Are hotlappers really crashers?

What's this I hear so much about hotlappers not being good race drivers? In every thread about speed or racing strategy it invariably pops up: there is this breed of "hotlappers" who always qualify on pole and always crash while the slow and reliable tortoise takes the chequered flag... :) Well that's not my experience. I have raced many of the guys on top of the hotlap charts, and they all have proven to be fast, reliable, very consistent and good in traffic. I think you have no chance to appear on those charts if you aren't consistent. How could you learn to lap that fast if you spent your time recovering from crashes anyway? I think the whole idea of a crashing hotlapper is just a try to kid oneself: "I could go that fast but I'm not interested in hotlapping - I'm a _true_ racer"... :) Let's give the fastest guys the credit they deserve: they are very talented and willing to do a massive amount of work to get what they thrive for - the perfect lap. As for the rest of us: just enjoy the racing and don't let it get to you that someone somewhere is faster... Cheers, Jussi PS. Just in case you were wondering: I'm about 5 seconds a minute off pace, so there...

yes. Rik Anthrax - - "trust the government?? what are you, some kind of moron?"

Pardon my ignorance, I'm new to this forum .... what are 'hotlappers'? Is it a safety-be-damned, wide open approach? extra risks taken? Seems they're not looked on favorably whatever they are :) jeff

Interesting idea. Maybe we should be emphasizing total time for a completed race, instead of one hotlap. That would take into account all of the factors in a race, many of which are not controlled by the racer, but have to be dealt with in any race. Gene

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> Wrong.... > Whether a hotlapper is able to stay on the pavement for a whole GP or not > isn't the issue. They practise A LOT so if they can keep concentrated at > (for them) a snail's pace they should have no problem finishing anyway. > There is also no jealousy or envy because the hotlappers are faster. It is > the relentless pursuit of speed that is held against them. > The name of the game is racing simulation which means the object should be > to recreate the experience to best of your ability, not to acchieve "the > perfect lap" by whatever means nescessary. Without exception the really

fast > times are set using setups and driving techniques, which outside the game's > world would lead to catastrophical failure of the car or the driver. The > illusion of realism is broken and thus, for me, the feeling of being beaten > fair and square (and don't get me started on the humiliating practise of > forcing the slower driver to pass, so he can be put in his place again). > And for what??? -IMO Wolfgang or Ian or Dave or whoever can beat 99% of > people on GSB/VROC without even breaking a sweat let alone resort to > hotlapping techniques. Then, why treat a simulation like just another arcade

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> game? > Just my opinion, of course. > Jan. > ---- > > What's this I hear so much about hotlappers not being good > > race drivers? <Snip>

Wrong.... Whether a hotlapper is able to stay on the pavement for a whole GP or not isn't the issue. They practise A LOT so if they can keep concentrated at (for them) a snail's pace they should have no problem finishing anyway. There is also no jealousy or envy because the hotlappers are faster. It is the relentless pursuit of speed that is held against them. The name of the game is racing simulation which means the object should be to recreate the experience to best of your ability, not to acchieve "the perfect lap" by whatever means nescessary. Without exception the really fast times are set using setups and driving techniques, which outside the game's world would lead to catastrophical failure of the car or the driver. The illusion of realism is broken and thus, for me, the feeling of being beaten fair and square (and don't get me started on the humiliating practise of forcing the slower driver to pass, so he can be put in his place again). And for what??? -IMO Wolfgang or Ian or Dave or whoever can beat 99% of people on GSB/VROC without even breaking a sweat let alone resort to hotlapping techniques. Then, why treat a simulation like just another arcade game? Just my opinion, of course. Jan. ----

What follows is, of course, just my humble opinion. "Hotlappers" are drivers who are able to post record lap times. Dedicated hotlappers will do hundreds of laps at the same track, usually in training mode, striving to shave just a few more hundredths of a second off their time. Setups can become quite radical, shifing is done without lifting off the throttle (which would quickly destroy an engine in a real race) and driving style is usually on the absolute ragged edge of control. This does not mean hotlappers are lousy in race situations, where traffic comes into play, and it does not mean they are good in them either. I would guess hotlappers cover the spectrum pretty much the same as any other drivers, some are surely brilliant in races and some may suck. I suspect (and I'm probably gonna get shit for this) that when some drivers see the lap times posted by hotlappers, they realize they are never likely to match them. So, to make themselves feel a little better, they imagine that the hotlapper can only do hotlaps, and not drive well in a real race. I may have been guilty of that myself on occasion. ;o)

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> >The name of the game is racing simulation which means the object should be > >to recreate the experience to best of your ability, not to acchieve "the > >perfect lap" by whatever means nescessary. Without exception the really > fast > >times are set using setups and driving techniques, which outside the game's > >world would lead to catastrophical failure of the car or the driver. The > >illusion of realism is broken and thus, for me, the feeling of being beaten > >fair and square (and don't get me started on the humiliating practise of > >forcing the slower driver to pass, so he can be put in his place again). > Pardon my ignorance, I'm new to this forum .... what are 'hotlappers'? Is it > a safety-be-damned, wide open approach? extra risks taken? Seems they're not > looked on favorably whatever they are :) > jeff

