If you don't understand stock car racing or road racing move to Canada! :) <G>

Hi, Reading all of these posts debating NASCAR/F1, I realized how lucky I am to live here in Canada! Up here we get all of the F1/CART races and a vast majority (if not all) of the NASCAR races! (with my current cable package I would have to pay a bit more for TBS, then I think I would get all of the nascar races) We also have a good local racing program here in Nova Scotia, IMO. It seems that some people like both NASCAR/F1 (If they are like me!) Just to prove it I'll tell you how the past 36 hours have gone for me! :) Friday Night: - Went to local short track (5-10 mins from house) to watch hobby stock 100/street stock races. Saturday Morning (8:00) - Watched F1 qualifying at Spa (gained more appreciation for Elu Rouge! any I didn't gain from GPL anyway!) Saturday Afternoon (4:30) - Went to see International Prostock Challenge Serise (IPCS) race at Scotia Speedworld. (40 mins from house) A really good new racing serise IMO! (A joint Canada/US serise between a track here in Nova Scotia and Oxford Maine) Has anyone from Maine gone to the Oxford races? What do you think of the serise this year? Sunday Morning (just after 12:00) - Got home from IPCS race a couple of hours earlier, but had to wait until I was sure the Bristol race was over before stopping to tape and watching the race! (a sort of self imposed media blackout!) I finished watching the race at 4:00AM... I am a DE fan, nuff' said! :) Sunday Morning (9:00AM) - I sware I woke up just before 9:00 and the start of the F1 race! And I didn't even set my alarm clock! :) Turned on the TV to catch the parade lap for the F1 race and watched it all. I like both NASCAR/F1 for different reasons. I like NASCAR because of the close racing competition. I enjoy F1 because it involves a lot of strategy. Some of the races with McLaren/Ferrari battle have been fun to watch just to see what each pit crew does. (San Marino comes to mind immediatly) Pit stops are really crutial strategically in F1 because you USUALLY don't have caution laps to bunch up the field like in NASCAR/CART. So to conclude my essay, Canada is a land of racing contrasts! :) Just thought I would post my opinion on the whole NASCAR/F1 thing, John

Quick!! Let's move to Canada! The lucky B******************ds! :-) > Hi, > Reading all of these posts debating NASCAR/F1, I realized how lucky I > am to live here in Canada! Up here we get all of the F1/CART races and a > vast majority (if not all) of the NASCAR races! (with my current cable > package I would have to pay a bit more for TBS, then I think I would get > all of the nascar races) <...SNIPPPPPPPPPEEEEDDD!> -- Rob Swindells 3rd equal in Goldline Bearing FFord Championship (18 Points); 9 points behind Championship Leader (as of round 4 of 6) "If you're a great driver, you will get through. It's not harder than any time before." ~Martin Brundle "If we could do this every week, we would be more consistent..." ~Bryan Robson (I think)

<Benny Parsons> Wow. </benny parsons> I wish I could get F1 races, unfortunately my cable doesn't get Fox Sports or Speedvision (thanks Time Warner of Canonsburg!).

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> Hi, > Reading all of these posts debating NASCAR/F1, I realized how lucky I > am to live here in Canada! Up here we get all of the F1/CART races and a > vast majority (if not all) of the NASCAR races! (with my current cable > package I would have to pay a bit more for TBS, then I think I would get > all of the nascar races) We also have a good local racing program here > in Nova Scotia, IMO. It seems that some people like both NASCAR/F1 (If > they are like me!) Just to prove it I'll tell you how the past 36 hours > have gone for me! :) > Friday Night: > - Went to local short track (5-10 mins from house) to watch hobby stock > 100/street stock races. > Saturday Morning (8:00) > - Watched F1 qualifying at Spa (gained more appreciation for Elu Rouge! > any I didn't gain from GPL anyway!) > Saturday Afternoon (4:30) > - Went to see International Prostock Challenge Serise (IPCS) race at > Scotia Speedworld. (40 mins from house) A really good new racing serise > IMO! (A joint Canada/US serise between a track here in Nova Scotia and > Oxford Maine) Has anyone from Maine gone to the Oxford races? What do > you think of the serise this year? > Sunday Morning (just after 12:00) > - Got home from IPCS race a couple of hours earlier, but had to wait > until I was sure the Bristol race was over before stopping to tape and > watching the race! (a sort of self imposed media blackout!) I finished > watching the race at 4:00AM... I am a DE fan, nuff' said! :) > Sunday Morning (9:00AM) > - I sware I woke up just before 9:00 and the start of the F1 race! And I > didn't even set my alarm clock! :) Turned on the TV to catch the parade > lap for the F1 race and watched it all. > I like both NASCAR/F1 for different reasons. I like NASCAR because of > the close racing competition. I enjoy F1 because it involves a lot of > strategy. Some of the races with McLaren/Ferrari battle have been fun to > watch just to see what each pit crew does. (San Marino comes to mind > immediatly) Pit stops are really crutial strategically in F1 because you > USUALLY don't have caution laps to bunch up the field like in > NASCAR/CART. > So to conclude my essay, Canada is a land of racing contrasts! :) > Just thought I would post my opinion on the whole NASCAR/F1 thing, > John

