Please, get rid of F10 view....

I race GPL.. It is the absolute best SIMULATION ever made..... So why the F10 view.. sure.. it can be good when you are learning tracks or what ever.. but we don't really need it.. I think we need to get rid of it for the next patch (when ever it's release date is)... Why?? Because if you want to go fast.. you need to use it.. :-( If you want realism.. you won't go fast.... This sucks.. if we take it out.. then EVERYONE is definately on a level ground.. I would like to think I can compete against everyone with the most realistic simulation available using realistic settings.. If I wanted to go fast.. I would use F10.. but it just feels wrong.. so consequently I can't.... :-( I'm not saying it is cheating.. but I think most ppl would say we don't really need it.. and without it.. we would be better off ... James Pickard, Melbourne, AUSTRALIA Grand Prix Legends Australian Champion Season 1 (jsut so you know where I"m coming from... :-)

I cannot understand why this issue keeps comming back up and back up and.... It is purely a matter of choice and should be in the game to give those drivers that don't like the narrow and limited track view a choice of driving with another view. Some people do not have powerful systems and have to use the F10 view for the substantial frame rate boost. That in itself is contradictory I think you will find this is a minority opinion, we shall see with later posts That is just tripe, most accomplished drivers can go fast in either view, only the drivers who lose on a regular basis look to lay the blame outside their driving skill, and then accuse everyone of using the F10 view. If Speak for yourself. Whose level ground ? Should we also take out the option to use joysticks, different car setups, any machine that cannot run at a constant 36 fps, anyone with a ping lower than yourself.... can't.... :-( Then practice more with whatever view you feel more comfortable. How could it possible be ? It's in the game ! but I think most ppl would say we don't Well that remains to be seen And for the record I use both views in training and on line, and most of my PB's were set in the***pit view. No disrespect to you James, only my opinion on yours :) Nige Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Very strange, in every other racing-sim I find this helicopter-view undrivable, but in GPL it is indeed much easier than the normal inside-cockpit view. How is this possible? Alex

Where I"m coming from... After playing GPL ever since it came out.. and even the demo... I would consider myself to be quite fast... But.. I have never been able to match the times of the best drivers.. no matter what I did.. using there setups.. everything.. I couldn't even get within a second.. then I found out what the difference was.. They are awesome drivers.. but they also use F10.. once you get to a certain stage you can't go any faster.. I'm there now.. and even so.. I am still about 1 second slower than the top guys at Monza (I do 27.8's PB.. WR are high 26s?? ) I couldn't work it out... Basically .. what I'm saying is that it would make the game even more realistic (is that possible? :-) if we got rid of it.. for ppl like me, who just don't like F10 view.. and are a bit sick of not being on a level playing field (self imposed I admit) would make the sim more enjoyable I guess I'm just wingeing because after 6 months of trying to match the top times.. I fianlly found out what the difference was.. and now it just makes online racing a bit.. well.. annoying :-) James (my 2 cents.. or should that be 5 bucks?? :-)

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> Very strange, in every other racing-sim I find this helicopter-view > undrivable, but in GPL it is indeed much easier than the normal > inside-cockpit view. How is this possible? > Alex > > I race GPL.. It is the absolute best SIMULATION ever made..... > > So why the F10 view.. sure.. it can be good when you are learning

tracks

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> > or what ever.. but we don't really need it.. > > I think we need to get rid of it for the next patch (when ever it's > release > > date is)... > > Why?? Because if you want to go fast.. you need to use it..

If > > you want realism.. you won't go fast.... > > This sucks.. if we take it out.. then EVERYONE is definately on a level > > ground.. > > I would like to think I can compete against everyone with the most > realistic > > simulation available using realistic settings.. If I wanted to go fast.. > I > > would use F10.. but it just feels wrong.. so consequently I can't.... :-(

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> > I'm not saying it is cheating.. but I think most ppl would say we don't > > really need it.. and without it.. we would be better off ... > > James Pickard, > > Melbourne, > > AUSTRALIA > > Grand Prix Legends Australian Champion Season 1 > > (jsut so you know where I"m coming from... :-)

It isn't easier. Track knowledge is everything in GPL.You need to know AND use every inch of the track surface to go fast in GPL. Once you know the track really well the in-car view is in fact much easier to drive because you get more feedback about your car setup. And wheelspin can be easily recognised by the sound when turning the volume up. IMHO F10 gives only an advantage to those that don't know every inch of the track. One could argue that driving in-car is cheating compared to those that don't have the machine to run 36 fps in-car or don't have time to practice for hours on a given track. I've told this before in GSB chat, but I drive strictly in-car -not because I think I'm faster but because I think it's much more fun. I don't care about a few 10ths, I want to have fun in exciting races, and I want to feel the sensation of speed. To fully enjoy this aspect of GPL - driving the***pit view is a must. The arcade view however, is a perfectly valid option that should be included in GPL and in every future sim.

I think its easier to drive with F10 view cause, you dont have head panning (not sure if that is the right word ...) i think with that 3D moving***pit, actually you loose a bit of 'feeling' ... is there any way to get a fixed onboard view ? something like FastenSeatBelts=1 .... :) McKafre De La Rosa Pickard escribi en mensaje ...

