NASCAR Legends AI bug

Thats not a bug! Watch some old NASCAR tapes from Riverside and you will see that they spent more time in the dirt than they did on the asphalt, especially in the esses and turn 6, and if you want to be fast at Riverside you better master cutting the corner at 6 because there is a lot of time to be made there. Scott Sanford Papyrus

Still it is not a bug since it is something we did on purpose. We had 4 different tapes of races at Riverside and all of them show cars going off the track lap after lap at certian points on the track so we decided to model the AI that way. Scott Sanford Papyrus > Yes it is a bug. > I grew up in So. Calif. and saw plenty of races, including NASCAR, at > Riverside. I also raced with the SCCA there many times. Yes the Stock Car > guys used the dirt sometimes, but not like the AI in NL. Two inside wheels > off the pavement (before the dragons teeth were put in) was common, but not

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> all four wheels every lap. > >Thats not a bug! Watch some old NASCAR tapes from Riverside and you will > >see that they spent more time in the dirt than they did on the asphalt, > >especially in the esses and turn 6, and if you want to be fast at

Riverside > >you better master cutting the corner at 6 because there is a lot of time to

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> >be made there. > >Scott Sanford > >Papyrus > >> Found an AI bug at Riverside Turn Six. The AI is going all the way over > to > >> the fences on both the left going in, and the right at the apex as the > >> track. This is about 30 ft into the dirt on both sides! This happens

with > >> every car on every lap regardles of traffic. Looks like Papy got the way > >> points wrong. Hope they fix this soon - the only reason I bought this was > >> for Riverside!

And people wonder why no one from Papy ever posts here. I really have no desire to argue this with you, I told you what we did and why we did it and instead of just saying I was there and that is not what I saw I get all of this. I am glad that you think the track model is good, we spent a lot of time with very little info. to get this track right even though no one working on the project had ever been to the track. BTW, 1970 was the first year that NASCAR ever ran slicks and that was only at Talladega. Scott Sanford Papyrus

Found an AI bug at Riverside Turn Six. The AI is going all the way over to the fences on both the left going in, and the right at the apex as the track. This is about 30 ft into the dirt on both sides! This happens with every car on every lap regardles of traffic. Looks like Papy got the way points wrong. Hope they fix this soon - the only reason I bought this was for Riverside!

Thanks for posting this, the only reason I was going to buy NL was for Riverside, so now I have an excuse to keep my money. Douglas Sharpe wrote

Yes it is a bug. I grew up in So. Calif. and saw plenty of races, including NASCAR, at Riverside. I also raced with the SCCA there many times. Yes the Stock Car guys used the dirt sometimes, but not like the AI in NL. Two inside wheels off the pavement (before the dragons teeth were put in) was common, but not all four wheels every lap.

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>Thats not a bug! Watch some old NASCAR tapes from Riverside and you will >see that they spent more time in the dirt than they did on the asphalt, >especially in the esses and turn 6, and if you want to be fast at Riverside >you better master cutting the corner at 6 because there is a lot of time to >be made there. >Scott Sanford >Papyrus >> Found an AI bug at Riverside Turn Six. The AI is going all the way over

to >> the fences on both the left going in, and the right at the apex as the >> track. This is about 30 ft into the dirt on both sides! This happens with >> every car on every lap regardles of traffic. Looks like Papy got the way >> points wrong. Hope they fix this soon - the only reason I bought this was >> for Riverside!

Your "facts" are wrong then. Even the stock cars didn't apex turn six at the inside fence every lap. That's something like THIRTY FEET off the pavement! Yes they did go "off road" to pass sometimes, but staying on the asphalt when your car has slicks is much faster than turning in the dirt. In other places on the track, the esses for instance, your modeling is very good, but turn six is all wrong. You say you had four videos - well I watched, in person, a lot of races from all over the track and saw a lot more laps than you did. I can attest that your line was NOT Dan Gurney's line, and he was the master of Riverside. Also as a driver - if I had tried your line I would have been black flagged for going off course. But since this is your game... You sound like you're going to do as you please regardless so I won't bother anymore.

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>Still it is not a bug since it is something we did on purpose. We had 4 >different tapes of races at Riverside and all of them show cars going off >the track lap after lap at certian points on the track so we decided to >model the AI that way. >Scott Sanford >Papyrus >> Yes it is a bug. >> I grew up in So. Calif. and saw plenty of races, including NASCAR, at >> Riverside. I also raced with the SCCA there many times. Yes the Stock Car >> guys used the dirt sometimes, but not like the AI in NL. Two inside

wheels

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>> off the pavement (before the dragons teeth were put in) was common, but >not >> all four wheels every lap. >> >Thats not a bug! Watch some old NASCAR tapes from Riverside and you

will

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>> >see that they spent more time in the dirt than they did on the asphalt, >> >especially in the esses and turn 6, and if you want to be fast at >Riverside >> >you better master cutting the corner at 6 because there is a lot of time >to >> >be made there. >> >Scott Sanford >> >Papyrus >> >> Found an AI bug at Riverside Turn Six. The AI is going all the way

over

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>> to >> >> the fences on both the left going in, and the right at the apex as the >> >> track. This is about 30 ft into the dirt on both sides! This happens >with >> >> every car on every lap regardles of traffic. Looks like Papy got the >way >> >> points wrong. Hope they fix this soon - the only reason I bought this >was >> >> for Riverside!

That's a lame excuse. Your modeling for most of the track, the esses for instance, is good. The amount of "off road" cornering and passing is about right. But noway, and I was there in person to see it, did they apex turn six at the inside fence every lap. Tha't over 30 FEET off the pavement, with an off camber slope from the fence to the asphalt. And even though they ran on bias ply tires they were slicks, which everybody knows have more bite on pavement than dirt. I can attest to the fact that Dan Gurney didn't use your line, and he was the master of Riverside.

