GPL on-line etiquette for slowpokes . . .

To stay, or not to stay -- that is the question. Here's the deal: I've seen a lot of posts recently with complaints about people who don't stay and finish a race on VROC. I have to admit that I am one of those slow people -- Watkins Glen is the only track where I'm really able to be competitive (I can regularly turn in sub-1:09 laps there, and even if I can't hit the 1:06 mark, I still feel like I can be racey, stay on the track, hold a line, not punt others, and stay out of the way of the fast cars). On other tracks, though, I sometimes find myself way off the mark and unable to really stay with a decent pace. On those tracks where I'm not so good, I often find myself simply *** the car; this sometimes happens even at places like the Glen, where I'm usually pretty consistent, too, and once the *** starts, I really feel like I'm more out of control than in control -- especially when I start muffing corners and experiencing runoffs. After a couple of these sort of runoffs, or after I find myself serving as a chicane that the leaders have to contend with, I really feel like I'm getting in the way of the true competitors -- and running the risk of ruining the experience for others. Plus, after two or three runoffs, I also feel that if it had been a real race, I would have trashed my car so badly that I would be a DNF anyway -- so, for the sake of realism, staying in the race is ludicrous to me in those circumstances. Part of racing is preserving the hardware so you can be there at the end of a race, but if I just bounced off an armco and did a couple of end-over-end flips, it's hard for me to feel like I should even be ALLOWED to finish the race, even if "CTRL-R" is enabled. So, in these instances, I often just punch out of the race, exiting with my tail between my legs and my ego bruised. Am I wrong in feeling this way? Should I go ahead and stay with it, regardless of how ludicrous the situation is? Should I go ahead and overlook the fact that I would have trashed the hardware too badly to continue the race and go ahead and use the "CTRL-R" option? Do I go ahead and serve as an impediment to others when I'm too far off the pace, or not up to my usual levels of consistency? I know that the pat answer to some of these questions is, "Practice more so you'll be fast enough and then you won't get in people's way," but I think that's an unrealistic approach, frankly. If a race on VROC is listed as a "Trainer" race, then what better place to train? Also, on the issue of staying on the pace, I've mentioned several times about several experiences I've had on-line with "hotshoes" who can turn in 1:05's at the Glen, but can't seem to be able to make a clean start, pull off a pass with no incident, or come up on a slower car without punting them. I may be slow, but, frankly, I have almost NEVER punted someone else when braking for a corner -- I treat on-line racing as the real thing; if I brake a little earlier when on-line than I do against the AI, it's because there's more at stake for me and for the guy (or gal) I might be punting. That's simple courtesy, and, frankly, slow cars on the track ARE a reality that you have to deal with in real racing, so you should be ready -- and prepared -- to deal with them in virtual racing environments, too. So, the bottom line is, what's the proper etiquette for these situations? Somebody fill me in, please, because it sounds to me like I'm not alone in this. Thanks in advance, and my apologies to those whom I've raced against in the past! <G> -- John Bodin Publisher, The IRL Insider Magazine http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/

John, I think this is more oriented towards those that may exit immediately after their first inncident rather than those who are trying to finish the race, but have multiple spins, etc. and feel that their race is over. However, IMO, you should NEVER feel like you have to exit a race just because you happen to be slower than others in the race. You started it, everyone should afford you the opportunity to finish it. Unless someone is truly a menace as in driving all over the road, not holding anything resembling a line, going backwards, etc. Unfortunately, thats life I think. There really aren't any consquences for them if the "buy" it, or force someone into the wall, etc. So they can get away with it. Is it great online racing eqtiqutte? I would think not. Folks like that may be great hotlappers, but obviously they ain't great racers [reminds me of Paul Tracy...really fast, but does anyone really want to race him?!]

Have you given F2's and F3's a try ? They are much easier to handle. And stay ONLINE. Its your game as much as anyone else's . Cheers =:-D

John Just hold your racing line when being approached by a faster car. They will get around you at the appropriate time. It makes thing worse if you try and get off line to let them them by.

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> To stay, or not to stay -- that is the question. > Here's the deal: I've seen a lot of posts recently with complaints about > people who don't stay and finish a race on VROC. > I have to admit that I am one of those slow people -- Watkins Glen is the > only track where I'm really able to be competitive (I can regularly turn in > sub-1:09 laps there, and even if I can't hit the 1:06 mark, I still feel > like I can be racey, stay on the track, hold a line, not punt others, and > stay out of the way of the fast cars). On other tracks, though, I sometimes > find myself way off the mark and unable to really stay with a decent pace. > On those tracks where I'm not so good, I often find myself simply *** > the car; this sometimes happens even at places like the Glen, where I'm > usually pretty consistent, too, and once the *** starts, I really feel > like I'm more out of control than in control -- especially when I start > muffing corners and experiencing runoffs. > After a couple of these sort of runoffs, or after I find myself serving as a > chicane that the leaders have to contend with, I really feel like I'm > getting in the way of the true competitors -- and running the risk of > ruining the experience for others. Plus, after two or three runoffs, I also > feel that if it had been a real race, I would have trashed my car so badly > that I would be a DNF anyway -- so, for the sake of realism, staying in the > race is ludicrous to me in those circumstances. Part of racing is > preserving the hardware so you can be there at the end of a race, but if I > just bounced off an armco and did a couple of end-over-end flips, it's hard > for me to feel like I should even be ALLOWED to finish the race, even if > "CTRL-R" is enabled. > So, in these instances, I often just punch out of the race, exiting with my > tail between my legs and my ego bruised. > Am I wrong in feeling this way? Should I go ahead and stay with it, > regardless of how ludicrous the situation is? Should I go ahead and > overlook the fact that I would have trashed the hardware too badly to > continue the race and go ahead and use the "CTRL-R" option? Do I go ahead > and serve as an impediment to others when I'm too far off the pace, or not > up to my usual levels of consistency? > I know that the pat answer to some of these questions is, "Practice more so > you'll be fast enough and then you won't get in people's way," but I think > that's an unrealistic approach, frankly. If a race on VROC is listed as a > "Trainer" race, then what better place to train? > Also, on the issue of staying on the pace, I've mentioned several times > about several experiences I've had on-line with "hotshoes" who can turn in > 1:05's at the Glen, but can't seem to be able to make a clean start, pull > off a pass with no incident, or come up on a slower car without punting > them. I may be slow, but, frankly, I have almost NEVER punted someone else > when braking for a corner -- I treat on-line racing as the real thing; if I > brake a little earlier when on-line than I do against the AI, it's because > there's more at stake for me and for the guy (or gal) I might be punting. > That's simple courtesy, and, frankly, slow cars on the track ARE a reality > that you have to deal with in real racing, so you should be ready -- and > prepared -- to deal with them in virtual racing environments, too. > So, the bottom line is, what's the proper etiquette for these situations? > Somebody fill me in, please, because it sounds to me like I'm not alone in > this. > Thanks in advance, and my apologies to those whom I've raced against in the > past! <G> > -- John Bodin > Publisher, The IRL Insider Magazine > http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/

On Sat, 4 Sep 1999 19:45:17 -0500, "John Bodin" >To stay, or not to stay -- that is the question. several months ago you letter could have been written by me - word-for-word. if not in word, in mental approach. so with all my months of experience, here is the answer you've been waiting for; DON'T LEAVE!! most of the drivers are very understanding and very helpful, and they have been there before. as another reply said "hold your line, the faster guys will find the place to pass" like any real driving, the guy thats hits someone in the rear is AT FAULT! not you. once you overcome the fear of faster cars in your mirrors, your confidence builds and you lap times drop. just don't ignore your mirrors! Alison Hine told me she did over 500 laps at monza when the sim first came out. It takes time, dont force your learning curve, it will get better naturally. who said 'sometimes you must slow down to go faster'? its true! if you leave how will you improve? just relax, have fun, enjoy and DON'T LEAVE :) hope to see you on the track, and eventually on the podium! Bo Bruce

On Sat, 4 Sep 1999 19:45:17 -0500, "John Bodin" >To stay, or not to stay -- that is the question. john - several months ago your letter could have (was) written almost word for word by me! if not the words the mental approach is identical. so with my months of experience here is the answer you are waiting for. DON'T LEAVE! most (99%) of the drivers on line are more than understanding. helpful and have been there before (with me :) - another posted reply says it quite well - hold your line the faster cars will find the place to pass. what happens (alot) is the less than professional types end up driving your tailpipes thru windshield...guess what? just like real driving on almost any road, the guy doing the hitting is at fault! NOT YOU! so why should you leave? if you leave and this is the normal level you have attained, how do you expect to improve? the more you race, the more you will adjust to fast cars in your mirrors, and the more comfortable you will become with NOT WORRYING about your driving, and just drive. when that happens you will begin to notice your lap times dropping! dont force your learning curve by trying to be faster. it will come, with lots of practice. Alison Hine told me she ran over 500 laps at monza (alone) before she felt she was 'getting it'. and she didn't jump to another track until she was funtional at one! have fun, take your time, most of - don't leave!!!!! hope to see you on the track....and someday on the podium! Bo Bruce

sorry for multi post.....

I can only reinforce what others have said, DON'T LEAVE! Stay to the bitter end, no matter how far back you may finish, and chat with the other drivers for a bit. Sounds like you're a conscientious, thinking driver and lord knows they are always welcome. Hope to see you on a track sometime soon. Oh yeah, keep practicing, the speed will come. Zog

