Attn: Saitek & Logitech FF wheel owners

My T2 is really getting worn out, so I'm thinking of picking up a new, Force Feedback wheel. My only options, among the ones we sell at the store where I work, are the Saitek and the Logitech (we have the Microsoft too but I've seen so many of them break, and they don't have dual-axis pedals so I know to avoid it). I'm curious about how they have stood the test of time for those who own them. Anyone had problems with them? Here are my pluses and minuses as I see them other than the unknown longevity factor: Saitek's has nicer pedals, but their lack of play makes me wonder if I can be as precise with my footwork as I could with the T2 (apart from being unable to trailbrake). It has a stickshift, which I like, in addition to the paddles. Downside is I'm not so sure how good the self-centering is on a unit that requires power to accomplish that. It can translate up-and-down forces into the left-and-right axis, which may or may not be nice. It has plenty of turning radius. Logitech's centers by itself without power, and feels a little sturdier. Its pedals downright suck. I don't know if I could get used to using them, driving as I do in my socks. The pedal unit looks heavier, though. I'm not sure if its pedals have any more play than the Saitek's, as we don't have a unit on display and it's been a while since I've touched one. It supports I-Force, which a couple older games I occasionally play (like SODA Off-Road Racing) require. I don't remember how much turning radius it has. I presume neither unit requires calibration. I know the Saitek doesn't, as we've had one on demo before. I've never felt the Logitech in action, so have no idea how its forces compare. -- http://www2.cruzio.com/~keeper/toons.html - Animaniacs, P&TB, F!, etc. files http://www.armory.com/~keeper/midi.html - My own MIDI files - Updated 5 Dec.

I'm wondering about the Saitek wheel too. CompUSA, about the only place with FF wheels I can get to, has only the MS wheel and the Saitek wheel. Seems from the box like the Saitek is just another re-package of the MS innards. Is it also using the joystick port like the MS FF wheel? THat would be a reason not to buy, IMO- the Joystick port just isn't really fast enough, from what I read, to keep up with feedback required for a sim. I noticed that the MS non-FF wheel did have a USB connector- maybe it is just a matter of time before the MS FF wheel has one.

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>My T2 is really getting worn out, so I'm thinking of picking up a new, >Force Feedback wheel. My only options, among the ones we sell at the >store where I work, are the Saitek and the Logitech (we have the Microsoft >too but I've seen so many of them break, and they don't have dual-axis >pedals so I know to avoid it). I'm curious about how they have stood >the test of time for those who own them. Anyone had problems with them? >Here are my pluses and minuses as I see them other than the unknown >longevity factor: >Saitek's has nicer pedals, but their lack of play makes me wonder if I >can be as precise with my footwork as I could with the T2 (apart from >being unable to trailbrake). It has a stickshift, which I like, in >addition to the paddles. Downside is I'm not so sure how good the >self-centering is on a unit that requires power to accomplish that. >It can translate up-and-down forces into the left-and-right axis, which >may or may not be nice. It has plenty of turning radius. >Logitech's centers by itself without power, and feels a little sturdier. >Its pedals downright suck. I don't know if I could get used to using >them, driving as I do in my socks. The pedal unit looks heavier, though. >I'm not sure if its pedals have any more play than the Saitek's, as we >don't have a unit on display and it's been a while since I've touched one. >It supports I-Force, which a couple older games I occasionally play (like >SODA Off-Road Racing) require. I don't remember how much turning radius >it has. >I presume neither unit requires calibration. I know the Saitek doesn't, >as we've had one on demo before. I've never felt the Logitech in action, >so have no idea how its forces compare. >-- >http://www2.cruzio.com/~keeper/toons.html - Animaniacs, P&TB, F!, etc. files >http://www.armory.com/~keeper/midi.html - My own MIDI files - Updated 5 Dec.

