OT: Gonzalo Rodriguez

HERE (Apparently there was a press confrence on CART.COM too) :o((: (September 11, 1999) -- Gonzalo Rodriguez, who was driving this weekend for Marlboro Team Penske, was apparently killed in an accident during practice for the Honda Grand Prix of Monterey at the Laguna Seca Raceway. The 27-year old Formula 3000 veteran apparently failed, or was unable, to brake at the entry to famed corkscrew turn. His car flew over both the tire and the concrete wall then crashed through a retaining fence landing upside down in a ravine.

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> Seen some posts on rasi & rasf1 he died at Laguna Seca today, driving > the Penske. :o( > -- > Rob Swindells > 3rd equal in Goldline Bearings FFord Championship (29 Points); > ONE point behind Championship Leader (as of round 5 of 6) > "If you're a great driver, you will get through. It's not harder than > any time before." ~Martin Brundle > "Winning, that you can't know, 'fighting' ...that I know..." ~Jacques > Villeneuve pre'96

-- Rob Swindells 3rd equal in Goldline Bearings FFord Championship (29 Points); ONE point behind Championship Leader (as of round 5 of 6) "If you're a great driver, you will get through. It's not harder than any time before." ~Martin Brundle "Winning, that you can't know, 'fighting' ...that I know..." ~Jacques Villeneuve pre'96

An very sad day for all racefans...my thoughts and prayers go out to Team Penske, the family and friends of young Gonzolo and to the CART community. don [|]-(_)-[|]

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>HERE (Apparently there was a press confrence on CART.COM too) :o((: >(September 11, 1999) -- Gonzalo Rodriguez, who was driving this >weekend for Marlboro Team Penske, was apparently killed in an accident >during practice for the Honda Grand Prix of Monterey at the Laguna >Seca Raceway. The 27-year old Formula 3000 veteran apparently failed, >or was unable, to brake at the entry to famed corkscrew turn. His car >flew over both the tire and the concrete wall then crashed through a >retaining fence landing upside down in a ravine. >> Seen some posts on rasi & rasf1 he died at Laguna Seca today, driving >> the Penske. :o( >> -- >> Rob Swindells >> 3rd equal in Goldline Bearings FFord Championship (29 Points); >> ONE point behind Championship Leader (as of round 5 of 6) >> "If you're a great driver, you will get through. It's not harder than >> any time before." ~Martin Brundle >> "Winning, that you can't know, 'fighting' ...that I know..." ~Jacques >> Villeneuve pre'96 >-- >Rob Swindells >3rd equal in Goldline Bearings FFord Championship (29 Points); >ONE point behind Championship Leader (as of round 5 of 6) >"If you're a great driver, you will get through. It's not harder than any >time before." ~Martin Brundle >"Winning, that you can't know, 'fighting' ...that I know..." ~Jacques >Villeneuve pre'96

Seen some posts on rasi & rasf1 he died at Laguna Seca today, driving the Penske. :o( -- Rob Swindells 3rd equal in Goldline Bearings FFord Championship (29 Points); ONE point behind Championship Leader (as of round 5 of 6) "If you're a great driver, you will get through. It's not harder than any time before." ~Martin Brundle "Winning, that you can't know, 'fighting' ...that I know..." ~Jacques Villeneuve pre'96

I'm crushed. This is tragic. My thoughts and prayers as well are with the family and friends of Gonzalo Rodriguez. David Cook wrote...

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> An very sad day for all racefans...my thoughts and prayers go out to Team > Penske, the family and friends of young Gonzolo and to the CART community. > don > [|]-(_)-[|] > >HERE (Apparently there was a press confrence on CART.COM too) :o((: > >(September 11, 1999) -- Gonzalo Rodriguez, who was driving this > >weekend for Marlboro Team Penske, was apparently killed in an accident > >during practice for the Honda Grand Prix of Monterey at the Laguna > >Seca Raceway. The 27-year old Formula 3000 veteran apparently failed, > >or was unable, to brake at the entry to famed corkscrew turn. His car > >flew over both the tire and the concrete wall then crashed through a > >retaining fence landing upside down in a ravine. > >> Seen some posts on rasi & rasf1 he died at Laguna Seca today, driving > >> the Penske. :o( > >> -- > >> Rob Swindells > >> 3rd equal in Goldline Bearings FFord Championship (29 Points); > >> ONE point behind Championship Leader (as of round 5 of 6) > >> "If you're a great driver, you will get through. It's not harder than > >> any time before." ~Martin Brundle > >> "Winning, that you can't know, 'fighting' ...that I know..." ~Jacques > >> Villeneuve pre'96 > >-- > >Rob Swindells > >3rd equal in Goldline Bearings FFord Championship (29 Points); > >ONE point behind Championship Leader (as of round 5 of 6) > >"If you're a great driver, you will get through. It's not harder than any > >time before." ~Martin Brundle > >"Winning, that you can't know, 'fighting' ...that I know..." ~Jacques > >Villeneuve pre'96

With all due respect to the departed; did you see the reply of the crash? Wow!! It looked a lot like Schumacher's crash, but this car flipped over the barrier and landed on it's top down the hill.

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> I'm crushed. This is tragic. My thoughts and prayers as well are with > the family and friends of Gonzalo Rodriguez. > David Cook > wrote... > > An very sad day for all racefans...my thoughts and prayers go out to

Team > > Penske, the family and friends of young Gonzolo and to the CART community.

