Bathurst 24-Hours

After 2 hours, the past 30 minutes of it wet, the two Holden Monaro 427 c.i. coupes are running 1st. (Steven Richards) & 3rd. (Peter Brock). There's a bloody Ferrari in the sandwich! :) Bruce.

Bruce Kennewell wrote: > > After 2 hours, the past 30 minutes of it wet, the two Holden Monaro 427 c.i. > coupes are running 1st. (Steven Richards) & 3rd. (Peter Brock). > > There's a bloody Ferrari in the sandwich! :) Holden rules...:-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

"Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > Bruce Kennewell wrote: > > > > After 2 hours, the past 30 minutes of it wet, the two Holden Monaro 427c.i.

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> > coupes are running 1st. (Steven Richards) & 3rd. (Peter Brock). > > > > There's a bloody Ferrari in the sandwich! :) > > Holden rules...:-) > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > "goyl at nettx dot no" > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

After nearly 9 hours Holden 1-2. Brockie leading. Steve

> > Holden rules...:-) > > > > > > Beers and cheers > > (uncle) Goy > > "goyl at nettx dot no" can anyone else tell me why holden is the only manufacturer allowed to race a non-production car in a production car race? David Corless

"David Corless" <david.corless.no.spam[@]utseduau> wrote in news:3fbf6e78$0$13681$[email hidden]: > can anyone else tell me why holden is the only manufacturer allowed to > race a non-production car in a production car race? > > David Corless > $$ The same reason the parent company(GM) got away with racing a prototype for years in the GTS class at LeMans. dave henrie

"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > $$ The same reason the parent company(GM) got away with racing a > prototype for years in the GTS class at LeMans. Whatever helps you sleep at night, Dave... <G> -jde

"J.D. Ellis" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:3fbfddfa$0$22732$[email hidden]:

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>> $$ The same reason the parent company(GM) got away with racing a >> prototype for years in the GTS class at LeMans. > > Whatever helps you sleep at night, Dave... > > <G> > > -jde

Yup<VBG>....(having Narcolepsy means I sleep quite well at night..and in the morning, and in the afternoon. Unmedicated, I could sleep as often as a Hobbit eats.) :) Just to clarify...To race a GTS Viper, you first bought a GTS-R Viper and then added your team's tweeks. To race a GTS Corvette, you got Pratt & Miller to build a wider, longer version of the C5. Saleen then followed the Corvette model and built their GTS prototype from the ground up as well. I won't say who complained first about the Saleen... :) dave henrie

Where is it "non-production", David? You mean the 7-litre engine? Isn't that an "option"? Bruce. "David Corless" <david.corless.no.spam[@]utseduau> wrote in message news:3fbf6e78$0$13681$[email hidden]...

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> > > Holden rules...:-) > > > > > > > > > Beers and cheers > > > (uncle) Goy > > > "goyl at nettx dot no" > > can anyone else tell me why holden is the only manufacturer allowed to

race > a non-production car in a production car race? > > David Corless > >

They certainly did....a 1-2 finish and the 10th. win at Panorama for Peter Perfect! Bruce. "Goy Larsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > > Bruce Kennewell wrote: > > > > After 2 hours, the past 30 minutes of it wet, the two Holden Monaro 427c.i.

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> > coupes are running 1st. (Steven Richards) & 3rd. (Peter Brock). > > > > There's a bloody Ferrari in the sandwich! :) > > Holden rules...:-) > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > "goyl at nettx dot no" > > http://www.theuspits.com > > "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" > --Groucho Marx--

well, the 7-litre 427 engine isn't an option: the biggest motor is the Gen 3 chev, which I think is 350cu Neither is the sequential 6-speed holinger gear box. In fact, I'm pretty sure most of the major parts aren't available for the road going monaro. Holden spoke about making them available, but never did anything practical towards this. David Corless "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3fc17c48$[email hidden]...

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> Where is it "non-production", David? > You mean the 7-litre engine? Isn't that an "option"? > > Bruce. > > "David Corless" <david.corless.no.spam[@]utseduau> wrote in message > news:3fbf6e78$0$13681$[email hidden]... > > > > Holden rules...:-) > > > > > > > > > > > > Beers and cheers > > > > (uncle) Goy > > > > "goyl at nettx dot no" > > > > can anyone else tell me why holden is the only manufacturer allowed to > race > > a non-production car in a production car race? > > > > David Corless > > > > > >

David Corless wrote: > well, the 7-litre 427 engine isn't an option: the biggest motor is > the Gen 3 chev, which I think is 350cu > Neither is the sequential 6-speed holinger gear box. Correct. > In fact, I'm pretty sure most of the major parts aren't available for > the road going monaro. Also very correct. > Holden spoke about making them available, but never did anything > practical towards this. Yes, they did consider building some for paying customers but they dropped the project when they discovered they would cost much (much, much) more than original estimates. It's another example of pushing the rules to the n'th degree and beyond... - Peter Ogden --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.543 / Virus Database: 337 - Release Date: 21/11/2003

You're not really counting that as a "Bathurst" win are you Bruce? "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3fc17c91$[email hidden]... > They certainly did....a 1-2 finish and the 10th. win at Panorama for Peter > Perfect!