So, can you match the WR using the F10 view? Ben

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>Where I"m coming from... >After playing GPL ever since it came out.. and even the demo... I would >consider myself to be quite fast... >But.. I have never been able to match the times of the best drivers.. no >matter what I did.. using there setups.. everything.. I couldn't even get >within a second.. then I found out what the difference was.. >They are awesome drivers.. but they also use F10.. once you get to a >certain stage you can't go any faster.. I'm there now.. and even so.. I >am still about 1 second slower than the top guys at Monza (I do 27.8's PB.. >WR are high 26s?? ) I couldn't work it out... >Basically .. what I'm saying is that it would make the game even more >realistic (is that possible? :-) if we got rid of it.. for ppl like me, >who just don't like F10 view.. and are a bit sick of not being on a level >playing field (self imposed I admit) would make the sim more enjoyable >I guess I'm just wingeing because after 6 months of trying to match the top >times.. I fianlly found out what the difference was.. and now it just

makes

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>online racing a bit.. well.. annoying :-) >James >(my 2 cents.. or should that be 5 bucks?? :-) >> Very strange, in every other racing-sim I find this helicopter-view >> undrivable, but in GPL it is indeed much easier than the normal >> inside-cockpit view. How is this possible? >> Alex >> > I race GPL.. It is the absolute best SIMULATION ever made..... >> > So why the F10 view.. sure.. it can be good when you are learning >tracks >> > or what ever.. but we don't really need it.. >> > I think we need to get rid of it for the next patch (when ever it's >> release >> > date is)... >> > Why?? Because if you want to go fast.. you need to use it.. > If >> > you want realism.. you won't go fast.... >> > This sucks.. if we take it out.. then EVERYONE is definately on a >level >> > ground.. >> > I would like to think I can compete against everyone with the most >> realistic >> > simulation available using realistic settings.. If I wanted to go >fast.. >> I >> > would use F10.. but it just feels wrong.. so consequently I can't.... >:-( >> > I'm not saying it is cheating.. but I think most ppl would say we

don't

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>> > really need it.. and without it.. we would be better off ... >> > James Pickard, >> > Melbourne, >> > AUSTRALIA >> > Grand Prix Legends Australian Champion Season 1 >> > (jsut so you know where I"m coming from... :-)

:> Very strange, in every other racing-sim I find this helicopter-view :> undrivable, but in GPL it is indeed much easier than the normal :> inside-cockpit view. How is this possible? : It isn't easier. Track knowledge is everything in GPL.You need to know AND : use every inch of the track surface to go fast in GPL. Once you know the : track really well the in-car view is in fact much easier to drive because : you get more feedback about your car setup. And wheelspin can be easily : recognised by the sound when turning the volume up. IMHO F10 gives only an : advantage to those that don't know every inch of the track. The F10 view gives more information. You can see the front and back of the car and (IIRC) all the speeds. Surely, in theory this gives you more information. I drive with the in-car view. -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York. www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

Biggest problem with F10 view is, you have no mirrors!. this might not be to bad in GPL because cars aren't bunched up alot. But in Nascar Guy relie on the spotters because they have no idea whatsw going on behind them. Put every one in the cars make it real. In the upcoming Nascar3 everyone is e***d about the tire smoke. But those F10 drivers may as well not have it. Doubt it will cause a view problem 30 feet in the air -- Kevin Anderson ICQ # 6769389

So you reckon that you can't get within a second just because you drive in-car, what rubbish. Some good drivers such as Wolfgang Woeger use F10 but a lot use in-car view. I can do 1.27.3 at Monza using in car view and many can go quicker than that in-car. Its just set-ups in my view and finding one that you feel comfortable with. You need to try harder sir.... Andy

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> Where I"m coming from... > After playing GPL ever since it came out.. and even the demo... I would > consider myself to be quite fast... > But.. I have never been able to match the times of the best drivers.. no > matter what I did.. using there setups.. everything.. I couldn't even

get > within a second.. then I found out what the difference was.. > They are awesome drivers.. but they also use F10.. once you get to a > certain stage you can't go any faster.. I'm there now.. and even so.. I > am still about 1 second slower than the top guys at Monza (I do 27.8's PB.. > WR are high 26s?? ) I couldn't work it out... > Basically .. what I'm saying is that it would make the game even more > realistic (is that possible? :-) if we got rid of it.. for ppl like me, > who just don't like F10 view.. and are a bit sick of not being on a level > playing field (self imposed I admit) would make the sim more enjoyable > I guess I'm just wingeing because after 6 months of trying to match the top > times.. I fianlly found out what the difference was.. and now it just makes

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> online racing a bit.. well.. annoying :-) > James > (my 2 cents.. or should that be 5 bucks?? :-) > > Very strange, in every other racing-sim I find this helicopter-view > > undrivable, but in GPL it is indeed much easier than the normal > > inside-cockpit view. How is this possible? > > Alex > > > I race GPL.. It is the absolute best SIMULATION ever made..... > > > So why the F10 view.. sure.. it can be good when you are learning > tracks > > > or what ever.. but we don't really need it.. > > > I think we need to get rid of it for the next patch (when ever it's > > release > > > date is)... > > > Why?? Because if you want to go fast.. you need to use it.. > If > > > you want realism.. you won't go fast.... > > > This sucks.. if we take it out.. then EVERYONE is definately on a > level > > > ground.. > > > I would like to think I can compete against everyone with the most > > realistic > > > simulation available using realistic settings.. If I wanted to go > fast.. > > I > > > would use F10.. but it just feels wrong.. so consequently I can't.... > :-( > > > I'm not saying it is cheating.. but I think most ppl would say we

don't

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> > > really need it.. and without it.. we would be better off ... > > > James Pickard, > > > Melbourne, > > > AUSTRALIA > > > Grand Prix Legends Australian Champion Season 1 > > > (jsut so you know where I"m coming from... :-)

Well said..i totally agree with you...........did you know that most of the fast lap world records are done in F10....disgracefull...its a simulation.