My sentiments exactly Rob... Jan. ----

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> Quick!! Let's move to Canada! The lucky B******************ds! :-) > > Hi, > <snip>

I get all the races here in Texas. Just finished watching the replay of the NASCAR race about an hour ago. Now im watching a Desert Race on Speedvision. Saw the F1 race from Spa (Hakkinin was a bit of a cry baby today....didnt even go to the podium). Last night (reason i missed live NASCAR race) I was at the local short track watching Pro-Trucks, Pro-Stocks, and Hobby Stocks. The trucks ran a 100 lapper and that was a great race...only 2 cautions the whole race and about 13 lead changes among 5 drivers. o id have to say that we in the States have some great Racing too. Especially now that i have Time Warner and Speedvision (there is a god!!!) Chris

NASCAR ruins racing here in the U.S. as far as I'm concerned. It hogs the TV broadcasts and makes it impossible for F1 to make a dent in the U.S. market. F1 is infinitely superior in every way IMO. David G Fisher

The last time I looked up the word race it mentioned something about.... oh.. I don't know.... umm.... passing.... and let's see.... ummm.... competition.... To use the words F1 and racing on the same page is being far too generous. It doesn't dent the US market because it is BORING. It amazes me that the same people who will trash stock car racing for being dull (cars going in circle and all that) are just riveted by cars taking the motorsport equivalent of a Sunday drive in the country. No one passes in F1... if a driver loses the car even just a bit it is history and time to dig the thing out of the dirt.... And these are supposed to be the best drivers in the world? Please.... These guys couldn't qualify for the street stock feature at my local track.... Not that we would let them in... speaking different languages and all... The Mocker

In my dictionary I read words like 'fairness', 'not a contact sport' and 'bot right and left turns'..... Nascar (and any other form of oval-racing) is boring if the drivers would commit themselves to the ruls of being sportsmanlike. They are passing so much and so easily that a passing manouvre isn't exciting anymore. The only cause that oval-racing is popular is because of the spectacular crashes, many of which are caused by dangerous driving (at least in Nascar). I must admit that F1 is boring, actually it is not a sport, it is a parade that has as sole purpose generating money for mr. Ecclestones pocket. But there are really exciting racing series that show how racing is meant, for instance the road-circuit races in CART, the BTCC (except the dagerous driving part...), American lemans series etc. And of course there are a few good oval races, too: the world championships cycling on the (oval) track... greetings, hgrm

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> > NASCAR ruins racing here in the U.S. as far as I'm concerned. It hogs the > TV > > broadcasts and makes it impossible for F1 to make a dent in the U.S. > market. > > F1 is infinitely superior in every way IMO. > > David G Fisher > The last time I looked up the word race it mentioned something about.... > oh.. I don't know.... umm.... passing.... and let's see.... ummm.... > competition.... To use the words F1 and racing on the same page is being far > too generous. It doesn't dent the US market because it is BORING. It amazes > me that the same people who will trash stock car racing for being dull (cars > going in circle and all that) are just riveted by cars taking the motorsport > equivalent of a Sunday drive in the country. No one passes in F1... if a > driver loses the car even just a bit it is history and time to dig the thing > out of the dirt.... And these are supposed to be the best drivers in the > world? Please.... These guys couldn't qualify for the street stock feature > at my local track.... Not that we would let them in... speaking different > languages and all... > The Mocker

---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Han Monsees Ornstein Laboratorium kamer 028 tel: 030-2532328 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message is sent using 100% recycled electrons. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

And but of course, those street stock guys could easily whoop those Euro guys, they just don't feel like it cause they got to go huntin' tomarrow. JB > > NASCAR ruins racing here in the U.S. as far as I'm concerned. It hogs the

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> TV > > broadcasts and makes it impossible for F1 to make a dent in the U.S. > market. > > F1 is infinitely superior in every way IMO. > > David G Fisher > The last time I looked up the word race it mentioned something about.... > oh.. I don't know.... umm.... passing.... and let's see.... ummm.... > competition.... To use the words F1 and racing on the same page is being

far > too generous. It doesn't dent the US market because it is BORING. It amazes > me that the same people who will trash stock car racing for being dull (cars > going in circle and all that) are just riveted by cars taking the motorsport > equivalent of a Sunday drive in the country. No one passes in F1... if a > driver loses the car even just a bit it is history and time to dig the thing > out of the dirt.... And these are supposed to be the best drivers in the > world? Please.... These guys couldn't qualify for the street stock feature > at my local track.... Not that we would let them in... speaking different > languages and all... > The Mocker

Hmmm!..... I watched the race and Mika WAS on the podium, maybe you went to the fridge for a beer. Last night (reason i missed live NASCAR race) I was at the Sounds like one of those online GPL F3 Grand Prix races :) Coot