Why not? Let's look at the facts: 1) Venue = Mt. Panorama, Bathurst. 2) Event = Endurance motor race. 3) Driver's name = Peter Brock. 4) Finishing Position = 1st. 5) Number of previous first-places in endurance motor races held at Bathurst = 9. Yep - I reckon that all adds up to win number 10. Bruce. "Byron John Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > You're not really counting that as a "Bathurst" win are you Bruce? > > "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:3fc17c91$[email hidden]... > > They certainly did....a 1-2 finish and the 10th. win at Panorama forPeter > > Perfect! > >

"Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3fc17c48$[email hidden]... > Where is it "non-production", David? > You mean the 7-litre engine? Isn't that an "option"? There's nothing 'production' about the Monaro, other than its exterior sheetmetal. Mechanically, it doesnt resemble the Monaro CV8 at all. I can understand its entry last year, when there was a possibility of it entering production, but this year??? It makes a mockery of the series, and is somewhat disrespectful towards the other other competitors that are following the rules. KK

"Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Why not? > Let's look at the facts: > > 1) Venue = Mt. Panorama, Bathurst. > 2) Event = Endurance motor race. > 3) Driver's name = Peter Brock. > 4) Finishing Position = 1st. > 5) Number of previous first-places in endurance motor races held at

Bathurst > = 9. > > Yep - I reckon that all adds up to win number 10. A hollow victory. A car that couldn't lose (barring unreliability), that didn't even conform to the racing series' technical regulations. KK

"Byron John Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > You're not really counting that as a "Bathurst" win are you Bruce? > > "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:3fc17c91$[email hidden]... > > They certainly did....a 1-2 finish and the 10th. win at Panorama forPeter > > Perfect! > > I would include it as win number 10. If you look back at the changes in the rules and car specs since Brock started racing at Bathurst. The cars have gone from street legal road cars to purpose built race cars. Considering it was still an endurance race and they coverered over 3000kms, yeah its win number 10. Maybe now Brock can relax without the fans wishing for that magic number 10!!:-) Steve

"Kasper Kowalski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Why not? > > Let's look at the facts: > > > > 1) Venue = Mt. Panorama, Bathurst. > > 2) Event = Endurance motor race. > > 3) Driver's name = Peter Brock. > > 4) Finishing Position = 1st. > > 5) Number of previous first-places in endurance motor races held at > Bathurst > > = 9. > > > > Yep - I reckon that all adds up to win number 10. > > A hollow victory. A car that couldn't lose (barring unreliability), that > didn't even conform to the racing series' technical regulations. > > KK > >

A car that couldn't loose. What about driver error, animals on track, weather, tyre failure(one team had seven punctures). Fatigue(driver, pit crew, car). No driver or car is ever guarenteed a win in any race. So many variables to take into consideration. As to conforming to regulations. If the officials allow it to race, its legit. If the other teams want to protest, they can. This is the second year and I haven't seen a court challenge to its legallity yet. It all boils down to money. How many more people are watching on TV or going to the tracks to see these cars, just because there is an Australian designed and built car racing? All motorsport has one purpose. $$$$$ If the Monaro puts bums on seats at the tracks, I see it as a good thing. Steve

"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > "J.D. Ellis" <[email hidden]> wrote in > news:3fbfddfa$0$22732$[email hidden]: > > Just to clarify...To race a GTS Viper, you first bought a GTS-R Viperand > then added your team's tweeks. To race a GTS Corvette, you got Pratt & > Miller to build a wider, longer version of the C5. Saleen then followed > the Corvette model and built their GTS prototype from the ground up as > well. I won't say who complained first about the Saleen... :) Considering they all have the same rulebook (and French scrutineers at Le Mans) to work with, I'd just say it's your usual sour grapes. ;-) The Viper was originally a GT1 car too, I believe, but elected to drop down to GT2 once Porsche reinterpreted the rules... The Ferrari, Viper, and Corvette are all production-derived race cars. The Saleen is a race car-derived "production" car. While one can argue semantics, it seems pretty obvious that the Saleen is not a high-volume production car modified for racing, per the ACO/IMSA rules. Pratt & Miller are a GM contractor, no different than when ORECA built Viper GTS-R's Just go enjoy the TPTCC mod! :-p :-D -jde