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> To stay, or not to stay -- that is the question. > Here's the deal: I've seen a lot of posts recently with complaints about > people who don't stay and finish a race on VROC. > I have to admit that I am one of those slow people -- Watkins Glen is the > only track where I'm really able to be competitive (I can regularly turn in > sub-1:09 laps there, and even if I can't hit the 1:06 mark, I still feel > like I can be racey, stay on the track, hold a line, not punt others, and > stay out of the way of the fast cars). On other tracks, though, I sometimes > find myself way off the mark and unable to really stay with a decent pace. > On those tracks where I'm not so good, I often find myself simply *** > the car; this sometimes happens even at places like the Glen, where I'm > usually pretty consistent, too, and once the *** starts, I really feel > like I'm more out of control than in control -- especially when I start > muffing corners and experiencing runoffs. > After a couple of these sort of runoffs, or after I find myself serving as a > chicane that the leaders have to contend with, I really feel like I'm > getting in the way of the true competitors -- and running the risk of > ruining the experience for others. Plus, after two or three runoffs, I also > feel that if it had been a real race, I would have trashed my car so badly > that I would be a DNF anyway -- so, for the sake of realism, staying in the > race is ludicrous to me in those circumstances. Part of racing is > preserving the hardware so you can be there at the end of a race, but if I > just bounced off an armco and did a couple of end-over-end flips, it's hard > for me to feel like I should even be ALLOWED to finish the race, even if > "CTRL-R" is enabled. > So, in these instances, I often just punch out of the race, exiting with my > tail between my legs and my ego bruised. > Am I wrong in feeling this way? Should I go ahead and stay with it, > regardless of how ludicrous the situation is? Should I go ahead and > overlook the fact that I would have trashed the hardware too badly to > continue the race and go ahead and use the "CTRL-R" option? Do I go ahead > and serve as an impediment to others when I'm too far off the pace, or not > up to my usual levels of consistency? > I know that the pat answer to some of these questions is, "Practice more so > you'll be fast enough and then you won't get in people's way," but I think > that's an unrealistic approach, frankly. If a race on VROC is listed as a > "Trainer" race, then what better place to train? > Also, on the issue of staying on the pace, I've mentioned several times > about several experiences I've had on-line with "hotshoes" who can turn in > 1:05's at the Glen, but can't seem to be able to make a clean start, pull > off a pass with no incident, or come up on a slower car without punting > them. I may be slow, but, frankly, I have almost NEVER punted someone else > when braking for a corner -- I treat on-line racing as the real thing; if I > brake a little earlier when on-line than I do against the AI, it's because > there's more at stake for me and for the guy (or gal) I might be punting. > That's simple courtesy, and, frankly, slow cars on the track ARE a reality > that you have to deal with in real racing, so you should be ready -- and > prepared -- to deal with them in virtual racing environments, too. > So, the bottom line is, what's the proper etiquette for these situations? > Somebody fill me in, please, because it sounds to me like I'm not alone in > this. > Thanks in advance, and my apologies to those whom I've raced against in the > past! <G> > -- John Bodin > Publisher, The IRL Insider Magazine > http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/

I think you should do what you feel like doing! Aim to stay, but if it's a totally rubbish experience after you feel you have given it your best shot, and you want to leave... No better place AFAIAC. I've improved significantly since starting online racing. I think the motivation to get better is more powerfull online. Simply pracicing against the AI can be frustrating, although it is obviously still good to practice. I agree that the faster drivers should sometimes be more considerate to slower cars. A while ago at Zandy a guy berated me for 'blocking' him during practice - "I'm 5s a lap faster than you" he said, but apparently that 5s wasn't enough to let him make a clean pass - he just ended up ramming me from behind. I don't think there is a defined ettiquette. You just have to go with how you feel. I don't like leaving races where I'm not doing so well, but sometimes I will anyway - online racing for me is meant to be an enjoyable experience, if I'm really not enjoying it then I see no point in staying. -- Suck The Goat

This statement is probably the best statement for clean safe racing. The only time you should even consider pulling off the racing line is if you have just spun and are starting to get back up to speed. Or, If you have a mechanical problem and can't get up to full racing speed. By running at "Your normal racing speed" but someone behind you is faster, and you try to get out of their way... You are doing something that is very unexpected and more times then not, you become a moving target with the sole intention of being hit. It's the passing driver that has the responsibility to pass, not the being passed cars responsibility. Next, Just as you come to a stop after spinning, The drivers coming up on you will have a path already figured out and will take that route. If you move before traffic has passed, you again become a moving target with the sole intention of being hit. Wait till there is a big enough break in traffic to get straitened out and back to racing. Mike

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> John > Just hold your racing line when being approached by a faster car. They will get > around you at the appropriate time. It makes thing worse if you try and get off > line to let them them by. > > To stay, or not to stay -- that is the question. > > Here's the deal: I've seen a lot of posts recently with complaints about > > people who don't stay and finish a race on VROC. > > I have to admit that I am one of those slow people -- Watkins Glen is the > > only track where I'm really able to be competitive (I can regularly turn in > > sub-1:09 laps there, and even if I can't hit the 1:06 mark, I still feel > > like I can be racey, stay on the track, hold a line, not punt others, and > > stay out of the way of the fast cars). On other tracks, though, I sometimes > > find myself way off the mark and unable to really stay with a decent pace. > > On those tracks where I'm not so good, I often find myself simply *** > > the car; this sometimes happens even at places like the Glen, where I'm > > usually pretty consistent, too, and once the *** starts, I really feel > > like I'm more out of control than in control -- especially when I start > > muffing corners and experiencing runoffs. > > After a couple of these sort of runoffs, or after I find myself serving as a > > chicane that the leaders have to contend with, I really feel like I'm > > getting in the way of the true competitors -- and running the risk of > > ruining the experience for others. Plus, after two or three runoffs, I also > > feel that if it had been a real race, I would have trashed my car so badly > > that I would be a DNF anyway -- so, for the sake of realism, staying in the > > race is ludicrous to me in those circumstances. Part of racing is > > preserving the hardware so you can be there at the end of a race, but if I > > just bounced off an armco and did a couple of end-over-end flips, it's hard > > for me to feel like I should even be ALLOWED to finish the race, even if > > "CTRL-R" is enabled. > > So, in these instances, I often just punch out of the race, exiting with my > > tail between my legs and my ego bruised. > > Am I wrong in feeling this way? Should I go ahead and stay with it, > > regardless of how ludicrous the situation is? Should I go ahead and > > overlook the fact that I would have trashed the hardware too badly to > > continue the race and go ahead and use the "CTRL-R" option? Do I go ahead > > and serve as an impediment to others when I'm too far off the pace, or not > > up to my usual levels of consistency? > > I know that the pat answer to some of these questions is, "Practice more so > > you'll be fast enough and then you won't get in people's way," but I think > > that's an unrealistic approach, frankly. If a race on VROC is listed as a > > "Trainer" race, then what better place to train? > > Also, on the issue of staying on the pace, I've mentioned several times > > about several experiences I've had on-line with "hotshoes" who can turn in > > 1:05's at the Glen, but can't seem to be able to make a clean start, pull > > off a pass with no incident, or come up on a slower car without punting > > them. I may be slow, but, frankly, I have almost NEVER punted someone else > > when braking for a corner -- I treat on-line racing as the real thing; if I > > brake a little earlier when on-line than I do against the AI, it's because > > there's more at stake for me and for the guy (or gal) I might be punting. > > That's simple courtesy, and, frankly, slow cars on the track ARE a reality > > that you have to deal with in real racing, so you should be ready -- and > > prepared -- to deal with them in virtual racing environments, too. > > So, the bottom line is, what's the proper etiquette for these situations? > > Somebody fill me in, please, because it sounds to me like I'm not alone in > > this. > > Thanks in advance, and my apologies to those whom I've raced against in the > > past! <G> > > -- John Bodin > > Publisher, The IRL Insider Magazine > > http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/

-- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? ========================================= Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

I beg to differ. For Monza, For me, F1 is too easy compared to F3. I feel that F1 is so ease to drive at Monza that it doesn't take much skill at all to make fast laps. Where as F3 you have to use every bit of skill that you have learned to be fast there. Probably the better statement would be... F1, F2, and F3 are three different types of racing cars. Each one needing a different style of driving and different degrease of environmental awareness. Each one needing a lot of awareness but F1 needs less then F3 just because F3 cars run so much closer to each other then F1. I have learned more about the physics of driving a car with F3 then I did with F1. And that goes side by side with learning what each change to the chassis does. Because of this, I think that the F3 drivers are much better drivers in F3 cars then F1 drivers are in F1 cars. I also think that F3 drivers are better prepared to drive the F1 cars then the F1 drivers are prepared to drive F3 (or even F1 ;-) As a side note, The NASCAR fans would probably like F3 racing beter then F1 just because of how close the racing is in F3. Mike > Have you given F2's and F3's a try ? They are much easier to handle. > And stay ONLINE. Its your game as much as anyone else's . > Cheers =:-D -- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? ========================================= Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

To sum this up... I think the new drivers to GPL should start out with F3 racing and learn how to drive at speed and learn what racing is all about. Then make the transition to F2 racing. The only true difference between these types of cars would then be just the added HP. Since you already know a lot about driving, safety, and racing close, Driving the F2 racing would be a whole lot better. After getting used to the F2 power and getting back into the swing of racing side by side, and such, then you should start F1. The differences between F2 and F1 would then be just the added power. A driver that went this route (I sincerely believe) would be a true Profesional driver. Starting from the F1 cars and staying with the F1 cars, I don't think makes for a Pro or even mediocre driver. I think going the route of one type of class only makes for a fast hot lapper. He'll gain experiance driving fast and gain experiance getting passed and passing, but I don't think he'll learn much of anything out side of that. Just my opinion, Mike -- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? ========================================= Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

A newbie question. I'm trying to figure out the relationship between F1, F2, F3 to the Novice, Intermediate, Pro, GP settings in GPL. I've driven the different classes in GPL but don't notice the differences in HP in the cars, just the race length, damage settings, etc. Thanks, Gene

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> To sum this up... I think the new drivers to GPL should start out with > F3 racing and learn how to drive at speed and learn what racing is all > about. Then make the transition to F2 racing. The only true difference > between these types of cars would then be just the added HP. Since you > already know a lot about driving, safety, and racing close, Driving the > F2 racing would be a whole lot better. After getting used to the F2 > power and getting back into the swing of racing side by side, and such, > then you should start F1. The differences between F2 and F1 would then > be just the added power. > A driver that went this route (I sincerely believe) would be a true > Profesional driver. Starting from the F1 cars and staying with the F1 > cars, I don't think makes for a Pro or even mediocre driver. I think > going the route of one type of class only makes for a fast hot lapper. > He'll gain experiance driving fast and gain experiance getting passed > and passing, but I don't think he'll learn much of anything out side of > that. > Just my opinion, > Mike > -- > ========================================= > Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? > ========================================= > Racing online with the help of...... > Race Communications Association > http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html > Holodyne Engineering > Mystic Music > (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

VERY good advice, Michael -- I do try to observe these basic rules of etiquette. Had a great GP3 race at the Glen last night, in fact, and I did indeed use many of these courtesies. It was great fun, BTW -- thanks to the chaps who lapped me repeatedly! <G> In this instance, I grabbed a bad setup (with HORRIBLE gear ratios), so I was only topping out at about 102 mph; this gave me PLENTY of opportunity to serve as a moving chicane, but I stayed in until the end, caused no accidents, and generally played well with others! <G> -- JB

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> This statement is probably the best statement for clean safe racing. >The only time you should even consider pulling off the racing line is if >you have just spun and are starting to get back up to speed. Or, If you >have a mechanical problem and can't get up to full racing speed. By >running at "Your normal racing speed" but someone behind you is faster, >and you try to get out of their way... You are doing something that is >very unexpected and more times then not, you become a moving target with >the sole intention of being hit. It's the passing driver that has the >responsibility to pass, not the being passed cars responsibility. > Next, Just as you come to a stop after spinning, The drivers coming up >on you will have a path already figured out and will take that route. >If you move before traffic has passed, you again become a moving target >with the sole intention of being hit. Wait till there is a big enough >break in traffic to get straitened out and back to racing. >Mike >> John >> Just hold your racing line when being approached by a faster car. They

will get >> around you at the appropriate time. It makes thing worse if you try and get off