> > Just wondering then...in those tapes, did the cars behind an accident stop > > in the middle of the track and spin back n fourth in a circle :) Just > > wondering cuz that happens in N3 as well and the only time I see real > Nascar > > drivers spin like that is when that Black # 3 is around :) > Geeze, was that necessary? Well if this was their first game that did this then no maybe not, but it is a problem that was ignored thru many releases of Nascar Racing so having slapped down my cash for the game I am intitled to point out the good the bad and the ugly...... Godbless America!! Norm -----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==---------- http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World! ------== Over 73,000 Newsgroups - Including Dedicated Binaries Servers ==-----

I don't know, this actually made me laugh.<G> But I will pass along this warning to him, once we start posting car files Norm better watch out for a red #3 in his mirror.<G> Scott Sanford Papyrus > > Just wondering then...in those tapes, did the cars behind an accident stop

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> > in the middle of the track and spin back n fourth in a circle :) Just > > wondering cuz that happens in N3 as well and the only time I see real > Nascar > > drivers spin like that is when that Black # 3 is around :) > Geeze, was that necessary? > 1001 Papyrus employees quitting r.a.s. on a wall.. 1002 Papyrus employees > quitting r.a.s. on a wall... > -- > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I never meant to come across like that, if I did I apoligize also. As far as the AI goes there are a few tools floating around on the net that will let you change the AI yourself. Scott Sanford Papyrus

I have watched many NASCAR races from the turn 6 grandstands at Riverside. The cars did not leave the track in turn 6. They would hook the inside right tire and use it to pivot the car for the exit. Would it be possible to see the videos you used to plot this AI path? What races (years) did you to use? I have seen "off roading" in the esses, but it was always a single lap incident, not an every lap occurence. Just interested in seeing how you came to this conclusion. buzard......owner of every Papyrus sim ever made. > Found an AI bug at Riverside Turn Six. The AI is going all the way over to > the fences on both the left going in, and the right at the apex as the > track. This is about 30 ft into the dirt on both sides! This happens with > every car on every lap regardles of traffic. Looks like Papy got the way > points wrong. Hope they fix this soon - the only reason I bought this was > for Riverside!

There is/was a utility to turn replays into an .LP file. Hopefully we can get the line changed. Sounds like the track it self was done well. buzard > Found an AI bug at Riverside Turn Six. The AI is going all the way over to > the fences on both the left going in, and the right at the apex as the > track. This is about 30 ft into the dirt on both sides! This happens with > every car on every lap regardles of traffic. Looks like Papy got the way > points wrong. Hope they fix this soon - the only reason I bought this was > for Riverside!

Just wondering then...in those tapes, did the cars behind an accident stop in the middle of the track and spin back n fourth in a circle :) Just wondering cuz that happens in N3 as well and the only time I see real Nascar drivers spin like that is when that Black # 3 is around :) Norm > And people wonder why no one from Papy ever posts here. I really have no > desire to argue this with you, I told you what we did and why we did it and > instead of just saying I was there and that is not what I saw I get all of > this. I am glad that you think the track model is good, we spent a lot of > time with very little info. to get this track right even though no one > working on the project had ever been to the track. BTW, 1970 was the first

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> year that NASCAR ever ran slicks and that was only at Talladega. > Scott Sanford > Papyrus > > That's a lame excuse. Your modeling for most of the track, the esses for > > instance, is good. The amount of "off road" cornering and passing is

about > > right. But noway, and I was there in person to see it, did they apex turn

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> > six at the inside fence every lap. Tha't over 30 FEET off the pavement, > with > > an off camber slope from the fence to the asphalt. And even though they > ran > > on bias ply tires they were slicks, which everybody knows have more bite > on > > pavement than dirt. I can attest to the fact that Dan Gurney didn't use > your > > line, and he was the master of Riverside.

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Well you can only blame yourselves, Papy. You were coming out with N3 w/gpl engine and then you ditched it at the last second, no wonder we are a little touchy and picky with this rehashed engine stuff. If you can't take a little criticism maybe your in the wrong business. Never did see a "Sorry" come out of Papyrus or Sierra for ditching the sim everyone was waiting for, for 3 years! Your just lucky you still have customers, but you are losing them quickly. Plus where is the support for Gpl? > And people wonder why no one from Papy ever posts here.

Geeze, was that necessary? 1001 Papyrus employees quitting r.a.s. on a wall.. 1002 Papyrus employees quitting r.a.s. on a wall... -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

> Thanks for posting this, the only reason I was going to buy NL was for > Riverside, so now I have an excuse to keep my money. There's one of these posts for every game I've ever seen. "Oh, this bug is making me keep my money." blah, blah.

Alan, Excuse me, but you act as if you're ENTITLED to these sims -- as if Papyrus OWES it to you to create just what little Alan Orton wants whether it'll make a buck for Papy or not. Let me clue you in to something. Papyrus Design Group doesn't owe you a damned thing, in spite of your little whiney hissy-fits. They're in business, sonny, and they'd damned well better make intelligent business decisions or in the long run you're not going to see an N4 or any other sim from for that matter. Maybe that wouldn't matter to you, but it does to me. I can remember pre-South Park days and if you think you've got it bad now, you should have tried looking for a good racing sim before Papyrus. Either you've got a very short memory or you haven't been with Papyrus since the beginning. N3 is as much of an improvement over N2 as N2 was over N1 -- more in fact, with the internet interface. That it's not up to your arbitrary and lofty standards is too damned bad. Papy is in business to make money, not to appease the whiners on this NG. The grousing that goes on on this NG is beyond belief sometimes. I'd like to know what sim Papy should apologize for, you know, the one we've been waiting for for three years -- the one they "ditched." Could that be the N3 that everyone wished was based on the GPL engine? Good trick, since GPL has only been out for less than two years and was something you had no clue existed or was in the works three years ago. With this NG, no matter what Papy does, they're screwed. They get dumped on by great hoardes of folk with hair-trigger mouths and the attention span of a rug-rat. I'm just glad for Papy's sake that the vast majority of their fans don't bother to tune in to this sometimes weepfest.

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> Well you can only blame yourselves, Papy. You were coming out with N3 > w/gpl engine and then you ditched it at the last second, no wonder we > are a little touchy and picky with this rehashed engine stuff. If you > can't take a little criticism maybe your in the wrong business. Never > did see a "Sorry" come out of Papyrus or Sierra for ditching the sim > everyone was waiting for, for 3 years! Your just lucky you still have > customers, but you are losing them quickly. Plus where is the support > for Gpl? > > And people wonder why no one from Papy ever posts here.

