sorry, but I disagree with you here. There are circuits that > all drivers dislike and consider unsafe. They may "know what they're > doing" but I bet also that most drivers would prefer to know that it > was a bit safer. You could make the same "own free choice" and "know > what they're doing" argument at any period of motor sport and it would > have been equally spurious. Safety can (and should) be improved. I > don't want to watch a sport where I have a good chance of seeing one > of the driver's killed. I love watching most forms of motor-sport but > I hate the idea that the drivers may be killed or injured, at the > end of the day for my entertainment. > -- > Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving > Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group > Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York > www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

After reading your over-the-top flame, I understand why so many people (including sim-makers) avoid r.a.s as an eternal melee of vitriol for it's own sake. You know, it is possible to disagree with people while maintaining a modicum of civility, which usually gets your ideas taken a lot more seriously (or at least not skipped after the first paragraph). Chris

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> No, what pissed me off is people like you (politicians are famous for > this crap) are always so wise after the fact -- armed with 20/20 > hindsight.. You shake your head gravely and act like the rest of us are > such morons for not catching this earlier. Well I didn't see your post > on Friday or earlier in the week. I read it yesterday, and I haven't > seen you campaigning for waterbarriers on ovals before yesterday. Why > yesterday? You're damned right. You put your hindsight glasses on and > proclaimed instant expertise on the subject. > You jumped on a tragedy and inflicted your condescending drivel on the > rest of us as if we haven't a clue how to go about tying our own shoes > never mind looking at the incident rationally to work to keep it from > happening again. Your boorish "When will you Americans ever learn" > approach certainly didn't help, but your overall approach was like > walking into a funeral and criticizing the family for buying the car in > which the kid killed himself. > Now is the time to start campaigning for CART to start racing in padded > tubes with closed circuit TV so the spectators can watch. That will not > only protect the drivers from crashing into walls, but protect the > spectators as well. > We can start working on wrap-around crash cages so that the chance of > anyone getting hurt by car-to-car collisions within the tubes is > reduced. Fire can be eliminated by piping high pressure foam and inert > gasses into the tube at the first sign of smoke, and the drivers can be > suspended in high-tech padding inside their cars with room left for foot > and arm movement. All other controls can be taken care of by telemetry > from the pits as a driver requests it based on the information displayed > on his helmet HUD. Racing in tubes will also eliminate sun glare. > The most dangerous time in a race is during high-speed passing, so why I > don't understand why the rules of engagement aren't changed. Perhaps > when Michael wants to pass Paul, Mike calls the officials on his helmet > radio and asks for permission to pass Paul. The official can roll a die > and, based on a chart, can decide whether or not Mike can pass Paul. If > so, then Paul must allow the pass in the safest manner possible while > still providing a show for the fans. > Get the point yet? > > On Mon, 01 Nov 1999 05:29:39 GMT, "Kevin Anderson" > > >You guys will always find something to fight about > > I don't think anyone ( well 98% ) disagrees with the fact that we > > could do with more safety - what pissed people of was my use of > > "americans" > > -- > > Cheers > > RP > > E-mail: rp at post1 dot com > -- > Bob Curtin > Worcester Area Strategy & Tactics Exchange > http://www.tiac.net/users/ten10ths/ > "If God had intended men to join the Army he would have given us green, > baggy skin"

You have a good point. But people look toward racing as being "bad" and all, but why don't we ban *** and smoking and guns and everything in the world that is dangerous? People really need to look at the big picture. The accident was a freak accident. Some things might have been able to prevent it such as gravel traps or a "less prone to flipping" substance put in the infield but slowing the cars down to 200MPH wouldn't have helped in the same situation and tires wouldn't have helped either. Just some things happen in rare incidents and though some can be prevented, others just happen. JB