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>> line to let them them by. >> > To stay, or not to stay -- that is the question. >> > Here's the deal: I've seen a lot of posts recently with complaints

about >> > people who don't stay and finish a race on VROC. >> > I have to admit that I am one of those slow people -- Watkins Glen is the >> > only track where I'm really able to be competitive (I can regularly turn in >> > sub-1:09 laps there, and even if I can't hit the 1:06 mark, I still feel >> > like I can be racey, stay on the track, hold a line, not punt others, and >> > stay out of the way of the fast cars). On other tracks, though, I sometimes >> > find myself way off the mark and unable to really stay with a decent pace. >> > On those tracks where I'm not so good, I often find myself simply *** >> > the car; this sometimes happens even at places like the Glen, where I'm >> > usually pretty consistent, too, and once the *** starts, I really feel >> > like I'm more out of control than in control -- especially when I start >> > muffing corners and experiencing runoffs. >> > After a couple of these sort of runoffs, or after I find myself serving as a >> > chicane that the leaders have to contend with, I really feel like I'm >> > getting in the way of the true competitors -- and running the risk of >> > ruining the experience for others. Plus, after two or three runoffs, I also >> > feel that if it had been a real race, I would have trashed my car so badly >> > that I would be a DNF anyway -- so, for the sake of realism, staying in the >> > race is ludicrous to me in those circumstances. Part of racing is >> > preserving the hardware so you can be there at the end of a race, but if I >> > just bounced off an armco and did a couple of end-over-end flips, it's hard >> > for me to feel like I should even be ALLOWED to finish the race, even if >> > "CTRL-R" is enabled. >> > So, in these instances, I often just punch out of the race, exiting with my >> > tail between my legs and my ego bruised. >> > Am I wrong in feeling this way? Should I go ahead and stay with it, >> > regardless of how ludicrous the situation is? Should I go ahead and >> > overlook the fact that I would have trashed the hardware too badly to >> > continue the race and go ahead and use the "CTRL-R" option? Do I go ahead >> > and serve as an impediment to others when I'm too far off the pace, or not >> > up to my usual levels of consistency? >> > I know that the pat answer to some of these questions is, "Practice more so >> > you'll be fast enough and then you won't get in people's way," but I think >> > that's an unrealistic approach, frankly. If a race on VROC is listed as a >> > "Trainer" race, then what better place to train? >> > Also, on the issue of staying on the pace, I've mentioned several times >> > about several experiences I've had on-line with "hotshoes" who can turn in >> > 1:05's at the Glen, but can't seem to be able to make a clean start, pull >> > off a pass with no incident, or come up on a slower car without punting >> > them. I may be slow, but, frankly, I have almost NEVER punted someone else >> > when braking for a corner -- I treat on-line racing as the real thing; if I >> > brake a little earlier when on-line than I do against the AI, it's because >> > there's more at stake for me and for the guy (or gal) I might be punting. >> > That's simple courtesy, and, frankly, slow cars on the track ARE a reality >> > that you have to deal with in real racing, so you should be ready -- and >> > prepared -- to deal with them in virtual racing environments, too. >> > So, the bottom line is, what's the proper etiquette for these situations? >> > Somebody fill me in, please, because it sounds to me like I'm not alone in >> > this. >> > Thanks in advance, and my apologies to those whom I've raced against in the

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>> > past! <G> >> > -- John Bodin >> > Publisher, The IRL Insider Magazine >> > http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/ >-- >========================================= >Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? >========================================= >Racing online with the help of...... >Race Communications Association >http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html >Holodyne Engineering >Mystic Music >(have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

That's exactly what those settings are... Race distances. The differences between the F1, F2, F3 are not distances but (In GPL terms) engine HP. F1 is the GP car, F2 is the advanced trainer car, F3 is the basic trainer car. GPL off line racing you can only race a GP car in a race with the other AI cars. You can only drive the F2 or F3 in training mode which is with out any AI on the track. However, If you edit your player.ini file you can race against the AI off line in any Fx car. Online using the GPL-GSB application, you can have it temporarily edit your player.ini file for you and race any Fx car. For instructions on how to edit your ini files manually, go to [link lost in import] Go to the "F3 League" section and then to the link that says "How to get set up for F3 (or F2) racing". That will bring you to a page that describes in detail how to do it. It's really very easy and quick to do :) Mike

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> A newbie question. I'm trying to figure out the relationship between F1, F2, > F3 to the Novice, Intermediate, Pro, GP settings in GPL. I've driven the > different classes in GPL but don't notice the differences in HP in the cars, > just the race length, damage settings, etc. > Thanks, > Gene > > To sum this up... I think the new drivers to GPL should start out with > > F3 racing and learn how to drive at speed and learn what racing is all > > about. Then make the transition to F2 racing. The only true difference > > between these types of cars would then be just the added HP. Since you > > already know a lot about driving, safety, and racing close, Driving the > > F2 racing would be a whole lot better. After getting used to the F2 > > power and getting back into the swing of racing side by side, and such, > > then you should start F1. The differences between F2 and F1 would then > > be just the added power. > > A driver that went this route (I sincerely believe) would be a true > > Profesional driver. Starting from the F1 cars and staying with the F1 > > cars, I don't think makes for a Pro or even mediocre driver. I think > > going the route of one type of class only makes for a fast hot lapper. > > He'll gain experiance driving fast and gain experiance getting passed > > and passing, but I don't think he'll learn much of anything out side of > > that. > > Just my opinion, > > Mike > > -- > > ========================================= > > Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? > > ========================================= > > Racing online with the help of...... > > Race Communications Association > > http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html > > Holodyne Engineering > > Mystic Music > > (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

-- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? ========================================= Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

GREAT advice, Bo -- and, ironically, my main problem when racing on-line is because I probably spend TOO much time watching the mirrors. Being acutely aware of the fact that there are faster drivers on the track, I ALWAYS check the mirrors as I approach a turn, and sometimes I find myself doing so at the wrong moment, or missing a braking point because I was watching the mirrors and not the road -- which is often the cause of my occasional runoffs. It sounds like "STAY" is the answer, though -- and thanks again for the advice! - JB

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>On Sat, 4 Sep 1999 19:45:17 -0500, "John Bodin" >>To stay, or not to stay -- that is the question. >several months ago you letter could have been written by me - >word-for-word. if not in word, in mental approach. >so with all my months of experience, here is the answer you've been >waiting for; >DON'T LEAVE!! >most of the drivers are very understanding and very helpful, and they >have been there before. >as another reply said "hold your line, the faster guys will find the >place to pass" >like any real driving, the guy thats hits someone in the rear is AT >FAULT! not you. >once you overcome the fear of faster cars in your mirrors, your >confidence builds and you lap times drop. just don't ignore your >mirrors! >Alison Hine told me she did over 500 laps at monza when the sim first >came out. It takes time, dont force your learning curve, it will get >better naturally. who said 'sometimes you must slow down to go >faster'? its true! >if you leave how will you improve? just relax, have fun, enjoy and >DON'T LEAVE :) >hope to see you on the track, and eventually on the podium! >Bo Bruce >> Publisher, The IRL Insider Magazine >> http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/

>> To stay, or not to stay -- that is the question. >[s] >> Am I wrong in feeling this way? Should I go ahead and stay with it, >> regardless of how ludicrous the situation is? Should I go ahead and >> overlook the fact that I would have trashed the hardware too badly to >> continue the race and go ahead and use the "CTRL-R" option? Do I go ahead >> and serve as an impediment to others when I'm too far off the pace, or not >> up to my usual levels of consistency? >I think you should do what you feel like doing! Aim to stay, but if it's >a totally rubbish experience after you feel you have given it your best >shot, and you want to leave... Seems like good, sound advice! AMEN! I agree wholeheartedly on this -- I've made more improvements since I started racing on-line that I did with months of hotlapping and racing against the AI. THIS is VERY good advice, I think. This is definitely an issue -- the fast drivers need to realize that racing and hotlapping are VERY different beasts. Then again, real drivers have problems with this in the real world, too -- Paul Tracy is one example of a good, fast driver who often becomes just another bonehead hotlapper in the heat of battle. The point is, I think, that there are problems at both extremes -- a poor, slow driver is no more of an impediment than a fast driver who is a poor racer. In other words, there ARE no absolutes! <G>

It looks like a great number of racers agree with me about not leaving races prematurely( Also see my post "VROC.... why bother") Unfortunately I just haven't had the chance to hook up with them in my limited amount of online races. Reading others posts about the experiences they have had makes me think about maybe giving it another try. I just don't have a lot of time to devote to this and it would be nice to get a full race sometime. Even if I finish LAST Joe .

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> On Sat, 4 Sep 1999 19:45:17 -0500, "John Bodin" > >To stay, or not to stay -- that is the question. > several months ago you letter could have been written by me - > word-for-word. if not in word, in mental approach. > so with all my months of experience, here is the answer you've been > waiting for; > DON'T LEAVE!! > most of the drivers are very understanding and very helpful, and they > have been there before. > as another reply said "hold your line, the faster guys will find the > place to pass" > like any real driving, the guy thats hits someone in the rear is AT > FAULT! not you. > once you overcome the fear of faster cars in your mirrors, your > confidence builds and you lap times drop. just don't ignore your > mirrors! > Alison Hine told me she did over 500 laps at monza when the sim first > came out. It takes time, dont force your learning curve, it will get > better naturally. who said 'sometimes you must slow down to go > faster'? its true! > if you leave how will you improve? just relax, have fun, enjoy and > DON'T LEAVE :) > hope to see you on the track, and eventually on the podium! > Bo Bruce > > Publisher, The IRL Insider Magazine > > http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/

That's where I finished last night, but it was a blast! -- JB >It looks like a great number of racers agree with me about not leaving races