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> > don > > [|]-(_)-[|] > > >(September 11, 1999) -- Gonzalo Rodriguez, who was driving this > > >weekend for Marlboro Team Penske, was apparently killed in an accident > > >during practice for the Honda Grand Prix of Monterey at the Laguna > > >Seca Raceway. The 27-year old Formula 3000 veteran apparently failed, > > >or was unable, to brake at the entry to famed corkscrew turn. His car > > >flew over both the tire and the concrete wall then crashed through a > > >retaining fence landing upside down in a ravine. > > >> Seen some posts on rasi & rasf1 he died at Laguna Seca today, driving > > >> the Penske. :o( > > >> -- > > >> Rob Swindells > > >> 3rd equal in Goldline Bearings FFord Championship (29 Points); > > >> ONE point behind Championship Leader (as of round 5 of 6) > > >> "If you're a great driver, you will get through. It's not harder than > > >> any time before." ~Martin Brundle > > >> "Winning, that you can't know, 'fighting' ...that I know..." ~Jacques > > >> Villeneuve pre'96 > > >-- > > >Rob Swindells > > >3rd equal in Goldline Bearings FFord Championship (29 Points); > > >ONE point behind Championship Leader (as of round 5 of 6) > > >"If you're a great driver, you will get through. It's not harder than

any > > >time before." ~Martin Brundle > > >"Winning, that you can't know, 'fighting' ...that I know..." ~Jacques > > >Villeneuve pre'96

No replays have been shon in England. Infact it hasn't even made the news at all! Not even on teletext. S'pose we'll never see the accident because I doubt Eurosport would show it when they show the race tonight.

This just goes to prove what motorsports is all about; there is a risk. But why some people would make any effort whatsoever to find a replay of a fatal accident is beyond my understanding. I remember the Krosnoff accident, and after seing it live, I did not want to see it again. It made me feel bad for weeks, and it was so touching to talk to fellow racers who saw it, and hear that they were thinking about giving up the sport, or at least open wheels when they see what could happen. My imagination is good enough, I don't need to see it. My sincere condolences to all concerned, and may Penske get back on top soon to honour Rodriguez. Matt, Norway -- --------------------------------- Matthew B. Knutsen The GPL Preservation Society http://www.gpl.electra.no http://www.KOTR.de/GPL -- GPLEA Member -- Cheek Racing Cars; http://www.cheekracing.electra.no

Penske withdrew his team from the race today, but what caught my eye was the relative lack of tire cushion at the wall. After seeing Schumacher and Hakinen clout tire barriers, you'd think tracks would be piling tires almost up to the track's edge. Condolences also to the family and friend of Gonzalo. dave henrie

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> With all due respect to the departed; did you see the reply of the crash? > Wow!! It looked a lot like Schumacher's crash, but this car flipped over > the barrier and landed on it's top down the hill. > > I'm crushed. This is tragic. My thoughts and prayers as well are with > > the family and friends of Gonzalo Rodriguez. > > David Cook > > wrote... > > > An very sad day for all racefans...my thoughts and prayers go out to > Team > > > Penske, the family and friends of young Gonzolo and to the CART > community. > > > don > > > [|]-(_)-[|] > > > >HERE (Apparently there was a press confrence on CART.COM too) :o((: > > > >(September 11, 1999) -- Gonzalo Rodriguez, who was driving this > > > >weekend for Marlboro Team Penske, was apparently killed in an accident > > > >during practice for the Honda Grand Prix of Monterey at the Laguna > > > >Seca Raceway. The 27-year old Formula 3000 veteran apparently failed, > > > >or was unable, to brake at the entry to famed corkscrew turn. His car > > > >flew over both the tire and the concrete wall then crashed through a > > > >retaining fence landing upside down in a ravine. > > > >> Seen some posts on rasi & rasf1 he died at Laguna Seca today, driving > > > >> the Penske. :o( > > > >> -- > > > >> Rob Swindells > > > >> 3rd equal in Goldline Bearings FFord Championship (29 Points); > > > >> ONE point behind Championship Leader (as of round 5 of 6) > > > >> "If you're a great driver, you will get through. It's not harder than > > > >> any time before." ~Martin Brundle > > > >> "Winning, that you can't know, 'fighting' ...that I know..." ~Jacques > > > >> Villeneuve pre'96 > > > >-- > > > >Rob Swindells > > > >3rd equal in Goldline Bearings FFord Championship (29 Points); > > > >ONE point behind Championship Leader (as of round 5 of 6) > > > >"If you're a great driver, you will get through. It's not harder than > any > > > >time before." ~Martin Brundle > > > >"Winning, that you can't know, 'fighting' ...that I know..." ~Jacques > > > >Villeneuve pre'96

David Cane schrieb: Did somebody find out, why those ***s stopped showing the CART races live?? l8er ronny -- The box said "Windows 95 or better", so I installed LINUX! |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Im watching CART2Day right now on ESPN2 and they now have a tirewall no more than 10 feet from the track in the corkscrew. In addition to the tires along the wall itself (where Gonzalo hit it) they now have reduced the risk in that corner by almost half. The corkscrew is still a very dangerous corner but i must appluad CARTs presense of mind to make alot of changes in the short time they had before the race. Its very unfortunate that it took a fatal crash to show them they needed improvements there but as always people learn from their mistakes. My heart goes out to the family and friends of young Gonzalo. Im quite saddened by this because i saw alot of potential in this young man in the CART series. This certianly is a tragedy that i hope doesnt repeat itself. Chris This post in memory of Gonzalo Rodreguiz, Scott Brayton, Jeff Krosnoff, and all others who met theyre match all to soon.

It was on Ceefax. Murray and Martin mentioned it during the Italian GP too. > No replays have been shon in England. > Infact it hasn't even made the news at all! Not even on teletext. > S'pose we'll never see the accident because I doubt Eurosport would show it > when they show the race tonight. > > With all due respect to the departed; did you see the reply of the crash? > > Wow!! It looked a lot like Schumacher's crash, but this car flipped over > > the barrier and landed on it's top down the hill.

> Did somebody find out, why those ***s stopped showing the CART races live?? > l8er > ronny Send them a mail, or better, call them!! It's an outrage!!! :-(( Matt -- --------------------------------- Matthew B. Knutsen The GPL Preservation Society http://www.gpl.netti.nu -- GPLEA Member -- Cheek Racing Cars; http://www.cheekracing.electra.no

?? i see CART live on Eurosport .... (me from Spain) McKafre De La Rosa

>?? >i see CART live on Eurosport .... (me from Spain) Me too, in Finland. Pretty much every race so far this season ... Also, they showed Rodriguez's crash during the Bol d'Or race in Paul Ricard. Horrible stuff! :( Hena

> ?? > i see CART live on Eurosport .... (me from Spain) Well, this time my programme guide was ommiting the info, but I remember one of the last CART races was taped. I was afraid, this would becoming the rule, not the exception. l8er ronny

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> McKafre De La Rosa > >David Cane schrieb: > >Did somebody find out, why those ***s stopped showing the CART races > live??

