Re Alison Hines Comments - Logitech v MSFF

I think Logitech has received a bad rap for the pedals. Right out of the box they do need a bit more resistance, but they work well. After an hour or so of use you'll find they do a good job. I've replaced the springs and added pedal covers to increase the size of the pedals. Two very easy modifications that contribute mightly to the entire feel of the Logitech wheel. So the only weak link for the LWFF is the pedals, but you readily admit that the Microsoft wheel steals cpu cycles. That is not fixable with a screwdriver and $2. Seems to me that is a greater flaw in design than any commited by Logitech. Steering is only half of it, performance is the other and the LWFF comes out on top. The only area I see that Microsoft excels is in the optical components. -Andrew

Alison comes out strongly in favour of the Logitech v MSFF wheel. I think theres one of two things people need to bear in mind though: 1) The MSFF pedals are fine - I had CH Pedals and find the MSFF pedals as good. For a lot or people - especially those outside the US - having to purchase CH Pedals after spending a lot of money already on a wheel, is a significant factor. Here in NZ CH Pedals cost around $90 USD if you can find them. Add that to USD 150 for the wheel - so a big chunk extra. The MSFF wheel retails for around USD 150 too, and you're ready to go. 2) Whilst the MSFF wheel uses more cpu cycles, for me, it hasnt translated into a noticeable frame-rate hit - I still get 36fps most of the time. My system a Celeron 300A at 450mhz, soundblaster live value and voodoo3. It reminded me of the claims made by the PDPI card - from posts I saw, whilst the theory sounded convincing, people didnt seem to notice a big frame rate improvement. Real world results is what counts. Granted, for people with slower systems, the cpu usage of the MSFF wheel may become a factor. 3) I like the fact the MSFF wheel has a digital/optical device which never goes out of calibration. How long will the pots on the Logitech last? Only time will tell which wheel provides long term reliability. Anyway - just some thoughts - I havent used a Logitech wheel so readily accept that it may be better on the steering side - but steering is only half of it - if Logitech were so bent on producing a quality product - how could they let themselves put those pedals with the wheel.

I bought my MSFF about a year ago (as an all purpose replacement to my T2) and it's holding up quite well. The LWFF wasn't even available (in Canada) to do any comparisons on, then. I think the pedals are great and have had no problems with anything (so far). MS, of course, does not release a new patche each month like the Wingman team does (or at least used to). With a C400 (O/C'd to 450) & an SBLive, I'm still getting 36FPS in GPL with FF turned on (except at the start, of course) Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, of course. Randy >Alison comes out strongly in favour of the Logitech v MSFF wheel. I think >theres one of two things people need to bear in mind though: >1) The MSFF pedals are fine - I had CH Pedals and find the MSFF pedals as >good. For a lot or people - especially those outside the US - having to >purchase CH Pedals after spending a lot of money already on a wheel, is a >significant factor. Here in NZ CH Pedals cost around $90 USD if you can find

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>them. Add that to USD 150 for the wheel - so a big chunk extra. The MSFF >wheel retails for around USD 150 too, and you're ready to go. >2) Whilst the MSFF wheel uses more cpu cycles, for me, it hasnt translated >into a noticeable frame-rate hit - I still get 36fps most of the time. My >system a Celeron 300A at 450mhz, soundblaster live value and voodoo3. It >reminded me of the claims made by the PDPI card - from posts I saw, whilst >the theory sounded convincing, people didnt seem to notice a big frame rate >improvement. Real world results is what counts. Granted, for people with >slower systems, the cpu usage of the MSFF wheel may become a factor. >3) I like the fact the MSFF wheel has a digital/optical device which never >goes out of calibration. How long will the pots on the Logitech last? Only >time will tell which wheel provides long term reliability. >Anyway - just some thoughts - I havent used a Logitech wheel so readily >accept that it may be better on the steering side - but steering is only >half of it - if Logitech were so bent on producing a quality product - how >could they let themselves put those pedals with the wheel.