> NASCAR ruins racing here in the U.S. as far as I'm concerned. It hogs the TV > broadcasts and makes it impossible for F1 to make a dent in the U.S. market. > F1 is infinitely superior in every way IMO. > David G Fisher Back that one up, David:-) There's a world of difference to being a race-fan, and a F1 fan. F1 fans over here wear sunglasses moulded into their hair, drive used, imported BMW 3-series with huge wheels, carry 2 14-year old gum-chewing girls in the back seat, and listen to Ayla at 150+ db. Please tell me you're not one of them! I enjoy racing when it's racing. A NASCAR race can be dull, an F1 race can be dull. I don't get to watch any of them enough, but I enjoyed some club racing at our local track yesterday, and it was brilliant. Watching two Catherham Super 7s fight like mad for 20 laps sure beats the hell out of a procession, no matter how much money wallow in their wake! Now how's that for trolling...<g> Matt -- --------------------------------- Matthew Birger Knutsen The Art of Legends; http://www.gpl.electra.no Cheek Racing Cars; http://www.cheekracing.electra.no

>I must admit that F1 is boring, actually it is not a sport, it is a parade >that has as sole purpose generating money for mr. Ecclestones pocket. maybe some f1 GP are boring, but it IS a sport: only real drivers can compete in f1, not losers as the ones who race in cart series:) as above: the average CART driver would be unable even to qualify in f1 GPs, think ok Mike Andretti for instance, while every decent f1 driver can win in CART, think of Mansell, Zanardi, Teo Fabi( who never did anything good in f1), Fittipaldi ( who raced in CART nearly 20 years after leaving f1 for beeing too old), Mario Andretti, Guerrero (a real loser in f1) and many others. the only good driver from cart to f1 has been J.Villeneuve, but he won f1 championship by sheer luck anyway:)) and Eau Rouge proves how skilled he is:)) the BTCC (except the dagerous yes, for handycapped drivers unable to steer left & right!!:)) bye Franz xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Quos Jupiter vult perdere,dementat prius.

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>greetings, >hgrm >> > NASCAR ruins racing here in the U.S. as far as I'm concerned. It hogs the >> TV >> > broadcasts and makes it impossible for F1 to make a dent in the U.S. >> market. >> > F1 is infinitely superior in every way IMO. >> > David G Fisher >> The last time I looked up the word race it mentioned something about.... >> oh.. I don't know.... umm.... passing.... and let's see.... ummm.... >> competition.... To use the words F1 and racing on the same page is being far >> too generous. It doesn't dent the US market because it is BORING. It amazes >> me that the same people who will trash stock car racing for being dull (cars >> going in circle and all that) are just riveted by cars taking the motorsport >> equivalent of a Sunday drive in the country. No one passes in F1... if a >> driver loses the car even just a bit it is history and time to dig the thing >> out of the dirt.... And these are supposed to be the best drivers in the >> world? Please.... These guys couldn't qualify for the street stock feature >> at my local track.... Not that we would let them in... speaking different >> languages and all... >> The Mocker >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Han Monsees >Ornstein Laboratorium kamer 028 >tel: 030-2532328 >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >This message is sent using 100% recycled electrons. >----------------------------------------------------------------------------

You need to trade-up dictionaries - race means a contest of speed and does not necessarily include passing. A Trabant v's a Top Fuel dragster is a race by anyone's definition but I think passing wouldn't exist. Do me a favour - save you above text and re-read it when you leave high school. Shudder at what a narrow-minded, xenophobic outlook you once had. Cheers! John

Hakkinen was on the podium, even if a little bit angry with his team mate... -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Home-page : http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7917 Il sito di ISF1mod : http://www.blissett.com/isf1/index.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------

F1 ruins racing there in Europe as far as I'm concerned. It hogs the TV broadcasts and makes it impossible for NASCAR to make a dent in the European market. NASCAR is infinitely superior in every way IMO.

>NASCAR is infinitely superior in every way IMO. Technologically superior? A school bus with a paint job isn't exactly high tech. Cheers! John

Sorry die-hard Nascar Fans but John's reply below gave me such a vision of buses going around the tracks that we have to give him a two thumbs up! Good One John. I liked it! I needed a little light humor to make me smile this morn'.. Cheers Thom_j. "O" P.S. Yes I'm from the US & I guess a so called yank. Guilty as charged..lol

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> >NASCAR is infinitely superior in every way IMO. > Technologically superior? A school bus with a paint job isn't exactly > high tech. > Cheers! > John

OK now for my dictionary lesson. Xenophobic: being afraid of things alien or unknown. Not the case in this instance John. Perhaps the humor... or should I say humour.... of the talking different languages joke was lost on you... I had envisioned as much, but I took that chance anyway.... The fact remains that most F1 drivers are horribly overrated. They demonstrate a complete lack of skill when faced with situations like loss of traction or ill handling cars. The only portion of an F1 event that is remotely interesting is the start. Where one waits to see which driver, while applying too much throttle, will send their car sideways into the pack. Or which driver will take the outside line, not surrender at wheel up and careen widely into the cars on the inside line. Then the rest of the "race" is a parade. A contest of wills, but not on the part of the drivers, but the fans who must endure it. The Mocker

