GPL becoming even more 'legend' now that Spa has been kicked by Bernie :(

What's next ? Do we have to loose every single historic GP ???? Look at GPL, and how the tracks looked!! So why does Silverstone look like the Hungaroring, which no one wanted to race on in the first place....nd everyone keeps complaining about every year... Bring back those GREAT GPL tracks, man !!! Save F1 from becoming a very silly form of racing....please... To those who think I'm either silly or stupid, just play GPL and see for yourself !! Hmm... The Ring -- gone Zandvoort -- gone (but maybe replacing Spa) Mexico -- gone Kyalami -- gone Mosport -- gone Le Mans -- gone Rouen -- gone The Glen -- gone Silverstone -- changed A LOT Only Monza and Monaco are still recognisable..... Oh Man!!! DOES GPL become a game of GOOD MEMORIES or not ?? Please Papyrus, make us a game with all the other great tracks....we are going to need it :( Bart ------------------------- An eternity is very, very long - especially towards the end!

What do mean with 'Spa has been kicked by Bernie'? I didn't get that! Does it mean, there is a discussion about Spa being too dangerous? Now, that would be very sad, if Spa would get removed from F1! Just because Jaques tries the same stunts every year... :-) But seriously, you're right, it's a pity that some tracks aren't used any more. On the other hand, many of them would really be far too dangerous for today's F1. Just imagine the Ring with an 800hp rocket..., or the old Woodcote corner... But some tracks should be replaced by better ones. What comes to my mind is Hungaroring, Magny Cours (only thanks to rain this year's GP was not as boring as in the last years), Barcelona,... Zandy would be great, but not instead of Spa. Peter Vienna, Austria

On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 19:27:38 +0200, "Bart-W. van Lith" >What's next ? Huh? What do you mean with 'kicked by Bernie'? As far as I know Spa will stay on the GP calendar and the 'modifications' (in fact it was shortened beause drivers refused to race there anymore due to safety reasons and wasn't used therefore between 1970 and 1983) were already in place in the pre-Bernie era - not that he has much influence in track layout anyway. --Tel

It's the tobacco ban not the track being to dangerous. > What do mean with 'Spa has been kicked by Bernie'? I didn't get that! Does > it mean, there is a discussion about Spa being too dangerous? Now, that > would be very sad, if Spa would get removed from F1! Just because Jaques > tries the same stunts every year... :-) > But seriously, you're right, it's a pity that some tracks aren't used any > more. On the other hand, many of them would really be far too dangerous for > today's F1. > Just imagine the Ring with an 800hp rocket..., or the old Woodcote corner... > But some tracks should be replaced by better ones. What comes to my mind is

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> Hungaroring, Magny Cours (only thanks to rain this year's GP was not as > boring as in the last years), Barcelona,... > Zandy would be great, but not instead of Spa. > Peter > Vienna, Austria > > What's next ? > > Do we have to loose every single historic GP ???? > > Look at GPL, and how the tracks looked!! So why does Silverstone look > > like the Hungaroring, which no one wanted to race on in the first > > place....nd everyone keeps complaining about every year... > > Bring back those GREAT GPL tracks, man !!! Save F1 from becoming a very > > silly form of racing....please... > > To those who think I'm either silly or stupid, just play GPL and see for > > yourself !! > > Hmm... > > The Ring -- gone > > Zandvoort -- gone (but maybe replacing Spa) > > Mexico -- gone > > Kyalami -- gone > > Mosport -- gone > > Le Mans -- gone > > Rouen -- gone > > The Glen -- gone > > Silverstone -- changed A LOT > > Only Monza and Monaco are still recognisable..... > > Oh Man!!! DOES GPL become a game of GOOD MEMORIES or not ?? > > Please Papyrus, make us a game with all the other great tracks....we are > > going to need it :( > > Bart > > ------------------------- > > An eternity is very, very long - especially towards the end!

Bernie has influence in to many things, including track lauout.

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>On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 19:27:38 +0200, "Bart-W. van Lith" >>What's next ? >Huh? What do you mean with 'kicked by Bernie'? As far as I know Spa >will stay on the GP calendar and the 'modifications' (in fact it was >shortened beause drivers refused to race there anymore due to safety >reasons and wasn't used therefore between 1970 and 1983) were already >in place in the pre-Bernie era - not that he has much influence in >track layout anyway. >--Tel

> Ive always known it and now this proves it...Bernie has RUINED F1 racing. You might give old Bernie a break on this one, and go after the Belgian government instead. They, like so many governments around the world these days, believe that the public's just too weak-brained to resist immediately rushing to the nearest smoke shop and destroying our lungs if we see those flashy cigarette ads (on race cars, in this instance). But then we DID elect them, so maybe they've got a point.... Anyway, they want to ban all tobacco advertising and the tobacco companies won't pony up the sponsorship dollars if they're not going to get TV exposure, thus the dilemma. This is an ongoing fight between the tobacco companies and various governments, and all motor racing (not just F1) just got caught in the crossfire. Whatever else you think about him, you can bet Bernie didn't start this one and dearly wishes it would just go away. Cheers, Steve B.