[snip] I second that. I was set on buying a LWFF wheel sometime this fall, probably in a month or two when my economy is back on its feet (they're still around $175 here). As it was, I came across a used MSFF for $75 which kinda settled it. Either that now, or a LWFF in three months... So far, I'm very happy. The FF does let you feel the gears a bit, or possibly more hear than feel them but they're noticeable anyway. And when reversing the movement of the wheel, it does take it a half-inch or so of movement at the rim before you get FF the other way. I always forget this the moment I head into the first corner though. The pedals are great. Well on par with my CH pedals. And as for system resources, I don't notice it at all. I have a lowly installing the MSFF. So far, my main gripe is that it is made by M$, that I'd like real shift paddles, that I want a clutch and... Well, I think that's it. Cheers, /ft

>So the only weak link for the LWFF is the pedals, but you readily admit that >the Microsoft wheel steals cpu cycles. That is not fixable with a >screwdriver and $2. Seems to me that is a greater flaw in design than any >commited by Logitech. Steering is only half of it, performance is the other >and the LWFF comes out on top. The only area I see that Microsoft excels is >in the optical components. >-Andrew I've been using a MSFF wheel for more than 2months now,and with my AMD K6-2/450 and Vodoo3 3000,I get a rock solid 36 pfs online with all graphics except people and cars only in the mirrors. So loosing some cpu cycles hasn't been a issue with me. Joel Willstein

Alison says that the MSFF uses more CPU cycles, but I'm sure that Randy said on this NG that it was the Logitech that used 4,000,000 or something. It was one of the reasons I bought the MSFF (along with the pedals and the price). I do notice an fps hit on my C400/Voodoo2 but it's worth living with just for the extra realism. Doesn't make me any faster though... Half on the subject, anyone have the details for making the MSFF split-axis? Is it possible? -- Tony Whitley Remove M A P S to reply

> Alison says that the MSFF uses more CPU cycles, but I'm sure that Randy said > on this NG that it was the Logitech that used 4,000,000 or something. It > was one of the reasons I bought the MSFF (along with the pedals and the > price). I do notice an fps hit on my C400/Voodoo2 but it's worth living with > just for the extra realism. Doesn't make me any faster though... As someone else suggested today in this NG, maybe it is dependand on the soundcard? I do not know exactly how MIDI works, but I could see some soundcards placing more load on the processor than others - as with other interface cards. Hmm, is it possible to use it non-split-axis? :) I've been using it as split axis since I got it. Never seen any setting for it though, in fact I never considered it. I just checked it was possible before I bought it and that was it. Cheers, /ft

I'm quite sure you're wrong here...I read several times that the MS uses much more cpu cycles than the logitech... Andre

> I've been using it as split axis since I got it. Never seen any setting for it > though, in fact I never considered it. I just checked it was possible before I > bought it and that was it. You have to explicitly set it up as Split axis. Using the profile editor, create a new profile, and under settings, check the separate pedal axis Paul -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nortel, London Road, Harlow, Essex. CM17 9NA

> I'm quite sure you're wrong here...I read several times that the MS > uses much more cpu cycles than the logitech... Well, I wonder where those CPU cycles might be coming from then, since on my lowly P166/V2 system I did not get a noticeable framerate hit when going from gameport joystick to MSFF. As I stated in an earlier post in this thread the guy who suggested it might depend on the sound card you have and how much CPU is needed to operate its MIDI might very well be right. Cheers, /ft, who BTW has a seven years or so old SB 16 (or was it Pro? Hmm, don't even remember, but it does the job)

FWIW: This is what Randy previously stated: I've heard (though not through any official channels) that MS is working on a USB version of their FF wheel. And that would be an exceptionally Good Thing. It seems that clocking FF commands out through the MIDI lines is rather slow. These are the approximate timings I've measured on my Win95 PII-400 for issuing our force commands to three different wheels (your mileage may vary): 3,500,000 cycles - Thrustmaster Force GT (USB) 1,500,000 cycles - Microsoft Sidewinder FF wheel (MIDI/game port) 55,000 cycles - Logitech Wingman Formula Force (serial) Which translates to a 32% (!?!?!?!?!), 13.5% (!!), and 0.5% (ahhhh...) CPU hit.