-- Ronald Stoehr Alcatel Telecom voice +49 711 821 46949 Lorenzstrasse 10 fax +49 711 821 42303 D-70435 Stuttgart "I heard if you play the NT-4.0-CD backwards, you get a satanic message." "That's nothing, if you play it forward, it installs NT-4.0"

On Sun, 12 Sep 1999 10:03:26 +0100, "David Cane" >No replays have been shon in England. >Infact it hasn't even made the news at all! Not even on teletext. >S'pose we'll never see the accident because I doubt Eurosport would show it >when they show the race tonight. It was shown here in Holland just before the race. Strange they showed it; it was not really fun too watch. Glad I'm just simming. Ruud van Gaal MarketGraph / MachTech: http://www.marketgraph.nl Art: http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery

On Sun, 12 Sep 1999 19:10:56 +0200, Ronald Stoehr >Did somebody find out, why those ***s stopped showing the CART races live?? They show it in Italy, both live and the day after the race, around lunch time. It is possible to have both Italian and English speaker. -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Home-page : http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7917 Il sito di ISF1mod : http://www.blissett.com/isf1/index.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------

this seems to be the case everywhere... a track is safe enough - untill some one gets seriously hurt or killed :( But on the other hand, many US and CAN tracks are way to dangerous... just look at mosport. These tracks would never be alowed in say F1 (don't gimme ***about F1 being boring... I agree, but at least the tracks are pretty safe.) I don't wanna take the focus away from the way to early and tragic death of GR, but lets just hope that people start looking at all the tracks, instead of just the one that has currently taken a life. No Cheers RP E-mail: rp at post1 dot com ICQ: 11115732

I just download the crash from somewhere on the net..

Is it the track that is dangerous, or is it a type of car on a particular track that is dangerous? I don't believe that many of the tracks used in CART are suited for the speeds at which these vehicles travel. Many of the F1 tracks have been designed and maintained to support faster speeds. Maybe something needs to be done, but don't immediately blame the track. I think that all CART races should be on oval tracks. You get to sit in comfy bleachers and see the entire race while only moving your head a maximum of 180 degrees. Add to that all the real racing and passing you get to see..... zzzzz, zzzzz, zzzzz...... oh, I'm sorry I just dozed off with all that e***ment that I was writing about. :) -Andrew

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> > Its very unfortunate that it took a fatal crash to > >show them they needed improvements there but as always people learn from their > >mistakes. > this seems to be the case everywhere... a track is safe enough - > untill some one gets seriously hurt or killed :( > But on the other hand, many US and CAN tracks are way to dangerous... > just look at mosport. > These tracks would never be alowed in say F1 (don't gimme ***about > F1 being boring... I agree, but at least the tracks are pretty safe.) > I don't wanna take the focus away from the way to early and tragic > death of GR, but lets just hope that people start looking at all the > tracks, instead of just the one that has currently taken a life. > No Cheers > RP > E-mail: rp at post1 dot com > ICQ: 11115732

I'll say...the chassis didn't disintegrate a single bit!!!! I would imagine if he had managed to get it sideways he would have survived...a shame. -- Kirk Lane ICQ: 28171652 BRT #187 "I read dead Russian authors volumes at a time I write everything down except what's on my mind 'Cause my greatest fear is the sucking sound And then I know I'll never get back out" -'Narcolepsy', Third Eye Blind > > Did somebody find out, why those ***s stopped showing the CART races live?? > > l8er > > ronny > Send them a mail, or better, call them!! It's an outrage!!! > :-(( > Matt > -- > --------------------------------- > Matthew B. Knutsen > The GPL Preservation Society > http://www.gpl.netti.nu > -- GPLEA Member -- > Cheek Racing Cars; > http://www.cheekracing.electra.no

For those of us that saw the crash.....was it me or did it look like there was a mechanical failure? That guy locked his brakes up quite a distance before the wall, and he still hit it at 140MPH, according to what I remember from the telemetry report....

you can always check www.eurosport.com they taped one or two races cause of other events ... (tennis, football ...) :( but almost every race is live there ... McKafre De La Rosa > ?? > i see CART live on Eurosport .... (me from Spain) Well, this time my programme guide was ommiting the info, but I remember one of the last CART races was taped. I was afraid, this would becoming the rule, not the exception. l8er ronny

ellsouth.net> writes Does nobody here watch World Superbikes on Sky or Eurosport? They're been complaining of the safety aspect of Laguna for *years* and even more so since the horrific crashes there in the '98 races. I believe that they have or are planning to switch venues for the US event. Seeing the replay before the race made me believe it would not have happened in F1 because of the extra safety measures. The wall (or whatever it was) did look unprotected for such a quick corner but it was unusual (ignoring Schueys off) that the car wasn't spinning at all and went head on in. -- Mike Buckley Cotswold Pig Development Co Ltd Tel: +44 (0)1472 371591 Fax: +44 (0)1472 371208 http://www.toastyhamster.freeserve.co.uk

Me too. Everytime someone in motorsport dies, we have to tolerate a ranting off-topic r.a.s thread *yawn* Ditto, but even so, it's still off-topic. *agggggggh* Followups set. Z. (who points out even in light of the failed r.a.s.indy r.a.s.cart failed RFD, that posts specific to CART are still on-topic in r.a.s.indy.) Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

monaco ? Spa ? McKafre De La Rosa >These tracks would never be alowed in say F1 (don't gimme ***about >F1 being boring... I agree, but at least the tracks are pretty safe.)