>Sorry die-hard Nascar Fans but John's reply below gave me such >a vision of buses going around the tracks that we have to give him >a two thumbs up! Good One John. I liked it! I needed a little light >humor to make me smile this morn'.. Cheers Thom_j. >"O" P.S. Yes I'm from the US & I guess a so called yank. Guilty >as charged..lol I should point out two things... a) It _was_ a joke - I don't want 200 chevy pickups at my door full of guys in dungarees armed wih pitchforks (yes, that was a joke too!). b) The school bus is a r.a.s. oldie, borrowed from Marc Nelson whjo first coined it over on Compuserve's SPRTSIMS to wind up the NASCAR fans there - credit where it's due! Cheers! John

As I said, trade-up dictionaries. Xenophobic means a fear of foreigners or things foreign, and the "speaking different languages" qualifies you. As you demonstrate a complete lack of knowledge about what it is they are doing. Listen to Vileneuve, Zanardi, Mansell etc talk about the chasm of a difference in how an Indycar lets go compared to an F1 car. Look at Zanardi in an ill-handling car - he is hopeless with his background in CART whereas Ralf Schumacher is at the other end of the grid. No, I give up - when did that last happen that a driver lost control at the start and careered into the pack? Never? (Spa '98 doesn't count since that was even after T1). Cheers! John

Hehehe Nice one John :) -- Ian Parker UKGPL League http://start.at/greenflag -- > >NASCAR is infinitely superior in every way IMO. > Technologically superior? A school bus with a paint job isn't exactly > high tech. > Cheers! > John

Hey John; a) I got the joke & sorry no pick-up nor pitchforks here!! ;O) b) Whether you are/were the originator or not it was a "hoot." Geez I'm starting to talk like'em' now {a hoot}... Well "Gollie" Goober where's Gomer. Sorry all I had to have some fun too you know.. All constructive "flames" welcome. Dere's a pardox fer ya! Cheers Thom_j.

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> >Sorry die-hard Nascar Fans but John's reply below gave me such > >a vision of buses going around the tracks that we have to give him > >a two thumbs up! Good One John. I liked it! I needed a little light > >humor to make me smile this morn'.. Cheers Thom_j. > >"O" P.S. Yes I'm from the US & I guess a so called yank. Guilty > >as charged..lol > I should point out two things... > a) It _was_ a joke - I don't want 200 chevy pickups at my door full of > guys in dungarees armed wih pitchforks (yes, that was a joke too!). > b) The school bus is a r.a.s. oldie, borrowed from Marc Nelson whjo > first coined it over on Compuserve's SPRTSIMS to wind up the NASCAR > fans there - credit where it's due! > Cheers! > John

I have to look up my record books for this, but I can remember vagualy that Graham Hill and Jim Clark, both English F1 drivers, went to the states and drove indycar races? As far as I can remember Clark won allmost in his first try, only let down by mechanical problems just before the finish, and winning the indy the next year? Someone help me out here please with the facts, but stating that f1 drivers are not the world's best drivers is quite something... at least f1 drivers know how to use the brakes, how to pass safely, how to trailbrake and how to drive the perfect line... Things that are, if I understand all the comments in these threads right, not as important in Nascar racing as they are in F1 racing... Andre

I'm curious to see how Nascar drivers would take Eau Rouge in an F1 car... I don't think many of them would come alive out of their wrecks... Ok, ok, Villeneuve showed us again last weekend that he has some problems with Eau Rouge too, but then again, he's not from Europe... That last bit was my humble attempt at a little bit of humour. I didn't succeed, I know. Andre

Uhh... allmost every race at VROC? :) Andre

Why would he be mad at his teammate? DC outdrove him Sunday, plain and simple... The first lap 'meeting' didn't seem to damage either car. Eldred Eldred __ Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea... remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Foreign means alien, you stooge. In many languages the word foreign and alien are the same. But we digress. Obviously you missed the joke.... AGAIN.... Let me clue you in.... I'm an American... you know the drill... we think everyone should speak the same language.... we want to walk around Europe in Hawaaian shirts and Bahama shorts, with black socks... and mkae fin of the local food... and drink Evian water.... So naturally I went with the "why can't all these foreigners speak English" line... Totally lost on you.. I know it was subtle.... but sheesh.... are you from the UK? That might explain you lack of subtlety..... (Here we go again....) And I stand by my statement. CART, F1, and most of the IRL have a lack of skill when it comes to saving a car that is close to the edge of control. The only road race guys, with the exception of rally drivers who are very good at saving a car, are the touring car drivers.. now those guys can really drive.... Finally... about the F1 not having crashes at the start.... I think you would call them shunts... you know when the cars come together in a heap..... usually at the beginning of a race when five guys all try for the same spot.... I knwo you seen it... Could I tell you which race this year had that type of start... No.. But we have already established I don;t watch boring racing.... The Mocker....