Here's a few things I've learned: 1. I've had a Saitek FF for about 2 months. It's pedals suck too, but you can stick a raquetball under the brake and a foam *** ball under the accelerator, which makes it pretty nice. The catch is that you will now have to secure the pedal unit to the floor somehow to keep it from moving. Maybe you can do this with Logitech's pedals too. 2. Logitech has the best FF effects. 3. Logitech uses pots instead of optical sensors. This is very bad, especially since the wheel pot is said to be difficult to replace. Saitek has an optical sensor in the wheel, but pots in the pedals. Microsoft has an optical sensor in the wheel, but I'm not sure about the pedals. Optical sensors should last MUCH longer than pots. If the Microsoft wheel has no pots at all (not likely), I would definitely go with that one. It's really not an easy choice. Maybe that new Ferrari wheel will turn out to be the best.

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>I'm wondering about the Saitek wheel too. CompUSA, about the only >place with FF wheels I can get to, has only the MS wheel and the >Saitek wheel. Seems from the box like the Saitek is just another >re-package of the MS innards. Is it also using the joystick port like >the MS FF wheel? THat would be a reason not to buy, IMO- the Joystick >port just isn't really fast enough, from what I read, to keep up with >feedback required for a sim. I noticed that the MS non-FF wheel did >have a USB connector- maybe it is just a matter of time before the MS >FF wheel has one. >>My T2 is really getting worn out, so I'm thinking of picking up a new, >>Force Feedback wheel. My only options, among the ones we sell at the >>store where I work, are the Saitek and the Logitech (we have the Microsoft >>too but I've seen so many of them break, and they don't have dual-axis >>pedals so I know to avoid it). I'm curious about how they have stood >>the test of time for those who own them. Anyone had problems with them? >>Here are my pluses and minuses as I see them other than the unknown >>longevity factor: >>Saitek's has nicer pedals, but their lack of play makes me wonder if I >>can be as precise with my footwork as I could with the T2 (apart from >>being unable to trailbrake). It has a stickshift, which I like, in >>addition to the paddles. Downside is I'm not so sure how good the >>self-centering is on a unit that requires power to accomplish that. >>It can translate up-and-down forces into the left-and-right axis, which >>may or may not be nice. It has plenty of turning radius. >>Logitech's centers by itself without power, and feels a little sturdier. >>Its pedals downright suck. I don't know if I could get used to using >>them, driving as I do in my socks. The pedal unit looks heavier, though. >>I'm not sure if its pedals have any more play than the Saitek's, as we >>don't have a unit on display and it's been a while since I've touched one. >>It supports I-Force, which a couple older games I occasionally play (like >>SODA Off-Road Racing) require. I don't remember how much turning radius >>it has. >>I presume neither unit requires calibration. I know the Saitek doesn't, >>as we've had one on demo before. I've never felt the Logitech in action, >>so have no idea how its forces compare. >>--

#2159831 >>http://www2.cruzio.com/~keeper/toons.html - Animaniacs, P&TB, F!, etc. files >>http://www.armory.com/~keeper/midi.html - My own MIDI files - Updated 5 Dec.

Well, you certainly know your wheels. They do have dual-axis. I hope you're not responsible for selling these things. --- Antti Markus Peteri 15 miles. your dim light shines from so far away - Soul Asylum, Promises Broken

Ron, I've had my LWFF since last November with no problems at all. Yes, the pedals are a bit difficult to get used to, but they aren't nearly as bad as some people try to make them out to be. You can use your T2 pedals in GPL with the LWFF wheel either by rewiring the pedals with the wiring harness from the LWFF or by plugging the T2 pedals into your gameport and the LWFF into the USB port. There are instructions for this on Alisons site. http://simracing.com/alison/gpl/ -- don [|]-(_)-[|]

I have been using the Logitech for 3 weeks now and I am really happy with it. I chose it over the others purely on the feel of the wheel and the fact that it connects to the USB port (WIN 98) or a Serial Port. I also 'drive in my socks' and have no problems at all dipping the pedals. The Logitech does have a calibration utility but is self centering. Brgds -- Mark "The arrow on a moving target, the archer must be sure of his aim........" N. Peart