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>prematurely( Also see my post "VROC.... why bother") Unfortunately I just >haven't had the chance to hook up with them in my limited amount of online >races. Reading others posts about the experiences they have had makes me >think about maybe giving it another try. I just don't have a lot of time to >devote to this and it would be nice to get a full race sometime. Even if I >finish LAST >Joe >. >> On Sat, 4 Sep 1999 19:45:17 -0500, "John Bodin" >> >To stay, or not to stay -- that is the question. >> several months ago you letter could have been written by me - >> word-for-word. if not in word, in mental approach. >> so with all my months of experience, here is the answer you've been >> waiting for; >> DON'T LEAVE!! >> most of the drivers are very understanding and very helpful, and they >> have been there before. >> as another reply said "hold your line, the faster guys will find the >> place to pass" >> like any real driving, the guy thats hits someone in the rear is AT >> FAULT! not you. >> once you overcome the fear of faster cars in your mirrors, your >> confidence builds and you lap times drop. just don't ignore your >> mirrors! >> Alison Hine told me she did over 500 laps at monza when the sim first >> came out. It takes time, dont force your learning curve, it will get >> better naturally. who said 'sometimes you must slow down to go >> faster'? its true! >> if you leave how will you improve? just relax, have fun, enjoy and >> DON'T LEAVE :) >> hope to see you on the track, and eventually on the podium! >> Bo Bruce >> > Publisher, The IRL Insider Magazine >> > http://irlinsider.adnetweb.com/

good point, but here is an advice for the faster cars: watch the driver in front of you, before you start a pass - be SURE that it will be a successful pass! i got punted by a lotus at kyalami/crowthorne yesterday, because he thought i got off the line - he didn't knew how to take that turn in the brabham ;-) I back off normally when I am being passed by someone and i feel that he will punt me if i don't do so. but it really annoys me that a lot of hotlappers just turn their laps and rely on all others backing off when being passed. Lio

Even if you have read it once before, go back and re-read Alison's OnLine Driving tips at http://vroc.net/html/common/driving.htm % > Just hold your racing line when being approached by a faster car. They will get % > around you at the appropriate time. It makes thing worse if you try and get off % > line to let them them by. % good point, but here is an advice for the faster cars: watch the driver % in front of you, before you start a pass - be SURE that it will be a % successful pass! i got punted by a lotus at kyalami/crowthorne % yesterday, because he thought i got off the line - he didn't knew how to % take that turn in the brabham ;-) I back off normally when I am being % passed by someone and i feel that he will punt me if i don't do so. but % it really annoys me that a lot of hotlappers just turn their laps and % rely on all others backing off when being passed. % Lio -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Finally,someone has made sense of the should I or shouldn't quit the race thread. Enjoying it sure seems like a logical approach to take. As for holding your line or moving over and letting a faster car by,I'm still convinced that it is the responsibility of the faster car to find a clean way by. But it's our responsibility not to block. If there is more than one racing line,then move to the slower one. JA Willstein

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> I beg to differ. For Monza, For me, F1 is too easy compared to F3. I >feel that F1 is so ease to drive at Monza that it doesn't take much >skill at all to make fast laps. Where as F3 you have to use every bit >of skill that you have learned to be fast there. > Probably the better statement would be... F1, F2, and F3 are three >different types of racing cars.

And that >goes side by side with learning what each change to the chassis does. >Because of this, I think that the F3 drivers are much better drivers in >F3 cars then F1 drivers are in F1 cars. I also think that F3 drivers >are better prepared to drive the F1 cars then the F1 drivers are >prepared to drive F3 (or even F1 ;-) Mike, We all know how much you enjoy racing F3 and F2 cars. But I can't agree with your statements that F3 racing is better than F1 racing just because the cars race closer together. The fact is that they're just that much easier to drive. I've been hooked up in F1 races where I battled a few cars just about all race long. True,that doesn't happen all that often,but as my driving becomes more consistent,I'm able to race with more cars. Personally, I find F3 cars way to slow to enjoy racing them. I used them for more than a month as a gpl learning tool. JA Willstein

> As for holding your line or moving over and letting a faster car by,I'm >still convinced that it is the responsibility of the faster car to find a >clean way by. But it's our responsibility not to block. If there is more >than one racing line,then move to the slower one. Only problem is, that the slower drivers are a _lot_ slower (I assume you're talking about backmarkers here). Mostly that is because they crash about every corner. If that's the case, it is kinda difficult to pass such a driver the normal way.... The people with the ability to handle the car so you can pass them normally are rarely backmarkers, with the short distances used on VROC. Remco

To sum this up, in F3 you learn to be smooth and control slides more precisely. I think you're mostly right, _MOST_ of the people who are driving F1 cars don't have the skill in the F1 level and _they would_ learn a lot with F3.

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> I beg to differ. For Monza, For me, F1 is too easy compared to F3. I >feel that F1 is so ease to drive at Monza that it doesn't take much >skill at all to make fast laps. Where as F3 you have to use every bit >of skill that you have learned to be fast there. > Probably the better statement would be... F1, F2, and F3 are three >different types of racing cars. Each one needing a different style of >driving and different degrease of environmental awareness. Each one >needing a lot of awareness but F1 needs less then F3 just because F3 >cars run so much closer to each other then F1. I have learned more >about the physics of driving a car with F3 then I did with F1. And that >goes side by side with learning what each change to the chassis does. >Because of this, I think that the F3 drivers are much better drivers in >F3 cars then F1 drivers are in F1 cars. I also think that F3 drivers >are better prepared to drive the F1 cars then the F1 drivers are >prepared to drive F3 (or even F1 ;-) > As a side note, The NASCAR fans would probably like F3 racing beter >then F1 just because of how close the racing is in F3. >Mike >> Have you given F2's and F3's a try ? They are much easier to handle. >> And stay ONLINE. Its your game as much as anyone else's . >> Cheers =:-D

Now, if we have driver who brakes 50-100 meters before "the hotshoes", then IMO he should use other line than ideal raceline(when entering the turn), because there is no way faster driver can expect him to brake _THAT_ early. When I'm lapping guys I usually search for good overtaking place, but sometimes I just get shocked how early someone brakes and there's nothing I can do to avoid collision. This doesn't happen in every race, but every time to time and specially in VROC, never in leagues. I understand if the guy isn't fast and sometimes doesn't have a slightest clue where he should brake, but hey, we others can't brake the laws of physics either! What pisses me most in the VROC races is: "HE JUST HAVE TO PUSH THAT NOSE INTO MY REARTIRE IN T1!!!"-syndroma Conclution: Some of the people don't have _any_ respect towards other drivers and the ones who are totally lost in brakingzones, should stay away from onlineracing.

> To sum this up, in F3 you learn to be smooth and control > slides more precisely. I think you're mostly right, _MOST_ > of the people who are driving F1 cars don't have the skill > in the F1 level and _they would_ learn a lot with F3. This thread provoked me to enter in a couple of junior races last night and I have to say I had a blast. I jumped straight into F1 when GPL came out and have never touched the F2 & F3 cars so I was in for a bit of a suprise. The F2 car is quite nice and is probably good for mixed manufacturer races since they seem to all be evenly matched. I expected the F3 cars to be quite a bore but after I finding the limit in a few laps I realised you really have to really work on keeping your speed up in order to go fast. A single mistake can drop you out of touch with another car in rather embarassing fashion. The only downside is the races take forever. Ordinarily I like that but it does increase ones chances of getting disconnected from the server which combined with automatic servers makes for a long wait until the next race. I also discovered that the AI drivers are demon brakers in the lower classes. I got punted at Zandvoort not once but twice on the first lap while taking my customary easy approach to the first few corners when online. What are the F3 leagues, if any? - George

If you rear end someone it's all down to you. In a racing car when you drive up behind someone you are also putting pressure on them, expect them to make mistakes even if they are not new or inexperienced at the track. People make mistakes. Sometimes you will benefit from them, sometimes not. I can't cay I have seen many. One time someone was just sitting spinning on the start/finish line in the middle of the race. I've heard about people running the wrong way round a track etc, but that seems rare. Harsh. GPL is difficult. I think you just have to expect mistakes and try, yourself, to become a better online racing driver within the limits of the 'experience'. That is, it's not just a matter of being fast, or even being consistent but being able to survive the frequent first lap pile ups and other peoples misc mistakes. Anyone for giving rolling starts a try - droped flag would be start of pace lap (Naaa, thought not)? -- Suck The Goat

OK, now, this is a bit much. If you're behind someone, it's your responsibilty to stay out of his gearbox. What you seem to be saying here is, I'm faster, I brake later, so get out of my way because I'm coming through. The slowest driver in the world is not problem if he stays on the race line. You want to out brake someone, go off-line to do it, don't expect him to. All you have to do to avoid collisions is think ahead and anticipate that he will brake earlier. You're lapping him for Christ's sake, he's obviously not a demon at late braking. Of course it won't happen in leagues, because there's not likely to be a lot of less-serious racers there, they will be more predictable. To turn the tables, if you can't find a way to compensate for less experienced drivers, maybe you should stick to leagues and forget pick up races on VROC. You also seem to somehow have come to the conclusion that rear-ending someone and then having him *** at you for it means he has no respect for you, but you're perfectly justified in trashing his race. Give your head a shake. As far as I'm concerned, anyone, regardless of skill or speed, can join any race I'm in, as long as they're not a complete *** who runs laps backwards or intentionally takes out other drivers. Posts like yours go a long way towards scaring off people who would love to give it a try but are afraid they won't stack up with the competition. Once more for the record: learn how to deal with slower drivers. You're not out to set a record on every lap, you're out to win, and whoever you're racing against has to deal with them as well. I do it, other drivers do it, and you can too. Yeah, I know, *** *** ***. Zog

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> Now, if we have driver who brakes 50-100 meters before "the hotshoes", then > IMO he should use other > line than ideal raceline(when entering the turn), because there is no way > faster driver can expect him to brake _THAT_ early. When I'm lapping guys I > usually search for good overtaking place, but sometimes I just get shocked > how early someone brakes and there's nothing I can do to avoid collision. > This doesn't happen in every race, but every time to time and specially in > VROC, never in leagues. I understand if the guy isn't fast and sometimes > doesn't have a slightest clue where he should brake, but hey, we others > can't brake the laws of physics either! > What pisses me most in the VROC races is: > "HE JUST HAVE TO PUSH THAT NOSE INTO MY REARTIRE IN T1!!!"-syndroma > Conclution: Some of the people don't have _any_ respect towards other > drivers and the ones who are totally lost in brakingzones, should stay away > from onlineracing. > >DON'T LEAVE!! > >most of the drivers are very understanding and very helpful, and they > >have been there before. > >as another reply said "hold your line, the faster guys will find the > >place to pass" > >like any real driving, the guy thats hits someone in the rear is AT > >FAULT! not you.