From www.itv-f1.com: SPA MAY BE LEFT OUT OF F1 CALENDAR Early reports say the authorities failed to come to a conclusion in a two-hour meeting Saturday with Formula One ringmaster Bernie Ecclestone... ...Teams have said they are not willing to race at the circuit if the tobacco ban - which became law in January - remains in place. --- Antti Markus Peteri 15 miles. your dim light shines from so far away - Soul Asylum, Promises Broken

Ive always known it and now this proves it...Bernie has RUINED F1 racing. I hold very little interrest in it anymore. I was a big F1 fan in the late 80s early 90s but i LOVE the 60s and 70s era GP racing. There was so much innovation in design and so many great drivers that it was much more competitive. The F1 of today has become Bernie Ecclestone's version of Disney World. All hes concerned about is making himself rich in the process of ruining F1. He did get the USGP back but come on....that track at Indy is a far cry from Watkins Glen or even the Detroit street circuit. And in response to the drives thinking things unsafe...CART runs 240+ at Michigan and they dont think its "unsafe". Dangerous yes....but they dont cry and moan about it the way F1 does. The drivers dont seem to mind it as much as they did in the 70s (good god were those guys crybabies sometimes...i like those guys and i say that). But the developers and the FIA complains about saftey like racing is something thats safe to do. The cant accept that racing is going to be dangerous no matter what. Its an inherent risk of the sport. Frankly i respect any person who is able to face that day in and day out to be a racecar driver. Anyways thuse ends my long rant that u may or may not agree with. Chris

This same thing happened last year, I think it's just political bargaining by Bernie to keep the Tabacco advertising in Spa despite Belgium's attempt to ban it, as well as threats to give him better leverage in the negotiations for fees between the Spa organizers and the FIA/FOCA. But I do have to say, part of what makes Formula 1 such a love for me is the tradition of running on legendary tracks like Spa, Monza, Monaco etc, if Bernie ever drops Spa in favor of crappy tracks like Hungary just because of the Tabacco advertizing, the *magic* of Formula 1 will be gone and fans like me will quit watching. Spa, Monaco and Monza are my favorite races of the year exactly because of the great history behind these great tracks. Hoping Bernie realizes F1 wouldn't half as special without Spa despite his negotiations threats. Seeyas on the track. --John (Joao) Silva

The only reason Spa has been dropped from the 2000 calender is because of the Belgium ban of Tobacco advertising. Not because it's too dangerous, or because Bernie doesn't like it. It's just no longer feasable for a sport the relies of Fag-Money SOOO much to race somewhere where it can't be promoted. If dangerous tracks were being dropped, then Canada, Monaco...Spa has acres of run off. Doug >Ive always known it and now this proves it...Bernie has RUINED F1 racing. I >hold very little interrest in it anymore. I was a big F1 fan in the late 80s >early 90s but i LOVE the 60s and 70s era GP racing. There was so much >innovation in design and so many great drivers that it was much more >competitive. The F1 of today has become Bernie Ecclestone's version of Disney >World. All hes concerned about is making himself rich in the process of >ruining F1. He did get the USGP back but come on....that track at Indy is a >far cry from Watkins Glen or even the Detroit street circuit. >And in response to the drives thinking things unsafe...CART runs 240+ at >Michigan and they dont think its "unsafe". Dangerous yes....but they dont cry >and moan about it the way F1 does. The drivers dont seem to mind it as much as >they did in the 70s (good god were those guys crybabies sometimes...i like >those guys and i say that). But the developers and the FIA complains about >saftey like racing is something thats safe to do. The cant accept that racing >is going to be dangerous no matter what. Its an inherent risk of the sport. >Frankly i respect any person who is able to face that day in and day out to be >a racecar driver. >Anyways thuse ends my long rant that u may or may not agree with. >Chris