You can never "totally" make a track safe. There will always be a "fluke" type of accident to create more safety concerns which the league would then implement. F1 may have more slow chicanes on the fast stretches but that also makes the races more boring and destroys the entire theory of auto racing...to go as fast as humanly and mechanically possible and beat the other guys to the checkered flag. >ellsouth.net> writes >>Is it the track that is dangerous, or is it a type of car on a particular track >>that is dangerous? I don't believe that many of the tracks used in CART are >>suited >>for the speeds at which these vehicles travel. Many of the F1 tracks have been >>designed and maintained to support faster speeds. Maybe something needs to be

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>>done, but don't immediately blame the track. >Does nobody here watch World Superbikes on Sky or Eurosport? They're >been complaining of the safety aspect of Laguna for *years* and even >more so since the horrific crashes there in the '98 races. I believe >that they have or are planning to switch venues for the US event. >Seeing the replay before the race made me believe it would not have >happened in F1 because of the extra safety measures. The wall (or >whatever it was) did look unprotected for such a quick corner but it was >unusual (ignoring Schueys off) that the car wasn't spinning at all and >went head on in. >-- >Mike Buckley >Cotswold Pig Development Co Ltd >Tel: +44 (0)1472 371591 Fax: +44 (0)1472 371208

> I think that all CART races should be on oval tracks. You get to sit in comfy bleachers and see the entire race while only moving your head a maximum of 180 > degrees. Add to that all the real racing and passing you get to see..... zzzzz, > zzzzz, zzzzz...... oh, I'm sorry I just dozed off with all that e***ment that I > was writing about. :) > -Andrew Don't even joke about such things heathen...We don't need a CRL even in jest... dave henrie

> monaco ? Spa ? Heh, what about a certain quite serious accident at Silverstone?

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> McKafre De La Rosa > >These tracks would never be alowed in say F1 (don't gimme ***about > >F1 being boring... I agree, but at least the tracks are pretty safe.)

Matt -- --------------------------------- Matthew B. Knutsen The GPL Preservation Society http://www.gpl.netti.nu -- GPLEA Member -- Cheek Racing Cars; http://www.cheekracing.electra.no

>> monaco ? Spa ? >Heh, what about a certain quite serious accident at Silverstone? I wouldn't call a broken leg a serious injury. There are thousands of people who have the same injury who merely call it a slight accident and more inconvenient than anything else. M

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>>> monaco ? Spa ? >>Heh, what about a certain quite serious accident at Silverstone? >I wouldn't call a broken leg a serious injury. There are thousands of >people who have the same injury who merely call it a slight accident and >more inconvenient than anything else.

Actually Sid Watkins said that Schumi hit his head to the dash at 107mph, enough to kill him. Also, people have died from leg wounds he had. (I have the whole interview if interested) I guess Schumi was very lucky ... Hena

: I wouldn't call a broken leg a serious injury. There are thousands of : people who have the same injury who merely call it a slight accident and : more inconvenient than anything else. Have you ever had a major break? If you have, then you had a good experience, and you were lucky. If you haven't, then you don't know what you are talking about. Long term complications of broken bones are plentiful. If the break involves on joint, you can count on srthritis in your later years. If you are an athlete, there is a good chance you will cut short your career due to the degeneration of the joint. If the fracture doesn't involve a joint, then there is still a very real chance of improper healing and re-fracture. If you are incredibly unlucky, like Ronnie Peterson, then a fairly benign fracture could result in a fat embolism going off into your circulatory system and stopping your heart. If the fracture is compound (ie. bone puncturing the skin, as is often the case with high energy fractures like motor racing and skiing) then there is damage and scarring to the muscles and tendons that surround the fracture. The physio related to recovering from a major fracture is not a "minor inconvenience", nor is the loss of a whole season of motor racing, skiing, football, rugby etc. in the athlete's already short career. Been there, done that (fractured tibial plateau, patella, evulsed ligaments, meniscal tear) and did not consider it trivial, nor did I appreciate the loss of a rugby season. I also don't like the fact that, ten years later, my knees lack the range of motion they had pre-injury, despite a very active lifestyle. It bugged me so much I decided to do my PhD on fracture healing and soft tissue damage. :) OK, rant over. Don't underestimate the consequences of any injury to an athlete. Stephen

I'm not talking about the effect of the damage on an "athlete" just that a broken leg isn't a serious accident in the terms of danger to life. Yes some can be but this wasn't. The man is alive, pretty much well and recovering so stop making it out to be a tragedy. Gonzo, Senna, Ratzenberger, Krosnoff, Sharp are tragedies, Schumacher, Fittipaldi, Blundell and so on are not. M <SNIPPED A LOT OF MEDICAL INFO>

Is he dead tho? No... was it life threatening? apparently not. Thus it's not a serious accident compared to those suffered by other drivers. M

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> > monaco ? Spa ? > Heh, what about a certain quite serious accident at Silverstone? > > McKafre De La Rosa > > >These tracks would never be alowed in say F1 (don't gimme ***about > > >F1 being boring... I agree, but at least the tracks are pretty safe.) > Matt > -- > --------------------------------- > Matthew B. Knutsen > The GPL Preservation Society > http://www.gpl.netti.nu > -- GPLEA Member -- > Cheek Racing Cars; > http://www.cheekracing.electra.no

1989 GERHARD BERGER was lucky to escape with his life after crashing into the concrete retaining wall at Imola. 1994...5 years later, that exact unprotected conrete wall claims the life of Ayrton Senna.....nothing was changed after Berger's accident....had a barrier of tires been erected I strongly believe that Senna would still be with us today. Gonzalo's accident was tragic and no doubt an extremely odd scenario unlike other incidents which should have been avoided.

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> 1989 GERHARD BERGER was lucky to escape with his life after crashing > into the concrete retaining wall at Imola. > 1994...5 years later, that exact unprotected conrete wall claims the > life of Ayrton Senna.....nothing was changed after Berger's > accident....had a barrier of tires been erected I strongly believe that > Senna would still be with us today. > Gonzalo's accident was tragic and no doubt an extremely odd scenario > unlike other incidents which should have been avoided.