"J.D. Ellis" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:3fc2dddf$0$30684$[email hidden]: > Just go enjoy the TPTCC mod! :-p :-D > > -jde > I am and I will...:) dave henrie

"Steve Whitty" <stev_mazz NOSPAM at optusnet dot com dot au> wrote in message news:3fc2d8ae$0$20308$[email hidden]...

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> > > > > A hollow victory. A car that couldn't lose (barring unreliability), that > > didn't even conform to the racing series' technical regulations. > > As to conforming to regulations. If the officials allow it to race, its > legit. If the other teams want to protest, they can. This is the second > year and I haven't seen a court challenge to its legallity yet.

Sounds remarkably similar to the Michelin saga.... 'If the officials allow it to race, its legit'.... ? Just because the officials allow it to race, doesn't make it legit. It just means that allowing it to race serves some agenda which benefits the officials. A number of teams cried foul in the Monaro's first year... I imagine they decided not to bother this year because it was clear upon which side of the fence the officials sat. > It all boils down to money. How many more people are watching on TV or > going to the tracks to see these cars, just because there is an Australian > designed and built car racing? All motorsport has one purpose. $$$$$ > If the Monaro puts bums on seats at the tracks, I see it as a good thing. Funny, I thought the purpose of motorsport was racing. It's a sad day when a formula allows the racing to take a back seat to the $$$. KK

"Can't lose"? Obviously you haven't checked LAST year's results, Kasper! :) Bruce. "Kasper Kowalski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Why not? > > Let's look at the facts: > > > > 1) Venue = Mt. Panorama, Bathurst. > > 2) Event = Endurance motor race. > > 3) Driver's name = Peter Brock. > > 4) Finishing Position = 1st. > > 5) Number of previous first-places in endurance motor races held at > Bathurst > > = 9. > > > > Yep - I reckon that all adds up to win number 10. > > A hollow victory. A car that couldn't lose (barring unreliability), that > didn't even conform to the racing series' technical regulations. > > KK > >

Sadly, that is the name of modern motor-racing, Kasper, and has been so for at least two decades. "Kasper Kowalski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3fc2eb82$[email hidden]... > > Funny, I thought the purpose of motorsport was racing. It's a sad day whena > formula allows the racing to take a back seat to the $$$.

You keep saying this........ >>didn't even conform to the racing series' technical regulations.<< .....yet have not given a reason as to WHY it was racing, why NOBODY protested the cars and why NOBODY protested the results. Show me the CAMS technical regulations for the event which specifically go against the Monaro's - as entered - being ineligible. Obviously you must have them, or at least know the area(s) which preclude the Monaro? Bruce.

See, the following is the general description of the A Class.... Class A: For cars complying with the current technical regulations for; Australian Nations Cup � Group 1, FIA Series Grand Touring Cars (N-GT), British GTO, All Japan GT - Group 2, American Grand � Am (GT), Lamborghini Trophy. PROCAR Australia Pty Ltd, in conjunction with the CAMS reserve the right to invite vehicles from other Categories whose Technical Regulations are based on FIA Series N-GT regulations and a copy of such rules must be submitted at the time of the entry. From their web-site. Bruce.

"Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3fc2f23c$[email hidden]...

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> You keep saying this........ > > >>didn't even conform to the racing series' technical regulations.<< > > .....yet have not given a reason as to WHY it was racing, why NOBODY > protested the cars and why NOBODY protested the results. > > Show me the CAMS technical regulations for the event which specifically go > against the Monaro's - as entered - being ineligible. > Obviously you must have them, or at least know the area(s) which preclude > the Monaro?

Nations Cup/FIA-GT/etc are *production* categories. The Monaro 427 is not a production car... different engine, different drivetrain. The rules have been cleverly worded to allow the Monaro to compete, despite being entirely against the spirit of the series. KK

"Kasper Kowalski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3fc2f740$[email hidden]... > > The Monaro 427 is not a > production car... different engine, different drivetrain. > Technically speaking, doesn't the 911 GT3-RS use an engine not directly derived from the production engine? I seem to remember that being discussed when they were griping about the "illegal" M3-GTR. -jde

"J.D. Ellis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3fc3e534$0$89701$[email hidden]...

