Rally Championship Demo thoughts

Well I had a smooth 90kb per second download, so I was able to race about 3-4times the stage in the demo. First of all, Im sorry but this won't beat GPL. The hype was not all true, I feel I've wasted my time downloading 66megs for "that". First of all, only keyboard control. Hello Europress, it's almost the year 2000. By showing us you don't care about hard-core simracers who want to try your demo in a realistic way, we will show you that we don't care neither about you guys. It's NOT the good approach to deal with us. Sure the arcade gamers will all race with keyboard, but even THEM will be disappointed when they can't use their Sidewinder for your demo. Look at other racing sims demo to look at quality. Grand Prix Legends. GP500. Those are what you should look at. I mean even Colin McRae (the demo) Rally had joystick configurations, even if no dual-axis support. Next up, no options, nothing. This goes with point #1. You load the demo, a neato looking video (but personally I feel it's a waste of time, I watch it once and won't ever re-watch it). After it's a menu with the keyboard controllers, but that's all. No graphic option, no sound option, no realism option. Now to the real bad point, the demo gameplay itself. Im sorry but this is not fun. It's plain arcade. That's NOT how you race Rally stages. You don't throw it that way, you don't jump 4-wheels off the ground each 3seconds. The game engine's physics are weak, and the excuse can't be the keyboard. I visualized myself racing the cars with a wheel, and it doesn't seem right. The track modeling is weak. I mean I've watched hours of UK rally, and nowhere I've seen roads in the woods that had 10meters on each side of hills. It's WOOD/road/WOOD. There's none of those little hills that throw the car 1meter in the air. You said you had modeled the tracks from real-life, I say you've taken the general layout and throw hills on each side of the roads so that arcade-type gamers won't be mad about crashing in trees and ending their stage in turn1. Because between you and me, head-on collision at only 50mph with a Rally car with woods will END your weekend most of the time. But there is no damage in the demo, it's just a warning. Don't tell us in the full version that you can smack the trees 5-6times a stage and flip 3times and STILL be able to continue your weekend. Btw, the sun glare is weak. When your stop it disappears, when you accelerate it grows. Hmm never thought that physics had changed since the last time I've been behind a windshield of a car. Whatever your at 3mph or 50mph, the sun glare is the same, sorry. The Co-pilot is impossible to hear since they didn't cared about a sound option. Now for the "good" points. Well there is the intro video. The sound is "ok", and I like the variety of terrain type. The framerate is incredible for my PII 266, and I like the multiple car views. But that's all, Im sorry. IMHO. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Wow Francois, maybe a bit harsh for judging a demo, I know it's not exactly the caliber of the GPL demo, but then again what other demo is? the GPL demo gave me more enjoyment and fun hours behind the wheel than many racing simulation's full release version I've bought. And remember that the demo is 66 megs because it was meant to be included on Magazine demo CD's, I think someone uploaded it to the net. One thing to keep in mind is that this is a demo and not the full release product, we don't know what options will be available, or even what options or driving model the demo is using, also you have to keep in mind that Rally Championship is not a competing product to GPL, but to the previous rally sims like Screamer2, Colin McRae Rally, RAC Rally Championship etc. All of the rally games before have been very arcadish with the exception of their own previous effort RAC Rally Championship, but even that had those terrible walls and the framerate stuttered in the rain. And yes I've bought and had fun with every new Rally sim each time hoping for a more serious Rally sim. While I do wish that they hadn't limited the controls of the demo to keyboard only, from driving the demo I can tell that there is some promise here, the handling feels pretty good, and the road sections are modeled pretty decently, and look like they are realistically long, not the short wimpy stages in CMR. I do agree with you that the road is too skinny and gets rather steep on each side of the track too quickly, but I will reserve final judgment for the release version when I can control it with my FF wheel and have the benefit of separate pedal axis to be able to throw the car around more than is now possible with the keyboard in the demo. Again I think it is misplaced to compare Rally Championship with GPL, after all no other racing sims come close to GPL in realistic feel, much less any rally sims, but from the demo I can tell that I will have good fun with the full release version. I'm definitely picking this one up when it comes out, especially since Speedvision will start broadcasting the 1999 FIA World Rally season races in November (which I'm eagerly awaiting), and I'll definitely be putting Rally Championship through it's paces after getting that Rally rush from watching the races on TV. Now I just hope that it will release here in North America at the same time that it does in the U.K. it would be a shame if only the software pirates got to play this here on this side of the pond for the next six months like what happens with most other European sims. Hoping that the full version will be what we all have been waiting for, but also ready to be disappointed from past Rally sims, in the meantime the demo has given me something to practice and look forward to, I'm reserving my judgment until then. Seeyas on the track. --John (Joao) Silva