-- Bob Curtin Worcester Area Strategy & Tactics Exchange http://www.tiac.net/users/ten10ths/ "If God had intended men to join the Army he would have given us green, baggy skin"

Just keep this sort of aggressive approach going and know that the folks from Papy will not be willing to pay attention to ras at all. They sold 40K+ boxes of GPL - do you honestly think that the 100 or so active ras posters have much influence on sales? I think not. These folks will sell hundreds of thousands of N3 and NL boxes - arguments over realism will occur on ras - geez! If the interplay between beta testers and designers were half as inflammatory as what goes on here there would never be a sim released that was any better than Sega! Finally, they don't have to apologize to anyone for anything. Were it not for the EFFORTS that these guys make to produce a product that the business managers will approve for release, you would be stuck with MGPRS2 and Sega Daytona as the benchmarks for this technology. I think they can "take a little criticism", but there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to CONDEMN these folks and their company for what is "perceived" as personal slights. This forum is becoming nothing but a flamefest anymore.... so long....

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> Well you can only blame yourselves, Papy. You were coming out with N3 > w/gpl engine and then you ditched it at the last second, no wonder we > are a little touchy and picky with this rehashed engine stuff. If you > can't take a little criticism maybe your in the wrong business. Never > did see a "Sorry" come out of Papyrus or Sierra for ditching the sim > everyone was waiting for, for 3 years! Your just lucky you still have > customers, but you are losing them quickly. Plus where is the support > for Gpl? > > And people wonder why no one from Papy ever posts here.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Scott, Sorry if it seems I'm slamming you personally, that wasn't my intention. But - your replies to my original post and my first rebuttal, seemed to say I didn't know what I'm talking about. I had to defend my position. As for knowledge of the track, you could have asked some of your customers with experience at Riverside to play test for you. We would have been glad to help. And finally.... will you please look into changing the way points in turn six?

it was 30 years ago, I have to believe that video tape is more accurate then your memory. And I am sure that the line was changing through the years with tire development, again maybe you could be thinking of later years. no offense, you could be wright but you should try to find a copy of these tapes and see for yourself. ON VACATION only reply to group or email below. Kevin anderson

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>Scott, >Sorry if it seems I'm slamming you personally, that wasn't my intention. >But - your replies to my original post and my first rebuttal, seemed to say >I didn't know what I'm talking about. I had to defend my position. As for >knowledge of the track, you could have asked some of your customers with >experience at Riverside to play test for you. We would have been glad to >help. And finally.... will you please look into changing the way points in >turn six?

Yawn > Your "facts" are wrong then. Even the stock cars didn't apex turn six at the > inside fence every lap. That's something like THIRTY FEET off the pavement! > Yes they did go "off road" to pass sometimes, but staying on the asphalt > when your car has slicks is much faster than turning in the dirt. In other > places on the track, the esses for instance, your modeling is very good, but > turn six is all wrong. > You say you had four videos - well I watched, in person, a lot of races from > all over the track and saw a lot more laps than you did. I can attest that > your line was NOT Dan Gurney's line, and he was the master of Riverside. > Also as a driver - if I had tried your line I would have been black flagged

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> for going off course. > But since this is your game... You sound like you're going to do as you > please regardless so I won't bother anymore. > >Still it is not a bug since it is something we did on purpose. We had 4 > >different tapes of races at Riverside and all of them show cars going off > >the track lap after lap at certian points on the track so we decided to > >model the AI that way. > >Scott Sanford > >Papyrus > >> Yes it is a bug. > >> I grew up in So. Calif. and saw plenty of races, including NASCAR, at > >> Riverside. I also raced with the SCCA there many times. Yes the Stock

Car

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> >> guys used the dirt sometimes, but not like the AI in NL. Two inside > wheels > >> off the pavement (before the dragons teeth were put in) was common, but > >not > >> all four wheels every lap. > >> >Thats not a bug! Watch some old NASCAR tapes from Riverside and you > will > >> >see that they spent more time in the dirt than they did on the

asphalt, > >> >especially in the esses and turn 6, and if you want to be fast at > >Riverside > >> >you better master cutting the corner at 6 because there is a lot of time

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> >to > >> >be made there. > >> >Scott Sanford > >> >Papyrus > >> >> Found an AI bug at Riverside Turn Six. The AI is going all the way > over > >> to > >> >> the fences on both the left going in, and the right at the apex as

the > >> >> track. This is about 30 ft into the dirt on both sides! This happens > >with > >> >> every car on every lap regardles of traffic. Looks like Papy got the > >way > >> >> points wrong. Hope they fix this soon - the only reason I bought this > >was > >> >> for Riverside!

yawn. Take the game back, ok?

yawn

AMEN BOB! What would you be racing if it wasn't for Papyrus? Nascar Revolution? What a joke! Gary

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> Alan, > Excuse me, but you act as if you're ENTITLED to these sims -- as if > Papyrus OWES it to you to create just what little Alan Orton wants > whether it'll make a buck for Papy or not. Let me clue you in to > something. Papyrus Design Group doesn't owe you a damned thing, in spite > of your little whiney hissy-fits. They're in business, sonny, and they'd > damned well better make intelligent business decisions or in the long run > you're not going to see an N4 or any other sim from for that matter. > Maybe that wouldn't matter to you, but it does to me. I can remember > pre-South Park days and if you think you've got it bad now, you should > have tried looking for a good racing sim before Papyrus. > Either you've got a very short memory or you haven't been with Papyrus > since the beginning. N3 is as much of an improvement over N2 as N2 was > over N1 -- more in fact, with the internet interface. That it's not up > to your arbitrary and lofty standards is too damned bad. Papy is in > business to make money, not to appease the whiners on this NG. > The grousing that goes on on this NG is beyond belief sometimes. I'd > like to know what sim Papy should apologize for, you know, the one we've > been waiting for for three years -- the one they "ditched." Could that > be the N3 that everyone wished was based on the GPL engine? Good trick, > since GPL has only been out for less than two years and was something you > had no clue existed or was in the works three years ago. > With this NG, no matter what Papy does, they're screwed. They get dumped > on by great hoardes of folk with hair-trigger mouths and the attention > span of a rug-rat. I'm just glad for Papy's sake that the vast majority > of their fans don't bother to tune in to this sometimes weepfest. > > Well you can only blame yourselves, Papy. You were coming out with N3 > > w/gpl engine and then you ditched it at the last second, no wonder we > > are a little touchy and picky with this rehashed engine stuff. If you > > can't take a little criticism maybe your in the wrong business. Never > > did see a "Sorry" come out of Papyrus or Sierra for ditching the sim > > everyone was waiting for, for 3 years! Your just lucky you still have > > customers, but you are losing them quickly. Plus where is the support > > for Gpl? > > > And people wonder why no one from Papy ever posts here. > -- > Bob Curtin > Worcester Area Strategy & Tactics Exchange > http://www.tiac.net/users/ten10ths/ > "If God had intended men to join the Army he would have given us green, > baggy skin"