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> No, what pissed me off is people like you (politicians are famous for > this crap) are always so wise after the fact -- armed with 20/20 > hindsight.. You shake your head gravely and act like the rest of us are > such morons for not catching this earlier. Well I didn't see your post > on Friday or earlier in the week. I read it yesterday, and I haven't > seen you campaigning for waterbarriers on ovals before yesterday. Why > yesterday? You're damned right. You put your hindsight glasses on and > proclaimed instant expertise on the subject. > You jumped on a tragedy and inflicted your condescending drivel on the > rest of us as if we haven't a clue how to go about tying our own shoes > never mind looking at the incident rationally to work to keep it from > happening again. Your boorish "When will you Americans ever learn" > approach certainly didn't help, but your overall approach was like > walking into a funeral and criticizing the family for buying the car in > which the kid killed himself. > Now is the time to start campaigning for CART to start racing in padded > tubes with closed circuit TV so the spectators can watch. That will not > only protect the drivers from crashing into walls, but protect the > spectators as well. > We can start working on wrap-around crash cages so that the chance of > anyone getting hurt by car-to-car collisions within the tubes is > reduced. Fire can be eliminated by piping high pressure foam and inert > gasses into the tube at the first sign of smoke, and the drivers can be > suspended in high-tech padding inside their cars with room left for foot > and arm movement. All other controls can be taken care of by telemetry > from the pits as a driver requests it based on the information displayed > on his helmet HUD. Racing in tubes will also eliminate sun glare. > The most dangerous time in a race is during high-speed passing, so why I > don't understand why the rules of engagement aren't changed. Perhaps > when Michael wants to pass Paul, Mike calls the officials on his helmet > radio and asks for permission to pass Paul. The official can roll a die > and, based on a chart, can decide whether or not Mike can pass Paul. If > so, then Paul must allow the pass in the safest manner possible while > still providing a show for the fans. > Get the point yet? > > On Mon, 01 Nov 1999 05:29:39 GMT, "Kevin Anderson" > > >You guys will always find something to fight about > > I don't think anyone ( well 98% ) disagrees with the fact that we > > could do with more safety - what pissed people of was my use of > > "americans" > > -- > > Cheers > > RP > > E-mail: rp at post1 dot com > -- > Bob Curtin > Worcester Area Strategy & Tactics Exchange > http://www.tiac.net/users/ten10ths/ > "If God had intended men to join the Army he would have given us green, > baggy skin"

Not really he wieghed the risk to the satifaction derived from it and decided it was worth the risk. Each and everyone of us do that everyday. Sometimes the risk is not as great, but we do the exact same thing. I am not saying that the safety should not be looked at and in this day and age it should get better and better every day. Dave

Dude, you are in the wrong sport if you feel racing has unacceptable risks. If it didn't then everyone would be doing it. Maybe we should ban driving cars on the road because more than 2 deaths occur each year due to driving. Or ban airplanes. Too much risk. We can't go around saying everything is bad. There would be no fun in life. We would turn into that planet from A Wrinkle in Time (whoa that takes me back). JB

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> : For crying out loud these machines are designed to be as safe as > : reasonably possible and have proven that they are time and time again. > What is "reasonably possible" is surely a matter of opinion. I think > that it is easily possible that F1 and CART cars could both be made much > safer without any ill effects to the "sport". > : Freak accidents do occur and they can have tragic results leading up > : to and including death. > When you're getting two a year can you really say they're > "freak" accidents. To me that indicates an unacceptable level > of danger for the drivers. > : Deal with it! He knew what he was doing when > : he climbed into the car and I hardly think he could have made it as > : far as he did without having a few serious carreer considering > : accidents along the way. That said, he knew the risks, he died doing > : what he wanted to be doing, and everything leadin up to and including > : the crash was prepared to the best of everyone's given ability. > I'm sorry, but I disagree with you here. There are circuits that > all drivers dislike and consider unsafe. They may "know what they're > doing" but I bet also that most drivers would prefer to know that it > was a bit safer. You could make the same "own free choice" and "know > what they're doing" argument at any period of motor sport and it would > have been equally spurious. Safety can (and should) be improved. I > don't want to watch a sport where I have a good chance of seeing one > of the driver's killed. I love watching most forms of motor-sport but > I hate the idea that the drivers may be killed or injured, at the > end of the day for my entertainment. > -- > Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving > Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group > Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York > www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