I'm not quite sure I follow you there... What is there to hold against somebody if he's trying to beat a record? Why is that bad? Beating a WR is extreme business and of course requires extreme methods, wouldn't be much of a record if it didn't :). It is not something most people want to do, and it is quite a different thing from normal racing. My original point was that being able to do that does not IMO automatically make you a worse racer. In my experience the guys on top of the charts are _also_ very good race drivers indeed. However, there are many posts that give the impression that "hotlappers" are in some way inferior: good for one lap but hopeless on a long distance. This is simply not true. Of course there are people who are able to do better in qualifying than in a race, and are prone to crash in T1 on VROC, but they are not _really_ fast anyway. Ah... arcade... the magic word :) Ditto. Jussi

I don't think most people have a negative view of hotlappers. Don't let a scarce few posts make you think that. Sure there's a few fast guys who are always on the ragged edge and will do anything to win even if it means shoving you out of the way. But for the most part the fast guys are actually cleaner and more consistent than the slow guys. Which, of course, is NOT to say that the slow guys are inconsiderate. I would say 95% of the time a faster car attempts to pass me on the track, the faster guy seems willing to accept when I have won the corner, and he will try to back off. Then, if he does bump into me he usually at least gives me a convincing apology. Sometimes they'll even pull over and let me repass them. -A >Pardon my ignorance, I'm new to this forum .... what are 'hotlappers'? Is it >a safety-be-damned, wide open approach? extra risks taken? Seems they're not >looked on favorably whatever they are :) >jeff

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>I don't think most people have a negative view of hotlappers. Don't let a >scarce few posts make you think that. Sure there's a few fast guys who are >always on the ragged edge and will do anything to win even if it means >shoving you out of the way. But for the most part the fast guys are >actually cleaner and more consistent than the slow guys. Which, of course, >is NOT to say that the slow guys are inconsiderate. I would say 95% of the >time a faster car attempts to pass me on the track, the faster guy seems >willing to accept when I have won the corner, and he will try to back off. >Then, if he does bump into me he usually at least gives me a convincing >apology. Sometimes they'll even pull over and let me repass them.

Thanks to both you and Doug for your descriptions. I definitely have a better idea about the term now. It's kind of interesting. It sounds like these guys take this sim stuff pretty darn seriously :) Well, I do know a guy who races NASCAR the full 500 miles and can sit there for hours running it. That kind of amazes me... heh heh. jeff

> Interesting idea. Maybe we should be emphasizing total time for a completed > race, instead of one hotlap. That would take into account all of the factors > in a race, many of which are not controlled by the racer, but have to be > dealt with in any race. Yes - presumably this is why the GPL Champions League was run, rather than just relying on the hotlap charts that were used as pre-qualifying! I think the result has shown the three best GPL drivers in the world: Huttu, Woeger and Lake in a more convincing way than the hotlap charts on their own. Which isn't to say that hotlapping isn't important - it has its place in racing in the same way as qualifying is used to set grid positions before a race - but it's the championship itself that shows who is the best driver.

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>> Interesting idea. Maybe we should be emphasizing total time for a completed >> race, instead of one hotlap. That would take into account all of the factors >> in a race, many of which are not controlled by the racer, but have to be >> dealt with in any race. >Yes - presumably this is why the GPL Champions League was run, rather >than just relying on the hotlap charts that were used as pre-qualifying! >I think the result has shown the three best GPL drivers in the world: >Huttu, Woeger and Lake in a more convincing way than the hotlap charts >on their own. >Which isn't to say that hotlapping isn't important - it has its place in >racing in the same way as qualifying is used to set grid positions >before a race - but it's the championship itself that shows who is the >best driver.

Yes, I ask any of these ppl who doubt the hotlappers to download some of the replays of the champs races, and watch them. Yes, they are sprint races (short race, 25-30min), but other forms of motorsport have these kinds of races as well. The ring for me was a fantastic race :) Driving on the edge for 3 laps, doing sub 8min race laps! (using "realistic" ride heights :) it was great fun! I wanna see one of these other guys that complain we can't race, by trying to beat a racetime of just on 24minutes for 3 laps of the ring :) Ian

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> Yes, I ask any of these ppl who doubt the hotlappers to download some > of the replays of the champs races, and watch them. Yes, they are > sprint races (short race, 25-30min), but other forms of motorsport > have these kinds of races as well. > The ring for me was a fantastic race :) Driving on the edge for 3 > laps, doing sub 8min race laps! (using "realistic" ride heights :) > it was great fun! > I wanna see one of these other guys that complain we can't race, by > trying to beat a racetime of just on 24minutes for 3 laps of the ring > :)