Thought it was more like a brick with wheels stuck on each corner John :o)) some americans are just so one eyed its unbelievable...... Paul Alesi/even i could drive one of those CART cars :))) >NASCAR is infinitely superior in every way IMO. Technologically superior? A school bus with a paint job isn't exactly high tech. Cheers! John

Yo David! 29 Aug 99 14:39: David G Fisher -> All: 'If you don't understand stock car racing or road racing move to Can' DF> NASCAR ruins racing here in the U.S. as far as I'm concerned. It hogs DF> the TV broadcasts and makes it impossible for F1 to make a dent in the DF> U.S. market. F1 is infinitely superior in every way IMO. It's just the opposite here in Europe :))) It's almost impossible to see Nascar or Cart race here. Eurosport shows only about 10 races in a year. All you can see is that f*cking F1, where you can't see any competiton. WZA

Hmmm, so when those aliens came down at Roswell you figured a bunch of Frenchies had popped over from Quebec to pay a visit? "We" may digress, but only one of us is wrong (and ramming his foot farther down his throat with each succesive post!). "Your". Did you know that Mansell & Warwick are ex-F1, not to mention Rickard Rydell (an open-wheeler beside Villeneuve over in Japanese F3), Winkelhock (ex-F1) etc. There is no "touring car" driver, it's just where people happen to be at this stage of their career. Where did they learn these talents? Watch Schuey powersliding his Ferrari around the twists of Argentina, then listen to Zanardi tell you that F1 cars are really nervous and you can't do that sort of thing. And the answer to my question is.....? Q.E.D. Cheers! John

> Yo David! > It's just the opposite here in Europe :))) It's almost impossible to see Nascar > or Cart race here. Eurosport shows only about 10 races in a year. All you can Excuse me? AFAIK Eurosport airs all CART races, most of them live. Nascar? Don't much care for ... Hena -- Best regards, Hena H?kk?nen Remove NOSPAM to email me!

Typos have killed me again. I don't think further discussion is possible. As an ardent supporter of the event known as F1 racing you are simply following the party line, defending your chosen favorite as any fan would. I feel that I have tried to raise valid concerns as to the skill level of these drivers, which you have attempted to refute. I remain unconvinced. The fact that former touring car drivers have raced F1 or vice versa, and they had been able to control the car in that class, I feel strengthens my argument. Why could they control one type of car and not another? I know the power to weight ratio is much higher in an F1 car, but with the much larger *** and wings on those cars they should be at LEAST as easy to control. In the few times I have tried to watch F1 racing I have not seen that. What I have seen, the mad dash to first corner, followed by the "follow the leader" style of racing has not interested me, or many others I might add. But that is all I want to say about this topic. The event known as F1 will continue, and we will even have one here in the States soon. Will a hundred thousand people show up for this event, most likely. Can even half of them name one quarter of the drivers in the field, probably not. But it will be a great event I'm sure. At least until the World League of American football eclipses soccer as the worlds favorite sport. The Mocker .

Granted the technology and the drivers' salaries are superior in F1, but sadly the actual racing often isn't. NASCAR of course is generally in the 1960's technology wise (albeit a little more advanced in the areas of aerodynamics and dampers). Given this, if there are enough properly placed caution periods at a track with more than one racing groove, NASCAR can put on a good show/race. CART rides the middle ground in that it has a fairly high level of technology and rules that generate close racing (full course yellows). Maybe the reason that F1 isn't very big in the USA is that there are no American teams or drivers. What would happen if Penske/Gurney/Matsushita put an American F1 team together with drivers like Tony Stewart and Jeff Gordon? Americans might actually watch F1 just to see how "their" team is doing. Here in Canada, F1 is popular due to the presence of Jacques Villeneuve, but even if he wasn't there, the memory of his father Gilles Villeneuve would keep most people tuning in every 2 weeks. Wayne Hutchison > NASCAR ruins racing here in the U.S. as far as I'm concerned. It hogs the TV > broadcasts and makes it impossible for F1 to make a dent in the U.S. market.

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> F1 is infinitely superior in every way IMO. > David G Fisher > > Hi, > > Reading all of these posts debating NASCAR/F1, I realized how lucky

I > > am to live here in Canada! Up here we get all of the F1/CART races and a > > vast majority (if not all) of the NASCAR races!

That's what I thought you were doing. It was subtle. That's just SUCH utter bullsh*t. Have you even begun to consider the differences between the actual vehicles being driven??? What do CART, IRL and F1 cars have in common? Very stiff suspensions, very high downforce . . . I'll leave it to some more technically-inclined RAS'er to educate you on this, but even I saw a serious hole in your knee-jerk reaction. A hole as big as the sun is hot. [snip] mocked. --DK

I remember that ;-) Btw, there is really School bus racing in the US on those short tracks. Well up here we have Ski-doo oval racing (Gilles Villeneuve was the best driver for that ever), so we aren't really better than down there ;) -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