Ronnie, I will agree that any sort of energy absorbing device is preferable to nothing, I am just stating that, as an eyewitness to the incident, and after many years working races, IMO, Greg didn't have a chance once the car began to turn over. Rip out the friggin' grass, smooth and pave over the infield and combine that with an energy absorbing barrier. I may not have saved Greg, but it may help someone else in the future. I'm through with ovals, I hope CART never returns to Indy or any other superspeedway. I know I won't. -- don [|]-(_)-[|] > On Sun, 31 Oct 1999 16:46:07 -0800, "don hodgdon" > >The way the car hit, water barrels or tire walls > >wouldn't have made any difference. > Can we agree on the fact that the impact when hittin a tirewall as not > as *** as when hitting a clean wall. > In adition to that, we could start talking about why we have all that > grass all over the place, asphalt or even a graveltrap would be much > better en stoping the cars, and asphalt wouldn't flip the cars over... > -- > Cheers > RP > E-mail: rp at post1 dot com

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>>(message now crossposted to r.a.s. , r.a.s.i, and r.a.s.f1) >>the wall is parallel to the track for the most part, except the last 30-50 >>metres or so, where it curves around to the right - to a 45o to the track. >As someone else has posted, the wall is nowhere close to 45 degrees to >the track. The very high power telephoto lens makes lateral distance >changes seem much more abrupt than they really are. >>Unfortunately, any car that would be likely to lose control in that turn >>would come off the track, and impact that section of the wall HEAD-ON. As >It was nowhere near head-on, as the remaining forward speed after the >impact shows. Jumping to quick conclusions based on a single camera shot >is not the way to determine what would have been safer.

What forward speed after the impact? I have it on tape and at no point did the car proceed further than the wall after the initial impact. While the path of the car may have not been exactly 90 degrees to the wall, it was close to it. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gary Sanford Email here only:

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>>>(message now crossposted to r.a.s. , r.a.s.i, and r.a.s.f1) >>>the wall is parallel to the track for the most part, except the last 30-50 >>>metres or so, where it curves around to the right - to a 45o to the track. >>As someone else has posted, the wall is nowhere close to 45 degrees to >>the track. The very high power telephoto lens makes lateral distance >>changes seem much more abrupt than they really are. >>>Unfortunately, any car that would be likely to lose control in that turn >>>would come off the track, and impact that section of the wall HEAD-ON. As >>It was nowhere near head-on, as the remaining forward speed after the >>impact shows. Jumping to quick conclusions based on a single camera shot >>is not the way to determine what would have been safer. >What forward speed after the impact? I have it on tape and at no point >did the car proceed further than the wall after the initial impact.

The forward speed that caused it to roll and then slide toward camera for nearly five seconds after the impact. You can't judge how far it moved down the wall from a highly compressed telephoto shot like that. Watch your tape again (I just did) and remember that top to bottom on your screen is a far greater distance than left to right on the screen, and note how long it continues to move toward the camera. No, it wasn't. Don't try to judge things from a first impression on a video taken from a very deceiving angle. -- Electrical and Computer Engineering Oklahoma State University

snip.... I'm not judging it from the accident footage. I'm looking at the overhead blimp shot that show Hearn's and Moore's paths into the wall. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gary Sanford Email here only:

>I'm not judging it from the accident footage. I'm looking at the >overhead blimp shot that show Hearn's and Moore's paths into >the wall. Please see my post in the "Bottom line, CART safety" thread. I couldn't find a blimp shot that showed the paths into the wall in the tape of the broadcast, only the shot from turn two that showed the skid marks on the track that were also highly distorted by telephoto compression. If better blimp view is available please let me know where to get it. -- Electrical and Computer Engineering Oklahoma State University