<snip> Yes, they do use pots, but also an onboard A/D converter to get rid of any pot-related jitters. Sort of a mini-PDPI card built-in. I've had my LWF since they first came out and the pots have given me NO problems at all, which is a far cry from any of the pot-based controllers I've used before. As for replacement, it's no big deal as long as you have the right kind of pot. The steering pot's held in by a simple tab and a dab of silicone (and some nifty green epoxy putty on mine:-)) and appears to be the same as the pots in my CH pedals. I agree full-digital would be the ideal and expect it's on the way from Logitech, but if you need a wheel right NOW, I wouldn't hesitate on the Logitech because of the pot issue. Cheers, Steve B.

the Saitek uses the joystick port on sound cards but uses no analog information only digital. Its performance is equal or superior to the usb ported counterparts. the sensitivity of the pedals are noticeably better and I shaved a full second off my monza times in GPL after 15 laps with the same setup I've been using . In N3 after 10 laps at Darlington with the same setup I ran with the Thrustmaster Pro <my old wheel > I was able to beat my best time yet again - I also found that adjusting the return to center and forced gain settings makes the wheel very tailorable to your driving needs regardless of whether you decide to use FF in the game or not - I use the FF button built into the wheel when I want that "stiff" feel in my hands without the FF enabled in the game . I too wondered when I pulled the pedals out of the box <they were awful light feeling > but the pedals on the R4 force have adjustable tensioners built into the bottom and with a couple of tweaks I was able to get a good feel for them and the digital vs analog with the pedals shines through as you can visibibly see the difference in acceleration when you take the track . definately worth every penny you would spend on one and the seperate axis for brake and pedal is another added bonus , I wont say it's good unless its really good to me . This is a great wheel !!! -- David Hudson - "Gambler 1" Team Peregrine Racing http://members.xoom.com/_XOOM/Team3dfx/teamperegrine/ Sponsored proudly by 3dfx Interactive Inc www.3dfx.com & by Saitek International www.saitekusa.com I have been using the Logitech for 3 weeks now and I am really happy with it. I chose it over the others purely on the feel of the wheel and the fact that it connects to the USB port (WIN 98) or a Serial Port. I also 'drive in my socks' and have no problems at all dipping the pedals. The Logitech does have a calibration utility but is self centering. Brgds -- Mark "The arrow on a moving target, the archer must be sure of his aim........" N. Peart

OK, thanks for all the detail- but a couple things I gots to know before I buy a Saitek wheel- what's this?: Secondly, I'm all set to buy a Saitek for the simple reason that it is one of the only 2 available by car to me, and it is pretty cheap now. (Logitech would be my first choice). But I definitely haven't heard anywhere else that the joystick port can work as good as the USB. You might be right, but I need to know why- is there a digital way to send info through the port that is faster? The issue of latency is key to me. Also, the pedals are also digital? They still have Pots tho- right? (not the optical sensors) BTW, Thanks for the indepth reply you gave.