There's three that I know of George. GPML at [link lost in import] GMSS at [link lost in import] [link lost in import] The SRM league had it's first race on Saturday, GPML has its last race for the current season next Sunday, and the GMSS is between seasons but still racing until the patch for the patch comes out. I've also got the links for all three on my site. -- Thanks Michael Horton Webmaster of http://www.bus.nait.ab.ca/staff/mikeh/gpl/ Home of the F2/F3 Hotlaps and [link lost in import] HTML for Begineers > > To sum this up, in F3 you learn to be smooth and control > > slides more precisely. I think you're mostly right, _MOST_ > > of the people who are driving F1 cars don't have the skill > > in the F1 level and _they would_ learn a lot with F3. > This thread provoked me to enter in a couple of junior races > last night and I have to say I had a blast. I jumped straight > into F1 when GPL came out and have never touched the > F2 & F3 cars so I was in for a bit of a suprise. The F2 car > is quite nice and is probably good for mixed manufacturer > races since they seem to all be evenly matched. I expected > the F3 cars to be quite a bore but after I finding the limit in > a few laps I realised you really have to really work on keeping > your speed up in order to go fast. A single mistake can > drop you out of touch with another car in rather embarassing > fashion. > The only downside is the races take forever. Ordinarily I like > that but it does increase ones chances of getting disconnected > from the server which combined with automatic servers makes > for a long wait until the next race. > I also discovered that the AI drivers are demon brakers in the > lower classes. I got punted at Zandvoort not once but twice > on the first lap while taking my customary easy approach > to the first few corners when online. > What are the F3 leagues, if any? > - George

if you approach another driver very fast, the best is to get offline on the straights an watch him for some turns - if he is very slow and breaks early: voila! go pass him! if he brakes late and his line looks like he is slower than you but not too slow, stay behind him in the next corner and make a pass out of the next turn or into the turn after that. yep: some have no respect, that's right, but what pisses ME off is some hotlapper behind me who wants to pass me immediately where he approaches me and hits me because he misjudged my racing style or my braking abilities. I stick to this: the driver punting another one from the rear is GUILTY ... well almost always ;-) Lio

>OK, now, this is a bit much. If you're behind someone, it's your responsibilty >to stay out of his gearbox. What you seem to be saying here is, I'm faster, I >brake later, so get out of my way because I'm coming through. The slowest That's not what he's saying at all! The way I understand it is that sometimes you come up to slower driver fast and you've had no time to "learn" how early or late the guy in front brakes. Then, when they approach a corner the slower car brakes unusually early, leaving the lapper no time to react ... BANG! Nobody's fault really. If the lapper had known this he'd have moved off the racing line to make a clean overtake. However, I disagree with Marko about them staying offline. The respect for other drivers grows on experience, and when these guys get faster we have more competent drivers out there. Nobody should discourage people getting into online racing ... it's such a blast! :) Hena

go alongside on the straights before the braking zones until you can judge his driving style - if he is very early on the brakes: you just passed him! if he is not, you can get back on the line ... Lio

You know. With your theory, lapper would _never_ pass the backmarker, because he should keep the distance in more than 50 meters. Maybe I should of put that backmarkers brakingzone to 100-200 meters earlier than me. When I get close to the backmarker, I usually brake some 50-100 meters earlier than my normal braking point just because I want to observe how he drives, how he brakes, how he accelerates, so that I could find safe place to overtake him, but there comes times when I do brake 50 meters earlier, but it just isn't enough, because he is braking unpredictably early in the corner, in that case, I sure am not trying to overtake him, not even trying to put pressure on him to show that I'm trying to get by, I usually show my attentions first in the straight line or when we are accelerating out of the corner because it is too dangerous in brakingzone. Still, if I do that in brakingzone, I go away from the ideal racingline and let him brake earlier if he wants to let me go by there. I still think that people should first learn track a bit before they enter one in online race. People must have difference between practicing and onlineracing just that everyone could joy races and not get frustrated because someone doesn't have a slightest idea how the track goes. What comes to rear-ending, there's a big difference where someone is charging hard to the T1 which I see as the most dangerous corner of the race, but dispite the fact that he can wreck 10 other drivers race(specially in pro races), he decides to "try his luck". There's a big difference in attitude between the two accidents. I consider myself very clean racer and I do respect other drivers _a lot_, you can download replay of my G3 short race(This is F3 racing at it's best IMO), from where you can judge my attitude in racing pretty well (1.9Mb). Watch the whole race to the finish and you see what I mean. [link lost in import] I don't see my post as scaring people away, I see it as making them practice safe racing before racing, because that's the only way to do it safely, without this, the whole online etiquette is useless because no matter how clean you are, you can't avoid accidents if someone else screws it up for you. Best way to start the clean racing is to change your attitude towards other drivers, this way you can also help yourself to finish more races(without shift-r). All of you who hesitate that can you race online races, do this: download few hotlaps from the web and look at them and consider this: Are you causing dangerous situations to this guy or can you race _with_ him in the same track knowing that he most likely will lap you eventually? Go into his car and think yourself in front of him. Don't think that "can you beat him?", that's wrong way to start onlineracing, because you won't beat him and by thinking this way, you try more than you can handle and make it worse not only for yourself, but everyone in the track. If you can race _safely_ with this guy, you can enter onlineracing and remember, you don't have to be even nearly as fast as he is to do it safely. "To finish first, you must first.....know what comes here, before entering onlinerace..."....just kidding.. ;) PS. No matter how much I learn to deal with slower drivers(and I've done that a lot), there's always some surprises I just can't expect, no one can.

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> >OK, now, this is a bit much. If you're behind someone, it's your > responsibilty > >to stay out of his gearbox. What you seem to be saying here is, I'm > faster, I > >brake later, so get out of my way because I'm coming through. The slowest > That's not what he's saying at all! The way I understand it is that > sometimes you come up to slower driver fast and you've had no time to > "learn" how early or late the guy in front brakes. Then, when they approach > a corner the slower car brakes unusually early, leaving the lapper no time > to react ... BANG! Nobody's fault really. If the lapper had known this he'd > have moved off the racing line to make a clean overtake.

IMO a good driver (as opposed to a hotlapper) should be experienced enough to expect this and take precautions. The only thing I can see that I think is reasonable to ask from even inexperienced drivers is to be aware of the rear view mirrors and do not slam the brakes when there's a car following behind. Self preservation SHOULD be enough of a motive to do this already. If a driver hasn't got enough experience to even shoot an occasional glance at the mirrors and still maintain the car I do believe (and will risk the flames :) that a bit more offline practise would be in order before joining an online race. Acquiring the necessary skill level can't take much more than 15 minutes. :D Such basic situational awareness is, again IMO, more important than being able to drive around the track when racing - especially online. Cheers, /ft and his famouse SKr .50

Hena Hakkanen kirjoitti viestiss? Maybe I didn't present that the way I should. I didn't mean they should stay away forever, they just should adapt to onlineracing by practicing a bit more and not jumping there without any clue how to race. One good way to do this is to start first from F3 cars and learn the car a bit better and then join F3 races and when he improves, then he could join F2 and F1 races too. The basic control of the car should be mastered even a bit. I think even the driver himself feels very frustrating if he is moving dangersign when at the same time, he could get more satisfaction from F3 races where he would also learn much more about the car itself and the laws of the physics. F1 is a beast, and IMO you shouldn't start hunting from the most dangerous aspect, you should first master the idea of how it's done in the first place, because otherwise you could get hurt and frustrated.

: When : I get close to the backmarker, I usually brake some 50-100 meters earlier : than my normal braking point just because I want to observe how he drives, : how he brakes, how he accelerates, so that I could find safe place to : overtake him, but there comes times when I do brake 50 meters earlier, but : it just isn't enough, because he is braking unpredictably early in the : corner, in that case, I sure am not trying to overtake him, not even trying : to put pressure on him to show that I'm trying to get by, I usually show my : attentions first in the straight line or when we are accelerating out of the : corner because it is too dangerous in brakingzone. The solutions seems pretty easy to me - if you're behind someone you're not sure about then don't take the racing line - move off line. That way you _can't_ hit them. (Well, OK, if they brake massively early and move onto the wrong line - but there's nothing you can do about that kind of driver). -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York. www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

> go alongside on the straights before the braking zones until > you can judge his driving style - if he is very early on the > brakes: you just passed him! if he is not, you can get back > on the line ... This reminds me of an amusing crash I had last night at Monza. With a slight lead over a hard charging Ferrari I came upon a slower car in the braking zone for the Parabolica. I braked quite a bit earlier and started drifting to the inside when I realized I was approaching the backmarker faster than comfort allowed. Disaster avoided I passed the backmarker rather easily and then shifted my attentions forward. Unfortunately as I started my turn-in I got rammed from behind by the backmarker I had just passed as he apparently locked his brakes up and skidded into the back of me! The second place car was so astonished at the situation he apparently 'waited' for me at the Lesmos once I got back under power. Unfortunately by that time all hell had broken loose and I never could get back up with him (nice sporting gesture though). Every pass is a gamble, most you have to give up something to gain the position. In my case I gave up entry speed to the Parabolica in order to gain the position, but once I gained it that lack of corner entry speed was the very thing that lead to the crash. My plan was to get the position under power, not under braking, online racing seldom works out to plan though. Sometimes you simply don't have time to wait behind a car to judge where it is slow and where it is fast, you are in the middle of a serious race and want to win. Other times regardless of what you do the situation doesn't work out in a nice tidy fashion. Advice like the above is easy to give but not always practical to follow. We are talking about putting a car a lap down in races that are usually less than ten laps long. That alone tells me that I don't want to be lingering behind this car for any period of time waiting for their next crash to unfold before my very eyes. Additionally, there may not be a straight for a long time to come if at all. Do you bide your time? For how long? There may not be another line to pull off on. What can you realistically do? I think the point Marko was trying to make is that we aren't all racing at Monza with nice long and wide straights you can see all the way down. At the tighter tracks or the tracks with elevation changes you can easily come up on a backmarker with such a profound difference in rate of speed that you simply don't have time to do anything other than wonder why they are going so slow. At those times you just shrug it off though and look forward to your next league race where everyone is closely matched and familiar with one another. - George

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> [SNIPPED] > I think the point Marko was trying to make is that we > aren't all racing at Monza with nice long and wide straights > you can see all the way down. At the tighter tracks or the > tracks with elevation changes you can easily come up > on a backmarker with such a profound difference in > rate of speed that you simply don't have time to do > anything other than wonder why they are going so > slow. At those times you just shrug it off though and > look forward to your next league race where everyone > is closely matched and familiar with one another.

Seems fair enough! My philosophy is that you should try to avoid hitting other cars as much as you possibly can - the ultimate sin is to run into the back of another car, and I feel really bad if I do it (even if I can't see how I could have avoided it!). Personally I'd like to see more slowpokes out there so I can practice clean overtaking moves on them! ;-) I think in my case I'm actually rather better at racing than hotlapping - I had a great online race at Spa against a lot of other faster drivers, where I started in 3rd, moved up to 1st due to the first two spinning out at various points (came through the Masta kink to be confronted by a wall of smoke due to a spinner - really scary!). All through the race I'd find that a faster driver would catch up me, try to make a move, but as I covered the inside line they'd have to back off and either lose it completely or have to work their way back to me. The key is: slow in, fast out - as long as you aren't braking *way* before the normal point - it's much harder for them to overtake you if you concentrate on getting a fast exit from each corner. (Oh, and don't let them through on the inside - make them go the long way round!). Anyway, I came second in the end: Mark Mercer barged through on the inside about 5 corners from the end of the last lap and we collided! Not sure who's fault it was, but the point is I don't believe either of us was being reckless, so it was a racing accident - no problem with that! I'm just annoyed that he stayed on the track and I went off! I think if you're being lapped you should do it a bit differently - you don't actually have to move off-line but you probably should let the faster driver through on the inside - whereas if you're fighting for position you're entitled to force the guy behind to take the long way round. I believe that in 1967 the blue flags were informational only - you weren't obliged to move over for the faster car, but then again in those days if you made more than one move to cover your position it was considered blocking (even if you weren't being lapped). I don't really see why people complain about backmarkers - when racing online I like to encounter other cars once in a while - otherwise I might as well be practising on my own!