> I've never said that Americans are stupid. But you have to > agree with me on the fact that you do have some of the > most dangerous tracks in use today. Actually our tracks pale in comparison to the Isle of Man 'track' with respect to dangerous venues for motorsport. - George (who hopes to turn laps in anger at the TT)

Cars typically hit the outside wall more often than the inside wall. Racer X Veteran Sim Racer Victory Lane- http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/1423/

This From Mario Andretti on CNN.com Begin Mario Andretti, a retired open-wheel star, began racing in a more perilous era. "I buried a lot of my friends in Formula One," he said. "Back then, the cars were just plain dangerous. "Now, drivers expect to have long careers and retire with everything intact," added Andretti, whose two sons followed him into racing. "Now, we have fuel cells and crushable sidepods and improved helmets and lots of other things for the safety of the drivers. "But the human body was never meant to be smashed into walls at high speed. With everything that's being done to protect them, drivers are still only human and vulnerable." END It just shows that no matter how far auto racing has come it still is a damn dangerous sport, and that is why (deep down) we watch it BTWY: I will ask in this group too, why no canopies? it seems like a hell of a logical safety factor (look at F1 boats after they put them in)

>>Man, do you really have that little self confidence that you need that silly >patriotism? Uh, he called SOMETHING Americans do stupid, he means us all!!! >How silly... No, I basically just wanted to pick on the fact that he, like an astounding number of other people, doesn't know the difference between lose and loose. I couldn't care less what he (or anyone else) thinks of America or Americans. I don't have a self confidence problem, I'm just an ***. daxe -----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==---------- http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World! ------== Over 73,000 Newsgroups - Including Dedicated Binaries Servers ==-----

What do you do Don? -- Oliver Nikolic DP-MAX Computers http://www.dp-max.co.yu/ BeoRocket Racing Team (retired) http://www.beorocket.co.yu/

> BTWY: I will ask in this group too, why no canopies? it seems like a > hell of a logical safety factor (look at F1 boats after they put them > in) My point has been, and continues to be, why not leave racing safety up to those who know what they're doing. It's so easy for us to second guess these guys with our asses planted in an easy chair and our hindsight glasses on. Ronnie Pedersen and others are of the opinion that it's obvious what needs to be done and have told us so in no uncertain terms. One only has to look at the tape a few times and one is an expert, right? Well, I remain unconvinced that any of us know our ass from our elbows when we start spouting our knee-jerk reactions to a horrible racing accident such as happened on Sunday. I can think of a ton of possible problems you'd have with a canopy, including heat retention, smoke inhilation during a fire, sun glare off an increasingly oil-fouled canopy, seconds lost opening up the canopy in an emergency exit, etc. But I'm not an expert and I don't delude myself into thinking that I have the answers to racing safety. I think a canopy is a logical safety factor when you don't know all of the facts. But again, I'm no expert. -- Bob Curtin Worcester Area Strategy & Tactics Exchange http://www.tiac.net/users/ten10ths/ "If God had intended men to join the Army he would have given us green, baggy skin"

Very true, unfortunatly... On Mon, 1 Nov 1999 07:15:50 -0500, "Dave St.Onge"

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>Wasn't Fernandez also the one who lost the front wheel which killed the >three spectators last year?? If he was, that twist is even crueler..... >Dave >>From what i saw on the replay, there was no way any sort of "wall >>padding" would've helped. for a little touch of sad irony >>does anyone remeber who the winner of the race that Jeff Krosnoff >>died in?? Adrian Fernadez.... cruel twist... >>also, I was at the track saturday.. and it was windy as hell, not sure >>about sunday though.. if so, could that have played a part in him >>losing it? >>We will all miss Greg Moore >>Blaine Bett >>On 1 Nov 1999 01:56:55 GMT, "DAVID " >>>The cars already have a bunch of padding to keep the driver from moving >>>about. For years Cart has had Ford doing studies on accidents. >>>Unfortunately you cannot always controls what happens in an accident and >>>someone pays for it. Jeff Kronsoff did and now Greg Moore. I feel for >>>both of their families, but also I understand Greg Moore got into that car >>>and ran the race today, knowing of the hazards that lay out there for him. >>>David Robinson. >>>> I agree, maybe its the cars that need to be improved, airbags or >>>something