Yeah, true. But so was Krosnoff's. Personally, I have a spooky sensation whenever I watch Monaco...I'm just waiting for the one accident where a car climbs into the crowds...Patrick Tambay nearly managed this in 84 (?) With the Beatrice Lola. Matt -- --------------------------------- Matthew B. Knutsen The GPL Preservation Society http://www.gpl.electra.no -- GPLEA Member -- Cheek Racing Cars; http://www.cheekracing.electra.no

> Is he dead tho? No... was it life threatening? apparently not. Thus it's > not a serious accident compared to those suffered by other drivers. > M Well....we're moving into the "what if" scenario here. What if Krosnoff's head hadn't hit anything. He might have survived. Andretti, Fittipaldi, Mansell..they could all have died at some point. When it comes to track security, nothing can protect you 100%. Just look at Mika; had his Adelaide shunt happened just a few years earlier, he would never have had the chance to make that incredible comeback.... I'd consider any accident that puts one in hospital for a longer period of time serious. Wasn't Ernie Irvan's Michigan accident serious? How about Karl Wendlinger? Just because they survived? This is a very fine line we're balancing on! Matt

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> >Actually Sid Watkins said that Schumi hit his head to the dash at 107mph, > >enough to kill him. Also, people have died from leg wounds he had. (I have > >the whole interview if interested) > >I guess Schumi was very lucky ... > >Hena

-- --------------------------------- Matthew B. Knutsen The GPL Preservation Society http://www.gpl.electra.no -- GPLEA Member -- Cheek Racing Cars; http://www.cheekracing.electra.no

On Wed, 15 Sep 1999 14:06:04 GMT, Brent Arthurs >1994...5 years later, that exact unprotected conrete wall claims the >life of Ayrton Senna.....nothing was changed after Berger's >accident....had a barrier of tires been erected I strongly believe that >Senna would still be with us today. Maybe, but it was a broken suspension arm that killed Senna, hitting his head. The point is that the wall lets the car slide and slow down, while the tyres in a similar point can trap the nose of the car, breaking the legs of the pilot, like happened to Panis in Montreal. Senna was very unlucky, because there were several accidents at the Tamburello, Piquet (87), Berger (89), Alboreto and Patrese, and the damage to the pilots were not so bad, considering the speed and the type of crashes -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Home-page : http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7917 Il sito di ISF1mod : http://www.blissett.com/isf1/index.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------

God, do we have to resurrect this yet again? Ayrton was killed NOT by an absence of impact dissipation material, but by a part of a suspension arm penetrating his visor and then his head. How might tires have lessened the chance of a (somewhat fragile) suspension piece flying around? Gerhard's chief danger was the fire--he was back racing within a month. Again, not particularly related to an absence of tire barriers. --David

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> 1989 GERHARD BERGER was lucky to escape with his life after crashing > into the concrete retaining wall at Imola. > 1994...5 years later, that exact unprotected conrete wall claims the > life of Ayrton Senna.....nothing was changed after Berger's > accident....had a barrier of tires been erected I strongly believe that > Senna would still be with us today. > Gonzalo's accident was tragic and no doubt an extremely odd scenario > unlike other incidents which should have been avoided.

On Tue, 14 Sep 1999 14:34:02 +0100, Mike Buckley >Seeing the replay before the race made me believe it would not have >happened in F1 because of the extra safety measures. Maybe, but also in F1 it took two dead drivers until they *really* started extra safety measures. And we had a lot of luck in F1, too (remember the horrible accidents of Hakkinen and Wendlinger some years ago?). Yes, maybe multiple tirewalls like in Eau Rouge (Spa) would have saved Rodriguez. But afterwards it's always easy to see inappropriate safety measures, and according to ESPN this was the first fatal accident in a race weekend since the track opened in 1957... Daniel -- ICQ UIN: 30333508 http://www.topofgames.de || http://danielshome.cjb.net

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>> Is he dead tho? No... was it life threatening? apparently not. Thus >> it's not a serious accident compared to those suffered by other >> drivers. >> M >Well....we're moving into the "what if" scenario here. What if >Krosnoff's head hadn't hit anything. He might have survived. Andretti, >Fittipaldi, Mansell..they could all have died at some point. When it >comes to track security, nothing can protect you 100%. Just look at >Mika; had his Adelaide shunt happened just a few years earlier, he would >never have had the chance to make that incredible comeback.... >I'd consider any accident that puts one in hospital for a longer period >of time serious. Wasn't Ernie Irvan's Michigan accident serious? How >about Karl Wendlinger? >Just because they survived? This is a very fine line we're balancing on!

You're dealing in irrelevancies here Matt and it's not "what if" at all. Schumacher was not seriously hurt. It is a fact. Irrefutable. Ernie Irvan and Karl Wendlingers accidents were very serious because they were extremely badly hurt in them so much so that doctors told them to be pleased if they ever drove a *car* again, let alone a race car. There is a tendancy for fans to spend too long debating what if rather than what happened. My point was that Schumachers accident wasn't what I'd call serious as there was no real threat to his life if we look at it now. At the time I was as worried as anyone else but we have the benefit of all the evidence now and he was virtually unscathed compared to what would have happened 10 years ago. M

>There is a tendancy for fans to spend too long debating what if rather >than what happened. My point was that Schumachers accident wasn't what >I'd call serious as there was no real threat to his life if we look at it >now. That's not true according to Sid Watkins from dailyF1: SCHUMACHER ACCIDENT FINDINGS EMERGE Reports and findings surfacing from research over Michael Schumacher's accident at the British Grand Prix have suggested the German could have been killed by the impact. F1 medical supremo Sid Watkins has revealed that the accident, which broke Schumacher's right leg in two places, was severe enough to kill him. Watkins was one of the first on the scene to attend to the double world champion after he was removed from the***pit. 'When we saw him we understood exactly that he had a broken leg because it was unnaturally deformed,' said Watkins. 'We were happier when we saw the skin with no wounds.' 'He was suffering. 'Michael crashed his head against the***pit in a frontal way at 90 degrees at 107 km/h. Enough to kill. His head hurtled with extreme *** but we experimented on his head that our rules on safety were good because the helmet was broken but the man was safe. 'We kept his 'head-keeper' (deformable foam type structure behind the driver 's head) because we'll study and experiment on it. In this way his accident will be important for F1 and motorsport. 'We will have the results in late spring.' As well as Watkins' accounts and discoveries, Italian photographer Alberto Crippa, who was working at Stowe corner on July 12 when the accident occurred, has also revealed his dramatic account of events. 'It was a terrible view,' said Crippa, who was standing just metres away from the crash scene. 'I saw the car pointing straight to the borders of the track in the middle of a cloud of blue smoke. 'Then, the crash was sudden, terrible, and loud. (The) first thing I wondered was if he still (had) his legs. The car lost its front part under the tyres and it was logical to think so. Then the second thought was for his life. 'That direct and fast shunt gave me the thought he could be dead. I understood he was alive because I heard him crying through the helmet. 'He was crying loud for the pain, but he was alive. Amazingly, Crippa can also recall some words Schumacher shouted when he was trying in vain to emerge from the***pit. 'He took the steering wheel away and tried to put his knees in the front part of the***pit trying to come out from there. But while the marshalls were coming running, he was shouting, "The leg! The leg.what a terrible pain". 'The shouts were very loud so they were quite easy to understand.' 'While the marshalls were taking him away from the***pit Michael was suffering and shouting again "Be careful be careful". 'But I knew that he was weeping tears of pain.' Hena