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>the Saitek uses the joystick port on sound cards but uses no analog >information only digital. Its performance is equal or superior to the >usb ported counterparts. the sensitivity of the pedals are noticeably >better and I shaved a full second off my monza times in GPL after 15 laps >with the same setup I've been using . In N3 after 10 laps at Darlington with >the same setup I ran with the Thrustmaster Pro <my old wheel > I was able >to beat my best time yet again - I also found that adjusting the return to >center >and forced gain settings makes the wheel very tailorable to your driving >needs >regardless of whether you decide to use FF in the game or not - I use the FF >button built into the wheel when I want that "stiff" feel in my hands >without >the FF enabled in the game . I too wondered when I pulled the pedals out of >the box ><they were awful light feeling > but the pedals on the R4 force have >adjustable tensioners >built into the bottom and with a couple of tweaks I was able to get a good >feel >for them and the digital vs analog with the pedals shines through as you can >visibibly >see the difference in acceleration when you take the track . >definately worth every penny you would spend on one and the seperate axis >for brake and pedal is another added bonus , I wont say it's good unless its >really good to me . This is a great wheel !!! >-- >David Hudson - "Gambler 1" >Team Peregrine Racing >http://members.xoom.com/_XOOM/Team3dfx/teamperegrine/ >Sponsored proudly by 3dfx Interactive Inc www.3dfx.com >& by Saitek International www.saitekusa.com >>My T2 is really getting worn out, so I'm thinking of picking up a new, >>Force Feedback wheel. My only options, among the ones we sell at the >>store where I work, are the Saitek and the Logitech (we have the Microsoft >>too but I've seen so many of them break, and they don't have dual-axis >>pedals so I know to avoid it). I'm curious about how they have stood >>the test of time for those who own them. Anyone had problems with them? >>Here are my pluses and minuses as I see them other than the unknown >>longevity factor: >>Saitek's has nicer pedals, but their lack of play makes me wonder if I >>can be as precise with my footwork as I could with the T2 (apart from >>being unable to trailbrake). It has a stickshift, which I like, in >>addition to the paddles. Downside is I'm not so sure how good the >>self-centering is on a unit that requires power to accomplish that. >>It can translate up-and-down forces into the left-and-right axis, which >>may or may not be nice. It has plenty of turning radius. >>Logitech's centers by itself without power, and feels a little sturdier. >>Its pedals downright suck. I don't know if I could get used to using >>them, driving as I do in my socks. The pedal unit looks heavier, though. >>I'm not sure if its pedals have any more play than the Saitek's, as we >>don't have a unit on display and it's been a while since I've touched one. >>It supports I-Force, which a couple older games I occasionally play (like >>SODA Off-Road Racing) require. I don't remember how much turning radius >>it has. >>I presume neither unit requires calibration. I know the Saitek doesn't, >>as we've had one on demo before. I've never felt the Logitech in action, >>so have no idea how its forces compare. >I have been using the Logitech for 3 weeks now and I am really happy >with it. I chose it over the others purely on the feel of the wheel >and the fact that it connects to the USB port (WIN 98) or a Serial >Port. >I also 'drive in my socks' and have no problems at all dipping the >pedals. >The Logitech does have a calibration utility but is self centering. >Brgds >-- >Mark >"The arrow on a moving target, > the archer must be sure of his aim........" > N. Peart

>the Saitek uses the joystick port on sound cards but uses no analog >information only digital. Its performance is equal or superior to the >usb ported counterparts. the sensitivity of the pedals are noticeably This guy, absolutely, has to work for Saitek !!!!! No one in their right mind would recommend Saitek based on the performance of the pedals! I own one and have tried everything to make them easier to use. Bottom line is that the stroke is way to small to do any feathering of the brake. Saitek is totally unresponsive to any of my suggestions. I forwarded them all of the bad comments about the R4 that have been made on this group, but never heard anything. The 'bury your head in the sand' syndrome. DON'T BUY SAITEK Tom

On Fri, 1 Oct 1999 08:21:19 -0400, "Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote: > >Yes, they do use pots, but also an onboard A/D converter to get rid of any >pot-related jitters. Sort of a mini-PDPI card built-in. I've had my LWFCan confirm that, works absolutely smooth. For the pedal: I already had problems with the acc. pot. Jittering messed up the calibration, so I only had 80% effect afterwards. I replaced brake and acc-pots, now everything is running smooth (I cannot get the pots for replacement here in Malaysia. BTW, what do they cost in the western world?) <snip> >I agree full-digital would be the ideal and expect >it's on the way from Logitech, but if you need a wheel right NOW, I wouldn't >hesitate on the Logitech because of the pot issue. > Fully agreed. Jens --------------------------------------------- [email hidden] Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address

Tom, didn't you read the signature? On Fri, 1 Oct 1999 14:16:11 -0400, "Tom Witman" <[email hidden]> wrote: >This guy, absolutely, has to work for Saitek !!!!! No one in their right >mind would recommend Saitek based on the performance of the pedals! I own<snip> --------------------------------------------- [email hidden] Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address