Wow, you didn't site one real reason why they should remove it other than because *you* don't feel competitive against someone that uses it. For many of us, it makes the *game* driveable and if it weren't for the existance of "arcade" mode, many more would probably have abandoned the *game* as unplayable. As for being competitive, that's a relative term. If you're only interested in turning the world's fastest time in the *game*. If that's your idea of fun, so be it, but IMHO, one-lap wonders ain't shit. I siad it when SVGA was around, and I stick by that claim - one lap doesn't win a race. If you can keep the car on the gray part and manage not to hit anything or anyone, you're doing good. If you're fast too, even better. I use "chase" mode when driving in GPL, and it certainly doesn't make me the fastest (ask anyone in IGPS about that), but it does allow me to keep up. It's a crutch, sure, but I don't really give a flyin' f*ck what anyone else thinks about it because it doesn't keep them from using the in-car view if they so choose. -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html Barbarian Diecast Collector (370+ cars and counting) http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html Internet Grand Prix Series Season 2 http://www.paddedwall.org/igps2/igps2.html North American Stockcar Racing Online Competition http://www.paddedwall.org/nasroc1/nasroc1.html Super X Philes http://members.home.net/kap/superx/superx.html If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

>But.. I have never been able to match the times of the best drivers.. no >matter what I did.. using there setups.. everything.. I couldn't even get >within a second.. then I found out what the difference was.. Oh boy, is this funny! ***ing about the F10 view while admitting you're using unrealistic setups.... Remco

I have never used the rear view, because it doesn't feel right. Why? Because this view is unrealistic, of course. To me, a very important aspect of GPL is the simulation of the driving technique, on-track behaviour (but if you have a look at the common vroc races, you'll see that there is some divergence on this ;-) and general atmosphere. This strive for authenticism is to me more important than being fast, let alone being the fastest in the world. I try to go as fast as I can, yes, but my feelings are more into the atmosphere, or role-playing, if you get my meaning. If the fastest drivers in the world use F10, just let them. They're into this game with quite different goals than you and me. Hotlapping is pointless from any kind of viewpoint in racing. Let them go on with their business. It has become well known that F10 is a faster way of racing, and if a person pursues his goal of becoming the fastest driver in the world to the extent that authenticity is set aside, then he has a problem. I strive for authenticity to the extent that I try to be fast with a driving technique as close as possible to the thing they used back in -67. Neutral car, driving in-line as much as possible, even during entry and exit of a turns... Driving with your GPL car sideways in every turn is a bit vulgar, in my extremely humble opinion (IMEHO)... ;-) It's a pity that driving with style never can be a part of the game... ---Asgeir---

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> I race GPL.. It is the absolute best SIMULATION ever made..... > So why the F10 view.. sure.. it can be good when you are learning tracks > or what ever.. but we don't really need it.. > I think we need to get rid of it for the next patch (when ever it's release > date is)... > Why?? Because if you want to go fast.. you need to use it.. :-( If > you want realism.. you won't go fast.... > This sucks.. if we take it out.. then EVERYONE is definately on a level > ground.. > I would like to think I can compete against everyone with the most realistic > simulation available using realistic settings.. If I wanted to go fast.. I > would use F10.. but it just feels wrong.. so consequently I can't.... :-( > I'm not saying it is cheating.. but I think most ppl would say we don't > really need it.. and without it.. we would be better off ... > James Pickard, > Melbourne, > AUSTRALIA > Grand Prix Legends Australian Champion Season 1 > (jsut so you know where I"m coming from... :-)

I think knowing the track is very important. The only track i know very well is Monza and i am finally starting to find that in car view doesnt hinder me. I think with the next patch, the roll bar view should be incorporated into the available driving view selections so you have simulation view / aracade view / and the "intermediate" roll bar view. As for what is more "true to life", well who is to say...does the in car view provide the level of feedback and spatial perception you get from a real automobile around you... perhaps the chase view provides the appropriate compensation for the things we miss out on. steve c

I made the mistake recently of thinking the***pit DIDN'T move after watching some replays. Oddly, when you drive the***pit moves around while the front wheels and scenery remain stable in the up-down axis. But hit F2 and watch from the***pit view and the tub becomes locked while the wheels and scenery move up and down instead. There's no head panning either way, thank goodness. For flight simmers, it's as if your view is "padlocked" to the horizon while driving and to the tub when in replay mode. The relationship between the***pit, wheels and scenery is basically the same either way, so you still get the same feedback on car position. I wonder why it differs in replay; either way there are still no***pit 3D lighting effects. As for F10 being an advantage, it just gives a better forward view, putting less importance on memorizing the tracks. I usually go as quick or quicker in-car with enough practice, and it's much more enjoyable for me that way anyway. I really don't care what view people use, but it seems Papy could have allowed for a "forced view" .ini line option with online races, ala GP500. They already force some client settings, so it seems like an easy add-on, and it would let people who do care host or join races with in-car view only. That would end the argument. Cheers, Steve B. > I think its easier to drive with F10 view cause, you dont have head panning > (not sure > if that is the right word ...) > i think with that 3D moving***pit, actually you loose a bit of 'feeling'