This is a different attitude from your earlier post. Some parts sound a lot like my reply. Regarding my "theory", I said nothing about staying back 50 metres, I didn't post any numbers. I said stay out of his gearbox. It's easy to pass back markers without gluing yourself to them. I'm sure you know exactly what I mean and we're just wasting time here. You now say that you will go off the racing line to let the other driver brake earlier. This is the complete opposite of your last post, which is what pissed me off in the first place. You said: "Now, if we have driver who brakes 50-100 meters before "the hotshoes", then IMO he should use other line than ideal raceline." Make up your mind, or this whole discussion is pointless. Regarding rear-ending someone: The ONLY reason I responded to your post was your implying that people who get pissed off when you rear end them have no respect for other drivers. You chose not to address that issue at all. Ramming is ramming, on T1 or the last lap. Expect people to *** at you if you take them out because you didn't or couldn't slow down in time. I watched your whole race, and it was a good one. However it's difficult to judge how well you deal with traffic for three reasons. First, there was no traffic, just you and one other car who seemed to be an even match for you in terms of driving skill and very predictable. This is not exactly a 5 car pack heading into the Lesmos at Monza. Second, there was only one back marker in the whole race, who moved over very nicely so you and the other Ferrari could go by. Third, it's an F3 race, much slower than GP, you have a lot more time to adjust your line and braking and stay out of trouble. Please don't infer from this that I think F3 races are inferior, I don't. They can be a lot of fun and very close. From my obeservations, however, most on-line races are GP, which is what I assumed we were discussing. My mistake. I agree with you completely, it would be nice if all drivers would practice and know the braking zones before racing on-line, but in reality it's not likely to happen. My point was, learn to recognize the less experienced and compensate for them. They're not going to go away, and can actually make races much more exciting as the leaders have to deal with lapped traffic. There will always be accidents you can't avoid. Some will be the fault of other drivers and some will be your own. Just like real racing. I still don't believe you, me or anyone else should be making a judgment call as to who should/shouldn't race on-line, whether they're lost in the braking zones or not. Lord knows we could use a lot more racers on VROC. Happy racing Marko. Zog

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> You know. With your theory, lapper would _never_ pass the backmarker, > because he should keep the distance in more than 50 meters. Maybe I should > of put that backmarkers brakingzone to 100-200 meters earlier than me. When > I get close to the backmarker, I usually brake some 50-100 meters earlier > than my normal braking point just because I want to observe how he drives, > how he brakes, how he accelerates, so that I could find safe place to > overtake him, but there comes times when I do brake 50 meters earlier, but > it just isn't enough, because he is braking unpredictably early in the > corner, in that case, I sure am not trying to overtake him, not even trying > to put pressure on him to show that I'm trying to get by, I usually show my > attentions first in the straight line or when we are accelerating out of the > corner because it is too dangerous in brakingzone. Still, if I do that in > brakingzone, I go away from the ideal racingline and let him brake earlier > if he wants to let me go by there. I still think that people should first > learn track a bit before they enter one in online race. People must have > difference between practicing and onlineracing just that everyone could joy > races and not get frustrated because someone doesn't have a slightest idea > how the track goes. What comes to rear-ending, there's a big difference > where someone is charging hard to the T1 which I see as the most dangerous > corner of the race, but dispite the fact that he can wreck 10 other drivers > race(specially in pro races), he decides to "try his luck". There's a big > difference in attitude between the two accidents. > I consider myself very clean racer and I do respect other drivers _a lot_, > you can download replay of my G3 short race(This is F3 racing at it's best > IMO), from where you can judge my attitude in racing pretty well (1.9Mb). > Watch the whole race to the finish and you see what I mean. > [link lost in import] > I don't see my post as scaring people away, I see it as making them practice > safe racing before racing, because that's the only way to do it safely, > without this, the whole online etiquette is useless because no matter how > clean you are, you can't avoid accidents if someone else screws it up for > you. Best way to start the clean racing is to change your attitude towards > other drivers, this way you can also help yourself to finish more > races(without shift-r). All of you who hesitate that can you race online > races, do this: > download few hotlaps from the web and look at them and consider this: Are > you causing dangerous situations to this guy or can you race _with_ him in > the same track knowing that he most likely will lap you eventually? Go into > his car and think yourself in front of him. Don't think that "can you beat > him?", that's wrong way to start onlineracing, because you won't beat him > and by thinking this way, you try more than you can handle and make it worse > not only for yourself, but everyone in the track. If you can race _safely_ > with this guy, you can enter onlineracing and remember, you don't have to be > even nearly as fast as he is to do it safely. > "To finish first, you must first.....know what comes here, before entering > onlinerace..."....just kidding.. ;) > PS. No matter how much I learn to deal with slower drivers(and I've done > that a lot), there's always some surprises I just can't expect, no one can. > >OK, now, this is a bit much. If you're behind someone, it's your > responsibilty > >to stay out of his gearbox. What you seem to be saying here is, I'm > faster, I > >brake later, so get out of my way because I'm coming through. The slowest > >driver in the world is not problem if he stays on the race line. You want > to > >out brake someone, go off-line to do it, don't expect him to. All you have > to > >do to avoid collisions is think ahead and anticipate that he will brake > >earlier. You're lapping him for Christ's sake, he's obviously not a demon > at > >late braking. Of course it won't happen in leagues, because there's not > likely > >to be a lot of less-serious racers there, they will be more predictable. > To > >turn the tables, if you can't find a way to compensate for less experienced > >drivers, maybe you should stick to leagues and forget pick up races on > VROC. > >You also seem to somehow have come to the conclusion that rear-ending > someone > >and then having him *** at you for it means he has no respect for you, > but > >you're perfectly justified in trashing his race. Give your head a shake. > As > >far as I'm concerned, anyone, regardless of skill or speed, can join any > race > >I'm in, as long as they're not a complete *** who runs laps backwards > or > >intentionally takes out other drivers. Posts like yours go a long way > towards > >scaring off people who would love to give it a try but are afraid they > won't > >stack up with the competition. Once more for the record: learn how to > deal > >with slower drivers. You're not out to set a record on every lap, you're > out > >to win, and whoever you're racing against has to deal with them as well. I > do > >it, other drivers do it, and you can too. > >Yeah, I know, *** *** ***. > > Zog

>>OK, now, this is a bit much. If you're behind someone, it's your >>responsibilty to stay out of his gearbox. >That's not what he's saying at all! The way I understand it is that >sometimes you come up to slower driver fast and you've had no time to >"learn" how early or late the guy in front brakes. No time to learn ? You just came up on him fast, what does that tell you ? As long as someone isn't driving erratically there is NO excuse to punt him from the rear. Particularly when YOU consider yourself the superior driver. Any attempt to explain your way out of it is simple rationalizing. There are numerous races, Le Mans for example, where different speeds of cars race at the same time. Accept it as part of the challenge of racing, and accept that it's your fault when you ram somebody. Don Scurlock Vancouver,B.C.

This is the one I don't get. What do you mean by "opposited". You're saying that hotlapper can't be a good driver <G>. Most of the hotlappers have very good control for the car and they usually race in highquality leagues, which usually makes them _very_ good _race_ drivers. You are mixing two different drivers here. "Wannabefasts" and hotlappers. Almost no exception Hotlappers are clearly best _racedrivers_ there is, but "wannabefasts" are mediumfast guys, who always use Lotus, so that they could win everyrace online and are sometimes ruthless towards others, because all they think is victory. Hotlappers aren't like that, Hotlapper is perfectionist and most important thing to him is to do as perfect job as possible. Without a single driving error, without a single touch to backmarkers and real hotlapper is satisfied to his race when he is satisfied to his own performance. It doesn't always include Lotus and win of the race. Usually it includes BRM or some other sh*tbox and 3rd finishing position in public races. In those highquality leagues, like Champs, their priority is to win a race, but to win it by respecting other drivers too.

> No time to learn ? You just came up on him fast, what does > that tell you ? One of several things: a) He spun not too long ago and is getting back up to speed b) He blew the most recent corner and is now recovering c) His car is damaged and he is attempting to pull off for a Shift-R d) He is in an F2/F3 car, you are not e) He is disorientated/not familiar with the track f) I really nailed that last corner g) I'm a demon braker h) He is driving his own race I'm afraid racing isn't that cut and dried. I can think of a few places in GPL where you simply can't see a car in front of you as you make your decision where and when to brake. Additionally there are often times where GPL isn't showing you all the available information due to network latency, dropped packets, and the X front/Y rear car display algorithm. Network aside, not everyone is driving with mirrors and even some who are do not take the time to check them simply because all of their effort needs to be forward when braking for a corner. Under that scenario trying to outbrake on another line will often put you in the back of another car as they drift across lines towards the apex. You can't brake harder, you can't yank the wheel, you are simply comitted to your line. Lastly they almost had to have been driving erratically to begin with else why would they be so far behind in a short sprint race? Le Mans drivers have a good knowledge of the capabilites of their competitors both within classes and outside of them. The same cannot be said of online GPL pick-up races. For a counter example I would point you to the revoking of Hattori's CART license. I'm not advocating that new/slow GPLers not race online, but when the difference in speed becomes too great accidents are going to happen regardless. Nearly every series recognizes this basic point of racing (via steward decisions or 110% rules). Personally I think more races need to be run with full damage enabled and shift-R disabled. Give negative reenforcement a try and give that old diehard phrase 'to finish first, you must first finish' some teeth. - George

> This is the one I don't get. What do you mean by "opposited". You're saying > that hotlapper can't be a good driver <G>. Most of the hotlappers have very [snip]

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> include Lotus and win of the race. Usually it includes BRM or some other > sh*tbox and 3rd finishing position in public races. In those highquality > leagues, like Champs, their priority is to win a race, but to win it by > respecting other drivers too. > >IMO a good driver (as opposed to a hotlapper) should be experienced enough > to > >expect this and take precautions. The only thing I can see that I think is

I think you know what I meant. I could have written "pure hotlapper" of course and made it very clear. But OK, I'll play along. :) I'm sure you are aware of the fact that when driving a car you balance driving insanely fast and taking large risks against taking it a bit easier and being certain of staying on the track. Add other cars to the equation and the balancing gets even trickier. You might argue this, but I won't since I'm am certain in my belief on this point: There are drivers who can drive insanely fast hotlaps but are significantly less skilled when it comes to making a clean overtaking. In a race situation, these are the guys who will qualify in pole and then hit the first car they come up to lap. Those would be your [pure] hotlappers. Then there are racers. These guys are not churning out world record times. OTOH they flow through traffic in ways that make it seem like magic and can drive lap after lap after lap without ever being so close to the edge that they risk having an accident. Those would be your Racers. Then, of course, there are those who can do both, depending on the situation. Those would be, well, just plain depressing. :) I never said hotlappers can't be good drivers. They certainly are, otherwise they would not be able to do those hotlaps. I did say that they _might_ not be good Racers. I did not say they can't be good Racers. Enough playing with words for today? Cheers, /ft

Well maybe that would be a good solution George. Then the original poster wouldn't have finished the race, and might have learned a valuable lesson about not running into people from behind, regardless of how many hypothectical reasons you can come up with to justify it. -- Don Scurlock Vancouver,B.C.