Strange that - I recall an interview with Jacques Villeneuve when he first came to F1 - cannot recall what exactly he said but he voiced his concern over the safety at Monaco - this from a man who likes to take a car to the limits!! (and isn't it wonderful to watch!). This thread is becoming a bit 'his accident was worse than his accident because...' - please, let's stop this playground type argument - at the end of the day drivers WILL die in F1, Cart, Champ, Rally, whatever - and continue to do so. Some accidents will be freaks - Senna, some just unforeseeable. Perhaps this is why the sport is loved. At the end of the day, most alternative Sundays people can sit and watch some of the greatest drivers in the world risk their all for a trophy (and the rest...!) More will die and more will walk away from tremendous crashes with 'nere a scratch, but this is what makes people 'do' motorsport and continue to do so.

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> >I have a spooky sensation > >whenever I watch Monaco...I'm just waiting for the one accident where a car > >climbs into the crowds... > Strange that - I recall an interview with Jacques Villeneuve when he first came > to F1 - cannot recall what exactly he said but he voiced his concern over the > safety at Monaco - this from a man who likes to take a car to the limits!! (and > isn't it wonderful to watch!). > This thread is becoming a bit 'his accident was worse than his accident > because...' - please, let's stop this playground type argument - at the end of > the day drivers WILL die in F1, Cart, Champ, Rally, whatever - and continue to > do so. Some accidents will be freaks - Senna, some just unforeseeable. Perhaps > this is why the sport is loved. At the end of the day, most alternative Sundays > people can sit and watch some of the greatest drivers in the world risk their > all for a trophy (and the rest...!) > More will die and more will walk away from tremendous crashes with 'nere a > scratch, but this is what makes people 'do' motorsport and continue to do so.

Actually that's what makes me do GPL rather than trying it for real! ;-)

Which part of "My point was that Schumachers accident wasn't what I'd call serious as there was no real threat to his life if we look at it now" was hard for you to understand. Schumacher was not killed nor was he in danger of dying and I'm not talking what could have happened or what we feared but what we *know* happened with retrospective sight. M <SNIPPED SOME IRRELEVANT CRAP>

. My point was that Schumachers accident wasn't what Really? Any broken leg can be a life threatening condition. Howzabout you read up on what happened to Ronnie Peterson and how he was sitting up in bed joking with nurses after his Monza accident in 1979. A few hours later he was dead as a result of an embolism caused by marrowbone tissue getting into the ***stream Mark

: Which part of "My point was that Schumachers accident wasn't what I'd : call serious as there was no real threat to his life if we look at it : now" was hard for you to understand. Schumacher was not killed nor was he : in danger of dying and I'm not talking what could have happened or what : we feared but what we *know* happened with retrospective sight. And your point was made in the context of a discussion about which tracks were safe and which were not, to bring this back to the original topic. And so the facts are that Schumacher went straight off at silverstone and impacted a tire wall and concrete wall at 100mph. The impact ripped the nose off his car and broke his leg. The follow up data, which we can now view with retrospective sight, indicates that it was a hell of an impact and could theoretically have killed him. The logical conclusion, and the point of this whole thread in the first place, is that this corner is "unsafe" and some changes should be made (sloping gravel traps? asphalt? Stay-Puff marshmallows?). If there is some sincerity to the moes to make cars and circuits safer, then this accident is just as important a data point as Wendlinger's accident, Senna's, Ratzenberger's, Ronnie Peterson's and Berger's. You analyze them all and make improvements. But I of course agree with your point about the relative "tragedy" of the events. In one case a driver is dead, and in the other case not. Stephen

Are you a moron... read my post again. Is Schumacher dead? Go on... tell me... is he? No. So why persist in saying what could have happened. His accident was not life threatening. I was as worried as anyone else when the accident happened and rumours of complications started but once it was announced that it was a break and not life threatening that was it. M

Finally someone who sees my point... I apologies for labouring the point but people did insist on what could have happened over what did. M

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>: Which part of "My point was that Schumachers accident wasn't what I'd >: call serious as there was no real threat to his life if we look at it >: now" was hard for you to understand. Schumacher was not killed nor was he >: in danger of dying and I'm not talking what could have happened or what >: we feared but what we *know* happened with retrospective sight. >And your point was made in the context of a discussion about which tracks >were safe and which were not, to bring this back to the original topic. >And so the facts are that Schumacher went straight off at silverstone and >impacted a tire wall and concrete wall at 100mph. The impact ripped the >nose off his car and broke his leg. The follow up data, which we can now >view with retrospective sight, indicates that it was a hell of an impact >and could theoretically have killed him. The logical conclusion, and the >point of this whole thread in the first place, is that this corner is >"unsafe" and some changes should be made (sloping gravel traps? asphalt? >Stay-Puff marshmallows?).