I think the thing is having some drivers in a league driving f10 and others not dirtties up the water. You're not comparing apples with apples. To each his own is fair enough when they're on their own. But in a comp. one would like to feel everyone's at the same advantage / disadvantage. I can understand completely that some would like to know they are racing others in an equal way. I can't see any problem with this concept at all. All GPL had to do was have an idicator that lets everyone know how the driver was / is driving. It would be simple to have a league rule that says everyone should be F10 or in the***pit. But unless GPL has an indicator it may be a token rule. Or better yet - have it as a server option, like all the other server options, that drivers are forced to use the driving situation a league requires. Like lots of others have said here, F10 does give quite an advantge in some ways. It simple would have been nice if GPL was written to, or could be made to, let us all compare apples with apples. Phillip McNelley

>Like lots of others have said here, F10 does give quite an advantge in >some ways. It simple would have been nice if GPL was written to, or >could be made to, let us all compare apples with apples. Yeah....I did a 1:24:8 at Monza and a 6:58:xx at the Ring with chase view. On the Glen you really have the advantage of the chase view, I did a 59:99 there! But I feel so ashamed about using the chase view, that I wouldn't dare to send in these hotlaps..... <sigh> Remco

says... That's a crock of shit. In two seasons of IGPS (29 races total), I won four events, and only because I happened to be in the right place at the right time. EVERY other winner in those seasons was using the in-car view. I suspect that out of 50 drivers, only two or three of us used the chase view, but I would have to poll everybody that raced to make sure. As far as non-league racing, I almost NEVER win. So how is my driving any better or worse than someone using in-car mode? You people that complain about this are nothing but whiners and crybabies. Go back to your Playstations...

I use the***pit view only (except to check exit speed if I've come out of a corner well :) ) but have no objections at all to others using the F10 view, whatever they feel comfortable with. I can be relatively competitive and stay on track for a whole race every now and again :) using the***pit view, I also have a friend who is high in the records for hotlaps who also drives in***pit view. Therefore IMO there is very little difference to the times achievable in either view, just what is preferable to the individual driver. -- Ian Parker UKGPL League http://www.btinternet.com/~ukgpl/index.html [address restored] > >I race GPL. It is the absolute best SIMULATION ever made. > >So why the F10 view. sure - it can be good when you > >are learning tracks or what ever. but we don't really > >need it. > >I think we need to get rid of it for the next patch > >(when ever it's release date is). > >Why? Because if you want to go fast, you need to use > >it. If you want realism, you won't go fast. > >This sucks. if we take it out, then EVERYONE is > >definately on a level ground. > >I would like to think I can compete against everyone > >with the most realistic simulation available using > >realistic settings. If I wanted to go fast, I would > >use F10 but it just feels wrong, so consequently I > >can't. > >I'm not saying it is cheating, but I think most ppl > >would say we don't really need it, and without it, > >we would be better off. > Wow, you didn't site one real reason why they should remove it other than > because *you* don't feel competitive against someone that uses it. For > many of us, it makes the *game* driveable and if it weren't for the > existance of "arcade" mode, many more would probably have abandoned the > *game* as unplayable. > As for being competitive, that's a relative term. If you're only > interested in turning the world's fastest time in the *game*. If that's > your idea of fun, so be it, but IMHO, one-lap wonders ain't shit. I siad > it when SVGA was around, and I stick by that claim - one lap doesn't win > a race. If you can keep the car on the gray part and manage not to hit > anything or anyone, you're doing good. If you're fast too, even better. > I use "chase" mode when driving in GPL, and it certainly doesn't make me > the fastest (ask anyone in IGPS about that), but it does allow me to keep > up. It's a crutch, sure, but I don't really give a flyin' f*ck what > anyone else thinks about it because it doesn't keep them from using the > in-car view if they so choose. > -- > ========================================================= > Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) > http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html > Barbarian Diecast Collector (370+ cars and counting) > http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html > Internet Grand Prix Series Season 2 > http://www.paddedwall.org/igps2/igps2.html > North American Stockcar Racing Online Competition > http://www.paddedwall.org/nasroc1/nasroc1.html > Super X Philes > http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast > If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown > above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. > =========================================================

: AMEN! Everytime I hear someone say they don't feel the sense of speed : in GPL, I know they must be running in arcade view. Even in real life : there isn't a sense of speed driving RC cars, why would a sim be any : different? I'm new to GPL, and I have to admit the speed *scares* me at times. There is definitely a sense of speed. A quick look left or right on the straightaways will double the e***ment. Stephen (and I also find the***pit view *easier* to drive from, but I'm not fast anyway)

Well I need it for the start of the race to cover for the blind spots in gpl. At the start I never really have any time to look sideways, even if I did, I still wouldn't be able to see the incoming car as it would be sort of half-way behind me. I have done a lot of laps with the f10 view to find out if I was any faster but it turns out I tend to "throw" the car too much into high speed turns, therefore, I am actually slower with the F10 view as I feel you get less visual feedback from the car. Some races I do half of the first lap with the F10 view, specially on-line. I wouldn't see a need to get rid of it in a upcoming patch since you can simply choose not to use. I think that in fact they should introduce more views in gpl rather than remove one of two current possible views. I would rather have too many views, than too few. Cheers me deers

I always drive with the in-car view but I find that F10 is sometimes very useful in the corners if you're unsure whether there is someone in your blind spot. The "look left-right" feature won't cover all of your blind spot. As I'm now much more comfortable with online racing and keeping track of car positions in the heat of battle, I hardly use it at all now. Unless I'm sure I just assume that someone is there rather than use F10 all the time. I wouldn't mind not using F10 at all as long as everyone else was in the same boat (or car).