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>> Personally I think more races need to be run with full damage >> enabled and shift-R disabled. Give negative reenforcement a >> try and give that old diehard phrase 'to finish first, you must first >> finish' some teeth. > Well maybe that would be a good solution George. Then the original > poster wouldn't have finished the race, and might have learned a > valuable lesson about not running into people from behind, regardless > of how many hypothectical reasons you can come up with to justify it.

That and/or the backmarker would not have been there in the first place having crashed out early on without the possibility of carrying on. It would be nice to see novice races populated exclusively by novices and intermediate/expert races populated by non-novices, but most nights there just aren't enough of either to go around. Neither group should be relegated to a string of two/three/four car races. Now with respect to my 'excuses' all of them are based both on my online racing experiences and observations of real life racing events so I would not qualify them as hypothetical. Can't vouch for others though. - George

No, it's the same attitude, It's matter of just how you took it or misunderstood it, read below ;) If you are going to pass him, you have to go close to him eventually, because road isn't wider than 3 cars in most of the lap and one of those 3 cars is sometimes just pure warping....In tracks like Nurburgring and Mosport you have to get close if he doesn't move away from the racing line and give you room and even then overtaking is very dangerous. Don't think about only Monza here, it's only one of the 11 tracks ;) In the situation I am _not_ near and I'm _not_ overtaking when I go away from the racingline first(you can do this only in wide tracks). I'm just showing that "here I'm coming, prepare to get lapped soon" ie. show myself in his mirrors, but if _he_ wants to let me go by right away, he can slow down a lot and allow overtaking to happen, it's _his_ choice. If I make the choice I make it later when I've studied his driving style and evaluated the safe place to overtake and then I make _my_ move to overtake(by moving away from the racingline also), but in that point I'm much closer than in the previous point. Between the two situations I'm getting closer to the backmarker all than time and between those 2 situations if he decides to give me room, he will move away from the racingline in safe place and eases the throttle. It's 100% of co-operation, if he wants to be gentleman he can give room, but he doesn't _have to_ do it, I will do it eventually. It may take a lap or 2 or even 3 and if he has very bad control to his car, it leads easily to 2-3 laps of so called "random event", when driver in front of you is sliding all over the place and you never know when he spins totally and wrecks everyone near him. In this case It can be more dangerous to wait and let me make my move, because it's very difficult for faster driver to adapt to his driving rhytm, when there is no rhytm. So both ways do work, it's just matter of evaluating which one of the options is safer and it 's almost completely up to the backmarker to make the decision. Faster guy will go by eventually by making his own move. What I'm saying is that faster guys doesn't actually make even the decision, he checks the backmarker and then he makes the move later, BUT backmarker can change that by doing things safer in safe place if the current situation requires it. The wreck I was talking about earlier occured before this whole situation, in place where I wasn't even near him and surely didn't expect to overtake him, but that he surprised me totally by braking unpredictably early, before I could of even study his driving style. This can happen already in the 2nd or 3rd curve after _I SEE_ him for the _first_ time. No, this is the one you got wrong, _I AM_ the one complaining about T1 crashes. I can't understand some people who don't have any respect to other drivers and they have to ram or take a high risk in T1. If there is 15 drivers and everyone takes risk there, I'm quite sure there will be collision in T1. T1-crashes doesn't have to be normal situation in the race, they can be avoided by changing attitudes. Sometimes the crash happens no matter how clean and careful you tried to be, but it doesn't have to happen in every single race you enter. Now this leads to it that F3 would fit better for the drivers who are suffering from unstabile racing or often ram other people in F1 races? I personally recommend F3 to everyone, even experienced ones. The replay wasn't ment to be example of how I deal the traffic. It was ment to be example of attitude which IMO is the problem in the first place(not in everyone, but in "some people"). It wasn't your mistake, I was also talking about F1 racing, actually I was talking about racing with GPL in general, all classes included. Basic "rules" are the same in all classes ;) But we can try to improve that? If we invite everyone to onlineracing in their first day with GPL, keeps these wrecks happening. IMO we should direct newbies to familiarize the car first, learn the way it works, after that they could only race in tracks where they have practiced and not jump to every single race even though that track would be totally unexplored. I think this is usually the actual problem. There is tracks running in dedicated servers, but not just the one _he_ practiced, so he goes to practice it in onlinerace, which causes a lot of accidents in form of my: "he brakes 100-200 meters earlier". I enjoy overtaking very much, thank you ;P but only when I get a _chance_ to overtake them cleanly. I don't want to be judge either, but I want to make people understand that by joining the race where you most certainly just cause accidents is not a good idea. I'm trying to encourage people to learn the track a bit more before joining the race. it is easier for us all if he is constant in his laptimes, even though they would be 10-20 second slower, but if you don't have any rhytm and don't have any idea where you should brake, IMO stay offline until you have.

There is no easy solution to this. If I'm always 200 meters behind him and never use racingline, I will never even catch him and what racing is that? Maybe I should park my car somewhere safe place in the grass everytime I see a backmarker....that's the only way to make it safer, but even then someone could ram my rear-end...But I agree that there is nothing I can do to that sort of driver. That was the point I was trying to make in the first place. No matter how good and clean driver you are, if the one in front of you causes danger just by driving his own race, there is nothing you can do to avoid collisions to happen ;)

George M. Smiley kirjoitti viestiss? ... What can I say. I agree about a 100% of your post(even the snipped one). I also would like to see more full-damage-enabled races, personally I like GPLength races with full damage, it at least should make people think about keeping it clean in stead of "how fast can I shift-r after T1"-attitude... I would also like to express my new version of the diehard phrase: "To finish first, you must first finish without shift-r" ;)

>Now, if we have driver who brakes 50-100 meters before "the hotshoes", then >IMO he should use other >line than ideal raceline(when entering the turn), because there is no way >faster driver can expect him to brake _THAT_ early. If that's someone's NORMAL braking spot, would he even KNOW that it's way earlier than yours? __ Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc If all the world's a stage, where is the audience sitting? remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

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>My philosophy is that you should try to avoid hitting other cars as much >as you possibly can - the ultimate sin is to run into the back of >another car, and I feel really bad if I do it (even if I can't see how I >could have avoided it!). >Personally I'd like to see more slowpokes out there so I can practice >clean overtaking moves on them! ;-)

When do you race? I find myself being lapped all the time...:-( Eldred __ Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc If all the world's a stage, where is the audience sitting? remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Wouldn't work ANYWAY. I remember people on TEN having MUCH trouble with pace laps... :-( Eldred __ Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc If all the world's a stage, where is the audience sitting? remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

c'mon! if you can't catch him then he is no slowpoke, right? this is no put-your-nose-in-his-gear-box or stand-back-200-metre decision thing: these are just the extremes. Lio

yes, but in this situation the backmarker should get off the line early, get off the gas and raise his hand (at least on my detail level this is visible ;-) ). one should never slow down on the racing line for that purpose! exception to the rule: if you read end someone spinning, you are not to blame ;-) I really agree with you that there are drivers out there who force their car around the track and it's very difficult to pass them - that's the difference to real racing: you will not find such drivers there, because they would all be dead after their first race ;-) I know there are many situations where you wreck someone and you could not avoid it. that's racing. it's the same for someone going back on the track after a spin and not seeing someone approaching from the back ... just bad luck. although I really appreciate to hear a 'sorry' in such a case ;-) IMHO we would have less crashes in T1 if all servers would use a wide 1x1 staggered grid like on our GGPLC-server - the standard grids let the impatient think that they can gain some places at the start. instead they just wreck half the field :-( agreed :-) totally agreed! before entering an onlinerace, you should really know the track, control your car good enough so you don't spin every second turn and please: no keyboard drivers! I happened to meet someone of this species who attracted my attention by producing lots of skid marks, smoke and doing 1:40-laps in qualifying at the glen ... Lio

> In the situation I am _not_ near and I'm _not_ overtaking when I go away > from the racingline first(you can do this only in wide tracks). I'm just > showing that "here I'm coming, prepare to get lapped soon" ie. show myself > in his mirrors, but if _he_ wants to let me go by right away, he can slow > down a lot and allow overtaking to happen, it's _his_ choice. I race motorbikes in real life. I'm still pretty slow, but one of the first tips I got from the fast guys was ALWAYS HOLD YOUR LINE. if you're passing someone you want him more than anything else to be predictable -- not to "be nice" and throttle off or move over to let you go by. if you can't find a way to go around someone, then you probably shouldn't try to take him. -- Gunnar -- '98 Super Primerbird '92 G00F2 #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo: 2 de vakreste ord p? jord: saldo i Deres fav?r

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>>Personally I think more races need to be run with full damage >>enabled and shift-R disabled. Give negative reenforcement a >>try and give that old diehard phrase 'to finish first, you must first >>finish' some teeth. >> - George >Well maybe that would be a good solution George. Then the original poster >wouldn't have finished the race, and might have learned a valuable lesson >about not running into people from behind, regardless of how many >hypothectical reasons you can come up with to justify it.