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>Well I had a smooth 90kb per second download, so I was able to race about >3-4times the stage in the demo. First of all, Im sorry but this won't beat >GPL. The hype was not all true, I feel I've wasted my time downloading >66megs for "that". >First of all, only keyboard control. Hello Europress, it's almost the year >2000. By showing us you don't care about hard-core simracers who want to >try your demo in a realistic way, we will show you that we don't care >neither about you guys. It's NOT the good approach to deal with us. Sure >the arcade gamers will all race with keyboard, but even THEM will be >disappointed when they can't use their Sidewinder for your demo. Look at >other racing sims demo to look at quality. Grand Prix Legends. GP500. >Those are what you should look at. I mean even Colin McRae (the demo) Rally >had joystick configurations, even if no dual-axis support. >Next up, no options, nothing. This goes with point #1. You load the demo, >a neato looking video (but personally I feel it's a waste of time, I watch >it once and won't ever re-watch it). After it's a menu with the keyboard >controllers, but that's all. No graphic option, no sound option, no realism >option. >Now to the real bad point, the demo gameplay itself. Im sorry but this is >not fun. It's plain arcade. That's NOT how you race Rally stages. You >don't throw it that way, you don't jump 4-wheels off the ground each >3seconds. The game engine's physics are weak, and the excuse can't be the >keyboard. I visualized myself racing the cars with a wheel, and it doesn't >seem right. The track modeling is weak. I mean I've watched hours of UK >rally, and nowhere I've seen roads in the woods that had 10meters on each >side of hills. It's WOOD/road/WOOD. There's none of those little hills >that throw the car 1meter in the air. You said you had modeled the tracks >from real-life, I say you've taken the general layout and throw hills on >each side of the roads so that arcade-type gamers won't be mad about >crashing in trees and ending their stage in turn1. Because between you and >me, head-on collision at only 50mph with a Rally car with woods will END >your weekend most of the time. But there is no damage in the demo, it's >just a warning. Don't tell us in the full version that you can smack the >trees 5-6times a stage and flip 3times and STILL be able to continue your >weekend. >Btw, the sun glare is weak. When your stop it disappears, when you >accelerate it grows. Hmm never thought that physics had changed since the >last time I've been behind a windshield of a car. Whatever your at 3mph or >50mph, the sun glare is the same, sorry. The Co-pilot is impossible to hear >since they didn't cared about a sound option. >Now for the "good" points. Well there is the intro video. The sound is >"ok", and I like the variety of terrain type. The framerate is incredible >for my PII 266, and I like the multiple car views. But that's all, Im >sorry. >IMHO. >-- >-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> >-- May the Downforce be with you... >"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise >how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

: I do agree with you that the road is too skinny and gets rather steep on : each side of the track too quickly, but I will reserve final judgment for the Actually, his point that the roads were in effect too wide, and I would agree. Most of the British B-roads are a stone wall, trees or hedge, then a 4 metre wide road, then a hedge, trees or stone wall. If you thought driving a 1967 GP car demanded precision, a proper rally stage would radically alter your perspective. After watching in-car footage of 60's GP drivers and contemporary rally drivers (for example, in the latest Finnish rally) I find myself sucking my breath audibly every 2-3 seconds with the rally drivers. It's truly amazing, and a shame if the latest rally sim has again "dumbed down" the experience, although I can understand it from a marketing (i.e. actually selling some product) point of view. The average gamer wants a little bit of breathing space for errors while still getting their virtual rally experience. True rally fans, and a lot of us sim fans, have a lot in common with trainspotters when it comes to picking at the fine details (and the rally fans at least in Britain and North America spend a fair amount of time standing around in anoraks - I know, I'm a proud member). I'm sure I will still enjoy the game, but it won't be the ultimate rally sim for me if I can't stuff my car after a miniscule error. Stephen