Once again that all is certainly not Ecclestone's idea nor are any of the regulation changes in recent years. You may thank Mosley (or Balestre) and his lackeys for that. Wether it's okay how he's making himself rich the way he distributes tv rights is certainly debatable but than again that's at least not hampering racing in any way. Of course its dangerous, as we all could see a couple of times this year. Fortunately it's not as dangerous as it was about 20 years ago, don't know about you but frankly I don't follow the sport to see 1 or 2 drivers dead at the end of the season. Also I'm wondering how that is related to track layout modifications at all. As far as I can see CARTs do not run on 10 miles public road courses either, in fact most of the tracks they run on these days are even shorter than what is used in F1 and have been modified almost yearly. I.e. if you wish you can thank them for what have been done to the Glen (like destroying the back straight in 92). And no matter what, even the current Spa layout is still one of the worlds best race tracks as are many other traditional F1 circuits as well. That's no contest. --Tel

Bart, you have neatly listed all the reasons why I (and a lot of my contemporaries) gave up on "modern" F1 back in the mid-to-late 1980s. The one race that I always watched, however, was the Belgian GP, at Spa. It now looks as if I can kiss Formula One goodbye for good. (sigh) BK -----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==---------- http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World! ------== Over 73,000 Newsgroups - Including Dedicated Binaries Servers ==-----

It's to do with tobacco advertising, not safety. > What do mean with 'Spa has been kicked by Bernie'? I didn't get that! Does > it mean, there is a discussion about Spa being too dangerous? Now, that > would be very sad, if Spa would get removed from F1! Just because Jaques > tries the same stunts every year... :-) > But seriously, you're right, it's a pity that some tracks aren't used any > more. On the other hand, many of them would really be far too dangerous for > today's F1. > Just imagine the Ring with an 800hp rocket..., or the old Woodcote corner... > But some tracks should be replaced by better ones. What comes to my mind is

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> Hungaroring, Magny Cours (only thanks to rain this year's GP was not as > boring as in the last years), Barcelona,... > Zandy would be great, but not instead of Spa. > Peter > Vienna, Austria > > What's next ? > > Do we have to loose every single historic GP ???? > > Look at GPL, and how the tracks looked!! So why does Silverstone look > > like the Hungaroring, which no one wanted to race on in the first > > place....nd everyone keeps complaining about every year... > > Bring back those GREAT GPL tracks, man !!! Save F1 from becoming a very > > silly form of racing....please... > > To those who think I'm either silly or stupid, just play GPL and see for > > yourself !! > > Hmm... > > The Ring -- gone > > Zandvoort -- gone (but maybe replacing Spa) > > Mexico -- gone > > Kyalami -- gone > > Mosport -- gone > > Le Mans -- gone > > Rouen -- gone > > The Glen -- gone > > Silverstone -- changed A LOT > > Only Monza and Monaco are still recognisable..... > > Oh Man!!! DOES GPL become a game of GOOD MEMORIES or not ?? > > Please Papyrus, make us a game with all the other great tracks....we are > > going to need it :( > > Bart > > ------------------------- > > An eternity is very, very long - especially towards the end!

-----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==---------- http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World! ------== Over 73,000 Newsgroups - Including Dedicated Binaries Servers ==-----

It's nothing to do with the track....it is about cigarette advertising.

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> Bernie has influence in to many things, including track lauout. > >On Sat, 28 Aug 1999 19:27:38 +0200, "Bart-W. van Lith" > >>What's next ? > >Huh? What do you mean with 'kicked by Bernie'? As far as I know Spa > >will stay on the GP calendar and the 'modifications' (in fact it was > >shortened beause drivers refused to race there anymore due to safety > >reasons and wasn't used therefore between 1970 and 1983) were already > >in place in the pre-Bernie era - not that he has much influence in > >track layout anyway. > >--Tel

-----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==---------- http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World! ------== Over 73,000 Newsgroups - Including Dedicated Binaries Servers ==-----

<snip> Yeah, but did you see sunday's race. Even on this great circuit there was no overtaking, not even any attempted overtaking. It was just one long borathon. About halfway through I found myself concentrating on other things whilst keeping one eye on the race in case there was any e***ment, which infortunately didn't materialise. I'm starting to look forward more to CART racing, even though unfortunately I'm unable to see it live, but am able to watch it on tuesday nights on channel 5 here in the UK. -- Peter Ives

First of all, Formula 1 is silly. It's too silly. It's embarrassing that they call it Formula 1. It's even more embarrassing that Lauda and Prost are involved. And Mika and David and Frank and a hundred others. I'm sure they've imagined working in another field and it breaks their hearts. Where do they draw the line? When do they leave? Where would they find a race? It's not that Bernie wouldn't make a profit without the tobacco ads, it's that he can make more with them. So... MONEY FIRST - RACING SECOND! Remember that. It's the true Formula 1 spirit. Honest to god. MONEY FIRST - RACING SECOND! Is what Formula 1 is about. MONEY FIRST - RACING SECOND! Is the pinnacle of motor sports in the new millennium. MONEY FIRST - RACING SECOND! Is why all of these "racers" hang around such a silly sport. MONEY FIRST - RACING SECOND! Is what makes GPL more fun to watch. MONEY FIRST - RACING SECOND! Buncha spineless pussies. Won't even stand up for their heritage. I'll see you all at the clubs. More racing spirit in a single 125cc combustion chamber than there is in all of Faux 1. -- Mark Jeangerard www.soundchaserweb.com New Mexico USA