Only a handful are being as touchy and picky as you folks.Is N3 what I wanted after driving GPL? No. Is N3 or NL perfect considering what we got? No. Would I buy another Nascar or F1 racing sim from Papy? In half a ***in heartbeat. They did what they did for their own reasons. Nothing we do or say is gonna change what they've done in the past. Move on, and make constructive comments for them to base their next sim on. Right now, you sound like a bunch of goddamn kids throwing a tantrum.

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>Well you can only blame yourselves, Papy. You were coming out with N3 >w/gpl engine and then you ditched it at the last second, no wonder we >are a little touchy and picky with this rehashed engine stuff. If you >can't take a little criticism maybe your in the wrong business. Never >did see a "Sorry" come out of Papyrus or Sierra for ditching the sim >everyone was waiting for, for 3 years! Your just lucky you still have >customers, but you are losing them quickly. Plus where is the support >for Gpl? >> And people wonder why no one from Papy ever posts here.

-- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html Barbarian Diecast Collector (370+ cars and counting) http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html North American Stockcar Racing Online Competition http://www.paddedwall.org/nasroc1/nasroc1.html Super X Philes http://members.home.net/kap/superx/superx.html If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

> Alan, > Excuse me, but you act as if you're ENTITLED to these sims -- as if > Papyrus OWES it to you to create just what little Alan Orton wants > whether it'll make a buck for Papy or not. Let me clue you in to > something. Papyrus Design Group doesn't owe you a damned thing. NO I'm Not "ENTITLED" to anything your right, but when you advertise a game for a while and pump up the hype then ditch it with no official excuse(on Papyrus website) of course it's going to get people in a "hissy fit". Don't they care enough about their customers and say sorry? Don't get mad at me for stating the my opinion, I have every right to say what I'm saying. I'm a customer. Btw N3 is NOT a huge improvement over N2 and N3, IMHO. I believe they started working on a Nascar sim Based on the gpl engine before the development of GPL. I read that in a interview with a papy employee, somewhere.

Yawn! Yawn! I raise you one. buzard

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> yawn > > Scott, > > Sorry if it seems I'm slamming you personally, that wasn't my intention. > > But - your replies to my original post and my first rebuttal, seemed to > say > > I didn't know what I'm talking about. I had to defend my position. As for > > knowledge of the track, you could have asked some of your customers with > > experience at Riverside to play test for you. We would have been glad to > > help. And finally.... will you please look into changing the way points in > > turn six?

And in most cases it is true! I lived in San Bermardino, 10 miles north of Riverside and went there for many races. Imagine waiting over 5 years for someone to make "your" track and then completely***it up because of a very foolish mistake. I have been trying to buy the game for the last 3 days (only for Riverside) but could not locate it. It appears that it was a good thing I didn't find it. buzard

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> > Thanks for posting this, the only reason I was going to buy NL was for > > Riverside, so now I have an excuse to keep my money. > There's one of these posts for every game I've ever seen. > "Oh, this bug is making me keep my money." > blah, blah.

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> And in most cases it is true! I lived in San Bermardino, 10 miles > north of Riverside and went there for many races. Imagine waiting > over 5 years for someone to make "your" track and then > completely***it up because of a very foolish mistake. I have > been trying to buy the game for the last 3 days (only for Riverside) > but could not locate it. It appears that it was a good thing I didn't > find it. > buzard

Did they "completely***it up"? Or is this strictly a racing line issue, easy addressed by Papy with a patch? Hmmm....

Doug, Been reading the posts on this one, and just wanted to make a quick comment....... I've been following NASCAR since I was old enough to say "Petty".......and I do recall (and I have seen several tapes along with live races from Riverside) that on several, several occasions, NASCAR drivers DID take that line...they would cut the corner either because; A. They were trying to "cheat" an edge, or B. They just flat messed up According to Buddy Baker, it was usually the latter....he himself used to say "I raced for 10 years at Riverside before I found out the esses were paved!" *G* I do recall in 1987 Earnhardt making such a move, and picking up two positions...in the dirt!!!! The point is, NASCAR Stock cars weren't built to run on a road course in those days.....but they did. No, it's not a line that the likes of Dan Gurney or Mark Donohue would take, but then they were experienced road racers. At this time, Riverside was the only road course on the NASCAR tour. After taking several practice laps with the AI, I noticed that not all cars took that line on every lap......what it appears that Papy tried to do was to simulate a move that honestly took place alot during the NASCAR events. And as you and I know, AI won't do anything randomly.....take a few laps around N99's Tally with the new "three wide" AI for proof.....I've NEVER seen a car at Talladega hug the inside line all the way around (including the backstretch) without drafting help and still pull away. There is no way to simulate 100% real, true to life racing.......I think that the guys at Papy did a damned fine job at recreating a race track that has been gone for 10 years, and probably didnt' have alot on intact footage to go on. My best advice to you is to wait a week or so, and someone will come out with "improved" AI that will fix the problem. But I honestly think they did a good job trying to recreate a very unique situation. Great work, guys!!!! Some of the best money I've spent in a long time!!!!! -Brandon Reed Reed Racing & Engineering/Team Tabasco On Sun, 31 Oct 1999 04:24:55 -0700, "Douglas Sharpe"

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>Scott, >Sorry if it seems I'm slamming you personally, that wasn't my intention. >But - your replies to my original post and my first rebuttal, seemed to say >I didn't know what I'm talking about. I had to defend my position. As for >knowledge of the track, you could have asked some of your customers with >experience at Riverside to play test for you. We would have been glad to >help. And finally.... will you please look into changing the way points in >turn six?