Oli, I'm a photographer in the So Cal area...email me if you'd like to see some of my old Riverside stuff. -- don [|]-(_)-[|] > What do you do Don? > -- > Oliver Nikolic > DP-MAX Computers > http://www.dp-max.co.yu/ > BeoRocket Racing Team (retired) > http://www.beorocket.co.yu/

Whilst the death of Greig Moore, and Gonzalo Rodriguez are both sad and tradgic, they knew that what they were doing was dangerous. One need only to look at Formula One to see that Tire walls in the wrong place can cause as much damage as the may prevent. Eddie Irvines qualifying crash going into the Suzuka hairpin was worryingly ***. If it had been wall all the way, he'd have just ground his way to a halt. Michael Schumacher hit the tire wall outside of Stow corner at a meer 70 mph, yet broke his leg. Tire walls on the inside of Ovals will throw the car into a horrendous spin (imagine Irivines crash, twice, three times as fast) However, a wall will only give a glancing blow. What is worrying is that people still assume that a single seater is better off going thru gravel, not tarmac. Tarmac would have brought Schumacher to a virtual standstill before he hit the tyres, it would have stopped Greig Moore from Rolling. It would not have helped Gonzo. Motor racing is dangerous. That is why we enjoy driving great games such as GPL. They allow us a taste of that danger, with the added adantage of being able to walk away after driving into the outside wall of the Masta Kink at 170 MPH in a 415 bhp Cigar on wheels. The driver know and respect the danger. They enjoy it. Unfortunately, from time to time, they are taken from us. It's a sad fact. No one conciously attempts to make tracks dangerous. Calling the Americans stupid was stupidity in its self. I am a european embarrased by such talk. However, there are issues to be raised in all forms of motor sport. Perhaps things people havn't thought of yet...constant efforts are being made by ALL concerned to improve safety across the board...but it still remains VERY VERY dangerous. Doug

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> Oli, I'm a photographer in the So Cal area...email me if you'd like to see > some of my old Riverside stuff. > -- > don > [|]-(_)-[|] > > What do you do Don? > > -- > > Oliver Nikolic > > DP-MAX Computers > > http://www.dp-max.co.yu/ > > BeoRocket Racing Team (retired) > > http://www.beorocket.co.yu/

: Whilst the death of Greig Moore, and Gonzalo Rodriguez are both sad and : tradgic, they knew that what they were doing was dangerous. : One need only to look at Formula One to see that Tire walls in the wrong : place can cause as much damage as the may prevent. : Eddie Irvines qualifying crash going into the Suzuka hairpin was : worryingly ***. If it had been wall all the way, he'd have just : ground his way to a halt. : Michael Schumacher hit the tire wall outside of Stow corner at a meer 70 : mph, yet broke his leg. Tire walls on the inside of Ovals will throw : the car into a horrendous spin (imagine Irivines crash, twice, three : times as fast) However, a wall will only give a glancing blow. Panis at Montreal in 1997 is a good example of the damage tires can do. Stephen

snip > What is worrying is that people still assume that a single seater is > better off going thru gravel, not tarmac. Tarmac would have brought > Schumacher to a virtual standstill before he hit the tyres, it would > have stopped Greig Moore from Rolling. It would not have helped Gonzo. Of course, assuming your car still has working brakes...or you still have enough control of the car to use the brakes... l8er ronny -- "I heard if you play the NT-4.0-CD backwards, you get a satanic message." "That's nothing, if you play it forward, it installs NT-4.0"