The difference is that 240+ at Michigan is relatively not that dangerous since the angle of impact is generally very shallow, so the car will tear itself to pieces along the wall and slow down gradually in the process. In any collision the speed of the initial impact is by no means the problem, the decelleration is of far more consequence. By contrast if a driver clips the kerb at the left flick prior to Eau Rouge and loses control, he has a short run off before impacting head-on. A 240mph glancing blow is trivial compared to a 160mph head-on stop. Anyone who truly believes that is living in the dim and distant past. Racing can by no means be safe, but then neither can crossing the road in the rush hour - that doesn't mean it has to be "unsafe". Safe and unsafe are not black and white on/off states, they are a sliding scale with infinite variations inbetween. I do think the racing can be much more interesting without being less safe, but we are pretty shackled by the decisions of the past - how much would it cost to reinstate Tamburello and return Imola to a less "Mickey Mouse" condition? In any case, if the price to pay for "the excellent racing of yesteryear" is that we have to return to the same mortality rates then I'll happily watch what we have now. Cheers! John

Ummm, tell that to Ernie Irvan and let's see what he has to say about that. It is very easy for a car to get sideways and hit the wall straight on at Michigan. Becuase Michigan has no tire barriers at all compared to Spa's tire barriers I would say Michigan is much more dangerous. - John

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> > The difference is that 240+ at Michigan is relatively not that > > dangerous since the angle of impact is generally very shallow, so the > > car will tear itself to pieces along the wall and slow down gradually > > in the process. In any collision the speed of the initial impact is by > Ummm, tell that to Ernie Irvan and let's see what he has to say about that. > It is very easy for a car to get sideways and hit the wall straight on at > Michigan. Becuase Michigan has no tire barriers at all compared to Spa's > tire barriers I would say Michigan is much more dangerous.

That would require a VERY tight turn radius, especially for a car out of control... How wide are those tracks really? And the inner (or outer) radius of the turns? In the TV coverage, however, it often LOOKS like a car gets sideways and impacts the wall at a near 90 degree angle. Again those extreme lenght teleoptics make trusting your eyes hard... Cheers, /ft

Well I actually have personal knowledge too. At Mosport (in real life) I got tapped in the rear on the high speed, downhill, left hand turn 4. The tap was in the left rear and I was able to catch the slide with counter lock. Unfortunately when the car scrubbed off enough speed and caught grip again it snapped to the right, did a full 180 degree spin so that I was facing the opposite way and slid sideways into the tire wall. The entrance to that corner was about 120 - 130 MPH flat out in a highly modified CRX-Si. I figure I scrubbed off enough speed that I was maybe going anywhere between 80-100 MPH when I hit the wall. The impact launched the car into the 15 ft. into the air (that is what the corner workers told me, I couldn't tell since it was 2:00A.M. and pitch black when it happened [24hr endurance race]). The car landed, impacted the armco on the left side of the track, and then landed right side up in the middle of the track. The impact was brutal and the worst thing I ever experienced in my life. I definitely think that the tire barrier on the right armco where I had my initial impact saved my life or at least allowed me to walk away with only a sore side and a sprained ankle. There is no way I would want to go through the same experience with a bare concrete wall. Tire walls decelerate the body such that it can survive great impacts. A concrete wall presents instant deceleration. I would take hitting a tire wall any day over hitting a bare concrete wall. In Ernie Irvans (NASCAR drive) case he almost died the first time he hit the wall at Michigan. His car hit the wall almost straight on. Even though it had a lot of momentum still pulling it down the track the impact into the wall was great enough to severely injure him. Just recently he hit the wall again in a Busch Grand National car. Fortunately his injuries this time were not as great but he was still knocked up pretty bad. If oval tracks utilized a tire barrier with a *** belt on the outside oval tracks could be tremendously more safe! - John

: Well I actually have personal knowledge too. At Mosport (in real life) I got : tapped in the rear on the high speed, downhill, left hand turn 4. The tap : was in the left rear and I was able to catch the slide with counter lock. : Unfortunately when the car scrubbed off enough speed and caught grip again : it snapped to the right, did a full 180 degree spin so that I was facing the : opposite way and slid sideways into the tire wall. The entrance to that Seen many similar accidents at that corner in my visits to Mosport. It's not pretty. Your guardian angel was working overtime that day! Stephen