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>NO I'm Not "ENTITLED" to anything your right, but when you advertise a >game for a while and pump up the hype then ditch it with no official >excuse(on Papyrus website) of course it's going to get people in a >"hissy fit". >Don't they care enough about their customers and say sorry? >Don't get mad at me for stating the my opinion, I have every right to >say what I'm saying. I'm a customer. >Btw N3 is NOT a huge improvement over N2 and N3, IMHO. >I believe they started working on a Nascar sim Based on the gpl engine >before the development of GPL. I read that in a interview with a papy >employee, somewhere.

Car companies display awsome concept cars at shows every year. Once in a while (usually Chrysler) they get built and sold. Sometimes something vaguely similar gets built years later. Often we never see anything remotely like them. Companies take decisions for any number of different reasons, many of which we couldn't even understand from outside the business. And you know what? They don't owe you shit. No sorry, no excuses, no explaination. Don McCorkle

It appears you should be working for Papy, Mr. Riverside Expert. Please by all means don't buy the game. And please by all means, quit your ***ing. You are beginning to sound like Tony Stewart. <G>

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> And in most cases it is true! I lived in San Bermardino, 10 miles > north of Riverside and went there for many races. Imagine waiting > over 5 years for someone to make "your" track and then > completely***it up because of a very foolish mistake. I have > been trying to buy the game for the last 3 days (only for Riverside) > but could not locate it. It appears that it was a good thing I didn't > find it. > buzard > > > Thanks for posting this, the only reason I was going to buy NL was for > > > Riverside, so now I have an excuse to keep my money. > > There's one of these posts for every game I've ever seen. > > "Oh, this bug is making me keep my money." > > blah, blah.

Reduntant repetive... redundant... did I menteion repetitive I would take these ramblings with a grain of salt.

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> That's a lame excuse. Your modeling for most of the track, the esses for > instance, is good. The amount of "off road" cornering and passing is about > right. But noway, and I was there in person to see it, did they apex turn > six at the inside fence every lap. Tha't over 30 FEET off the pavement, with > an off camber slope from the fence to the asphalt. And even though they ran > on bias ply tires they were slicks, which everybody knows have more bite on > pavement than dirt. I can attest to the fact that Dan Gurney didn't use your > line, and he was the master of Riverside.

I am going to guess that they used videos from 1970...is that the only specific year you are commenting on? Marc. > I have watched many NASCAR races from the turn 6 grandstands at Riverside. > The cars did not leave the track in turn 6. They would hook the inside right > tire and use it to pivot the car for the exit. > Would it be possible to see the videos you used to plot this AI path? What > races (years) did you to use? I have seen "off roading" in the esses, but it

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> was always a single lap incident, not an every lap occurence. > Just interested in seeing how you came to this conclusion. > buzard......owner of every Papyrus sim ever made. > > Found an AI bug at Riverside Turn Six. The AI is going all the way over

to > > the fences on both the left going in, and the right at the apex as the > > track. This is about 30 ft into the dirt on both sides! This happens with > > every car on every lap regardles of traffic. Looks like Papy got the way > > points wrong. Hope they fix this soon - the only reason I bought this was > > for Riverside!

Stop yawning - you're making me sleee...........zzzz :-)))) -- Cheers! Graeme Nash

Amen John :-) -- Cheers! Graeme Nash

I'd like to see them too. I worked RIR as a flag marshall for 5 years and then as a photographer for 6 more until it closed and the only drivers I ever saw off on the dirt on the inside of 6 were in deep trouble<g>. don [|]-(_)-[|]

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>Could you find out what videos were used in designing the line in turn >6. >I would really like to see for myself. I spent a lot of time at >Riverside >and don't recall anything like that. >"The truth is out there" >Yeah, right! Call me when you find it! >buzard >> I never meant to come across like that, if I did I apoligize also. As

far

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>> as the AI goes there are a few tools floating around on the net that will >> let you change the AI yourself. >> Scott Sanford >> Papyrus >> > Scott, >> > Sorry if it seems I'm slamming you personally, that wasn't my

intention. >> > But - your replies to my original post and my first rebuttal, seemed to >> say >> > I didn't know what I'm talking about. I had to defend my position. As for >> > knowledge of the track, you could have asked some of your customers with >> > experience at Riverside to play test for you. We would have been glad to >> > help. And finally.... will you please look into changing the way points in >> > turn six?

You *did* think before you said that, didn't you?!? You mean like the ICR2 settings bug, that only took them 8 months to patch? Or do you mean like the GPL patch that only took them 9 months to come up with (and created a batch of new bugs)? Or do you mean the patch for the patch for GPL, which has been sitting in the Sierra vaults for over a month? GMAFB! ;) "But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark

Ouch! That's getting really mean! buzard

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> It appears you should be working for Papy, Mr. Riverside Expert. Please by > all means don't buy the game. And please by all means, quit your ***ing. > > And in most cases it is true! I lived in San Bermardino, 10 miles > > north of Riverside and went there for many races. Imagine waiting > > over 5 years for someone to make "your" track and then > > completely***it up because of a very foolish mistake. I have > > been trying to buy the game for the last 3 days (only for Riverside) > > but could not locate it. It appears that it was a good thing I didn't > > find it. > > buzard > > > > Thanks for posting this, the only reason I was going to buy NL was for > > > > Riverside, so now I have an excuse to keep my money. > > > There's one of these posts for every game I've ever seen. > > > "Oh, this bug is making me keep my money." > > > blah, blah.

But accurate. Getting 2 wheels off the pavement in the esses while passing was common. Getting all 4 wheels off the road inside of the track in turn was never part of the normal racing line. I was with Doug when he got his SCCA racing license at Willow Springs in an FV. He raced FV and showroom stock cars at Riverside. He drives much better than he types! ; ) buzard

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> Reduntant repetive... redundant... did I menteion repetitive > I would take these ramblings with a grain of salt. > > That's a lame excuse. Your modeling for most of the track, the esses for > > instance, is good. The amount of "off road" cornering and passing is about > > right. But noway, and I was there in person to see it, did they apex turn > > six at the inside fence every lap. Tha't over 30 FEET off the pavement, with > > an off camber slope from the fence to the asphalt. And even though they ran > > on bias ply tires they were slicks, which everybody knows have more bite on > > pavement than dirt. I can attest to the fact that Dan Gurney didn't use your > > line, and he was the master of Riverside.