Well that clears things up a bit. 32%... unbelievable! Andre

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>FWIW: This is what Randy previously stated: >I've heard (though not through any official channels) that MS is working on >a USB version of their FF wheel. And that would be an exceptionally Good >Thing. It seems that clocking FF commands out through the MIDI lines is >rather slow. These are the approximate timings I've measured on my Win95 >PII-400 for issuing our force >commands to three different wheels (your mileage may vary): >3,500,000 cycles - Thrustmaster Force GT (USB) >1,500,000 cycles - Microsoft Sidewinder FF wheel (MIDI/game port) >55,000 cycles - Logitech Wingman Formula Force (serial) >Which translates to a 32% (!?!?!?!?!), 13.5% (!!), and 0.5% (ahhhh...) CPU >hit. >> I'm quite sure you're wrong here...I read several times that the MS >> uses much more cpu cycles than the logitech... >> Andre

Yes, for a USB Thrustmaster Force GT, that truly is unbelievable. As for MSFF's 13.5%, as much as it sounds, it's surprising that in practice this never seems to become an issue. On similar systems (Cel450 in this case) there doesn't appear to be any difference in LWFF's and MSFF's performance that one could notice without conducting extensive measurements and what's IMPORTANT, I've yet to see it affect the actual gameplay, should there be such a difference. This based on comparisons made on my and my friend's computers (same CPU, vidcard, sndcard & amount of mem) using LWFF and MSFF, playing GPL, SCGT, NFSHS, Powerslide, Viper Racing and MGPRS2. I think we're lucky to have these fine FF wheels to choose from. --- Antti Markus Peteri 15 miles. your dim light shines from so far away - Soul Asylum, Promises Broken

>Alison says that the MSFF uses more CPU cycles, but I'm sure that Randy said >on this NG that it was the Logitech that used 4,000,000 or something. It >was one of the reasons I bought the MSFF (along with the pedals and the >price). I do notice an fps hit on my C400/Voodoo2 but it's worth living with >just for the extra realism. Doesn't make me any faster though... Sorry, but you are wrong, Here's Randy's post about CPU cycles: "I've heard (though not through any official channels) that MS is working on a USB version of their FF wheel. And that would be an exceptionally Good Thing. It seems that clocking FF commands out through the MIDI lines is rather slow. These are the approximate timings I've measured on my Win95 PII-400 for issuing our force commands to three different wheels (your mileage may vary): 3,500,000 cycles - Thrustmaster Force GT (USB) 1,500,000 cycles - Microsoft Sidewinder FF wheel (MIDI/game port) 55,000 cycles - Logitech Wingman Formula Force (serial) Which translates to a 32% (!?!?!?!?!), 13.5% (!!), and 0.5% (ahhhh...) CPU hit. Randy" According to this, MSFF uses MUCH more (almost 30 times as much) CPU cycles than LWFF. This post was one of the reasons I picked up LWFF ... Hena

I'd better read the posts more carefully in future! Anyway, I'm happy with the MSFF, although I haven't tried the Logitech so I don't know about that. I experimented yesterday and found that I seem to be stuck at 34fps whether I have 12 opponents (what I usually have) or 5. Something's funny somewhere... Tony "slowpoke" Whitley (Hey! I once saw 1.06(.9999) round WG!) Please remove 'SPAM' to reply

Nope, I don't remember the exact figure, but: Best: LWFF middle: MSFF worst: Thrustmaster soemthing Jens On Fri, 3 Sep 1999 09:45:31 +0100, "Tony Whitley" >Alison says that the MSFF uses more CPU cycles, but I'm sure that Randy said >on this NG that it was the Logitech that used 4,000,000 or something. It <snip> --------------------------------------------- Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address