He's a Villeneuve, like his Father. He can't accept to go slower. For him it's always at the limit, whatever car he drives. That's why he was mad to finish the Spa race. He would had prefered to push the car to the limit all race long and not finish than to what he did, lift a little so that they could finish back in 15th. He was really mad btw in interviews after the race :) . He's the only F1 driver who doesn't lift in Eau Rouge these days IIRC. His father would be proud. Hehe, he's a Qubecer ;-) -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I grew up watching races at a small oval. I like almost all forms of auto racing. Seems like those who are only exposed to road courses never like anything else! Canada???? Try California!! Only thing we don't have is ice racing!!! We consider that a plus....but you opinion may vary! buzard

Umm ok yea Clark and Hill won at Indy and yes they were both from F1. But have you ever considered the fact that Nelson Piquet (an F1 driver) never even came close to winning Indy. Emmo and Jaques and Zanardi are others like Hill and Clark, theyre good no matter what they drive. But in the case of guys like Schumacher and Hakkanin...they prolly havent a clue what to do in a CART car other than the fact they have a vauge idea how the areodynamics work on it. SO....saying F1 drivers are better that CART drivers is bullsh*t and you all know it. The fact is if u put them both in equal cars (ie. a PRODUCTION MODEL Ford Taurus, Pontiac Firebird, Renault Laguna, Audi A4....etc) theyre gonna drive them at about the same rate. Theyre almost equally matched in that case. CART guys are good in CART cars and F1 guys are good in F1 cars. Add a few NASCAR guys in there youll have 3 types of drivers equally matched in equal cars. None are better than others...just better at the praticular type of racing they do. Chris

Ok i take that back...i did see him on the podium when i watched the race in replay. Guess i got caught on that one <g> Chris

<snip> Good point! I remember the swap when they put Colin McRae in a Jordan F1 and Martin Brundle in a rally car, they both were fast in the "wrong" cars, but Mr. Brundle had trouble keeping the car the right side up...:) IMO, the rally drivers are the ones who'll adapt to other race cars the best, I mean, they are probably the craziest people on the earth anyway....! :-) Matt -- --------------------------------- Matthew Birger Knutsen The Art of Legends; http://www.gpl.electra.no Cheek Racing Cars; http://www.cheekracing.electra.no

I think Coulthard was supposed to help Hakkinen in getting the WC. So, he was expected to let Mika gain the greatest advantage on Irvine, 5 points instead of 1, especially because on Sunday it was supposed that Schumacher would have come back in Monza. Now the situation is quite different and Irvine has very small chances to win the championship. Anyway, it was the same reason for Salo let Irvine pass him. -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Home-page : http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7917 Il sito di ISF1mod : http://www.blissett.com/isf1/index.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------

Eurosport covers all the CART races, plus highlights from IRL, LM, and I think also NASCAR -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Home-page : http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7917 Il sito di ISF1mod : http://www.blissett.com/isf1/index.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------

Nope... there are no team orders at McLaren yet. Mika was whining because he at first felt DC had been a bit unfair at the start, not because DC won. He's since apologised for the comments and said DC was 100% right to do what he did. In any case... MS isn't coming back for at least another month. M

Only when he has no chance of winning the WC himself - last Sunday (and now) he still has a chance and has the full support of the team to race Hakkinen. Not true - he was supposed to go and try to win the rac. Cheers! John

A proposition isn't valid simply because you make it - to say that F1 drivers lack the skill of car control is such a bizarre assertion that it requires a lot of backing up, none of which has been apparent so far. You're not supposed to be convinced - you are making wild assertions therefore the onus of proof is on you. Er, what? It's not former TC drivers that have raced in F1, its former F1 drivers that have raced in TC. In any case, the drivers were perfectly capable of controlling either type of car. I know the power to weight ratio is much Why? Any driver who has ever made such a transition from F1 to another formulae has pointed out the much wider tolerances afforded by Indycars, Touring Cars, GT cars or whatever. In F1 because of the level of competition and the way the rules and innovations have forced the cars to be developed, the cars are constantly on a knife edge if you want to run quickly. When the car loses control it happens incredibly quickly, so if a driver in an F1 car is sliding a car around you can be sure that it takes extreme talent to keep it all together. However, what you should also remember is that when you are sliding a car around you are losing time - the car is slower, you're burning up your tyres and losing acceleration. It takes more skill to drive at that speed and NOT slide the car. I won't be holding my breath! Cheers! John

Are you living in a cave? Nascar has the highest tv ratings of any type of auto racing in the US. All the networks are competing for the major races. If you've bothered to just tune into any Winston Cup event,you will see every single seat filled. Bristol had more than 140,000 fans showed up,and they're planning on adding more seats for next year. While here in New York,F1 is carried by Fox Sports Network,that usually shows the race tape delayed. And the Newspaper tv listings doesn't even list the race half the time. More than once after spending considerable time finding out when the race will be on,it was bumped in favor of another sporting event. If you think that Cart and the IRL have low tv ratings,F1s is even worse. Joel Willstein

Do you actually think either would not dominate if they came to CART? Look at any driver that has moved from a test program with a F1 team or actually driven F1 and they have been competitive. Zanardi was a mediocore F1 driver ( and still is) and dominated CART. Montoya was a TEST driver in F! and is the best rookie (if not one of the best ever) in a Champ Car. I dont think there is any doubt that if Schuey or Mika came to Cart they would be extremely competitive if they were with the right team, as would a handful of other drivers currently running in F1 ??????????????? and? your point? There is a limit on how well a vehicle can perform. I am sure many drivers could drive a production car to its limits. Driving a F1 car, Champ Car, or even a Nascar to its limits is a totally different proposition. Maybe. Look at guys like Tony Stewart and Jeff Gordon, they would be fast no matter what you put them in. I wonder if Mika and those guys could drive sprint cars? Probably.