And its not even close to being a perfect simulation either....so your point is what? > Well said..i totally agree with you...........did you know that most of the > fast lap world records are done in F10....disgracefull...its a simulation. > > I race GPL.. It is the absolute best SIMULATION ever made..... > > So why the F10 view.. sure.. it can be good when you are learning tracks

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> > or what ever.. but we don't really need it.. > > I think we need to get rid of it for the next patch (when ever it's > release > > date is)... > > Why?? Because if you want to go fast.. you need to use it..

If > > you want realism.. you won't go fast.... > > This sucks.. if we take it out.. then EVERYONE is definately on a level > > ground.. > > I would like to think I can compete against everyone with the most > realistic > > simulation available using realistic settings.. If I wanted to go fast.. > I > > would use F10.. but it just feels wrong.. so consequently I can't.... :-(

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> > I'm not saying it is cheating.. but I think most ppl would say we don't > > really need it.. and without it.. we would be better off ... > > James Pickard, > > Melbourne, > > AUSTRALIA > > Grand Prix Legends Australian Champion Season 1 > > (jsut so you know where I"m coming from... :-)

John, For once I completely agree with you. :)

Chris, you're starting to scare me dude. :-)

Who are we talking about here? are you talking about fast GPL Hot Lappers in VROC pickup races or the truly FAST GPL drivers who drive in leagues and can run lap after lap of clean fast laps without mistakes? I find it hard to believe that the F-10 view would be used by the really fast GPL drivers, mostly because I don't think it would give any true advantage to the really fast drivers, maybe it helps some people to get a handle on GPL, but the really fast drivers would be hindered by not having the in-car feel. Curious if any really really fast GPL drivers would actually resort to F-10 view. Personally, GPL is not only about being fast, but about "experiencing" a simulation of what driving a '67 F1 race car would be like, I would never even consider driving from F-10 view, no matter how many tenths it would gain me, because it would ruin my suspension of disbelief, if I wanted to drive from unrealistic viewpoints I would be driving console arcade racers not GPL. Seeyas on the track. --John (Joao) Silva

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>But.. I have never been able to match the times of the best drivers.. no >matter what I did.. using there setups.. everything.. I couldn't even get >within a second.. then I found out what the difference was.. >They are awesome drivers.. but they also use F10.. once you get to a >certain stage you can't go any faster.. I'm there now.. and even so.. I >am still about 1 second slower than the top guys at Monza (I do 27.8's PB.. >WR are high 26s?? ) I couldn't work it out...

> So why the F10 view.. sure.. it can be good when you > are learning tracks or what ever.. but we don't really > need it.. > I think we need to get rid of it for the next patch (when > ever it's release date is)... Whatever happened to the 'Force***pit View As Boss' option? For the life of me I seem to recall seeing this some where in the game or an .ini file but I can't seem to locate it now (except as a string in the EXE). Randy? Anyone? - George

F10 is really good at the start, it helps you to avoid some accidents. After that, the in car view is fine. I find I go at the same speed in car or chase view. In car has a better sensation of speed IMO, but us poor TNT/OpenGL users have to put up with a big frame rate hit - maybe 30% or so even with mirror refresh turned way down. Here's the thing: just because you don't like chase view, why do you think everyone else should be just like you? Keith.

Scared the ***out of me John. :)

What ? Having a league where everyone drives the same way with the same advantage / disadvantage is shit ? Your sense of fair play is rather striking to say the least. No one is saying that just because you use F10 you are automatically going to be fast. Some people will never be fast. As in real life, you could give all the advantages you like to some and they'll still be slow or only medium fast at best. The point is, that in any kind of competition, ***-band shooting, fly squatting, or sim racing, there is an inherent fairness when everyone is at the same baseline. There is also an inherent unfairness when different people are on different baselines. Your or mine or anyone's particular talents and abilities are completely beside the point. If we were in a running race and some were on foot and some were on roller skates it doesn't make it fair just because the foot runners win anyway. That would just mean that we're so bad at it we can't even win with an advantage. What makes it fair is that everyone is at the same advantage / disadvantage state. I suspect that those who argue in favour of "equal baseline" racing simply have a certain idea about what's fair. I have never owned a Playstation, but even if I did, are you suggesting that owning a Playstation in an automatic indication of a person's inability to access the fairness of a given situation ? The term "whingeing" perhaps far better applies to those who react in aghast and with insults at the mere suggestion that they ought to compete with others in an equal way. That certainly sounds more like whingeing to me. In any respect ... hope you manage to get some more wins under the belt. Best Regards Phillip McNelley

I'd like to see these regardless of how they were done. Send to me if you care to. Why not put them up but make them as F10 hotlaps. You'd be doing the GPL community a service by showing everyone just how big an advantage this can be to some drivers. Regards Phillip McNelley

Noone is suggesting that everyone ought to like the same things. All that's being suggested is that it would be good if we had a way of competing on stricly equal tearms. Have F10 races if that's what you like. Have***pit racers if that's what you like. But if you're in a competition with others where the majority feels, or even if just the host feels, everone ought to be driving the same way, whichever way that is, then it would be good if GPL provided for this. Regards Phillip McNelley