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> > "Kasper Kowalski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:3fc2f740$[email hidden]... > > > > The Monaro 427 is not a > > production car... different engine, different drivetrain. > > > > Technically speaking, doesn't the 911 GT3-RS use an engine not directly > derived from the production engine? I seem to remember that being

discussed > when they were griping about the "illegal" M3-GTR. Not sure... what sort of differences? Different block? KK

Unfortunately, Holden (Australian GM) has owned major motorsport here in Aus for a while now. It has become their own advertising campaign and no one seems to mind too much. Or has the power to stop them. Case in point - a few years back, testing was carried out on the front spoilers of the GM cars for parity - carried out by - wait for it - the Holden Dealer Team! LOL. "Kasper Kowalski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3fc2eb82$[email hidden]... > > Funny, I thought the purpose of motorsport was racing. It's a sad day whena > formula allows the racing to take a back seat to the $$$. > > KK > >

So this is the "real" Bathurst in your book now Bruce? So what's the V8 Supercar one then? Mate, it's gotta be part of the ATCC to qualify - in my book. Gee people get obsessed with their heroes and nice round numbers like "10"! :) "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Why not? > Let's look at the facts: > > 1) Venue = Mt. Panorama, Bathurst. > 2) Event = Endurance motor race. > 3) Driver's name = Peter Brock. > 4) Finishing Position = 1st. > 5) Number of previous first-places in endurance motor races held at

Bathurst

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> = 9. > > Yep - I reckon that all adds up to win number 10. > > Bruce. > > "Byron John Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > You're not really counting that as a "Bathurst" win are you Bruce? > > > > "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:3fc17c91$[email hidden]... > > > They certainly did....a 1-2 finish and the 10th. win at Panorama for > Peter > > > Perfect! > > > > > >

From what I have read on usenet, the car was "meant" to be a production car but this decision was conveniently changed after they built enough to race. And apparently when they worked out how much a road going car would end up costing to the public. "Kasper Kowalski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3fc2f740$[email hidden]... > Nations Cup/FIA-GT/etc are *production* categories. The Monaro 427 is nota > production car... different engine, different drivetrain. > > The rules have been cleverly worded to allow the Monaro to compete,despite > being entirely against the spirit of the series. > > KK > >

Well, Byron old mate, I've never really thought of the "V8 Supercars" as "real Bathurst" anyway. In MY book, real tin-top racing died there when the event was reduced to two makes and one class. The "Australian Touring Car Championship" with just Ford and Holden V8's? You've gotta be kidding?! This is a manufactured project, specifically designed for TV and nothing else. So, in MY book, the 24-hour is neither better nor worse than the ATCC - in fact, with its class break-up, it is certainly closer in format (yes, I know that the types of cars are different) to what the ATCC used to be like than the rubbish which passes as "touring car" racing today. Peter Brock is neither hero nor villain for me but is simply one of those drivers I associate with the days when I used to attend every bloody event at Oran Park, Warwick Farm, Catalina Park, Amaroo Park and Bathurst! But then that was when motor-sports were for two classes of people: competitors and track-side spectators. Bruce. "Byron John Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3fc51966$[email hidden]... > So this is the "real" Bathurst in your book now Bruce? So what's the V8 > Supercar one then? > > Mate, it's gotta be part of the ATCC to qualify - in my book. Gee people > get obsessed with their heroes and nice round numbers like "10"! :)

No argument from me, but.... Although the Holden/Ford only ATCC has become stale, it is still the ATCC. And what this really means is that the best of the aussie drivers, with a few international drivers mixed in, are there. Not so for the 24 hour race. The 24 hour race is too international, too liberal with the rules and most of all it's a one off. This particular win is nothing like Brocky"s "legitimate 9" and to say it is only cheapens those 9 in my opinion. And the man himself. No comparison. Let him grow old gracefully. It's like a 70s band trying to make a comeback! :) "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3fc5714f$[email hidden]... > Well, Byron old mate, I've never really thought of the "V8 Supercars" as > "real Bathurst" anyway. > In MY book, real tin-top racing died there when the event was reduced totwo

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> makes and one class. > The "Australian Touring Car Championship" with just Ford and Holden V8's? > You've gotta be kidding?! > This is a manufactured project, specifically designed for TV and nothing > else. > > So, in MY book, the 24-hour is neither better nor worse than the ATCC - in > fact, with its class break-up, it is certainly closer in format (yes, I

know > that the types of cars are different) to what the ATCC used to be likethan