Hypothectical? Let's take an example. In Zandvoort there are a LOTS of blind corners. I'm coming around one just to notice there's a slower car ahead. Now, I don't know why he's driving slowly (recovering from a spin/shift-r or he's just plain slow). I slow down a little since I don't intentionally want to ram him from behind. I close up on him fast but I'd still have plenty of braking distance not to ram him if he'd take the corner at reasonable speed. All of sudden he hits the brakes. No time to react or slow down enough. BANG. In the heat of a race you (or at least I) cannot anticipate every move the car in front might do. Also, since it is a *race*, you have your mind set to go as fast as you can. I consider myself a reasonable GPL driver and racer. I do not go around ramming people on purpose. All I'm saying that there are situations it is unavoidable unless I'd drive at 50mph at all times. Or if the guy in front would look at his mirrors every once in a while. Hena

EldredP kirjoitti viestiss? Propably not. Now that is why there is 107% rule in RL F1. So, we GPL drivers just have to be more skilled than F1 drivers in reallife to deal with traffic. ;)

Gunnar Horrigmo kirjoitti viestiss? ... >> In the situation I am _not_ near and I'm _not_ overtaking when I go away >> from the racingline first(you can do this only in wide tracks). I'm just >> showing that "here I'm coming, prepare to get lapped soon" ie. show myself

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>> in his mirrors, but if _he_ wants to let me go by right away, he can slow >> down a lot and allow overtaking to happen, it's _his_ choice. >I race motorbikes in real life. I'm still pretty slow, but one of the >first tips I got from the fast guys was ALWAYS HOLD YOUR LINE. if >you're passing someone you want him more than anything else to be >predictable -- not to "be nice" and throttle off or move over to let >you go by. >if you can't find a way to go around someone, then you probably >shouldn't try to take him.

The point is in that situation that backmarker should not change his drivingline, backmarker should _never_ move away from the drivingline in the _brakingzone_. If he wants to give room to overtaker, he should do it _before_ lapper is slipstreaming him and also that should be done in straight line for example in WG after esses curves or after loop. In the brakingzone and in the corner he should just hold his line like you said. If backmarker wants to make it easy to lapper, one way to do it is to wait lapper to make his move and when lapper has taken another line and they are side by side, backmarker can ease throttle just a bit to make overtaking easier, he doesn't have to slam the brakes, in this case too backmarker doesn't have to change his drivingline. These things just are very difficult procedures when we are in Ring or some other track where you don't have much room or straights.

George M. Smiley kirjoitti viestiss? Yes, we need more drivers to VROC so that novices could run novice races and pro's pro-races. This sure would make it easier to fast guys, but then again.. would it still be ramming party in novice races? Best solution IMO is still to practice basic handling of the car and have good attitude and respect to other drivers and learn current track before joining it in onlinerace.

Here's F1 race, overtaking maneuvers, pressuring and more drivers and my error in the end....this could be a bit better example of overtaking in F1 ;P Watkins Glen(1.1Mb) [link lost in import]

:> The solutions seems pretty easy to me - if you're behind someone :>you're not sure about then don't take the racing line - move off line. :>That way you _can't_ hit them. (Well, OK, if they brake massively early :>and move onto the wrong line - but there's nothing you can do about :>that kind of driver). : There is no easy solution to this. If I'm always 200 meters : behind him and never use racingline, I will never even catch him and : what racing is that? If you start to fall behind the person then you can still see where they're braking and judge their driving. You also know how fast they are and how much room you should leave. If you brake off-line then you can stick behind them for a lap with little risk of hitting them until you assess what sort of driver they are and how you can best over-take them. IMHO a lot of the problems with faster drivers rear-ending slower drivers are caused by this kind of impatience. OK it's difficult because typically we have short races in GPL and you've nothing to lose by going for it and risking punting your opponent but a _real_ racing driver (IMHO) doesn't drive up to a driver they're not familiar with and then go for a "do or die" move but instead sits and observes until they find a safe way to pass. : No matter how good and clean driver you are, if the : one in front of you causes danger just by driving his own race, there is : nothing you can do to avoid collisions to happen ;) Yes - but there certainly are things you can do to REDUCE the number of collisions. I'm a pretty slow driver but there's a couple of times in online races where I've been really annoyed by someone who rear ended me (ruining their own race too) simply because they take a long bend (say the long left before parabolica) at 4-5 mph faster than me and don't lift no matter what - now I don't know _what_ I could do to get out of the way through that bit of the track anyway but... -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York. www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

A real world accident adjudicator would probably conclude that: you where going too fast for the conditions. A panel of racing experts would probably say: That's racing ! Although I enjoy discussing this, it could go on forever. Real world drivers from karts to F1 have the same problem and haven't found a solution in almost a century of trying. We won't find one either. Sorry, I'm a TNT2 user, I have no mirrors. -- Don Scurlock Vancouver,B.C.

And here's even better example, this one also includes situation where lapper can't do anything to avoid collision with backmarker. Also there's good example of how easily backmarker can let 2 drivers pass him at once just by braking a bit earlier in the right place: 3,9Mb full 17 laprace in WG. In the race I was suffering from quite unstabile setups which did wear out my tires badly in the final laps and result is not pretty to watch ;) http://www.kolumbus.fi/ken.lie/WG_f1racing.ZIP

>>Or if the guy in front would look at his mirrors every once in a while. >Sorry, I'm a TNT2 user, I have no mirrors. Well, this sort of blows your argument altogether, doesn't it? If you don't have mirrors, how can you tell there's a lapper behind you approaching fast and what measures you should take to let him pass? Or are you saying that you shouldn't need to worry about that? Geez ... either apply the mirror patch for your TNT, buy a Voodoo card or stay offline. Hena

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> >laprace in WG. In the race I was suffering from quite unstabile setups > which > >did wear out my tires badly in the final laps and result is not pretty to > >watch ;) > Huh? I was under an impression that GPL doesn't model tyre wear. Maybe you > just overheated them?

I used to get this quite often after a few ragged laps (my fault, not the setup's!) - it probably is due to overheating, but it has the same effect as tyre wear when you're trying to drive the car! The trouble is, all the little skids you make due to the overheated tyres just makes them even hotter, and if you spin ... ;-) I found that even making a slightly bad gear shift (eg. not breathing the throttle properly when changing up) could send the car into a spin, once the tyres had gone.

>laprace in WG. In the race I was suffering from quite unstabile setups which >did wear out my tires badly in the final laps and result is not pretty to >watch ;) Huh? I was under an impression that GPL doesn't model tyre wear. Maybe you just overheated them? Hena

oh please ... should all the girlie-view-mode-drivers (F10) go home too? ok, agreed: the should ;-) Lio

Hena Hakkanen kirjoitti viestiss?

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>>laprace in WG. In the race I was suffering from quite unstabile setups >which >>did wear out my tires badly in the final laps and result is not pretty to >>watch ;) >Huh? I was under an impression that GPL doesn't model tyre wear. Maybe you >just overheated them? >Hena

Yeah, sorry, that's exactly what I meant. Setups were too pushy in brakingzones all than time IMO and when I tried to push more and more all than time, they heated up and then it didn't turn at all. Today I modified those and was able to do constant high 1:04's with that Brabham all than time without that push-problem :)

As an ongoing experiment a ran a few online races last night in both F10 view and 'extreme' F10 view (set the driving view to 5 in player.ini) to see if I was any faster/any more of a hazard. First I have to say it can be very strange to switch ones driving view after nearly a year of being an***pit view type of guy. My first race at Spa was a disaster, I ran in the 'extreme' F10 view and simply couldn't keep the car on the track while going at any rate of speed. I certainly wasn't faster, I certainly was more of hazard. Often a driver would come up on me and enter that narrow rearward facing area that I could see him in, I would pull over only to put myself in the path of another car that wasn't yet in that visible region when I made the avoidance move. Oops. Fortunately, I think I forced Chris Moses off the track in one such incident so it wasn't a total loss. :-) After that race I took to practicing at Monza, half with the 'extreme' F10 view and half with the regular F10 view. I ran about twenty laps of each and after a bit of adjustment I was solidly in the low 28s. My own personal best however is 1:27.50 so I can't say I'm any faster in either of those views at the moment. Off hand I would say my driving was somewhat smoother with the external views so there may be some potential there to go faster. The best I could muster was 1:28.04, pretty good considering the short amount of time I spent practicing, but not really a time to get overly e***d about. Somewhat bolstered I went back online and ran a race at Monza. It was on the pole and got a clean start leaving the apparent T1 carnage that took places three and backwards off in the distance. I noticed pretty early that not having mirrors made my s***with the second place car a bit, well how shall I say, boring. He was there, I could hear him, but I rarely could see him, so I just went about my business until he dropped out. It might have been a more telling test though if he could have applied more pressure. Not having to glance in ones mirrors is a definite plus. In lapped traffic the forward views really seemed to pay additional dividends. The track seems a whole lot wider in the external view and one gets the feeling of having many more options when passing a backmarker. So in this case I would say I was as fast, and less of a hazard when leading. Not really a telling race though. Lastly I took to Kyalami for a quick s***in F10 view. Once again I had problems ramping up to the new view but it wasn't quite as bad as Spa. I qualified second with a 1:20.53 lap but I felt I was still poking around and not really pushing any boundaries. For reference my own personal best is a 1:19.09, but I haven't really tried hard there since the 1.1 patch came out so it may not be an entirely fair comparison . I did run some high 19s in an online race the other night in the***pit view though. I got a good start and was in a heated battle with a Brabham for the first two laps until my motor gave up shifting up to top gear down the straight. Grr, can't draw any conclusions here other than I need more practice in the external views. So to summarize, for me the external views hold a slight promise but that promise comes at an enjoyment expense. I seem to have more fun driving in the***pit view, the external views seem less 'connected'. I will say that driving all three views gave me food for thought, there were differences in driving style that may bear fruit after closer analysis. Overall, the physics of GPL and my brain interpreting those physics seem to be the limiting factor regardless of driving view. I'll soldier on with further experiments though. - George

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>>>Or if the guy in front would look at his mirrors every once in a while. >>Sorry, I'm a TNT2 user, I have no mirrors. >Well, this sort of blows your argument altogether, doesn't it? If you don't >have mirrors, how can you tell there's a lapper behind you approaching fast >and what measures you should take to let him pass? Or are you saying that >you shouldn't need to worry about that? >Geez ... either apply the mirror patch for your TNT, buy a Voodoo card or >stay offline. >Hena

A few points Hena. 1)Your being a bit of a dipstick....lighten up. 2)There is no "mirror patch". Hopefully the coming upgrade will address the problem. 3)I have NEVER raced online. The lack of mirrors, my current skill level, and some of the attitudes around here make me reluctant to try it. -- Don Scurlock Vancouver,B.C.

>>Well, this sort of blows your argument altogether, doesn't it? If you don't >>have mirrors, how can you tell there's a lapper behind you approaching fast

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>>and what measures you should take to let him pass? Or are you saying that >>you shouldn't need to worry about that? >>Geez ... either apply the mirror patch for your TNT, buy a Voodoo card or >>stay offline. >>Hena >A few points Hena. >1)Your being a bit of a dipstick....lighten up.

Okay, maybe I am being a dipstick, but ... see below Hmm, I wasn't aware of that. I though the OpenGL patch with the option to reduce mirror refresh is a workable solution. Sorry if I was mistaken. and Well, this does it. You obviously have no idea what it's like racing online, or what you've been talking about. AI cars don't brake unusually early, they don't shift-r to the middle of the road or use all the race track just to keep the under control. Humans do that. It's very different racing online and offline. You really should try online racing. The attitude is way different here in ras than it is on the track :) Hena