No. Maybe one or two use the F10 view when hotlapping but others use the In-car view. I've always used In-car and always will. My best hotlap at Monza is 1:26.99 and I did a 1:27.03 in online practise. Advice: Keep practising. :) -- Greger Huttu

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>>Like lots of others have said here, F10 does give quite an advantge in >>some ways. It simple would have been nice if GPL was written to, or >>could be made to, let us all compare apples with apples. >Yeah....I did a 1:24:8 at Monza and a 6:58:xx at the Ring with chase >view. On the Glen you really have the advantage of the chase view, >I did a 59:99 there! But I feel so ashamed about using the chase view, >that I wouldn't dare to send in these hotlaps..... ><sigh>

Wow, you are faster than I had thought, Remco. :) -- Greger Huttu

After reading all the posts here and on other forums regarding this, it seems to me like a lot of fuss over nothing. In any given sport people will always complain about a perceived advantage if that person is not winning against another who is using something different. Where as in reality that person should be looking at his own performance with the given tools and not looking elsewhere. The main reason some people are faster than others in GPL is plain and simple, they are better drivers, either through natural ability or hours and hours of practise. Fast drivers are fast drivers which ever view they use. I have only been racing on line for around a week, but I am amazed at how few people can actually finish a race without spinning or crashing. More time should be spent on developing driving skills than worrying and complaining about who uses what view and laying the blame elsewhere when they get beaten. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

>>They are awesome drivers.. but they also use F10.. once you get to a >>certain stage you can't go any faster.. I'm there now.. and even so.. I >>am still about 1 second slower than the top guys at Monza (I do 27.8's PB..

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>>WR are high 26s?? ) I couldn't work it out... >No. Maybe one or two use the F10 view when hotlapping but others use >the In-car view. I've always used In-car and always will. My best >hotlap at Monza is 1:26.99 and I did a 1:27.03 in online practise. >Advice: Keep practising. :)

This post by the World Champion pretty much sums it up how much advantage F10 view gives, doesn't it? :) I agree, I was shocked at first when I learned some of the fastest guys used F10 view. "This ain't no friggin' arcade game!" I thought. But, then I learned that they started using F10 view for frame rate issues only, and got used to it. I really don't think F10 gives you any advantage in speed. "You can see farther up the road" you say? Sure, but to be a fast GPL driver you already know the tracks like the palm of your hand anyway. Some say the can "feel" the car better when using F10 view? This is a matter of taste and perception. I tried F10 and couldn't feel the car at all. F10 drivers can see the surrounding of their car but don't have working mirrors. A trade off. Let everybody use whatever they like, and, as Greger put it, keep practicing :) Hena Oh, my PB at Monza is 1:27.23 using incar view ...

just enjoy the sim fellas. : ) Hans

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>>Yeah....I did a 1:24:8 at Monza and a 6:58:xx at the Ring with chase >>view. On the Glen you really have the advantage of the chase view, >>I did a 59:99 there! But I feel so ashamed about using the chase view, >>that I wouldn't dare to send in these hotlaps..... >I'd like to see these regardless of how they were done. Send to me if >you care to. >Why not put them up but make them as F10 hotlaps. You'd be doing the >GPL community a service by showing everyone just how big an advantage >this can be to some drivers.

Hmmm, heck. I was really hoping that everyone would say I'm a lyer, and then they take me seriously......didn't I exaggerate enough? What I wanted to know from the people who claim chaseview has an advantage, is the amount of time you'll gain with it....seems that they believe my times are possible with chaseview......hmmmm, maybe I'll make the switch.......<g> Remco

Anyone else notice how Pickard drops these dot-laden bombs and then ***s off to sit back and laugh? > just enjoy the sim fellas. : ) > Hans

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>>I've always used In-car and always will. >This post by the World Champion pretty much sums it up how much advantage >F10 view gives, doesn't it? :) >I agree, I was shocked at first when I learned some of the fastest guys used >F10 view. "This ain't no friggin' arcade game!" I thought. But, then I >learned that they started using F10 view for frame rate issues only, and got >used to it. >I really don't think F10 gives you any advantage in speed. "You can see >farther up the road" you say? Sure, but to be a fast GPL driver you already >know the tracks like the palm of your hand anyway. Some say the can "feel" >the car better when using F10 view? This is a matter of taste and >perception. I tried F10 and couldn't feel the car at all. >F10 drivers can see the surrounding of their car but don't have working >mirrors. A trade off. >Hena

I can't tell you all how relieved I am to hear from a couple of the best that they don't use F10. If the wonderful and challenging driving experience that GPL offers could actually be done faster with F10 it would really degraded the whole thing for me. And I must admit that Wolfgang Woegers joystick times are a bit disturbing. I would be very curious to see the view used included in the info for hotlaps at: http://216.13.117.36/~schubi/fastlaps.htm -- Don Scurlock Vancouver,B.C.