Could you find out what videos were used in designing the line in turn 6. I would really like to see for myself. I spent a lot of time at Riverside and don't recall anything like that. "The truth is out there" Yeah, right! Call me when you find it! buzard

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> I never meant to come across like that, if I did I apoligize also. As far > as the AI goes there are a few tools floating around on the net that will > let you change the AI yourself. > Scott Sanford > Papyrus > > Scott, > > Sorry if it seems I'm slamming you personally, that wasn't my intention. > > But - your replies to my original post and my first rebuttal, seemed to > say > > I didn't know what I'm talking about. I had to defend my position. As for > > knowledge of the track, you could have asked some of your customers with > > experience at Riverside to play test for you. We would have been glad to > > help. And finally.... will you please look into changing the way points in > > turn six?

But to make all the cars take the same line every lap, modeled after a few instances....????? I would still like to see those videos that they used. I never saw anything like that in years of sitting in turn 6. But I agree, it can be fixed. What is the best way to learn how to alter the line? I assume it is via the .LP file. I know there is/was a utility that changes a replay into an .LP file. But what else needs changing? Where can I get info? I know where to get the tools but without the knowledge the tools are useless. Also the tools are for N2, how do I modify for NL? buzard

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> Doug, > Been reading the posts on this one, and just wanted to make a quick > comment....... > I've been following NASCAR since I was old enough to say > "Petty".......and I do recall (and I have seen several tapes along > with live races from Riverside) that on several, several occasions, > NASCAR drivers DID take that line...they would cut the corner either > because; > A. They were trying to "cheat" an edge, or > B. They just flat messed up > According to Buddy Baker, it was usually the latter....he himself used > to say "I raced for 10 years at Riverside before I found out the esses > were paved!" *G* > I do recall in 1987 Earnhardt making such a move, and picking up two > positions...in the dirt!!!! > The point is, NASCAR Stock cars weren't built to run on a road course > in those days.....but they did. No, it's not a line that the likes of > Dan Gurney or Mark Donohue would take, but then they were experienced > road racers. At this time, Riverside was the only road course on the > NASCAR tour. > After taking several practice laps with the AI, I noticed that not all > cars took that line on every lap......what it appears that Papy tried > to do was to simulate a move that honestly took place alot during the > NASCAR events. And as you and I know, AI won't do anything > randomly.....take a few laps around N99's Tally with the new "three > wide" AI for proof.....I've NEVER seen a car at Talladega hug the > inside line all the way around (including the backstretch) without > drafting help and still pull away. > There is no way to simulate 100% real, true to life racing.......I > think that the guys at Papy did a damned fine job at recreating a race > track that has been gone for 10 years, and probably didnt' have alot > on intact footage to go on. > My best advice to you is to wait a week or so, and someone will come > out with "improved" AI that will fix the problem. But I honestly > think they did a good job trying to recreate a very unique situation. > Great work, guys!!!! Some of the best money I've spent in a long > time!!!!! > -Brandon Reed > Reed Racing & Engineering/Team Tabasco > On Sun, 31 Oct 1999 04:24:55 -0700, "Douglas Sharpe" > >Scott, > >Sorry if it seems I'm slamming you personally, that wasn't my intention. > >But - your replies to my original post and my first rebuttal, seemed to say > >I didn't know what I'm talking about. I had to defend my position. As for > >knowledge of the track, you could have asked some of your customers with > >experience at Riverside to play test for you. We would have been glad to > >help. And finally.... will you please look into changing the way points in > >turn six?

So what, like who cares what you buy!! They raced "differently" back then. So if you want to race the way they do now. There is NO POINT in you buying a game that is based on the 1970 era of racing. You people think of the most assinine reasons NOT to buy a game. To bad you did not have that same attitude about MS Windows, because if you did we would not see your shit here now. GO BUY A PLAYSTATION and wine to Sony that you don't like the way the game plays, will they fix it? NO they won't.

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>And in most cases it is true! I lived in San Bermardino, 10 miles >north of Riverside and went there for many races. Imagine waiting >over 5 years for someone to make "your" track and then >completely***it up because of a very foolish mistake. I have >been trying to buy the game for the last 3 days (only for Riverside) >but could not locate it. It appears that it was a good thing I didn't >find it. >buzard >> > Thanks for posting this, the only reason I was going to buy NL was for >> > Riverside, so now I have an excuse to keep my money. >> There's one of these posts for every game I've ever seen. >> "Oh, this bug is making me keep my money." >> blah, blah.

yawn

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> But to make all the cars take the same line every lap, modeled after > a few instances....????? I would still like to see those videos that > they used. I never saw anything like that in years of sitting in turn > 6. > But I agree, it can be fixed. What is the best way to learn how to > alter the line? I assume it is via the .LP file. I know there > is/was a utility that changes a replay into an .LP file. But what > else needs changing? Where can I get info? I know where to get the tools > but without the knowledge the tools are useless. Also the tools > are for N2, how do I modify for NL? > buzard > > Doug, > > Been reading the posts on this one, and just wanted to make a quick > > comment....... > > I've been following NASCAR since I was old enough to say > > "Petty".......and I do recall (and I have seen several tapes along > > with live races from Riverside) that on several, several occasions, > > NASCAR drivers DID take that line...they would cut the corner either > > because; > > A. They were trying to "cheat" an edge, or > > B. They just flat messed up > > According to Buddy Baker, it was usually the latter....he himself used > > to say "I raced for 10 years at Riverside before I found out the esses > > were paved!" *G* > > I do recall in 1987 Earnhardt making such a move, and picking up two > > positions...in the dirt!!!! > > The point is, NASCAR Stock cars weren't built to run on a road course > > in those days.....but they did. No, it's not a line that the likes of > > Dan Gurney or Mark Donohue would take, but then they were experienced > > road racers. At this time, Riverside was the only road course on the > > NASCAR tour. > > After taking several practice laps with the AI, I noticed that not all > > cars took that line on every lap......what it appears that Papy tried > > to do was to simulate a move that honestly took place alot during the > > NASCAR events. And as you and I know, AI won't do anything > > randomly.....take a few laps around N99's Tally with the new "three > > wide" AI for proof.....I've NEVER seen a car at Talladega hug the > > inside line all the way around (including the backstretch) without > > drafting help and still pull away. > > There is no way to simulate 100% real, true to life racing.......I > > think that the guys at Papy did a damned fine job at recreating a race > > track that has been gone for 10 years, and probably didnt' have alot > > on intact footage to go on. > > My best advice to you is to wait a week or so, and someone will come > > out with "improved" AI that will fix the problem. But I honestly > > think they did a good job trying to recreate a very unique situation. > > Great work, guys!!!! Some of the best money I've spent in a long > > time!!!!! > > -Brandon Reed > > Reed Racing & Engineering/Team Tabasco > > On Sun, 31 Oct 1999 04:24:55 -0700, "Douglas Sharpe" > > >Scott, > > >Sorry if it seems I'm slamming you personally, that wasn't my