Team orders were very clear in McLaren from Melbourne 98, and after Zeltewg 99 (but this time DC didn't ruin MH's race) :-)) IMHO he wants to come back when there will be no hope for Irvine to win the championship, so he'll be able to race without team orders. -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Home-page : http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7917 Il sito di ISF1mod : http://www.blissett.com/isf1/index.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------

There were _no_ team orders at McLaren during the Melbourne '98 race, and F1 hasn't raced at Zeltweg since 1964. Except for that, perfect! ;-) Cheers! John

Oh, come on, think about what you are saying. Surely you are joking right. Though I don't see any smileys. Touring car drivers are better than F1 drivers?? Let's be logical about this shall we. I don't know what Touring car drivers get paid, but I would imagine that F1 drivers probably get paid at least 5 times the amount that a Touring car driver receives - remember F1 is a global business whilst Touring cars takes place in the UK. So why, if it's obvious that they are the best drivers around, aren't F1 teams offering them truck loads of cash to come and drive in F1. I mean, surely the F1 personell can see this, or are you claiming to be the only enlightened one. I'm sure that every Touring car driver's dream would be to race in F1 given the chance, so don't tell me that they are still racing Touring cars because they prefer it. -- Peter Ives

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> Oh, come on, think about what you are saying. Surely you are joking > right. Though I don't see any smileys. Touring car drivers are better > than F1 drivers?? Let's be logical about this shall we. I don't know > what Touring car drivers get paid, but I would imagine that F1 drivers > probably get paid at least 5 times the amount that a Touring car driver > receives - remember F1 is a global business whilst Touring cars takes > place in the UK. So why, if it's obvious that they are the best drivers > around, aren't F1 teams offering them truck loads of cash to come and > drive in F1. I mean, surely the F1 personell can see this, or are you > claiming to be the only enlightened one. > I'm sure that every Touring car driver's dream would be to race in F1 > given the chance, so don't tell me that they are still racing Touring > cars because they prefer it.

First off a small correction. Theres swedish, german, australian and probably a few more touring car series in the world. F1 drivers sure get paid more. But I think that there are two kinds of drivers. Those who go for wealth and fame, and those who go for a kind of racing they enjoy. I can clearly see how the latter kind would go to touring cars, rallycross or other kinds of racing and stay with them - even if they could move on to formula cars - just since that's the kind of racing they want to do. Add to that the politics of F1 and you have a lot of really good drivers who for some reason don't get to drive, while relatively bad drivers end up in the ***pit. I am totally convinced that a lot of the very best drivers are outside of the formula car circus. Yes, I'm telling you these guys are still racing touring cars since they prefer it. :) My Buck O'two, /ft

Ok this wasnt my arguement at all. I have no doubt that they COULD dominate with the right car and team but it hasnt been proven (Montoya is just an amazing talent). If he were in an F1 car he would probably be one of the best within 2 years. However it would be the same for Schumacher in CART. It would take him some time (in his case probably only about 5 races) to become dominent like Montoya. My point is simply that they could all do it. I didnt mention the other forms of racing (GT, Touring Car, Rally, etc) because they werent part of the arguement. They could drive an equal car just about as well. I dont doubt it but again its a case of getting used to it. Which even for those guys, would be VERY hard to do. Anyone who has ever driven a car on dirt and asphalt (and im among them...i drove a mini sprint on dirt and a TQ midget on asphalt) know how hard going from the grip of pavement to the near absense of grip on dirt is. Chris

>>Team orders were very clear in McLaren from Melbourne 98, and after >>Zeltewg 99 (but this time DC didn't ruin MH's race) :-)) >There were _no_ team orders at McLaren during the Melbourne '98 race, That doesn't explain why DC let MH pass after the useless pitstop of the 98 WC. If the crew made a mistake, it wasn't David's fault, so why he had to throw away a win ? Well the circuit was called Ostrreichring, but it was in the town of Zeltweg till 1987, and still it is there, but they changed the name to Spielberg, and the circuit is A-1 Ring because of local politics At least, that is what was written on Italian press on this two facts. -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Home-page : http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7917 Il sito di ISF1mod : http://www.blissett.com/isf1/index.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------

On Fri, 03 Sep 1999 02:29:05 +0200, Fredrik Th?rnell >First off a small correction. Theres swedish, german, australian and probably >a few more touring car series in the world. In Italy also there is a touring car series. -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Home-page : http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7917 Il sito di ISF1mod : http://www.blissett.com/isf1/index.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------