I've always used the in car view but this post prompted me to try the roll bar view last night, WOW its exelant, the biggest problem I've always had is being aware of exactly were the edge of the track is in relation to my wheels. with the roll bar view I can see exactly where the edge is and can use more of the track, the only problems are no mirrors, not much you can do about this for racing, it doesn't matter for hot lapping, and the pit board doesn't come up at the end of laps, anyone got any ideas on how to fix this. -- Mark London UK Yamaha TRX850

Yes, you are fast :) Just not as fast as some others Completely incorect! I drive in-car all the time, and can still kick greger and wolfi's arse (sometimes :o) James, I heard that you asked one of the guys at the Brisbane Lan recently weather I was using F10? Where u suprised when they said I wasn't, yet I was still doing fast times? It must***you off even more to find out that 2 of the top 3 drivers in the world use in-car view then? ;) Ian Lake

On Tue, 14 Sep 1999 15:35:29 +0300, "Hena Hakkanen"

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>>No. Maybe one or two use the F10 view when hotlapping but others use >>the In-car view. I've always used In-car and always will. My best >>hotlap at Monza is 1:26.99 and I did a 1:27.03 in online practise. >>Advice: Keep practising. :) >This post by the World Champion pretty much sums it up how much advantage >F10 view gives, doesn't it? :) >I really don't think F10 gives you any advantage in speed. "You can see >farther up the road" you say? Sure, but to be a fast GPL driver you already >know the tracks like the palm of your hand anyway. Some say the can "feel" >the car better when using F10 view? This is a matter of taste and >perception. I tried F10 and couldn't feel the car at all. >F10 drivers can see the surrounding of their car but don't have working >mirrors. A trade off.

True. I tried the F10 view when the game was released and it felt so awful that I switched right back to in-car. As you said, some may feel that it gives a better wheel but for me the in-car view wins hands down. Some have gotten used to in-car and some to F10 view.. there's no advantage gained. End of discussion. :) -- Greger Huttu

Hmm, I was just reading about an aussie karting that has gone to europe to race in the world championships... seems they use a different method of qualification... 2 laps only per driver... And what's with this whole superpole idea in superbikes... that sounds alot like hotlapping too... :) Ian

Yes, but then they DO have to race. And a lot of folks think that a race online is the same thing as a hotlap competition. Its not.

Not at all. You want full fair "play" in your terms, you'd run a league with all the same marquee and with a standard setup with no alterations allowed,***pit view/f10 view only, etc. Bah. Its not that much of a different "baseline". There are advantages and disadvantages to both views. And there are other more important factors that play into someone being fast, competitive, etc. than view. Yeah, and we aren't talking about foot versus roller blade racing. Quit exaggerating the whole topic. And you've yet to come up with a compelling reason that there is any benefit or special and utterly devastatingly [to exaggerate the whole topic] advantage to using the F10 view to the***pit view. And oh, btw, when talking about online racing or hotlapping....such things as bandwidth, latency, processor speeds, harddrive speeds, video cards, etc. have a much far ranging effect on the apple-to-apple comparison than the "view" someone chooses to use. Might as well, if you are going to demand everyone race in the same view, start demanding everyone have exactly the same system, same connections, etc.

I hear Ferrari have lodged a protest against Fretzen's win at Monza; seems Jordan's developed an F10-view. Hill says it's TOO MUCH, and is quitting - again. :-) Steve B.

What you refer to is just another form of "checkbook racing", something that has been a part of motorsports for ages. Having multiple distinct views of the world, as far as I know, has never been a part of motorsports. I see nothing wrong with objecting to the F10 view on those grounds. Whether or not one can object to it on the grounds of a perceived advantage I have yet to be convinced of one way or the other. As an experiment I think I will go to the extreme and run some races in what I consider to be the most arcade view of them all - the Blimp view. Having mastered the Speedvision Grand Prix: http://irace.speedvision.com/fun&game/streetrace/streetrace.cfm I think I should go quite fast :-) - George

well i have gotten a kick outof reading them all :-), at least we have a sim that we all feel passionate about!! I don't think Mika is the best driver in the world, but he has superior equipment and the skills to exploit it, i think he is faster than his teamie, but i'm not even sure about that (team orders maybe), so i guess what i am trying to say is , do whatever you can do with the tools your given to be the fastest YOU can be, if you are focused on others then you are neglecting your own program. I drive in-car as a preference, even if there was evidence of f10 being faster i would still drive in the car, this is an Opinion, in general not a reply or rebuttle to any previous post. Happy Motoring !! Jeff Eiland (Viman)

Gday Ian, talking about that we are having a LAN GPL day on Oct 2nd. We will be having some qualifying sessions where it is one flying lap each person, whilst the rest watch. A bit like Superpole or the Top Ten shootout at Bathurst. Should make for some interesting racing I reckon.

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> >Hotlapping is pointless from any kind of viewpoint in racing. Let them go on > >with their business. > Hmm, I was just reading about an aussie karting that has gone to > europe to race in the world championships... seems they use a > different method of qualification... 2 laps only per driver... > And what's with this whole superpole idea in superbikes... that sounds > alot like hotlapping too... > :) > Ian