intention. > > >But - your replies to my original post and my first rebuttal, seemed to say > > >I didn't know what I'm talking about. I had to defend my position. As for > > >knowledge of the track, you could have asked some of your customers with > > >experience at Riverside to play test for you. We would have been glad to > > >help. And finally.... will you please look into changing the way points in > > >turn six?

zzzzzzzzzzz, yawn

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> I'd like to see them too. I worked RIR as a flag marshall for 5 years and > then as a photographer for 6 more until it closed and the only drivers I > ever saw off on the dirt on the inside of 6 were in deep trouble<g>. > don > [|]-(_)-[|] > >Could you find out what videos were used in designing the line in turn > >6. > >I would really like to see for myself. I spent a lot of time at > >Riverside > >and don't recall anything like that. > >"The truth is out there" > >Yeah, right! Call me when you find it! > >buzard > >> I never meant to come across like that, if I did I apoligize also. As > far > >> as the AI goes there are a few tools floating around on the net that

will

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> >> let you change the AI yourself. > >> Scott Sanford > >> Papyrus > >> > Scott, > >> > Sorry if it seems I'm slamming you personally, that wasn't my > intention. > >> > But - your replies to my original post and my first rebuttal, seemed

to

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> >> say > >> > I didn't know what I'm talking about. I had to defend my position. As > for > >> > knowledge of the track, you could have asked some of your customers > with > >> > experience at Riverside to play test for you. We would have been glad > to > >> > help. And finally.... will you please look into changing the way

points > in > >> > turn six?

yawn

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> But accurate. Getting 2 wheels off the pavement in the esses while > passing was common. Getting all 4 wheels off the road inside of > the track in turn was never part of the normal racing line. > I was with Doug when he got his SCCA racing license at Willow > Springs in an FV. He raced FV and showroom stock cars at Riverside. > He drives much better than he types! ; ) > buzard > > Reduntant repetive... redundant... did I menteion repetitive > > I would take these ramblings with a grain of salt. > > > That's a lame excuse. Your modeling for most of the track, the esses

for > > > instance, is good. The amount of "off road" cornering and passing is about > > > right. But noway, and I was there in person to see it, did they apex turn > > > six at the inside fence every lap. Tha't over 30 FEET off the pavement, with > > > an off camber slope from the fence to the asphalt. And even though they ran > > > on bias ply tires they were slicks, which everybody knows have more bite on > > > pavement than dirt. I can attest to the fact that Dan Gurney didn't use your > > > line, and he was the master of Riverside.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, yawn

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> >Did they "completely***it up"? Or is this strictly a racing line > >issue, > >easy addressed by Papy with a patch? Hmmm.... > You *did* think before you said that, didn't you?!? > You mean like the ICR2 settings bug, that only took them 8 months > to patch? > Or do you mean like the GPL patch that only took them 9 months to > come up with (and created a batch of new bugs)? > Or do you mean the patch for the patch for GPL, which has been > sitting in the Sierra vaults for over a month? > GMAFB! ;) > "But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was > nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into > a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark

yawn

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> >NO I'm Not "ENTITLED" to anything your right, but when you advertise a > >game for a while and pump up the hype then ditch it with no official > >excuse(on Papyrus website) of course it's going to get people in a > >"hissy fit". > >Don't they care enough about their customers and say sorry? > >Don't get mad at me for stating the my opinion, I have every right to > >say what I'm saying. I'm a customer. > >Btw N3 is NOT a huge improvement over N2 and N3, IMHO. > >I believe they started working on a Nascar sim Based on the gpl engine > >before the development of GPL. I read that in a interview with a papy > >employee, somewhere. > Car companies display awsome concept cars at shows every year. Once in a

while > (usually Chrysler) they get built and sold. Sometimes something vaguely > similar gets built years later. Often we never see anything remotely like > them. Companies take decisions for any number of different reasons, many of > which we couldn't even understand from outside the business. And you know > what? They don't owe you shit. No sorry, no excuses, no explaination. > Don McCorkle

Hey, Mike, do you work for Sierra customer relations? :) "But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark

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> So what, like who cares what you buy!! > They raced "differently" back then. So if you want to race the way > they do now. There is NO POINT in you buying a game that is based on > the 1970 era of racing. > You people think of the most assinine reasons NOT to buy a game. To > bad you did not have that same attitude about MS Windows, because if > you did we would not see your shit here now. GO BUY A PLAYSTATION and > wine to Sony that you don't like the way the game plays, will they fix > it? NO they won't.

[ ] You fully understand the purpose of a newsgroup l8er ronny -- "I heard if you play the NT-4.0-CD backwards, you get a satanic message." "That's nothing, if you play it forward, it installs NT-4.0"

You can shut up now. -- Cheers! Graeme Nash

It's almost as bad as having HAD "your" track (Portland in my case) and then having it REMOVED from the newest version! Gunner

Really Big Yawn...