Ouch! Good for you that you made it through such a bad one. Your idea about tires wall for Nascar, though, doesn't consider how difficult it might be to repair such a system if it was damaged early on in a race. In F1, if it happened that a tire wall was damaged so that it couldn't be repaired in short order, the marshalls could at least yellow-flag that corner. In Nascar, since they don't have partial yellows (at ovals), that'd be the end of the race, wouldn't it? Correct me if I'm wrong--maybe they DO have partial yellows. I'm not really sure. . .

david karr wrote

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>Ouch! Good for you that you made it through such a bad one. >Your idea about tires wall for Nascar, though, doesn't consider how >difficult it might be to repair such a system if it was damaged early on in >a race. In F1, if it happened that a tire wall was damaged so that it >couldn't be repaired in short order, the marshalls could at least >yellow-flag that corner. In Nascar, since they don't have partial yellows >(at ovals), that'd be the end of the race, wouldn't it? Correct me if I'm >wrong--maybe they DO have partial yellows. I'm not really sure. . . >> > > > The difference is that 240+ at Michigan is relatively not that >> > > > dangerous since the angle of impact is generally very shallow, so >the >> > > > car will tear itself to pieces along the wall and slow down >gradually >> > > > in the process. In any collision the speed of the initial impact is >by >> > > Ummm, tell that to Ernie Irvan and let's see what he has to say about >> that. >> > > It is very easy for a car to get sideways and hit the wall straight

on >> at >> > > Michigan. Becuase Michigan has no tire barriers at all compared to >Spa's >> > > tire barriers I would say Michigan is much more dangerous. >> > That would require a VERY tight turn radius, especially for a car out of >> > control... How wide are those tracks really? And the inner (or outer) >> radius >> > of the turns? >> > In the TV coverage, however, it often LOOKS like a car gets sideways and >> > impacts the wall at a near 90 degree angle. Again those extreme lenght >> > teleoptics make trusting your eyes hard... >> Well I actually have personal knowledge too. At Mosport (in real life) I >got >> tapped in the rear on the high speed, downhill, left hand turn 4. The tap >> was in the left rear and I was able to catch the slide with counter lock. >> Unfortunately when the car scrubbed off enough speed and caught grip again >> it snapped to the right, did a full 180 degree spin so that I was facing >the >> opposite way and slid sideways into the tire wall. The entrance to that >> corner was about 120 - 130 MPH flat out in a highly modified CRX-Si. I >> figure I scrubbed off enough speed that I was maybe going anywhere between

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>> 80-100 MPH when I hit the wall. The impact launched the car into the 15 >ft. >> into the air (that is what the corner workers told me, I couldn't tell >since >> it was 2:00A.M. and pitch black when it happened [24hr endurance race]). >The >> car landed, impacted the armco on the left side of the track, and then >> landed right side up in the middle of the track. The impact was brutal

and >> the worst thing I ever experienced in my life. I definitely think that the >> tire barrier on the right armco where I had my initial impact saved my >life >> or at least allowed me to walk away with only a sore side and a sprained >> ankle. There is no way I would want to go through the same experience with >a >> bare concrete wall. Tire walls decelerate the body such that it can >survive >> great impacts. A concrete wall presents instant deceleration. I would take

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>> hitting a tire wall any day over hitting a bare concrete wall. >> In Ernie Irvans (NASCAR drive) case he almost died the first time he hit >the >> wall at Michigan. His car hit the wall almost straight on. Even though it >> had a lot of momentum still pulling it down the track the impact into the >> wall was great enough to severely injure him. Just recently he hit the >wall >> again in a Busch Grand National car. Fortunately his injuries this time >were >> not as great but he was still knocked up pretty bad. If oval tracks >utilized >> a tire barrier with a *** belt on the outside oval tracks could be >> tremendously more safe! >> - John

There's an oval here in Brazil that has tire barriers If you watch CART it is the Rio one Bruno

: Yeah, but did you see sunday's race. Even on this great circuit there : was no overtaking, not even any attempted overtaking. It was just one : long borathon. About halfway through I found myself concentrating on : other things whilst keeping one eye on the race in case there was any : e***ment, which infortunately didn't materialise. Not an exciting race - there WAS overtaking but it was waaay down the field. However, in this case it certainly wasn't a problem of the modern formula - there were no cars in a position to overtake for any of the race. The fastest guys were at the front and stayed there - you just get races like that from time to time - it's happened in every era of F1. -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York. www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html