He broke his legs not the neck... -- Oliver Nikolic DP-MAX Computers http://www.dp-max.co.yu/ BeoRocket Racing Team (retired) http://www.beorocket.co.yu/ > : Whilst the death of Greig Moore, and Gonzalo Rodriguez are both sad and > : tradgic, they knew that what they were doing was dangerous. > : One need only to look at Formula One to see that Tire walls in the wrong > : place can cause as much damage as the may prevent. > : Eddie Irvines qualifying crash going into the Suzuka hairpin was > : worryingly ***. If it had been wall all the way, he'd have just > : ground his way to a halt. > : Michael Schumacher hit the tire wall outside of Stow corner at a meer 70 > : mph, yet broke his leg. Tire walls on the inside of Ovals will throw > : the car into a horrendous spin (imagine Irivines crash, twice, three > : times as fast) However, a wall will only give a glancing blow. > Panis at Montreal in 1997 is a good example of the damage tires can do. > Stephen

: On 4 Nov 1999 07:29:27 GMT, :>: Michael Schumacher hit the tire wall outside of Stow corner at a meer 70 :>: mph, yet broke his leg. :> :>Panis at Montreal in 1997 is a good example of the damage tires can do. : But Panis (and Schumacher) are still alive.. True. don't take my point out of context. I fully support tire walls, especially when they have a protective mesh covering them. I was only adding another example of the (rare) case where tires can worsen the outcome. As I remember it, Panis hit the wall at a shallow angle, the nose stuck in the tires and was sheared off. His Prost was a sorry sight after the incident. But I also remember several cases where Indycars at Detroit went spearing through a few layers of tires at the end of the straight with very little damage, and no injury. Al Unser even continued racing once after being pulled back out of his rather deep dive into the ***. Overall I think tires are great, until we come up with some nice constant density foam barriers or god knows what to absorb energy in a uniform fashion. Big magnets?? :) Stephen

Yes, but the NASCAR driver (whose name escapes me at the moment) who died at the Glen a few years ago when a tire came through his window and broke his neck is not.

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> On 4 Nov 1999 07:29:27 GMT, > >: Michael Schumacher hit the tire wall outside of Stow corner at a meer 70 > >: mph, yet broke his leg. > >Panis at Montreal in 1997 is a good example of the damage tires can do. > But Panis (and Schumacher) are still alive.. > -- > * rrevved at mindspring dot com > * http://www.cabal.net

-- Bob Curtin Worcester Area Strategy & Tactics Exchange http://www.tiac.net/users/ten10ths/ "If God had intended men to join the Army he would have given us green, baggy skin"

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> snip > > What is worrying is that people still assume that a single seater is > > better off going thru gravel, not tarmac. Tarmac would have brought > > Schumacher to a virtual standstill before he hit the tyres, it would > > have stopped Greig Moore from Rolling. It would not have helped Gonzo. > Of course, assuming your car still has working brakes...or you still > have > enough control of the car to use the brakes...

Or it's not wet in which case you'll just aquaplane with little deceleration. A friend had a great idea after Schupermans crash. Tarmac covered in superglue! :) Kev

And the front of the chassis was severely damaged to boot. Are you suggesting that by hitting a completely non-deformable concrete wall and applying the same forces, that the car would not have been more seriously damaged and thay the man himself would have been less likely to have been killed? Even without brakes as was the claimed cause of the accident? Come to that, how do you see tarmac effectively slowing a single seater minus several wheels as is often the case? I tend to agree here, grass on the inside of an oval is just stupidity IMO. The bottom line is that there is NO one single solution that will work in every given situation. The best we can hope for is to keep learning from tragic occurences and apply the accrued knowledge in a common sense manner in an endeavour to minimise the risks further. It will always be a percentage game though and all we can do is try to stack the deck further in favour of the drivers. There is only one thing that we can all rest assured about. As long as men race speed machines, men will die in them. No amount of technology or great thinking will ever result in a zero risk sport. The simple fact remains that the human body and explosively high G forces are strange bedfellows. MS