If you determine the "danger" of corners based on this particular incident, then I don't think one single corner in F1 survives the test... How many corners end up safe when you loose all rear brakes? Only straights are safe in those circumstances! Or else the spectators have to be placed at such a distance that they would prefer to watch the race at home <G>. Is F1 that much safer than before that Black Day at Imola in 94? Actions have been taken, but we've seen some more horrible accidents in the mean time. Yes, most of the drivers got away with it over the last few years. But so they did from 1985(De Angelis?)-1994. I even have the impression that there are far _more_ accidents right now. In my opinion, the more recent changes won't make a difference. Things are about as safe as they can reasonably be. To make them even "safer", the whole F1-experience would suffer, and as we would say in my country "we would throw away the child with the bathwater" :-). JoH ======================================== Jo Helsen EDP Operations BF Belgium ========================================

OK...here is the story from an acquaintence who was there. I've left his name off, it's not important. I will warn you, it ain't pretty. "I am the photographer in the blue sweatshirt that you can see in the video replay running down the hill away from the accident. I was in the area because I was heading down to the red-zone on the inside of 8a to kick the photographers out of that area. I was waiting for a lull in the action before I entered that area so I decided to shoot some pictures of the cars dropping down into the corkscrew. As soon as I saw Gonzalo's car not follow the correct racing line, I started to run because I knew parts were going to fly. I watched the whole accident unfold and everything seemed to go in slow motion. The impact was so large that the concrete barrier was cracked in half and pushed back about a foot. The car slowly pole-vaulted over the signage with Gonzalo's head area hitting the supporting horizontal 1X6 that holds up the top of the banner. The board was broken but still together when I looked at it later. The car came down just on the other side of the barrier on its rear wing and then plunged down the 20ft drop to land upside down. It did not look like his head hit the dirt at this time. There were 5 photographers below the accident and two of them ran up to get photos of the driver getting out of the car because it did not look badly damaged. As you can see in the video, I also started to take photos from where I was standing. I then yelled at the photographers to get away from the car, I thought it might burst into flame. Upon seeing the driver closer we knew immediately that Gonzalo was dead and every photographer put their cameras away. All said that they would not publish any of their photos of the accident. No film was confiscated at the track. I hope I didn't offend anyone and I tried not to be too graphic but I have to get my story out. I'm hoping the truth will help me heal...this is going to take a long time to get through and the memory will be with me forever." Motorsports is dangerous, always has been, always will be. Yes, there are measures which can be taken to protect the drivers and, more importantly, the spectators, but we will NEVER totally eliminate the danger. If you want an antiseptic, boring, safe sport, take up badminton. Gonzalo was a brilliant, young talent who was poised to take on the world. We honor his memory by carrying on in the same way that he would, with all the desire, passion and focus needed to attain the highest levels of the sport. don [|]-(_)-[|]

I know I'm a bit late with this, but Eurosport did show it in SportsCentre (their newsflash program) the day it happened, then (apparently, I didn't see it the 2nd time) in the build up to the race. According to autosport.com, he went off at 140mph, and they think his foot may have slipped off the brake and on to the throttle when his right front wheel hit a kerb. It would have been a spectacular addition to all those motorsport out-take programs, had the outcome not been so tragic. Mike West > No replays have been shon in England. > Infact it hasn't even made the news at all! Not even on teletext. > S'pose we'll never see the accident because I doubt Eurosport would show it > when they show the race tonight. > > With all due respect to the departed; did you see the reply of the crash? > > Wow!! It looked a lot like Schumacher's crash, but this car flipped over > > the barrier and landed on it's top down the hill.

No I'm not a moron No he is not dead! Why get so ***y agressive? >No. So why persist in saying what could have happened. Persist? I only see one previous post in this thread by myself and I cannot recall saying anything on the subject of what could have happened. I was simply drawing your attention to a medical fact. I quote an earlier post my your good self.... I was merely pointing out that any injury involving a broken leg IS potentially life threatening! Just a simple statement of fact. Now who is the moron in the eyes of the masses I wonder? Not that I am calling you one of course <G> Mk

>I was merely pointing out that any injury involving a broken leg IS >potentially life threatening! Just a simple statement of fact. Now who is >the moron in the eyes of the masses I wonder? >Not that I am calling you one of course <G> >Mk Rest assured, it's you. Z. Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

>God, do we have to resurrect this yet again? Ayrton was killed NOT by an >absence of impact dissipation material, but by a part of a suspension arm >penetrating his visor and then his head. How might tires have lessened the >chance of a (somewhat fragile) suspension piece flying around? Yet, I wonder - there are so many ingenious engineers in motor sport, but the people who design the safety features of the tracks seem to be amateurs. Somebody in this thread said that you can't foresee all kinds of accidents and take provisions against them - true. Senna's crash is one example. But I think it should be pretty easy to foresee possible trajectories which damaged, or out-of-control cars can take. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a car that is not controllable anymore will almost always keep going in a straight line until it is stopped, right? And there are known parts of a track where the cars will be very fast (f.i. at the end of long straights), and other parts where they will be much slower (f.i. mid- to end of a tight corner). What is maybe even more important is the angle in which a damaged car will most likely travel in relation to the safety barriers. Now, all a designer has to do is to calculate the most likely trajectories and ask himself: "What do we need at this place - a run-off zone with tire barriers at the end or a *nearby* concrete wall which runs more or less parallel to the car's trajectory?" Both measures, in the right places, would lessen the severity of the impact. I sometimes get pretty angry when I see accidents like Panis' in Canada a few years ago, where a concrete wall without tires would have spared his legs. OTOH, the Laguna Seca cork***is a tight corner at the end of a very fast section. Why isn't there a run-off zone? O.k., so one would need to build a concrete ramp to provide one? Then make it so! Or think about alternative restraints: how about the nets that are used on aircraft carriers to catch planes which cannot use the hook? If it can stand an F 15, it surely can stand a champ car. I could go on forever just citing examples from this year. What about the accident by da Matto (sp?) a few weeks ago: what the heck was the hole in the barrier doing at this place? Just where a car will go when the driver loses it accelerating from the corner? Racing is dangerous and will always be. Vehicles moving at more than 300 km/h in an environment with solid obstacles will never be completely safe, unless we develop UFO-like force field technology. ;) But I don't think that everything is being done to make racing safer, even with today's technology. Sorry for ranting. :) ObRAS: Despite Rodriguez' death, I watched and enjoyed (moderately - this week's F1 race was more exciting, for a change) the Laguna Seca race. More than ever, I feel we need a competent new CART sim, preferably by Papyrus and using the GPL game engine. I had to fire up ICR2 again to drive a bit on this track - I can live with the graphics, the model of the track is still excellent, but the physics are definitely outdated by now. -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.