Congrats Ian - wish I could drive it that fast (or even stay on the track)! ;-) I think this term "hotlapper" has become a bit misused - my understanding of the term as it was originally used was to describe someone who can turn in some quick laps but who is basically inconsistent and therefore not a good racer. I was like this myself a while back: I downloaded Wolfie's setup for Watkins Glen and did manage to set my fastest time with it, but most of the time I was all over the track and could never finish a race with it, because it was incredibly unstable. Since then I've reverted to using a more stable setup and trying to drive it consistently, but my best lap with the default GPL 1.1 setup is still slower than my old best with the WW setup (although that was with GPL 1.0). So I don't think a "hotlapper" necessarily sets world-beating laps: I think the term refers to someone who focusses on setting one "hot lap" even if they crash out every other lap. In fact if they are setting world-beating laps they probably *are* well in control of the car, as you're unlikely to string together a near-perfect lap if you make mistakes quite often. My best time with the WW setup was 1:05.45 (2 seconds off the WR), but I'm much more pleased with my consistent 1:05.80's with the GPL 1.1 setup, and can race very close to that speed as well (and I also feel much more in control, so I'm confident of improving with practice). So, I reckon a "hotlapper" is someone who's driving a fast setup that they can't really control, rather than someone who sets "hot" laps in world-record terms.

That's got to be because you saw me post in this thread!! LOL ;-)) Jan. ---- <snip>(using "realistic" ride heights :)

Point taken and granted; I have been spanked too many times to deny it. But, is or was there ever any real life hotlap series using current top Championship series motorracing equipment?? -Don't think so. Mika, Eddie, Heinz and the gang (or Geoff, Mark, Dale and the good ol' boys or any driver from any racing series for that matter) don't go about setting one ultimate lap to the exclusion of everything else, even in qualifying. Why?? -Because they need that car the next day, that's why! Hotlapping is just not done in top level road or oval racing and therefore, and again this is solely my opinion, one should use an arcade game for that kind of stuff, not a simulation. To me the fastest guy is the guy who holds the fasted racelap. I would extend that to qualifying if somehow the game wouldn't give you an instant repair by quitting to the pits. In fact that honour probably goes to Wolfgang as well, further proving your point. So there you go. ;-)) Jan. ----

If you download a hotlap replay my tip is to load them into GPL spy girl and watch the laptimes before and after the fastest lap. You can often see 5-10 laptimes or more in the replay. If I see that the other laptimes are very much slower I won't bother with the replay and setup. But if all the other laps are close to the fastest one, thats something to check out!!! I've been looking for a hotlap toplist where all posted hotlaps has to contain a few laps before and after, say something like 5-7 laps as a total. And to get posted on the list the surrounding laps must be within 0,5 second of the fastest, or something like that anyway. These hotlaps would not only deserve studying but worship too :-) And I know that many of today's hottest hotlappers qualify. But some don't. /Magnus T

To me the fastest guy is the guy who holds the fasted racelap. I would extend that to qualifying if somehow the game wouldn't give you an instant repair by quitting to the pits. In fact that honour probably goes to Wolfgang as well, further proving your point. So there you go. ;-)) What did this "Wolfgang" guy do? Did he cheat? Rik Anthrax - - "trust the government?? what are you, some kind of moron?"

Surely the fastest person is the one who can do the fastest race (distance), not one who can stick a 'qualifying' lap in once the fuel load has gone down. I think it would stick in everyones throat if the chap who may finish last, gets the adulation over and above the race winner? Steve

> To me the fastest guy is the guy who holds > the fasted racelap. I would extend that to qualifying if somehow the game > wouldn't give you an instant repair by quitting to the pits. In fact that > honour probably goes to Wolfgang as well, further proving your point. So > there you go. ;-)) Almost but not quite true! Greger Huttu just won the first GPL Champions League, with Wolfgang in second place and Ian Lake third. This has to be the ultimate GPL series, and the hotlap chart has played a big part in its success because it's used as prequalifying for the races. Check out Schubi's site at http://216.13.117.36/~schubi/championsleague/WM.htm if you want to find out who are the world's best GPL drivers.

No, he just goes around GPL tracks fast and came 2nd in that Champions series thingy, I think. Jan. ----

Ian, I couldn't even do TWO laps in that time... <g> Eldred __ Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc If all the world's a stage, where is the audience sitting? remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Jan, you have good points and you are right in that there is no real-life equivalent for hotlapping, but I have no problems with that. This is a sim after all, not the real thing: no computer imitation can be (until the Matrix, of course :). Hotlapping is just a very natural way to compete with a sim, because it is the simplest way to rank a huge number of drivers from around the world. I think hotlapping is a different sport from normal sim-racing, where different rules apply and partly different people take part in. I do agree with you also that the fastest drivers in the world are not necessarily the ones on top of the hotlap charts, but at the moment it sure seems so! ;) But I wasn't going to start defending hotlapping as a valid sport or anything, I was originally just trying to say that the image of a constantly crashing, unreliable hotlapper is wrong. Happy racing, Jussi