>>Team orders were very clear in McLaren from Melbourne 98, and after >>Zeltewg 99 (but this time DC didn't ruin MH's race) :-)) >There were _no_ team orders at McLaren during the Melbourne '98 race, True. This is a bit low, don't you think? Yes, they changed the name of the track from Zeltweg to ?sterreichring to A1-Ring and changed the track somewhat, but A1-Ring still is in Zeltweg (actually in Spielberg, but AFAIK Spielberg is part of Zeltweg). Hena

Now if only you wouldn't try to combine all the forms! I went to the CART race in Toronto, and one of the support races was a CASCAR race. Stockers and street courses do not mix. (I didn't watch because it was during the CART autograph session, but the course was yellow for most of the race I think, with one lengthy red.) :-) Jonathan Bishop Remove "nospam" to reply

Maybe if he was on the right team. In F1, from the front of the grid to the back is largely determined by the team. There are exceptions, but if Montoya wasnt in a Mclaren, Ferrari, Jordan, or next year a Ford or Williams, he wouldnt stand a chance. I would bet it would be less. Schumacher is already beating the best of the best in inferior equipment. Put him in one of Gannassi's cars and he would dominate to at least the same extent as Montoya. I would think the similarities of driving a 1000hp F1 car on grooved tires and driving a 1000hp sprint car on dirt would be similiar.

Because he and Mika made an agreement that whoever reached T1 in the lead would be allowed to win (i.e. the other McLaren driver wouldn't challenge him). Although Mika fell to second due to the team's error in calling him in, David felt that their agreement still stood and that Mika shouldn't lose because of the team's error (if Mika made the error it's different). Being "gentlemanly". It may be semantics, but that location has had three F1 tracks - originally Zeltweg for one race, then changed to the Osterreichring and now to the A1-Ring. Sorry if I was being pedantic :-) Cheers! John

HAHAHAHAHHAHA You really think a TC driver would turn down a F1 ride making minimum 2-3 M a year for a TC ride making $100K to 500K a year. Most of those guys would be in F1 in a sec if they could. ????????? ??????? Do you live on a different planet?

Yeah, given the 'politics' in F1, I wouldn't have been surprized if DC was ordered to let Mika win. I would have disappointed, but not surprized... :-( Whatever happened to "may the best driver win"? Eldred __ Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto GPL.GAMESTATS.COM/VROC If all the world's a stage, where is the audience sitting? remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

I think it depends upon what the team consider to be the best choice between a fair fight between team mates, and the world championship, especially when there is also a driver from another team that can still win it (es. Williams in 1981 and 1986, WC Piquet and Prost) -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Home-page : http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7917 Il sito di ISF1mod : http://www.blissett.com/isf1/index.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, what I should have said was F1 is global whereas Touring cars is generally restricted to a single country. Sure, this does happen in the lesser F1 teams who, due to financial considerations, bring in a driver who comes with a financial package as a result of sponsorship, etc. However, with the bigger teams, there's no reason to overlook a really talented driver, although I can't actually remember an instance where a 'complete unknown', in F1 terms, is brought in out of nowhere. I think generally, what they tend to do is to take them on as a test driver. I think that's how Wirtz got his chance with Benetton. I don't doubt it. There's no way that all those 22 drivers in F1 are the best there is. Though I hope that, as in all sports, the cream generally does rise to the top. I'll take your word for it. I was only surmising that every driver, given the chance would love to drive an F1 car. -- Peter Ives

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> >First off a small correction. Theres swedish, german, australian and probably > >a few more touring car series in the world. > >F1 drivers sure get paid more. But I think that there are two kinds of > >drivers. Those who go for wealth and fame, and those who go for a kind of > >racing they enjoy. I can clearly see how the latter kind would go to touring > >cars, rallycross or other kinds of racing and stay with them - even if they > >could move on to formula cars - just since that's the kind of racing they want > >to do. > HAHAHAHAHHAHA > You really think a TC driver would turn down a F1 ride making minimum > 2-3 M a year for a TC ride making $100K to 500K a year.

As can be seen by anyone with the ability to read, yes I do. Not everyone views their bank balance as the sole point of their existence. We could argue the issue of how many percent of the TC drivers who would be willing to switch over if given the opportunity until kingdom come and not get anywhere. Most, many, some, few... Doesn't matter, as long as not ALL would. I don't think all would, and I in fact doesn't think most would either. Either way, I've made my point. What point are you trying to make? What part was it that was hard to understand? Again, I can't see what part was hard to get. The trickiest word being 'convinced' I think that's a sentence most ppl should be able to grasp. Well, that depends. I live on planet Earth, orbiting the star Sol. From your responses I take it you don't. What is your location? And how did you tap into USEnet? Somebody, get on the phone to Goonhilly, Cape Canaveral, Woomera and Jodrell bank. We've made extraterrestrial contact! :D Cheers, /ft