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> OK...here is the story from an acquaintence who was there. I've left his > name off, it's not important. I will warn you, it ain't pretty. > [SNIPPED] > Motorsports is dangerous, always has been, always will be. Yes, there are > measures which can be taken to protect the drivers and, more importantly, > the spectators, but we will NEVER totally eliminate the danger. If you want > an antiseptic, boring, safe sport, take up badminton.

Funny thing is, motorsports can often appear boring if you don't understand the risks involved: a lot of cars trundling around one after another. Experienced viewers know that that can change in a split-second, of course. Now this is getting way off-topic of course, but: Badminton is far from boring - certainly not at the top level! The players are incredibly fit, and the action is fast and explosive. Just another example of how promotion and TV coverage is all-important in sport (badminton doesn't get any, except in Indonesia and China where it is huge). Now don't get me started on how squash gets even less coverage (except in Pakistan and Egypt) - did you know there have been riots following matches involving Ahmed Barrada? Not confined to motor racing and soccer, then!

Well if we're going to get into this deeply, just about every injury can have complications that are life threatening if you combine enough circumstances. However, the vast majority of broken legs don't result in anything more than a trip to the hospital for a cast. As Zonk has also posted... that, Mark, is still you sadly. M

:>>I'm not talking about the effect of the damage on an "athlete" just :>>that a broken leg isn't a serious accident in the terms of danger to :>>life : Well if we're going to get into this deeply, just about every injury can : have complications that are life threatening if you combine enough : circumstances. However, the vast majority of broken legs don't result in : anything more than a trip to the hospital for a cast. </trivial knowledge mode switched on> Actually, the *vast* majority of broken legs are not treated conservatively (that is, with a simple plaster cast). The trend in orthopaedic practice now is to use some form of hardware (metal plate, intramedullary nail like Schumy's, screws etc.) to better control the bone fragments and to promote better healing. </trivial knowledge off> Stephen

>Actually, the *vast* majority of broken legs are not treated >conservatively (that is, with a simple plaster cast). The trend in >orthopaedic practice now is to use some form of hardware (metal plate, >intramedullary nail like Schumy's, screws etc.) to better control the bone >fragments and to promote better healing. Well you'll excuse me but it's some time since I actually had a friend who smashed a leg up and the last one who did was somewhat more seriously damaged. Point taken but my point is still valid... the majority are hardly life threatening :) M

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>>>I'm not talking about the effect of the damage on an "athlete" just >>>that a broken leg isn't a serious accident in the terms of danger to >>>life >Well if we're going to get into this deeply, just about every injury can >have complications that are life threatening if you combine enough >circumstances. However, the vast majority of broken legs don't result in >anything more than a trip to the hospital for a cast. >>I was merely pointing out that any injury involving a broken leg IS >>potentially life threatening! Just a simple statement of fact. Now who >>is the moron in the eyes of the masses I wonder? >>Not that I am calling you one of course <G> >As Zonk has also posted... that, Mark, is still you sadly.

Nah Meij, you're the moron, honest..... Remco

is quite different then a broken leg isn't life threatening Mark did point that out, and you called him a moron, something only a real moron would do... Remco

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>>the majority are hardly life threatening >is quite different then >a broken leg isn't life threatening >Mark did point that out, and you called him a moron, something only a >real moron would do... >Remco

which makes you a moron then? Um... ok. Z. Who has to agree- sure, Broken Legs can be life threatenign but the majority aren't- even in F1. How many borken legs suffered in F1 since Peterson's death without fatality? A clear majority. Not denying that Schumi has been hurt, but this kinda accident- on track or not- happens every day, and to people not insured for 10000's of $'s for every day of work.... Z. Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

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>>>the majority are hardly life threatening >>is quite different then >>a broken leg isn't life threatening >>Mark did point that out, and you called him a moron, something only a >>real moron would do... >>Remco >which makes you a moron then?

That's no secret.... Hmmm, IIRCt, according to Meij's (and your) logic, an accident is only life threatening when you get killed.... Remco

> [SNIPPED] > Hmmm, IIRCt, according to Meij's (and your) logic, an accident is only > life threatening when you get killed.... Yup, isn't hindsight a wonderful thing! The equivalent and opposite simplification is to state that motor racing is life-threatening anyway, since you could have an accident at any moment. I don't think this thread is going anywhere useful...

>Hmmm, IIRCt, according to Meij's (and your) logic, an accident is only >life threatening when you get killed.... >Remco Nope- please allude me to any substantiated reports- not heresay that ever indicated his life was threatened. Z. Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

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>>>the majority are hardly life threatening >>is quite different then >>a broken leg isn't life threatening >>Mark did point that out, and you called him a moron, something only a >>real moron would do... >>Remco >which makes you a moron then? >Um... ok. >Z. >Who has to agree- sure, Broken Legs can be life threatenign but the majority >aren't- even in F1. How many borken legs suffered in F1 since Peterson's death >without fatality? >A clear majority.

Don't know why these people are sticking to their guns so rigorously. I think that sticking to the line that breaking a leg is life threatening because in rare cases someone has died is a bit daft. Would those people say that crossing the road is life threatening. I mean, people die doing that also. -- Peter Ives

This has gone on long enough - what do you people want - ***?! This week, the Times newspaper printed the findings of an FIA investigation into Schumis' crash - Prof Sid Watkins stated that Michaels' head hit his steering wheel at 107mph - the helmet broke in two but did the job. Stop being so ***y gruesome with this 'his accident was more dangerous than his accident' nonsense and just think yourself lucky that next year we will be able to savour more of the finest driver for years giving it his all in pursuit of the ultimate goal.An having to fight fot it against the major talent emerging from under his shadow!