Weren't you defending Europress just about 24 hours ago?? Told you you shouldn't have held your breath. This ump***th dissapointment is exactly my point.... before the release it is always said simracerds will be well caterred for while afterwards it turns out to be pure arcade. The people that market this stuff (and the magazine writers that preview it) just aren't good enough simracers to tell whether something is good or not. Might have to do something about that someday. Jan. ----

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>: I do agree with you that the road is too skinny and gets rather steep >: on each side of the track too quickly, but I will reserve final >: judgment for the >Actually, his point that the roads were in effect too wide, and I would >agree. Most of the British B-roads are a stone wall, trees or hedge, >then a 4 metre wide road, then a hedge, trees or stone wall. If you >thought driving a 1967 GP car demanded precision, a proper rally stage >would

<SNIP> Um... sorry to point this out for the millionth time. Sim fanatics don't buy enough games to make them an area worth worrying about. The game needs to appeal to the general gamer lest it end up like GPL as a great sim that was too hard for most to play. Having ULTRA-sim mode and regular is a good idea I guess but too expensive for most development houses so they go for what sells. It may not be what *you* want but it'll sell more units because of it. M

As I recall, Europress said recently that the demo would not contain their proper physics package - that is something, anyway. But I learned from the X-Car demo not to expect more performance than the demo delivered. I may now wait and see the reviews before buying. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

:> :>: I do agree with you that the road is too skinny and gets rather steep :>: on each side of the track too quickly, but I will reserve final :>: judgment for the :> :>Actually, his point that the roads were in effect too wide, and I would :>agree. Most of the British B-roads are a stone wall, trees or hedge, :>then a 4 metre wide road, then a hedge, trees or stone wall. If you :>thought driving a 1967 GP car demanded precision, a proper rally stage :>would : <SNIP> : Um... sorry to point this out for the millionth time. Sim fanatics don't : buy enough games to make them an area worth worrying about. The game : needs to appeal to the general gamer lest it end up like GPL as a great : sim that was too hard for most to play. Having ULTRA-sim mode and regular : is a good idea I guess but too expensive for most development houses so : they go for what sells. : It may not be what *you* want but it'll sell more units because of it. : M Well, in the body of my note which you snipped, I agreed that market forces make an ultra-undriveable sim unprofitable, hence the wide roads. If memory serves me, RAC Championship allowed you to choose 3 road widths, with the scenery pushing in from either side with narrower roads. I'm not sure how they did this, but perhaps they did this witht he final product. I'd be content with this compromise. Stephen

Why not charge more for a real sim game? Think of it as a custom project for a rather large group of customers. Jan. ----

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> <SNIP> > Um... sorry to point this out for the millionth time. Sim fanatics don't > buy enough games to make them an area worth worrying about. The game > needs to appeal to the general gamer lest it end up like GPL as a great > sim that was too hard for most to play. Having ULTRA-sim mode and regular > is a good idea I guess but too expensive for most development houses so > they go for what sells. > It may not be what *you* want but it'll sell more units because of it. > M

>Why not charge more for a real sim game? Think of it as a custom project for >a rather large group of customers. Not that I should condone this sort of separatism, but when I think about it, I get FAR more VFM out of a papy sim than I do any other type of game. Hell, I even go back to ICR2 from time to time... I have a general rule that I refuse to pay more than 35 pounds for a game. I would make an exception for Papy, however, as long as they continue their trend of constant improvement. I'd go up to 45 for them. Beyond that is too prohibitive for me. I guess you'd lose out on the impulse buyers, but I have no idea what sort of impact that would have. How many people actually see a pic of a car they like on a box and spend 35 quid on it? Oh, and I'm still waiting for RC to download... Cheers, Mark Reading, UK

Hmmm you would have to really do some target marketing and even get some pre-order going to help with developement cost, I agree. Kinda like commissioned art. If we're talking cost per hour of enjoyment GPL was an absolute steal for me... I think I'm vey near the 1cent (USD)/hr mark. How many people do you think buy a game because of the box art, find it way too hard (unplayable from their perspective) and don't take it back? As for the RC demo, well... it ain't as bad as some say. I'm going to reserve judgement until I play it using a wheel. Jan. ----. > ><snip> > Not that I should condone this sort of separatism, but when I think about > it, I get FAR more VFM out of a papy sim than I do any other type of game. > Hell, I even go back to ICR2 from time to time... > <snip>