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> the rubbish which passes as "touring car" racing today. > > Peter Brock is neither hero nor villain for me but is simply one of those > drivers I associate with the days when I used to attend every bloody event > at Oran Park, Warwick Farm, Catalina Park, Amaroo Park and Bathurst! > > But then that was when motor-sports were for two classes of people: > competitors and track-side spectators. > > Bruce. > > "Byron John Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:3fc51966$[email hidden]... > > So this is the "real" Bathurst in your book now Bruce? So what's the

V8 > > Supercar one then? > > > > Mate, it's gotta be part of the ATCC to qualify - in my book. Gee people > > get obsessed with their heroes and nice round numbers like "10"! :) > >

"Cheapens the other nine"?!! Gimme a break! Taking part in punting ANY car around Panorama for 24 hours is in no way "cheapening" any previous six-hour effort, irrespective of when it took place and in what type of car. Bruce. "Byron John Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > This particular win is nothing like Brocky"s "legitimate 9" and to say itis only cheapens those 9 in my opinion.

On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 16:43:08 GMT, "Byron John Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> No argument from me, but.... > Although the Holden/Ford only ATCC has become stale, it is still the >ATCC. And what this really means is that the best of the aussie drivers, >with a few international drivers mixed in, are there. Not so for the 24 hour >race. The 24 hour race is too international, too liberal with the rules and >most of all it's a one off. This particular win is nothing like Brocky"s >"legitimate 9" and to say it is only cheapens those 9 in my opinion. And the >man himself. No comparison. Let him grow old gracefully. It's like a 70s >band trying to make a comeback! :) > >

"too international, too liberal with the rules and most of all it's a one off." Sounds like the year that Bathurst was a round of the failed World Touring Car Championship.

All this 24 hour race is is a showcase for GM. They own it! Not a level playing field for the top runners at all. Joke. Don't tell me Bruce, that when they ran the 4 bangers there that you thought that was a legit "Bathurst" race as well? Anyway, so your saying that this 24 hour race is the new "Real Bathurst" race and that the V8 Supercar one is just another race at Bathurst? Gimme a break! :) "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3fc64929$[email hidden]...

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> "Cheapens the other nine"?!! > Gimme a break! > Taking part in punting ANY car around Panorama for 24 hours is in no way > "cheapening" any previous six-hour effort, irrespective of when it took > place and in what type of car. > > Bruce. > > "Byron John Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > This particular win is nothing like Brocky"s "legitimate 9" and to say

it > is only cheapens those 9 in my opinion. > >

Give it a rest, Byron. You know what you like; I know what I like. Leave it at that. BK "Byron John Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > All this 24 hour race is is a showcase for GM. They own it! Not a level > playing field for the top runners at all. Joke. > Don't tell me Bruce, that when they ran the 4 bangers there that you > thought that was a legit "Bathurst" race as well? > > Anyway, so your saying that this 24 hour race is the new "RealBathurst"

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> race and that the V8 Supercar one is just another race at Bathurst? > > Gimme a break! :) > > "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:3fc64929$[email hidden]... > > "Cheapens the other nine"?!! > > Gimme a break! > > Taking part in punting ANY car around Panorama for 24 hours is in no way > > "cheapening" any previous six-hour effort, irrespective of when it took > > place and in what type of car. > > > > Bruce. > > > > "Byron John Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > This particular win is nothing like Brocky"s "legitimate 9" and to say > it > > is only cheapens those 9 in my opinion. > > > > > >

Ok then. I'm counting this as my 10th usenet victory then. LOL. "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3fc7c9fe$[email hidden]...

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> Give it a rest, Byron. > You know what you like; I know what I like. > Leave it at that. > > BK > > "Byron John Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > All this 24 hour race is is a showcase for GM. They own it! Not a

level > > playing field for the top runners at all. Joke. > > Don't tell me Bruce, that when they ran the 4 bangers there thatyou

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> > thought that was a legit "Bathurst" race as well? > > > > Anyway, so your saying that this 24 hour race is the new "Real > Bathurst" > > race and that the V8 Supercar one is just another race at Bathurst? > > > > Gimme a break! :) > > > > "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:3fc64929$[email hidden]... > > > "Cheapens the other nine"?!! > > > Gimme a break! > > > Taking part in punting ANY car around Panorama for 24 hours is in no

way > > > "cheapening" any previous six-hour effort, irrespective of when ittook

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> > > place and in what type of car. > > > > > > Bruce. > > > > > > "Byron John Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > This particular win is nothing like Brocky"s "legitimate 9" and to

say

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> > it > > > is only cheapens those 9 in my opinion. > > > > > > > > > > > >