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> > north of Riverside and went there for many races. Imagine waiting > > over 5 years for someone to make "your" track and then > > completely***it up because of a very foolish mistake. I have > It's almost as bad as having HAD "your" track (Portland in my case) and > then having it REMOVED from the newest version! > Gunner

Load up N99 again, then grab the v1.0(I hope they've posted it) of the TPTCC patch and run Portland to your hearts content. Either Aussie V-8's Touring cars, or 2.0 litre Super Tourers. Have fun. dave henrie

speech.

Nope, just got tired of hearing some jerk, piss, and moan about the Riverside track, in the new Legends Nascar. Although he seemed like an expert, I'm sure he was just some racecar driver wannabe. : )>

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> >zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, yawn > Hey, Mike, do you work for Sierra customer relations? :) > "But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was > nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into > a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark

You haven't been around this newsgroup very long, eh? [No disrespect intended.] Because if you have, that is all this newsgroup is,***and moan,***and moan, about EVERY sim that is out. N1 N2 N2 Expansion NR1999 CTS N3 NL NASRev NASRev SE ...and those are just the ones that are in the NASCAR family. They even *** about "the sim to end all sims" [NOT!] GPL. There is no pleasing people in this group. Period.

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> Nope, just got tired of hearing some jerk, piss, and moan about the > Riverside track, in the new Legends Nascar. Although he seemed like an > expert, I'm sure he was just some racecar driver wannabe. > : )> > > >zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, yawn > > Hey, Mike, do you work for Sierra customer relations? :) > > "But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was > > nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into > > a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark

I can think of better uses for free speech other than repeated yawning... Er....... WTF? -- Cheers! Graeme Nash

Well glad to make ya laugh Scott :) And as far as cars you are gonna post I just wonder if your planning on using Quake Bot AI so that it hunts down smartass posters like myself and runs me into the wall :) Norm (the one with the target on his rear wing) > I don't know, this actually made me laugh.<G> But I will pass along this > warning to him, once we start posting car files Norm better watch out for a

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> red #3 in his mirror.<G> > Scott Sanford > Papyrus > > > Just wondering then...in those tapes, did the cars behind an accident > stop > > > in the middle of the track and spin back n fourth in a circle :) Just > > > wondering cuz that happens in N3 as well and the only time I see real > > Nascar > > > drivers spin like that is when that Black # 3 is around :) > > Geeze, was that necessary? > > 1001 Papyrus employees quitting r.a.s. on a wall.. 1002 Papyrus

employees

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> > quitting r.a.s. on a wall... > > -- > > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> > > -- May the Downforce be with you... > > "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't

realise > > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world." -----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==---------- http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World! ------== Over 73,000 Newsgroups - Including Dedicated Binaries Servers ==-----

Other than the unusual line in turn 6, Riverside is fantastic. I can't find anything to complain about at Ontario, and I did look for something to *** about. I can't comment on the other tracks since I have never been to them. Great sim. buzard

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> You haven't been around this newsgroup very long, eh? [No > disrespect intended.] > Because if you have, that is all this newsgroup is,***and > moan,***and moan, about EVERY sim that is out. > N1 > N2 > N2 Expansion > NR1999 > CTS > N3 > NL > NASRev > NASRev SE > ...and those are just the ones that are in the NASCAR family. > They even *** about "the sim to end all sims" [NOT!] GPL. > There is no pleasing people in this group. Period. > > Nope, just got tired of hearing some jerk, piss, and moan about the > > Riverside track, in the new Legends Nascar. Although he seemed like an > > expert, I'm sure he was just some racecar driver wannabe. > > : )> > > > >zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, yawn > > > Hey, Mike, do you work for Sierra customer relations? :) > > > "But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was > > > nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into > > > a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark

> speech. God bless my filter list. *KER-PLONK!!!* -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Well, let's remember that N3 is a WinstonCup/Busch Grand National sim. And that all Nascar Racing : 1999 Edition and Nascar Racing 2 tracks are fully compatible in N3, at the moment you stay within the 40track limitation of the all.cal file (well, maybe 60 soon, speculations here hehe). -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

> speech. You give Americans, as well as free speech, a bad name. Grow up or go away. -- Chuck Kandler #70 ChuckK or KS70 on Won.net K&S Racing http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 The box said "Windows 95 or better", so I installed LINUX!

right back atcha! parley-vu-francie?

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> > speech. > God bless my filter list. > *KER-PLONK!!!* > -- > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

And you are without a doubt Mr. America, correct? I'm a vet, and damn

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> > speech. > You give Americans, as well as free speech, a bad name. Grow up or go > away. > -- > Chuck Kandler #70 > ChuckK or KS70 on Won.net > K&S Racing > http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 > The box said "Windows 95 or better", so I installed LINUX!

Yea, I know. Some people are just to sensitive. They bug the ***out of everyone, wanting to know when the new sims are coming out. Then when they finally DO come out, all they want to do is complain. I like Nascar3 better than Nascar 2, or 99. It's fun, and I think that was the purpose of it to begin with. Now I'll grant you, some here, are just racecar driver wannabes, and will never be satisfied. To me it is just a game I play on the PC, to pass the time. It is not life or death. By the way, pleased to meet ya. Mike

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> You haven't been around this newsgroup very long, eh? [No > disrespect intended.] > Because if you have, that is all this newsgroup is,***and > moan,***and moan, about EVERY sim that is out. > N1 > N2 > N2 Expansion > NR1999 > CTS > N3 > NL > NASRev > NASRev SE > ...and those are just the ones that are in the NASCAR family. > They even *** about "the sim to end all sims" [NOT!] GPL. > There is no pleasing people in this group. Period. > > Nope, just got tired of hearing some jerk, piss, and moan about the > > Riverside track, in the new Legends Nascar. Although he seemed like an > > expert, I'm sure he was just some racecar driver wannabe. > > : )> > > > >zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, yawn > > > Hey, Mike, do you work for Sierra customer relations? :) > > > "But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was > > > nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into > > > a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark

> And you are without a doubt Mr. America, correct? I'm a vet, and damn Too bad them snipers missed....................................... -- Chuck Kandler #70 ChuckK or KS70 on Won.net K&S Racing http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 The box said "Windows 95 or better", so I installed LINUX!

ROTFLOL. your wit goes right off the Ph scale sometimes Bruce <G> MS