Yes I agree, I too watch the Rally TV coverage even here in the U.S. although it is delayed by like 6 months, and I know exactly what you are talking about, everytime I see what those guys are able to do with those cars my mouth drops, I'm a very big rally fan and love watching 1000 Lakes and seeing Juha Kankkunen doing impossible maneuvers in the snow or even the Portuguese Rally with my crazy fellow countrymen standing in the path of the cars as if it was the running of the bulls, World Rally ranks right up there with F1 in my favorite auto sports to watch, and my admiration for the rally drivers even exceeds what I think of F1 drivers, rally drivers have the ultimate in car control. I would welcome a realistic rally sim just as much as you would, the only thing I am saying is that this is a demo, and even though it might not be as realistic as we all had hoped it would be, the demo feels fun enough to encourage me to purchase the full release, who knows maybe packed in the supposed 400 miles of the RAC rally course that is supposed to be modeled in the full release, they managed to have some sections which will give us just a small hint of what driving one of those cars at the limit through impossible courses and terrain would be like. Hopefully the sales of Rally sims are strong enough by now that one of these days a developer will take the risk of making an ultra realistic Rally sim like GPL, and not dumb it down to sell well for the average buyer for fear they might be too overwhelmed by the realism and stay away. I've played the demo already quite a bit and find myself wondering what a 4 wheel drive chassis will drive like compared to that front wheel drive one in the demo. The fact that this demo has kept my interest this long already means that I like it more than some of the other Rally sims I've bought like Sega Rally, International Rally Champ etc. (and I'm only being generous calling these sims) I'm not trying to say that Rally Championship will be the GPL of Rally sims, just that from the demo I think there's a possibility the full version will be fun, although probably not very realistic, CMR was still fun despite not being too realistic :-) Seeyas on the track. --John (Joao) Silva

The original RAQ Rally Championship actually had adjustable road width!! You could set it at a minimal setting which would approximate reality or widen it out (more road width and run-off area) for the arcaders.....let's hope they do the same with the new one. Marc. > : I do agree with you that the road is too skinny and gets rather steep on > : each side of the track too quickly, but I will reserve final judgment for the

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> Actually, his point that the roads were in effect too wide, and I would > agree. Most of the British B-roads are a stone wall, trees or hedge, then > a 4 metre wide road, then a hedge, trees or stone wall. If you thought > driving a 1967 GP car demanded precision, a proper rally stage would > radically alter your perspective. After watching in-car footage of 60's > GP drivers and contemporary rally drivers (for example, in the latest > Finnish rally) I find myself sucking my breath audibly every 2-3 seconds > with the rally drivers. It's truly amazing, and a shame if the latest > rally sim has again "dumbed down" the experience, although I can > understand it from a marketing (i.e. actually selling some product) point > of view. The average gamer wants a little bit of breathing space for > errors while still getting their virtual rally experience. True rally > fans, and a lot of us sim fans, have a lot in common with trainspotters > when it comes to picking at the fine details (and the rally fans at least > in Britain and North America spend a fair amount of time standing around > in anoraks - I know, I'm a proud member). > I'm sure I will still enjoy the game, but it won't be the ultimate rally > sim for me if I can't stuff my car after a miniscule error. > Stephen

Does anyone know if FIA WRC will be on speedvision this fall again in the US? There is no mention of it on the speedvision web site :(

Yes, according to the info another r.a.s. reader "Jay J" posted here a few months ago it looks like they will be broadcasting it on Sundays starting in November, great to hear there will be good racing to watch during the cold F1 and CART off-season. The info below was posted a few months ago and was a response to him from Speedvision, I had saved that post. Can't wait. Seeyas on the track. --John (Joao) Silva I just wanted to follow up on your inquiry regarding the WRC. Speedvision will be carrying the 1999 FIA World Rally Championships. Following is the 1999 schedule. All times Eastern and are subject to change so please check your local listings prior to air. Royal Auto Club Rally >Does anyone know if FIA WRC will be on speedvision this fall again in the >US? There is no mention of it on the speedvision web site :(