-- Todd Norbury Norbury Technologies

You know, I'm going to have to agree here. I met up with Wolfgang at Zandvoort. The way he pulled away, I knew he had some sort of edge. Afterwards I learned he uses F10. That pretty much explains the 7 seconds. I feel much better now... :-) (it;s a joke Pickard.) :-) -- Mark Jeangerard www.soundchaserweb.com New Mexico USA

hi all I have to say that sarcasm aside, there are so many times when you go to an arcade and see all these drivers playing daytona and scud race and looking smuck while getting really good lap times (I tell you that if these arcade simulators had windows then I'd say that their arms would be*** out of it ;-P). Then you see them all using the overhead view. It's so much easier to place your car on the circuit and slide the car with the computer showing the yaw angle of the car to help you from preventing to going into oversteer and spinning. I have played a lot of ICR2 and GP2 and admit to not yet experiencing GPL - at least not until my AMD K6 200 gets an update along with a 3d card ;-) but I have never tried to learn a track on any racing games using aerial view (which is not available on those games (only during replays) but is available in the arcade simulators - which Scud race to me is the best). This gives me much more enjoyment and makes driving realism more pure. And I am in no way a fast driver at the moment. To me any driving using an aerial view is a bit like playing DOOM and the like with full map - it's just too easy and there is no challenge with the learning curve. I believe that for learning the track, the best way is to follow a computer car for a few laps. That way you will know the best line and if you start from the back of the field, can slowly increase your speed as you get the hang of the track and handling of your car. Missing out on this learning part to me is missing out a lot on playing the game. Anyway there are usually some assistance built in games for track learning with skid marks, flag markers and in the case of GP2 even outlining of the best line! I guess those who refuse to use the f10 view can suggest that they race only with those not using f10. My two bits worth. And sincere apologies if this is repetitive as I missed out on a lot of this thread. Cheers. >You know, I'm going to have to agree here. I met up with Wolfgang at >Zandvoort. The way he pulled away, I knew he had some sort of edge. >Afterwards I learned he uses F10. That pretty much explains the 7 seconds. I

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>feel much better now... >:-) (it;s a joke Pickard.) :-) >-- >Mark Jeangerard >www.soundchaserweb.com >New Mexico USA >> I race GPL.. It is the absolute best SIMULATION ever made..... >> So why the F10 view.. sure.. it can be good when you are learning

tracks

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>> or what ever.. but we don't really need it.. >> I think we need to get rid of it for the next patch (when ever it's >release >> date is)... >> Why?? Because if you want to go fast.. you need to use it..

If >> you want realism.. you won't go fast.... >> This sucks.. if we take it out.. then EVERYONE is definately on a level

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>> ground.. >> I would like to think I can compete against everyone with the most >realistic >> simulation available using realistic settings.. If I wanted to go fast.. >I >> would use F10.. but it just feels wrong.. so consequently I can't....

:-(

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>> I'm not saying it is cheating.. but I think most ppl would say we don't >> really need it.. and without it.. we would be better off ... >> James Pickard, >> Melbourne, >> AUSTRALIA >> Grand Prix Legends Australian Champion Season 1 >> (jsut so you know where I"m coming from... :-)

>Not at all. You want full fair "play" in your terms, you'd run a league >with all the same marquee and with a standard setup with no alterations >allowed, cockpit view/f10 view only, etc. Bah. Don't be silly. Nowhere has anyone ever suggested that the natural variations that occur in the real word shouldn't be present in a hard-core sim. Quite the reverse if anything. Natrual real-life variables are not even the discussion here. What this whole debate is about is the useage of variablies that are completly unnatrual. Not only do people not complain about natrual variations, they usualy want more and better. Also, no one is suggesting multi-views not be included in the program. All that's being asked for is for a way to tell how someone you're driving against is driving. Unless your ashamed about the way you're driving then why complan so much at the mere suggestion that others be aware of your driving method ? What on earth can be the objection here ? As well there's the suggestion that it'd be good if it were possiable to restrict drivers to a certain view, either one, for some leagues or races if that's what some prefer. You suggest you don't want othes to impose their opinions on you. Well then you ought to respect that some have the opinion that such would be good - and likewise don't want to be restrited by your opinion on them. If you don't like this then you could always find another race to better suit you. No doubt there'd be enough to choose from. >Its not that much of a different "baseline". There are advantages and >disadvantages to both views. And there are other more important factors >that play into someone being fast, competitive, etc. than view. There are other factors to be sure. Maybe some are indeed quite weighty as you suggest. But I'd have to say, that given that a very great part of the feedback from a computer sim is based on visusal perception, I'd think one would have to conceed that a significatly different view would, or at the very least could, be a weighty factor also. >Yeah, and we aren't talking about foot versus roller blade racing. Quit >exaggerating the whole topic. This was a very simple comparasion - the point of which is to illistrate the fact that overall results can be independant from specific sub-methods. I doubt very much that any fair minded person would try to read into it anything other than that. >And you've yet to come up with a compelling reason that there is any benefit >or special and utterly devastatingly [to exaggerate the whole topic] >advantage to using the F10 view to the cockpit view. An advantage does not need to be " utterly devastatingly " to be unfair. The concerns being expressed here are valid IMHO. Many resons have been tabled here. They may not be complelling to you but that doesn't mean they lack credability. >And oh, btw, when talking about online racing or hotlapping....such things >as bandwidth, latency, processor speeds, harddrive speeds, video cards, etc. >have a much far ranging effect on the apple-to-apple comparison than the >"view" someone chooses to use. Now you are pretending to be an expert who knows exactly what the comparative benifits and otherwise are. Other more informed people here have not claimed this. Nothing you've presented here would have me lend you that regard. > ... Might as well, if you are going to demand >everyone race in the same view, start demanding everyone have exactly the >same system, same connections, etc. These things may have an effect to be sure. I think amougst them, perhaps greater perhaps lesser, ought to be the view perception one uses. As said above - view perception is a rather big fundamental aspect of the entire sim expierience and to say it makes no difference is a big call imo. Cheers Phillip McNelley